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DragonKnight

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Will Crackdown 3 Prove Gamer Hypocrisy?

Seems these days there's always a repetitive article on the site about Crackdown 3's Gamescom demo and the cloud compute destruction target for the multiplayer in Crackdown 3. Everyone and their grandmother is turning up their hype meter and turning down their critical thinking based on this demo.

What are my thoughts on it? Well I'm just going to say that the lot of you who are foaming at the mouth may be in for a harsh reality check when the game has to contend with real user conditions and not a conference demonstration meant to sell you the idea.

But my opinions of the tech shown is not what this blog is about. No, this blog is about the proceeding demands after viewing the demo coming from easily manipulated/pleased and possibly hypocritical gamers.

Since seeing the demo, you probably can't find a Crackdown 3, Cloud Compute, or even an Xbox One article loosely discussing either of those topics without comments demanding 3rd party studios use Cloud Compute from now on and replicate Crackdown 3's still unproven tech in their games. Now the Xbox One fans are starting to use the "#NoParity" in their comments and saying the PS4 is holding back the Xbox One. Hilarious.

So why do I say that these gamers are possibly hypocrites? What is the point of the title question?

Simple. Always Online.

Demanding 3rd party developers use cloud compute is demanding that every game be always online. But... wait a minute? Does anyone remember what the Xbox One's original vision was when it launched?

Hmm... Let me think....

Oh that's right, it was to have an always online, DRM riddled console. And what happened when the Xbox One was launched? 99.999999999999% of gamers all over the world blasted Microsoft a new hole for even thinking of doing something so stupid.

So why are you telling Microsoft and all the third party developers that you now want an always online console?

Queue Incoming Arguments
=========================

"There's still going to be single player, offline campaigns. Crackdown 3 has one."

But you don't care about them. You're demanding cloud compute be used, likely even in the single player campaigns, which necessitates always online because you can't use cloud compute offline.

"Why do you even have a current gen console if you're not going to play online?"

Variety. Choice. Basic consumer rights. There are more people who prefer offline single player than you might think. Especially as new gamers come in and play online, as you get older you get annoyed much easier with say the 12 year old kids throwing temper tantrums, or the cheaters making online lose any semblance of enjoyment, etc... Plus, a game with a solid single player campaign generally has a great story and clearly more effort put into the game than one that focuses so heavily on online.

"This clearly isn't the same thing as what MS proposed at the initial launch of the Xbox One."

Isn't it? You demand a game use a feature that necessitates the console being online the entire time you are playing that game, a feature that will not work if you are offline, diminishing your experience. So while the Xbox One proposed a situation in which your game would flat out not work at all if the console was not online, you've simply traded in that situation for the lesser of two evils, but an evil all the same.

Here's the rub. Games like these can easily be used to reintroduce MS' original vision in a much more subtle way. By demanding this tech be used by all 3rd party studios (which is a laughable demand that will never happen for a myriad of reasons) what you're doing is sending the message that you're perfectly fine with always online DRM so long as it's introduced to you in a nice package. When it was just the Xbox One launching, it infuriated you. But put the DRM behind Crackdown 3's destruction, and you'll ignore it completely because you're foaming at the mouth at "Teh Powah of Da Kloud"

So what was the point of arguing with Microsoft about an always online console if you're going to then demand an always online console?

You tell me.

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Gazondaily2132d ago (Edited 2132d ago )

"You're demanding cloud compute be used, likely even in the single player campaigns. "

No. That's a sweeping statement. Some don't mind if the SP has cloud compute. I don't see people demanding en masse that SP portions have mandatory cloud features.

Not all genres are suited to it but many are. Heck, no one moans about Destiny being online only.

This always online slippery slope argument seems like a big overreaction to me.

" Well I'm just going to say that the lot of you who are foaming at the mouth may be in for a harsh reality check when the game has to contend with real user conditions "

Well many people have said lets wait and see until its out but whats wrong with foaming at the mouth about this tech. Many of us find it exciting.

And you know what, people are right to stick it to the naysayers who made "Teh powah of teh cloudz" jabs. That's where the real hypocrisy arises. These 'but Sony can do it too!' comments are puzzling when prior to Gamescom, the very same people ridiculed it as being impossible or marketing spiel.

So many from certain camps are obviously praying that this fails (and not for any noble reason about always online).

It has been hilarious witnessing the meltdowns and flip flopping the Crackdown demo caused. It's a new piece of tech ffs and its downright delusional to assume that a big part of the skepticism against cloud compute isnt rooted in 'console wars'.

If it works thats great. It doesn't mean DRM is back. Take Crackdown as an example. The only and first one we have of how SP and MP with the cloud can work.

If the cloud enables experience otherwise not possible without it, what on earth is there to complain about? Realistically, it's application will be made in more MP orientated games and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

DragonKnight2132d ago

"No. That's a sweeping statement. Some don't mind if the SP has cloud compute. I don't see people demanding en masse that SP portions have mandatory cloud features. Not all genres are suited to it but many are. Heck, no one moans about Destiny being online only."

Most don't mention online or single player when they demand third party devs use cloud computer. They simply demand that it's used. And actually no one moans anymore that Destiny is online only, but they used to and they still should.

"Well many people have said lets wait and see until its out but whats wrong with foaming at the mouth about this tech. Many of us find it exciting."

P.T. Barnum said it best. "There's one born every minute." He was talking about suckers. People who've been conned. Best way to con someone is to show them something that gets them to foam at the mouth, then under deliver, or not at all. Again, the Milo Effect. Remember what was promised, even shown, vs. what was the reality.

"And you know what, people are right to stick it to the naysayers who made "Teh powah of teh cloudz" jabs. That's where the real hypocrisy arises. These 'but Sony can do it too!' comments are puzzling when prior to Gamescom, the very same people ridiculed it as being impossible or marketing spiel."

Why are they? We've been shown a demo, not real world conditions. This is still up in the air. And realistically, Sony COULD do it to. I personally don't care and wouldn't be bothered if they did or didn't either way, but both companies have access to cloud compute so it's not a falsehood to say Sony could do it to. I'm sure they won't though. And about the possibility, well let's see when Crackdown 3 releases and hits the uncontrollable wild market.

Personally whether or not this fails currently has no impact on my gaming experience. But the demands being made to 3rd party studios are laced with hypocrisy. You can say that "realistically its application will be made with more MP oriented games" but you really don't know that. There is no actual reason to restrict it to MP only when there are plenty of SP games with online only because publishers like EA give B.S. reasons of "it has to be" and it's not.

I see people forgetting that they were against always online and now completely for it because it was wrapped up in a nice box with a pretty bow.

Gazondaily2132d ago

You can't just simplify this and lump it into the 'always online' argument. It's not that simple.

If Xbox gamers want this then what's the problem? I don't see any cause for concern about this.

"Personally whether or not this fails currently has no impact on my gaming experience."

But it impacts mine and a lot of fans enjoyment and we want this to work!

"But the demands being made to 3rd party studios are laced with hypocrisy."

Why? Asking third parties to support cloud compute doesnt mean completely shut off single player sections. Third parties could utilise it for their mp titles.

Cloud and MP appear to go hand in hand. I want this to work and I want third parties to embrace it too. Why am I a bad guy?

DragonKnight2132d ago

"You can't just simplify this and lump it into the 'always online' argument. It's not that simple."

Yes actually I can because my argument is about the people, not the tech itself. Everyone knows the tech requires always online, but the people making blanket demands that it be used by all third party developers conveniently forget that they also didn't like the idea of always online when the Xbox One launched and threatened single player games among other things.

"If Xbox gamers want this then what's the problem? I don't see any cause for concern about this."

Then why didn't you want an always online DRM box when Don Mattrick gave it to you?

"But it impacts mine and a lot of fans enjoyment and we want this to work!"

It working or not is not the point of this blog.

"Why? Asking third parties to support cloud compute doesnt mean completely shut off single player sections. Third parties could utilise it for their mp titles."

IF that's how it works, cool. But in a world of Diablo 3s and Sim Citys, do you put it past developers to make single player campaigns always online? Hell, just today there was a Dying Light 2 article where Techland used the "our ideas may be too ambitious for current consoles" statement and people were like "use cloud compute." Have you played Dying Light? It's SP is vastly stronger than its MP, not to mention it's a seemless experience the way AC Unity or Watch Dogs is for MP. It uses the same campaign as SP, and the same map. So using cloud compute for Dying Light 2 effectively forces the SP to be always online. This is the problem.

"Cloud and MP appear to go hand in hand. I want this to work and I want third parties to embrace it too. Why am I a bad guy?"

Again, it working or not is not the point of this blog. Especially in regards to MP. The point of this blog is that in one breath always online sucks, and in another it doesn't because a game made people's nipples hard.

freshslicepizza2131d ago

"Yes actually I can because my argument is about the people, not the tech itself. Everyone knows the tech requires always online, but the people making blanket demands that it be used by all third party developers conveniently forget that they also didn't like the idea of always online when the Xbox One launched and threatened single player games among other things."

all you are doing is conveniently putting everything into one box to satisfy your own argument. this isn't about required all games to be online, this is about the idea of using the cloud in more games that are already going to be online. you will still have offline games and the console itself will not magically be the original vision of the xbox one. consumers spoke loud and clear about that. imagine a world where consumers can actually decipher wanting games to utilize the cloud in some games and also not have every game require a connection. i know that's difficult but try.

"Then why didn't you want an always online DRM box when Don Mattrick gave it to you?"

you have no respect at all to answering anyone honestly. just more drivel to help your own cause. can you still not grasp the idea that gamers want some games to utilize the cloud if it can actually do things AND also not want every game or the system to be required to connect online? no you can't because you are set on your own agenda here and that is to make sure crackdown 3 doesn't gain any traction out of fear the world will end as we know it because everyone else will get onboard and single player games will cease to exist.

"It working or not is not the point of this blog."

people are realizing you don't actually have a point. you just want to gloss over how you never had any hope the cloud would do anything special and now that many are talking about it you're on full damage control.

"But in a world of Diablo 3s and Sim Citys, do you put it past developers to make single player campaigns always online? Hell, just today there was a Dying Light 2 article where Techland used the "our ideas may be too ambitious for current consoles" statement and people were like "use cloud compute." Have you played Dying Light? It's SP is vastly stronger than its MP, not to mention it's a seemless experience the way AC Unity or Watch Dogs is for MP. It uses the same campaign as SP, and the same map. So using cloud compute for Dying Light 2 effectively forces the SP to be always online. This is the problem."

once again the consumer will speak like they spoke about the original plans for the xbox one. you don't squash ideas become you think it could lead us to disaster. that way of thinking is non-productive.

"The point of this blog is that in one breath always online sucks, and in another it doesn't because a game made people's nipples hard."

it sucks for you because you don't want to give it a chance even if it does add to the experience. this is what happens when you take a position without trying it all because you persuaded yourself always online is a bad idea even if they show the potential. it's like telling a child strawberry ice cream is good but wants to stick to chocolate. is that what we have here, a grown adult with his arms folded and shaking his head, 'no i don't want to try it. you can't make me'?

have fun living in the past.

Concertoine2131d ago (Edited 2131d ago )

The 8th gen's sorest spot is the lack of innovation, and while cloud computing deserved initial skepticism as it didn't demonstrate itself for 3 years, there's no reason to hate on it now other than bitter pessimism.

You don't seem informed as to to the nature of the tech, either.
"when the game has to contend with real user conditions and not a conference demonstration"
The game is targetting a 2-4 megabyte per second connection, as explained by the devs. Thats a very accessible speed, MS would be dumb to sell a AAA game to a minority of super connections.

Also, what's with the always online talk! The single player supposedly works like the older games, and lacks the cloud computing perks. Of course the multiplayer is online only. What's the big deal here, again?

Volkama2131d ago (Edited 2131d ago )

Hypocrisy doesn't seem to be the right word at all.

For a lot of people the Crackdown tech demo gave them a clearer understanding of what cloud compute could do. Changing your mind based on new information is not hypocrisy. Stupidity in some cases, sure.

There is also a large swathe of people hoping to see cloud compute widely adopted for multiplayer only, and still maintaining that it shouldn't be used for single player. That's not hypocrisy either, as it is consistent with the view that console should work offline.

And of course there are people like me, who would have accepted always-online back then and would still accept it now. Again you might want to paint me with the stupid brush, but you can't really call me a hypocrite.

There are probably a small number of hypocrites out there reciting whatever opinions they are manipulated into, but I would think/hope that's a small minority.

NewMonday2123d ago

CD3 seems like more of a proof of concept demo, the absent thing was both game design and creative design , is there a point to destroying something objective wise?

real world material are made of several different things and break apart differently, in CD3 everything seems to be made out of cardboard.

CD3 world looks very digital, more like the world in Tron, not an immersive believable world like you expect sandbox games to be.

also why don't other MS 1st party games use it, because its just practical and just gets in the way.

donthate2119d ago (Edited 2119d ago )

Oh gawd!

This blog is so full of drivel. Xbox Live Cloud Compute is here to stay. Deal with it!

If consumers demand it, or if consumers are fine with Cloud Compute in single player games, it will come too. What is the big deal?

If consumers don't want it in single player games, it will go away. Consumers now have a choice. What is the point of constructing an argument generalizing gamers and reaching a BS conclusion.

Xbox Live Cloud Compute is real, and in a couple of years the competitors will also join in. This will be the gold standard for online multiplayer games.

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 2119d ago
spicelicka2124d ago (Edited 2124d ago )

This pretty much summarizes my thoughts as well.

"So what was the point of arguing with Microsoft about an always online console if you're going to then demand an always online console?"

I don't see anyone demanding an always online console, where did you get that statement from? The whole purpose of the argument was being FORCED to have an always online console.

You can have an always online GAME without having an always online CONSOLE. It comes down to player's choice. If it's incorporated in a game, it's up to the player if they want that game or not.

This is a completely redundant argument against crackdown here. The only portion of the game that's "always online" is multiplayer, which is always online anyway....

Rookie_Monster2132d ago (Edited 2132d ago )

"Simple. Always Online.

Demanding 3rd party developers use cloud compute is demanding that every game be always online. But... wait a minute? Does anyone remember what the Xbox One's original vision was when it launched?"

What does that got to do with Crackdown where they clearly said The multiplayer portion will be the only mode to uses the cloud compute and there is still an offline campaign as well. Third party can just adopt to this philosophy and make their online portion of the game, which of course needs players to be online anyways, to feature such features. Example, Battlefield 5 can have a regular offline campaign while when online during MP, Battlefield online can add more enemies and AI, massive destruction and physics.

How is that DRM and ALWAYS online? Stop trying to move the goalposts when we know from day one that is always going to be the case with this technology.

also, this really contradict your own argument when you said this.

you said
Queue Incoming Arguments
=========================
"There's still going to be single player, offline campaigns. Crackdown 3 has one."

"But you don't care about them. You're demanding cloud compute be used, likely even in the single player campaigns, which necessitates always online because you can't use cloud compute offline. "

So if you are claiming "we xbox players don't care about offline single player campaign", then what is the issue here? They want to play Online MP games or the MP portion of the game like Destiny or COD MP, guess what? They have to BE ONLINE TO PLAY IT and it just so happen it is in the same space as cloud compute. Really confusing argument you got there Dragonknight.

DragonKnight2132d ago

"What does that got to do with Crackdown..."

I'm sorry but you can't be serious. You can't have asked the dumbest possible question here. I would tell you to re-read my blog but obviously that wouldn't help. This has to do with Crackdown because people are demanding the use of cloud compute thanks to Crackdown. Understand now?

"How is that DRM and ALWAYS online? Stop trying to move the goalposts when we know from day one that is always going to be the case with this technology."

You just answered your own question. Next.

"So if you are claiming "we xbox players don't care about offline single player campaign", then what is the issue here? They want to play Online MP games or the MP portion of the game like Destiny or COD MP, guess what? They have to BE ONLINE TO PLAY IT and it just so happen it is in the same space as cloud compute. Really confusing argument you got there Dragonknight."

No, that's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that you don't care that SP games would require always online to use cloud compute. All you care about is cloud compute itself. Geez, it's like you didn't even read the blog at all.

Rookie_Monster2132d ago (Edited 2132d ago )

"This has to do with Crackdown because people are demanding the use of cloud compute thanks to Crackdown. Understand now?"

Dude, you are completely not understanding the context or just spinning it as you know better what I was trying to say. I was using Crackdown as an example of a game, the only game for that matter, that set an example to third party developers that MS is NOT mandating "ALWAYS ONLINE IN EVERY GAME" like you are claiming. Battlefield 5 is such an example I had just used in which they can play the game without being online as well, just like Crackdown 3. Please re-read your false assumption of "always online" with what I'd said regarding Crackdown again and you shall see the full meaning of its context.

"No, that's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that you don't care that SP games would require always online to use cloud compute. All you care about is cloud compute itself. Geez, it's like you didn't even read the blog at all."

single player only game, well that is another topic, isn't it?

You keep using term like ""DEMANDING" 3rd party developers use cloud compute is demanding that every game be always online."

LOL, MS is not demanding them to use cloud compute, it is an option for them to use it. Big difference. Again, you are way out of Context.

Also, that lead directly into the article regarding "Parity and the cloud".

you said, "Now the Xbox One fans are starting to use the "#NoParity" in their comments and saying the PS4 is holding back the Xbox One." Read the article again, all the comments are pertaining to "if 3rd party has that option to make their MP portion of their games better" then why not take advantage of it. Again, you are twisting words and what the context are.

and here is my replay to such article:
http://n4g.com/news/1772473...

Rookie_Monster 1d 20h ago
"Why not? If MS is willing to provide the technology, technical support for developers to use their Azure servers to make these games better, why not use it to their full advantage and get gaming moving beyond just prettier graphics like we had been seeing every generation."

"Now, of course we don't expect the single player campaign to be any different than any other versions on other platforms but adding physics based destruction or offloading resources to allow other additions to MP mode is what these developers should be thinking about on the XB1 version of the game."
#4

That is consistent with what I am saying here as well as many other Xbox gamers too. Does that sound like hypocrisy to you?

DragonKnight2132d ago

Who the hell said anything about MS demanding anything? Geez, you really didn't read a single word I said. I'm wasting time talking to you as it would literally take forever to explain to you what I'm saying because you just refuse to pay attention.

Rookie_Monster2132d ago (Edited 2132d ago )

@Dragon ^^^

"Who the hell said anything about MS demanding anything? Geez, you really didn't read a single word I said."

Hmmm,....
This Blog by Dragonknight:
"Simple. Always Online.

DEMANDING 3rd party developers use cloud compute is DEMANDING that every game be always online. But... wait a minute? Does anyone remember what the Xbox One's original vision was when it launched?

Hmm... Let me think.... "

And yes, I get what you are saying in Your claim that xbox fans are the ones demanding and not necessarily MS but that is not what they are saying but just using Crackdown as a guideline of how the MP portion of the game should be able to use those same cloud processing resources to make them better if it is available. That is not demanding all games to be online when only the MP portion of those games are affected, like you are claiming us xbox fans are saying. Totally different than the 2013 DRM situation.

DragonKnight2132d ago

Read the blog again. Read it 50 times if you have to. You will NEVER see me saying MS demanding anything.

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