Submitted by Pain_Killer 730d ago | rumor

Microsoft Xbox One Could Possibly Feature a Powerful Discrete GPU Core Stacked Inside the APU

According to the information, the APU fused on the Xbox One is using an W2W (wafer 2 wafer) multi-module design that allows stacking of one chip on another. The first layer wafer is dedicated to the 28nm HPM Main SOC which was revealed during Hot Chip 2013 with 8 Jaguar cores and a modified Radeon HD 6670 GPU with DX11.1 and OpenGL 3.0 support. The layer beneath it is dedicated to the stacked discrete GPU and the final wafer layer is dedicated to the 32 MB of ESRAM. (Tech, Xbox One)

Is this rumor true? Rumor votes 892
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Enemy   730d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(17)
Bigpappy   730d ago | Off topic | show | Replies(1)
yewles1  +   730d ago
lol, right after the Killer Instinct 720p shocker. "Convenient" damage control overload.

theWB27  +   730d ago
Why is that a shocker? A true shocker would be if Turn10 came out and said Forza 5 would be 720p and not 1080p native 60fps like they've been touting.
memots  +   730d ago
To be honest i couldn't care less if Forza is 720p

720p vs 1080p is a weak argument, All gets upscale anyway and looks great.
tigertom53  +   730d ago
that is wrong Forza Motorsport 5 will run at 60 frames per second with a native resolution of 1080p, according to a spokesperson for Turn 10 Studios.
modesign  +   730d ago
Gt6 still looks better
InTheZoneAC  +   729d ago
still can't take a "sim" seriously when you have all the lap records being held by AWD conversions....yeah how realistic is that?
Amazingmrbrock  +   729d ago
@InTheZoneAC its not a simulation. Its almost a simulation. The tracks are smoothed out for easier driving and the cars are all made to handle slightly better than reality.
P0werVR  +   729d ago
Once again there is NO dGPU!

If so, wait for Microsoft or more credible journalism. Not this sad excuse!
SilentNegotiator  +   729d ago
"Why is that a shocker?"

Because it's the 8th generation. The least impressive form of 2.5D games (small environment fighters) should be 1080p by now.


Wow, you seriously don't understand what an "if" situation is, do you?
#3.1.7 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(3) | Report
malokevi  +   729d ago

Tech junkies are basically convinced that there is a dGPU that is part of MS' NDA with AMD, that we will hear about on the 29th... and their logic seems a lot more credible than what passes for "logic" around here.

Check out the comments on that page.
indysurfn  +   729d ago
All don't get upscaled if it is NATIVE 1080p Which is when there is better quality. 540p does, 720p does but 1080p does not. Kinda like have digital zoom in a camera instead of optical zoom. One looks worse than the other. If the output is 1080p you would not need to scale to 1080p again that would not make sense.
glennco  +   729d ago
Launch titles are always somewhat less than stellar. I am so sick of 12yo PS fanboys trolling every single xbox article like crazy religious people.
StoutBEER  +   729d ago
EXVirtual  +   729d ago
Whoa, wait. KI runs at 720p 60 fps? I missed that!
#3.3 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
GiantEnemyCrab  +   729d ago | Well said
I got hands on at PAX and WOW was that game gorgeous and played like a dream! I'm a big fan of the original KI and I have to say the developers went above and beyond with this re-make.
#3.3.1 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(16) | Disagree(15) | Report
Bolts  +   729d ago
Are you shitting me? A fighting game can't break 1080p? Seriously, back to the drawing board Microfail!
whoyouwit04  +   729d ago | Well said
And how many games on PS4 is 1080p? fewr then xbox one last I checked.
Sonysexual  +   729d ago
All games on the PS4 are 1080p with the exception of BF4.

For the Xbox ONE, DR3, KI, and BF4 aren't 1080p. I also expect a downgrade for Forza.
Foxgod  +   729d ago | Well said
Give me break, not a single game on the ps4 is 1080p + 60 fps.
#3.4.3 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(15) | Disagree(17) | Report
kB0  +   729d ago

No mention of frame rates in either convo, stop jumping the gun and read fool.
timotim  +   729d ago
Right, because every game on PS4 is 1080
Jockamo  +   729d ago
Wait so no one answered the question. Which PS4 games are 1080p w/ 60fps?
BABYLEG  +   729d ago
Aint no one gon answer it?

I wanna know too. And post links
grimmweisse  +   729d ago
Resogun, 60fps and 1080p.
Kumatan  +   729d ago
So grimm provides a game that is 60fps and 1080p, and then gets a disagree stating a fact. Even with evidence people will still deny facts. Sad really...

If you disagree, back it up with a counter argument at least.
glennco  +   729d ago
Launch title... idiot
BuLLDoG909  +   729d ago
The guy who made up this false info, has been trolling for months on his blog with, quite frankly delusional blog posts only fit for comedic reasons.

You should actually go to the guys blog and read some of the nonsense he writes, if you can read it that is, the guy cant even spell correctly.
vulcanproject  +   729d ago
Its aaaaallllllllll fake.

I actually laughed out loud when by some extreme fudging and no idea of scale he came up with a die size of 525mm squared for Xbone's main processor.


Thats nearly the size of a Geforce Titan die (550mm squared), with over 7 billion transistors. We already know that Xbone only has 5 billion. A whole bunch of that is just eSRAM.

Not to mention the fact there is an extremely limited number of Titans (10 thousand) because they are so difficult and expensive to make.

The Geforce GTX780 shares the same die but is a crippled Titan, poorer areas of the chip disabled to improve the yields and make more chips available to retail and yet even thats still a $650 card such is the huge expense of creating such a massive die.

Long story short, its impossible Microsoft would use such a ginormous die for their console, too expensive, to difficult to manufacture.

If they did they would swallow a fortune in losses on every machine sold and it would be a damn sight faster than 1.3 teraflops....
#3.5.1 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(1) | Report
mkis007  +   729d ago
Has any of his claims actually come true?
popup  +   729d ago
If only it were true. All MS would have needed to do was say that they had the most powerful hardware at the conference and everyone would be buying that.

Sony are saying that they have the worlds most powerful console and MS are not. MS instead tried to sell us transistor counts and clouds instead of comparative specs and that says more than the total nut job that is 'misterxmedia' and his imaginary insider friend ever has. But so what!

Why do people have to be so laughably brand loyal? Who cares what is the fastest? Turn off the internet and go play some games.
JanetLucas   729d ago | Spam
ChrisW  +   729d ago
In lamens terms, "Baaa, baaa, bah bah, baaaaaaa, baaaah PS4 FTW!!!"
SEAN1617  +   729d ago
Guys if this was real, why in GODS GOOD NAME WOULD MICROSOFT NOT JUST STATE SO? Because then XBOXONE WOULD BE MORE POWERFUL. NDA???!!! This would not prevent them from making that statement. This is 100% bogus.
coopman300  +   729d ago
Nda would mean ms is legally bound to not say anything until it is up so yea unless they want a huge lawsuit they wouldnt say anything.
moparful99  +   729d ago
@coop Microsoft has more than enough leverage to negotiate a contract that wouldn't gag them so close to the launch.. Not being able to reveal actual specs is hurting their reputation and public perception, tech as good as these rumors indicate wouldn't be covered up so aggressively.. We all know how much Microsoft loves to brag when they have an advantage, this whole scenario smells of damage control... Only reason anyone is buying that excuse is because of how neatly it cleans up their PR disaster up to this point.
#3.9.2 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
rainslacker  +   729d ago
At this point in time there is no more reason to hide it. There is really no time left for the competition to react. It would be a big boost to consumer perception, instead of just talking about "value proposition". I would wager that a majority of the early adopters already know what system they're going to buy, and the ones that come along later probably won't really care about specs that much.

Specs in real world terms don't mean much in most cases as developers are used to working with different setups, but there are many who like more powerful specs, and whether true or not, Sony is generally thought to have the more powerful system, and it can be backed up with analytical data.

If MS wanted people to get off their backs with the cost of the system, they could just say they have a more powerful one(and show why it's more powerful), instead of hyping things up with fancy PR Specs and power of the cloud.


There would be no reason for MS to have any kind of an NDA with a partner company for a chip that they have rights to. If this article's premise is true, MS would be well within their right to make it public. There is no reason for MS to put an NDA on itself.
pixelsword  +   729d ago

If Microsoft had any of this goin' on, they'd be singing it from the mountain top, not slyly leaving clues when it's rep is in the dumpster.
#3.10 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Majin-vegeta  +   730d ago
Wasnt this misterx Guy already proven to be fake with no reliable sources?
Jeff257  +   730d ago
If not his latest post certainly points to be nothing but fake. Less than a day after an interview that pretty much says Illumiroom won't go beyond a lab concept because it is too expensive.



His "insider" is claiming that it will be produced with Samsung's help to make it affordable for consumers.

Another aspect that I find disturbing is that somehow the Fortazela Glasses, (he misspelled Fortazela by the way), concept Microsoft patented is now supposed to be able to be paired with Kinect 2 and give gamers almost the same experience as the Oculus Rift. There is absolutely no way some thin glasses along with Kinect can do what Rift can do. He actually made a lot of grammar and spelling mistakes in the latest post including in his headline. Who spells reality as really?

I for one can't take anything he says seriously and I find it very sad that some people really seem to believe the deceptions he is selling.
#4.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(28) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
meatysausage  +   730d ago
I think he is russian or something so that explains bad writting.
Jeff257  +   730d ago
Yeah that would explain it. Doesn't explain the delusional mind though.
SuicideKing  +   730d ago
In Russia keyboards push your buttons.
pyramidshead  +   730d ago
The misterx and his conspiracy micro-zealot cronies have not been right on one single theory to date apparently. So it's justifiable to assume that this is also a lot of BS. Lots of people have come to the conclusion that they're all the same person, even the insider >_<. And most of the accounts that comment on the site are him too. Wouldn't be surprised. :P
Qrphe  +   730d ago
Is there a need to have THREE "Fake" reports to the same submission? It's a recurring issues with the vast majority of articles as well.
#5 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(25) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
Qrphe  +   730d ago
In addition, is there a way to control the blatant fanboyism in the Reports tab? It's sad to see moderation has been lost even in the Reports tab.
Avernus  +   730d ago
There's moderation here? :O
edgeofsins  +   730d ago
I feel like misterx is going to retrieve the HHG treatment.
NarooN  +   729d ago
I actually kinda miss seeing his ALLCAPS sensationalist titles, and then reading the comments where 97% of them were bashing him, lol. It was just funny.
No_Limit  +   730d ago
I think this rumor is false myself as it is already too late into development to announce any hidden secret. The only other console that actually tried to pull something off of this caliber is Sega with the Sega Saturn. Many may have have known but Sega added a 3D Hitachi chipset late in the development due to trying to combat the PS1's 3D capability. Sorry to say that that didn't end well for Sega.

But just for fun factor if nothing more, I secretly hope this rumor is true simply to watch all the meltdowns and suicide watch over at Neogaf. LOL
thereapersson  +   730d ago
I always enjoy your neutral comments. Anyway, part of me thinks this might have some substance due to MS's secrecy regarding the physical hardware, part of me thinks this whole thing is ridiculous and is the work of diehard fans grasping at straws because they can't even fathom let alone stomach the fact that a Sony console will be the dominant force this generation.


Guess 2.5 months is too long for some people...
slimeybrainboy  +   730d ago
Yeah it doesnt make sense. Why would you allow Sony to go around saying that they have the most powerful console ever built if they don't. There's is no way Sony could make changes this late.

Unless they want to wait for NDA's to expire, because if MS run around talking about stuff in the NDA the third parties might feel it's okay to talkabout other stuff in the NDA.
tordavis  +   730d ago
Because if it were true, they would make Sony look stupid.
tokugawa  +   729d ago
hmmm http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

see what albert whatever his name is from microsoft said on neogaf
joefrost00  +   729d ago
You know the thing that I find so funny is that
Not wheather its true or not or is there actually anything that MS is hiding
Its this without a doubt trust in sony
Sony says its has the most powerful console 90times a day no one says anything but also remember the ps3 suppose to hqve 6 usb ports dual screen gaming, the movies they showed in 2005 and I haven't seen the ps4 let alone the ps3 do the version of motorstorm I saw back in 2005
Not trying to bash sony its just saying we got the most powerful console what else are they going to say lol
Add all this with the fact that they dont even know all the cards the competition is holding I mean even the stuff we do know we have know idea how its going to work (the 15 side processors and 8gb flash ram)
Im just saying in all honesty sony has been gulity before of overhyping and under delivering
CoLD FiRE  +   729d ago
I agree. I don't care that the Xbox One is less powerful than the PS4 but I would love to see the reaction if it turned it out to be the most powerful console.
rainslacker  +   729d ago
You are correct about the Saturn. However I do believe that is a different scenario. Saturn was built to be a 2D machine, but they knew they couldn't compete against Sony's 3D machine.

Today, the X1 and PS4 are both very capable machines, that for the most part perform the same functions. They even use very similar parts. There is just a power difference between them, and they go about handling things in a different way. Both trains of thought on design have their pros and cons. It's just the way it is with console hardware.

With 2 months left to release, and the fact that both systems are currently in production, there isn't much that Sony could do to respond.

I personally wouldn't mind if the rumor were true, just because it means it'd be a more powerful console for the long haul.:)
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DEEBO  +   730d ago
watch this bullshit gets to 500 degrees.
Ripsta7th  +   730d ago
I have seen worst w more heat
Angeljuice  +   730d ago
Let the Xbots enjoy their moment of hope, they don't come around too often.
Does anybody know what Greenpowerz new account is? I'm sure he'll be the expert we need to shed light on this. /S
DEEBO  +   730d ago
i know but why hasn't MS said anything about their hardware? sony say's the ps4 is the console with the better specs all the time.if MS had this secret chip they would have said it buy now.with the way sony is killing them in the preorders this would help them if it was true.
theWB27  +   730d ago | Well said
I'm not saying this is true...but pretty much everyone that has gone over the X1 specs say there is something missing from the Hotchips presentation.
"The GPU block is where things start to get really interesting to the point where calling it only GPU is almost a misnomer. Graphics are by far the majority of the transistors here but there are at least seven other blocks in that area. The exact count is a bit nebulous though, Microsoft claims “15 special purpose co-processors” not counting the CPUs and GPUs, eight of which are audio. That would leave seven for the rest of the system and those should end up in the GPU block. SemiAccurate knows that there are several important sub-systems in the XBO that are not on the diagrams or in the talk but we are not sure if the 15 count includes them or not."

Things from the diagram still not being explained.

Then the misterxmedia guy (his blog is hilariously badly written) says there's a NDA with AMD and Micro that lifts on the 29th of September.

So...what's the reason why Micro hasn't fully told everything in the box? IDK...don't play for specs but I'm weerily waiting on the 29th to see if anything happens.
#8 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(37) | Disagree(20) | Report | Reply
Pain_Killer  +   730d ago
AMD is going to officially announce their Volcanic Islands family of graphic cards during the last week of September to the press in Hawaii.


But there's something that needs to be noted, not all GPUs in the Volcanic Islands family are based off the new Hawaii architecture, some reuse the current 7000 series tech with minor modifications.
#8.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
Convas  +   730d ago
So in essence, September 29th could end up being a glorious or horrendous day, depending on who's flag your sailing?

Either way, it's going to make for some mighty good fireworks. Quite a few of the tech breakdowns by GAF members did mention that there was something amiss, something missing from the puzzle.

I'm going to keep my expectations reserved. This could be very interesting.
#8.2 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(23) | Disagree(8) | Report | Reply
NoLongerHereCBA  +   730d ago
If you are in for the games it will never be negative for the PS4. The machine is already capable of beautiful games like Killzone, so I don't see why it would be terrible for them :) Unless you are actually a fanboy and want the console itself to beat others.

I am going for an Xbox one and I really hope for this to be true, but I am also keeping my expectations very low, so I won't be disappointed if this is not the case/if it turns out to be something trivial :)

If this turns out to be true, then I am wondering why studio's are struggling with framerate. Don't they have this so called second GPU yet in their devkits or is it not yet 'enabled'?
#8.2.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(11) | Report
Machiavellian  +   730d ago
If you are in it for the games then either console will deliver. If this rumor ends up being true, the fallout will be against the fanboys which is what you see a lot on these forums
timotim  +   729d ago
How do you figure Xbox One is struggling with framerates? Forza 5 and KI runs at 60FPS. Halo 5 as well. PS4 has KZ which SP runs at 30. 30 for Knack too. No word on Infamous yet.
rainslacker  +   729d ago

Haven't seen any reports of struggling frame rates, however if they do exist, then it's possible that the developers don't have access to that hardware yet, or at least not all of it. It's not uncommon at all for console makers to hold back part of their machine to developers early on.

It's also possible the discrete GPU isn't as powerful as this article assumes.

Lots of possibilities really, but again, I haven't seen devs complain about frame rate.
DJMarty  +   730d ago
Its bull, Most of the extra crap is for the pay boxes Cable box TV Crap. PIP anyone.
Cueil  +   730d ago
no... that would just need software support for USB based cable cards
Nocando  +   730d ago
Comments like yours are now simply a bore to read, an anti Xbox echo chamber. At least be a little more original.
windblowsagain  +   730d ago | Funny
I Figured it out.

There is a special handle. If pulled chocolate come out.
#8.4 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
Animal Mutha 76  +   730d ago
Lol :)
ashahab862   730d ago | Spam
Athonline  +   730d ago
Just find AMD's APUs architecture overview and then the HSA standards...

Both consoles under HSA got their GPUs inside the APUs. That is the purpose of the APU in the first place...

And before someone refers to some articles saying XBOne doesn't have HSA/hUMA:
HSA IS part of the Jaguar APU architecture and in extended, an evolution of the more traditional X86-64 architecture the APUs are based on.
None of the two consoles got hUMA, as hUMA is a PC "implementation" of partially HSA standards, using AMD hardware.
joeorc  +   730d ago

"And before someone refers to some articles saying XBOne doesn't have HSA/hUMA:
HSA IS part of the Jaguar APU architecture and in extended, an evolution of the more traditional X86-64 architecture the APUs are based on.
None of the two consoles got hUMA, as hUMA is a PC "implementation" of partially HSA standards, using AMD hardware."

the Xboxone has something "like hUMA" it is not hUMA though.

where as the PS4's does indeed have hUMA!

PlayStation 4 includes hUMA technology
27 Aug 2013

#8.5.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(8) | Report
Athonline  +   729d ago
hUMA is just an implementation of HSA without interfering with the rest of von newman architecture.

A better understanding of hUMA: http://www.notebookreview.c...

Now HSA IS a standard, where a uniform memory pool is implemented for both the CPU AND GPU. HSA main idea is to allow the GPU to get CPU privileges, as so far the GPU couldn't access the main system's memory.

HSA is the whole idea behind APUs, read their technical specifications and search for the HSA standards. The architecture specifications are available here: http://hsafoundation.com/st...

hUMA is just allowing the GPU in a Von Newman architecture, as in a traditional Von Newman the GPU isn't part of the same die as the CPU, to access the system memory and retrieve data from it directly in simple words.

In case you didn't notice, most "technical" sites copy one from another as their journalists are acting like parrots, instead of doing original research.

I can bet my Computer Science bachelor if you want; HSA is in both consoles, like it or not. hUMA is not, as it isn't needed -HSA covers hUMA feature list in an even greater depth and efficiency.
Call_Of_Doggy  +   730d ago
I have to lol at this because, didnt MS say "specs dont matter?"
Didnt they say "even though PS4 has better specs on paper, cloud makes X1 better?" lol.

That guy you referenced, he is a known internet mad man fanboy for MS.
The last year he has stated:

-Not 8 Jaguar Cores(X86-64) but 8 IBM POWER 7 cores.
-It will be having 12 or 16GB of Ram.
-It will have 10TFlops of power.
-It will have backwards compatibility, this is why MS is using 8IBM POWER PC cores.
-It will be like two super computers in one outperforming Nasa computers.
-It WONT have a power brick.

Im on Semi-Accurate, he is like excommunicated from there for being a madman. So, why would anyone take him seriously? He is like a fanboy extremist.

Xbone so powerful... MS doesnt market it as such. According to him, its 10TFlops and struggles to lock 30fps in Dead Rising 3?
Please people. Stop being naive.
Xbone=1.2Tflops. 1 GPU. HD7790,8JAG [email protected]
PS4= 1.84TFlops. 1GPU. HD7870,8 JAG [email protected]

Stop thinking X1 is powered by wizard jizz.
Its not.
tokugawa  +   729d ago

this was the guys reason for saying it posted on neogaf
Axonometri  +   730d ago
Don't you think this would get way too hot??? Cooling something like this in a box like the Xbox One would be one hell of a feat.
theWB27  +   730d ago
Have you seen the fan? The console is basically all vent.

Related image(s)
DJMarty   730d ago | Trolling | show
ZoyosJD  +   730d ago
You're exactly right. There was a custom university developed liquid cooling solution developed for stacked chips of this comparable wattage.

The result of stacking two chips of that size and only air cooling them would result in an approximate five fold increase of heat retention.
SITH  +   730d ago
Heat Retention or dissipation? I think you meant dissipation. Retention of heat in a console would be catastrophic.
jerethdagryphon  +   729d ago
so its a apu then a 2 gig gpu with 2000 stream cores bolted on top.

all on a 22nm die....pulling less then 200 watts of power..

no simply no.

while its possible to stack silicon like that your looking at a few serious drawbacks

first cost
a low end apu cost me 55£ to buy
and an equivlent gpu to the one listed is 250£

the power draw for this chip would be close to 350 watt even with low clock speeds
its a 800mhz gpu a 6450 has that speed and, 160 cores...

the heatsink isnt that big its compreble in size to a dvd drive which looks like 5.25x5.25 inches so 29ish sqaure inches
double it because it is 2 inches high so 60 cubich inches of cooling,
that might be enough to radiate heat away but that single fan isnt likly to move much air

the apu witch is 8 jaguar cpu gores plus a bolted on hd77xx gpu, will generate enough heat.

all the customization they've done is likely the move engines which are more or less a advanced memory controller for specific tasks

and security.

the apu is the cpu and gpu , there is no seperate other cpu unlike some have said.

the onlything more unlikly then an additional full chip in there is if it used asynchronous chips


until theres hard evidence to support a hidden chip take it with a bucket of salt
yewles1  +   730d ago
"Radeon HD 6670 GPU"

BZZZT!!! Modified HD 7xxx series GPU with 12 compute units (768 stream processors, dual instruction) at 853MHz, 1.310TFLOP/s.
Cueil  +   730d ago
what is strange is that they still have officially released the CPU clock speed (though I think one site took a stab at it using that presentation at 1.9ghz.)
NarooN  +   729d ago
Any increase to the clockspeed would be very miniscule and only produce tangible performance gains at best.

People need to understand that the Jaguar architecture was never meant to clock high, unlike AMD's Vishera CPU's for example. Therefore, people need to stop expecting MS to pull out a mythical bunny from their hat and announce that they clocked the CPU up to 3.9 GHz or something.

Besides, most games on the PS4 and X1 will be heavily multi-threaded since both consoles have low-powered octocores in them. 1.6 GHz x8 will be enough for the games we will see on these systems.
Athonline  +   730d ago
I wonder how much of what you just said, mean something to you other than numbers...
yewles1  +   730d ago
Numbers matter a lot, especially if pulling a BS claim as an HD 6670 would indicate an AMD generation behind what's actually confirmed in PS4/XB1, and warrant that much less of a $500 price tag justification.
ABeastNamedTariq  +   730d ago
N4G would explode, lol. Question: how expensive would it be to integrate two GPUs? I mean generally speaking, of course. It sounds expensive. Would it mean taking a big loss?
grassyknoll  +   730d ago
They would mean they would be making a loss & the machine would be difficult to develop for. These stupid rumours need to stop.
CoLD FiRE  +   729d ago
It would be more expensive but it wouldn't be difficult to develop for.
joeorc  +   730d ago

"Question: how expensive would it be to integrate two GPUs? I mean generally speaking, of course. It sounds expensive. Would it mean taking a big loss?"

"Would it mean taking a big loss?"

yupper's unless you have spent and invested in such production process for your companies silicon production, yes its very expensive, and than it nets you lower cost's much, much later but upfront you are spending lots of money upfront to net greater cost reduction's later.


Its designed-in longevity is largely a matter of economics. The Cell Broadband Engine that powered the PS3 cost $400m to develop; the main SoC for the incoming console is likely to be a 3D stack incorporating thru-silicon-via technology and could be the first $1bn hardware design project.


So the R&D cost's just for the PS4 soc was 1 Billion

and the simple fact Microsoft does not produce silicon CPU/GPU or Cmos sen's for other companies they have to shop for companies that do.

Example: Sony makes Camera sen's that go into the iPhone, Galaxy line of smartphone's. Microsoft makes no such physical hardware!

So being realistic, does it sound to you like Microsoft is employing such production silicon that would net tham a loss of over $250.00 to $300.00/per unit upfront? for later cost reductions many years down the road?

that's why i know this is pretty much a bull crap rumor.

Unless you produce chips for other companies, employing such production techniques is very expensive upfront unless you spent many years investment to do such production, and even than its going to require new tooling, and take 2 to 3 years after production to get cost benefits. but that is years of investment prior to employing such tooling.
SITH  +   730d ago
Looks at GTX 690. Not hard at all apparently. And MS spends 9 billion in research alone, they are not afraid of a loss.

#11.3 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
jerethdagryphon  +   729d ago
the sega saturn had 3 gpus 2 d 3d and a 3rd chip all needing coding concurently.
integrating them isnt a problem its just as the lithographic process gets more complex cost skyrockets

if your willing to pay for it amd could build a cpu with 10 gpus added to it but that soc would probobly cost per chip 2x what it would take to build
normaly all youd save is space

because the ram is external to the cip itsc a bottleneck

remember ps3s cpu clocked 3.2 ghz its xdr ram also clocked 3.2 its gpu however clocked 700sih i think and bottlenecked everything

no matter how fast a chip its limited by the slowest parts
AceBlazer13  +   730d ago
Tupac could possibly walk the earth again.Highly unlikely(very very every unlikely) but possible.
LucasEVille  +   730d ago
Reason for not putting out the release date, one last broadside from MS?
AddictiveGamer   730d ago | Spam
jackdaddy   730d ago | Trolling | show
Cueil  +   730d ago
The tech is real and going to be used in AMD's new chips... the question is Microsoft purposely not allowing any developers access to this due to AMD's NDAs? While I find this questionable the amusement I would get if it was true would be worth every single disagree that I get.
LucasEVille  +   730d ago
I sensed a great disturbance in the force, like a million Sony fanboys cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
#16.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(23) | Report | Reply
MasterCornholio  +   730d ago
Reminds me of the Xbox One reveal.

And the price reveal at E3.

Motorola RAZR i
tokugawa  +   729d ago
lol lucasEVille. i also sensed the disturbance, to me it was like a million sony fanboys assploded

anyway, i dont think a second gpu. just a move engine with a drop of mark cerny jizz in it.. the secret sauce!!
#16.1.2 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(3) | Report
thereapersson  +   730d ago
Well the only benefit to that theory is that launch games are always rough compared to games later in a system's life cycle. We are at a point where even early-cycle games look good, so if there is any hidden tech waiting to be unleashed, at least Microsoft can fudge a bit by waiting. Imagine the news shocker if this rumor were to turn out as factual...

*Mr. Burns Excellent pose*
acdata  +   730d ago
DICE already used dual GPU configuration to show xboxone power .
Animal Mutha 76  +   730d ago
I've seen quite a lot of noise about this possibly being a dGPU stacked wafer. Sounds too good to be true and whilst I would love it to be correct ( can you imagine the lolz?), I will call this as unlikely for now.

If this does turn out to be true it will be the biggest bluff and misdirection by MS in the history of gaming and the Internet will explode, N4Sony will melt and Maria will have to change her name.

Of all the cock a hoop rumours I've read in the last few months this one is the most incredible and unlikely but would be ultramegagigaton.
memots  +   730d ago
like chicken and waffle stacks ??

Me love some Fried chicken,.
MasterCornholio  +   730d ago
Seems more like a wish list to me than anything else.

Seriously if the Xbox One was so powerful with a dual GPU configuration don't you think Microsoft would use it to shut Sony up?

Has anyone forgotten Sonys comment? "Our console is the most powerful console ever made and the Xbox One is weakling in comparison."

Motorola RAZR i
Ripsta7th  +   730d ago
Why are putting words in Sony's mouth? They never said it was a weakling in comparison because they know it isnt , it is behind though and also that would make Sony seem childish
MasterCornholio  +   730d ago
"Mark Cerny, the lead system architect for the PlayStation 4 has pointed out what he believes to be an underappreciated aspect of Sony’s new console. That it is “the world’s most powerful games console.”"


And in comparison the XBOX One is weak according to Sony otherwise they wouldnt brag about it so much. They make it seem that their console is far ahead of the XBOX One in terms of processing capabilities and graphics when the truth is that the two consoles are closer than what most people think. But in the end that doesnt change the fact that theres a 500 gigaflop difference between the two systems with the Wii U on slightly above last gen systems (XBOX 360, PS3) +

P.S What amazes me is that some XBOX fans go the distance and invent false information on a dual GPU configuration that the XBOX One doesnt have. Like i said its merely them begging for the rumors to be true because they cant stand the fact that they are paying more for Kinect and a weaker console.

P.S.S The best thing they can do is just accept that they want to play XBOX One exclusives and buy the console for that because if they wanted a console for superior multiplats (based on what devs said) and Sony exclusives they would get a PS4 instead of an XBOX One.
#18.1.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(16) | Report
Angeljuice  +   730d ago
And the guy from AMD stated that the PS4 has the most powerful APU they have ever produced.
pandehz  +   730d ago
If this turns out to be true it will be a BEAST. With 2000+ stream processors its at the higher end of the pc spectrum.
If its true Im defo getting one.

But again this might all be total BS. If it does turn out to be true woah this is gonna create major news.
#19 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
FrigidDARKNESS  +   730d ago
Microsoft didn't invest 3-4 billion dollars into AMD R&D for nothing. They probably been working on this since 2009 . AMD has stated that they wanted to bridge the gap quickly between console and PC. Microsoft stated after the HotChips presentation that their was one large SoC that didn't get discuss but due to NDA agreement with AMD can't discuss it till after September 29th. If so the dgpu is based off AMD new GPUs Volcanic Island Hawaii.
Kayant  +   730d ago
Where's the evidence of MS investing 3-4 billion dollars into AMD? Or is that also under NDA...
FrigidDARKNESS  +   730d ago
You folks from the other side just makes me lol....always wanting evidence. Hey Google is your friend you can it to research the info. For you.
quenomamen  +   730d ago
I heard there was this one MS rep @ E3 who was talking up abd down bout a second discreet GPU, people laughed and said hw was nuts. Well turns out he hasnt been seen since, nobody knows where he went, police are baffled, and now ol' Steve Ballmer retiring ? Seems mighty fishy to me.
devwan  +   730d ago
@FrigidDARKNESS "You folks from the other side just makes me lol....always wanting evidence."

Pathetic humans wanting evidence, what is the world coming to?!

Rather than use facts, instead believe in Microsoft's secret sauce! Hell, not just the sauce, there's a whole stealth burger and camo fries hiding in there, too! BELIEVE!
thereapersson  +   730d ago
@ Frigid

Yeah, who needs evidence these days? Let's convict people on hearsay and aggregated opinions / rumors! You'd be a great politician...
#20.1.4 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(6) | Report
Belking  +   730d ago

It's true. You guys are in denial...lol
H0RSE  +   730d ago
You re all taking his "evidence" line out of context...

He isn't "loling" at the fact that you want confirmation that something is true, its at the fact that the evidence is available if you look for it, but instead of doing research and educating yourselves, you immediately deny anything that is contrary to your viewpoint, and jump to the "link or it didn't happen" defense, like a child being told santa doesn't exist....many of you are so dismissive of any sort of positive or even neutral news concerning MS/xbox that you come off as cynical and/or paranoid.

Some of you don't just want evidence - you want it served to you on a silver plate with the important parts highlighted, along with a source to confirm the source. It's your attitudes and the way many of you go about it, that was his point.
#20.1.6 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(4) | Report
Kayant  +   730d ago
We are always wanting evidence loool.... So how are we suppose to believe there is any substance to the rumour if there's no evidence of them investing into AMD. Also searching was the first thing I did.
#20.2 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
Clarence  +   730d ago
Hehehe. Keep dreaming
biglittlesps  +   730d ago
this is stupid, if that is that much powerful then why can't it run 1080p 60FPS killer instinct and so far many developers and sony itself said PS4 is powerful and Microsoft took weak hardware for compensating Kinect.
FrigidDARKNESS  +   730d ago
Thats because devs are still under NDA and can't talk about x1 architecture and games after September 21. After that date the truth will be revealed.
cfir  +   730d ago
So they're not allowed to talk about it, or use it either ? I can imagine the developer meeting. OK guys, we've got an additional GPU on the system, but we're not allowed to talk about it. So you're not allowed to use it until after September 21st OK. I thought NDA was a non disclosure agreement, not a non development agreement.
M-M  +   730d ago
Come on Frigid it WON'T happen. Like someone said earlier, this is NOT something Microsoft would want to hide, and their console would be capable of doing a lot more than it is now if it were true. Xbox executives even com firmed that the Xbox One specs are pretty much finalized, and won't be changing since it's way too late for that. Even Microsoft said something along the lines of "It's not all about the console power and/or graphics", get over your self Frigid.
DoesUs  +   730d ago
Good old Frigid, al;ways on hand when any of this rubbish appears. Wait till this, wait till that. Funny.
Clarence  +   730d ago
So since you know so much and it's obvious that your working for them, how come you are allowed to talk about it before sept 21?
n4rc  +   730d ago
Parts can be disabled or not included in a dev kit... Or full documentation isn't available and they are winging it for the moment..

People pretend to be experts and insiders all the time... There is some logic to it it being real... But also some things that point to it being fake..

NDAs are common place and explains a lot.. So let's just wait a few weeks and see what happens..
creatchee  +   730d ago

"So they're not allowed to talk about it, or use it either ?"

If this whole thing is true (and that is a big IF), then developers probably don't even know about it yet. They've only been able to use Xbox One dev kits, which wouldn't feature the enhanced tech because it doesn't "exist" yet.

If developers don't know about the tech, they can't really use it because they have no way of addressing it and allocating it in their coding.

However, we're still talking about an IF here. Should be interesting to see if it's true though.
Sweep14  +   729d ago
@creatchee If devs don't know about the additional GPU and will discover it end of september, their games will not take it into account because they would NEVER be ready for X1 launch
Eddie20101  +   729d ago
So the devs have to tell lies because there under NDA. That makes all the sense in the world.-S
moparful99  +   729d ago
Who on Earth thinks that Microsoft wouldn't have enough legal leverage to negotiate an NDA that doesn't gag them so close to launch? Especially if they actually did invest all of the money the fanboys would have you believe they have into AMD..
FlunkinMonkey  +   730d ago
As cool as it would be.. Never. Gonna. Happen.

Do you guys really think MS would be holding back this info with both consoles so close to release with MS having taken the beating they have so far, and there being no chance of competitors editing their hardware because they are so close to launch? seriously..

You guys need to get your head out the clouds (forgive the pun), many of you above are ppl i've seen ranting about the specs don't matter, and now you are getting raging hard ons in excitement..
#22 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(14) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
NarooN  +   729d ago
If this crap were real, MS would have been talking it up at E3. But of course, that never happened.

MS: "Oh!, we have this secret dGPU in our system and our theoretical bandwidth is OVAR 9000!!! But let's not mention this at all at E3 next week, let's allow Sony to completely make us look like absolute shit! That'll get us tons of pre-orders and support!"
Call_Of_Doggy  +   730d ago

Its 1.2TFlops.


Its getting pretty sad when games like Dead Rising 3 cant be locked to 30FPS and theres still people saying its more powerful than it is.
memots  +   730d ago
a 360 game that can't do 30fps on the Xbox one makes you wonder indeed.
Whitey2k  +   730d ago
Yeah if this was suppose to be true y aint killer instinct 1080p hell y aint battlefield 4 running 1080p if it has dual gpu. why are some third party publishers saying ps4 is looking better then the x1 counterpart.. hell y aint all x1 games 1080p
cfir  +   730d ago
So now it has 32Mb ESRAM and 2GB of GDDR5 all on board the APU. You wouldn't have both. Unless Microsoft have gone back to the drawing board and we're now talking a November 2014 release, then I think this is highly unlikely.
acdata  +   730d ago
let me correct you, no it has 48Mb ESRAM
Fangrim  +   729d ago
Let me correct you.

The Xbox One SoC has 47MB on-die memory/cache. 32MB of those are the 32MB ESRAM.

The last 15MB are CPU L1/L2 caches, and some various caches for other parts of the chip.

#25.1.1 (Edited 729d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(0) | Report
grassyknoll  +   730d ago
A machine of this spec would be in a case twice as big as the current Xbox One. It's gonna catch on fire or melt within a few hours of launch.
corvusmd  +   730d ago
Adding 2 gb of GDDR5 would have to double the size of the XB1? Now that makes no sense
grassyknoll  +   730d ago
The article says there's an extra GPU on the die, the cooling required would mean a case the size of a desktop PC & probably cost MS over 700 dollars to manufacture. It's not going to happen.
Foxgod  +   729d ago
Well, the X1 is bigger then the ps4, so plenty of air flow.
urwifeminder  +   730d ago
Already buying it don't care about power that's why my pc is beast if true great if false great.
quenomamen  +   730d ago
Yea, I also heard its lower spec RAM was actually better because it has " lower latency "
First it was teh cloud making it 3x more powerful, then the RAM was better, then they raised the speed by an earth shattering 53MHz, now it turns out it has a second GPU nobody ever knew about, no MS reps, Devs, not Maj. BS Nelson, nobody. Yea, ok, sure ahuh. I beleive it.
Foxgod  +   729d ago
to be fair, neither gddr5 and ddr3 are better.
They both do the job, in their own way, gddr5 is faster, and ddr3 has better timings.
ooquis  +   730d ago
Well for a $500 console it better have!
corvusmd  +   730d ago
Well as of right now I'll treat this like what it is...a rumor. There are some hints that it may be true, but what is certain, is that IF it is true, it's going to be a REALLY bad day(Gen) for Sony fanboys that staked their claim that PS4 was the superior machine. The systems are already great, but this would make it even that much better.
Clarence  +   730d ago
M$ doesn't know how to make hardware better than their competitors. They have a track record of crappy hardware.
joeorc  +   730d ago

"Well as of right now I'll treat this like what it is...a rumor. There are some hints that it may be true, but what is certain, is that IF it is true, it's going to be a REALLY bad day(Gen) for Sony fanboys that staked their claim that PS4 was the superior machine. The systems are already great, but this would make it even that much better."

Hint's that its true? really?

Oh come the freak on, there is no hint's, there is no magic installed 2nd GPU, and you know the reason how i know this?

Because the price, point that Microsoft is offering the xboxone for, would not be even able to entertain such a price point without loosing over $300.00 on each and every freaking xboxone upfront.

You seen exactly what happens when you do this last generation, Sony used this form of 3D stacking TSV, and it cost them, and unlike Microsoft Sony was already invested into 3D stacked TSV far ahead of Microsoft. Since Microsft even has to have other companies produce their chips for them!

And even still Sony, even though is able to produce their own chip's its still an expensive process to perform. why do you think Sony had IBM and Toshiba along with them to produce the chip's?

There is no freaking Hint, unlike many it seem's who even think this is even remotely true it is as clear as day have not worked in this part of chip production at all, and would know this entire rumor is based on something that Sony has, but Microsoft has to have it also, because there is no why Sony's machine can have anything in it that is unique!

its pretty d@mn simple why this claim that Microsoft's xboxone is using 3D stacked TSV is bull crap and its not based on how much money each company his in its coffer's, its the fact that your company had to spend, and spend, and freaking spend ..invest and again invest, and invest again to do such chip production, and that is mainly so you can sell chips to other companies in order to recover the cost's of such production expenses.

Does Microsoft produce chips like these for other companies, themselves?

that Answer is a clear No!

they are not a chip production company.


I already went over this very subject, way back months ago, unlike Microsoft, Sony has already been employing such production techniques for such chips. even the PSVita is already employing such 3D stacked TSV technology. but it takes multiple year's of investment to reach this point .

something Microsoft has not done because they are not in chip production, and again they have to find another such company to do it for them. go on, show me the chip chips spn number's i will be waiting
acdata  +   730d ago
Microsoft already showed its SOC has 3 layers wafer 2 wafer so don't eat shit,even in its E3 presentation
#30.2.1 (Edited 730d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(2) | Report
joeorc  +   730d ago

"Microsoft already showed its SOC has 3 layers wafer 2 wafer so don't eat shit,even in its E3 presentation"

OMG just because it has 3 layer's does not mean its silicon is a 3D stacked TSV!


web.eecs.umich.edu/~reetudas/ papers/decoupledISL-dac10.pdf‎


if it was, they would be taking far larger loss than you think, 1st of all, TSV 3D stacked chips companies that make this silicon, do so as to net themselves far larger cost reductions much later down the road when they can ramp up production, but that is mostly if you intend to sell this chip or a ver on the open market.

unless Microsoft's SOC is being used to be on the open market, you can bet your bottom $$$ that the cost returns are going to maintain a much Higher cost in production cost's than a chip that would be ramped in much larger yields.

people need to read this and get it through their thick head's here:

"The cost of TSV manufacturing is still too high for most applications. In a 5µ diameter, 10:1 aspect ratio via middle TSV process technology, each tier (i.e., each wafer) bears an extra cost of $80-100, or 2-3%; the enabling point of 2.5D- and 3D-IC is very application- and design-dependent. The power/heat management burden is an unresolved challenge. Delayed payment and inventory management are major supply chain hurdles for involved parties to overcome. The current forecast is to see the first products in the second half of this decade."

we are talking about another 5 to 8 year's!
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