XBL may not be what its worth......

Well I just wanted to start this off by saying that I am not a fanboy and I am only suggesting a certain thought or question that came to mind. Personally I feel that live is not worth it for personal reasons although I am not trying to downplay miscrosoft at all. So lets begin shall we?

So according to our friendly neighborhood microsoft they reported that they have 17 million gold members subscribed to their live service. Now thats an impressive number if you consider thats 50 dollars from each of those gold members which most likely reaps in huge amounts of profits. Now of course we don't know how these numbers have fluctuated as they were announced a good time ago. Although since microsoft have been pretty quiet about them I can only guess that they haven't significantly grown. There probaly in a 17-20 mil margin by now.

Now thats all nice and dandy but consider this. Microsoft reported having sold 27.93 mil by january of 2009. Add this with the current NPD data this would put them at about 28-29 mil units so far. Now thats great but as we don't know how much of each SKU sold but where not discussing that. I want to point out that if you compare that 29 mil to that 18-20 mil of current gold subscribers to XBL.....Thats roughly around 11 mil people of Xbox 360's fanbase not paying for the gold. Now this could be from the fact that these are worldwide numbers and that the lack of subscribers could be the fact that not everyone has a internet connection. But what if it could be the fact that a good few million people just don't think live is worth it. I mean I've known people who only bought 360 for 1 or 2 games and didn't feel that live is worth it. But if its what alot of its gold subscribers say it is the number of non gold 360's is pretty larger than I think it should be. Thats a good 30% of microsofts fanbase not paying for its globally acclaimed online service.

This could also be a combination of a bunch of things. Some people don't like subscriptions, Cost of wifi adapters may be too costly for some, Maybe people are victims of system failures, or it could be as I said earlier that not everyone has a good internet connections along with various other reasons as to why people don't have live such as region issues or IP issues.

So discuss and debate the possible reasons. No fanboy comments please.

[lh_swe]

But my main reason is if I subscibed to LIVE I would feel an obligation to play a certain amount of hours online to make the fee worthwhile and concidering that I try to keep my gaming hours to weekends and holidays LIVE is just too expensive.

[Coolrah]

Alot of people don't think paying for live is worth it as overall the ps3 offers the same for free which really baffles me. Yeah xbl is better in some ways but in some ways psn is better so each online system has its pros and cons.

Although after a bit of reading I found that the 17 million microsoft posted are not all gold members. Which means that some of that 17 million could be freeloading silver accounts. Although the number of golds may not be given out it probaly is a huge number as microsoft have made a killing off of XBL alone.

[TenSteps]

thats why I've never paid for Live I'm not one to play online as much as everyone else so why should I pay $50 to play a few times in a year, but I'm not going to judge Xbox Live nor am I going to compare it with PSN since I've never used Live so I don't have a say which is better. Like what I said the only reason I don't pay for Live is because I don't go online as much and that is why I prefer PSN because it's free thats it nothing else.

[pixelsword]

...But the value of something, and what someone values, are two different things.

My grandmother valued a clock she gave to me before she passed away, making me promise to take care of it, but it's worth probably isn't beyond fifty dollars. I now value the clock beyond all other clocks that I own because it belonged to my grandmother before she passed away. A more expensive clock will not give me that connection to my grandmother like the clock I now have, despite it's worth.

I submit that the sum total of XBL may not appear to be "worth" it if you only focus on the things that make XBL special, but it's value to a XBL user in terms of friends, experiences, and community makes it priceless to them.

Knowwhutimean?

[outlawlife]

nail on the head

experiences come to terms with the value

[ManiacMan4004]

Precisely, it's all about each individual meaning and value.

Personally I use both my 360 and PS3 to play online. But for certain games such as Call of Duty 4, I primarily use my 360 to play. It's not just because I feel a responsibility to use the service I have paid for, but it's the experience I receive while on XBL. I do not have a single friend from high school, work, or college that has a PS3. Even though PSN is a superb service and even better that it is free, I wouldn't be able to play with those I know.

Experience > all other desires

[somekindofmike]

I think comparing the value of xbox live to something like a clock with sentimental value isn't really the same, (I have my grandfathers watch) my watch could be worth as little as a penny to everybody else but me, but to me it's priceless and wouldn't sell it no matter what the price.

Xbox live is a completely different kettle of fish. it all comes down to the individual user. each user has to weigh up how much they are going to use live and then make there own decision.

My case is I have plenty of games which have good online features, but I tend to be a single player gamer, or multiplayer split screen, I tend to only sit down to play an online session about once or twice a month. fortunately I have a PS3, otherwise I just wouldn't be able to play online.

Another gamer only every play games online and practically ignore single player games, and they would be pretty stumped not to subscribe to live if they had a 360.

[Tony P]

I do most of my gaming on the PC.

Frankly, the PC and PS3's "free" net is more in line with what I'm used to. Mind, I'd kept a gold subscription active about three years after my initial receipt of my 360 (as a gift). After a while I realized my money only covers multiplayer since I didn't really use the other pay features. And since PC and 360 share so many titles, I feel as if I've missed out on very little avoiding XBL altogether.

[outlawlife]

17 million is not the number of gold subscribers

there are approximately 8-10 million gold subscribers based on data an outside firm published a few months back

as hard as it is to believe some people just have no interest in playing online

you can debate all of the reasons you want, spin anything however you want but honestly you cannot infer anything out of those numbers

Live is an option, some people use it, some don't and that is really all you can get from that

as far as it being worth it, i have no qualms about the price, i buy my memberships online from anywhere between 35-45 for 13 months and have not yet once regretted paying it and this coming from a subscriber since lives beginning on original xbox

i feel the money i pay secures development and content for the network and i havent been let down yet

every year microsoft adds new features, consistently there are great games released via the arcade, and more importantly a uniform service that remains stable

i've used psn a fair bit as well and honestly you just aren't as involved as you are on live, your friends and the community is in your face all the time, constant interaction

whereas psn you don't get that, a lot of the games are silent because people either dont have mics or don't use them

aside from home there isn't really anything to pull you together with people, and even home struggles to do that

over the years i've made a lot of real friends over xbox live, people that have actually influenced my life and i say that is worth it for me

i pay for live and i prefer live

--------------------to the author------------------------ ---

a bit of a sidenote:
the tone of this blog makes it seem rather biased against xbox, if you are really trying to convey the idea of an intelligent debate don't do the following

-refer to people who don't pay as "freeloading", it is there choice and they aren't freeloading off of anyone
-inferring conclusions from innaccurate numbers to skew the view in favor of your opinion
-saying things like "I feel that live is not worth it for personal reasons although I am not trying to downplay miscrosoft at all" when i look at your comment history and your are calling people xbots and insulting 360 fans just within the last few days

intelligent discussion is cool, but disguising a biased opinion as a discussion is not, looking at your past comments(i went through 4 pages) I honestly can't take you seriously

using phrases like "suck it xbots" in your comments, just about very single comment you have is insulting toward the 360 or its games

the people like you are the detriment of this site, ruining every conversation by spewing ridiculous hate toward an electronic device

if you hate xbox so much why even care if people think live is worth the price, i just think it is ridiculous

funny thing is you can masquerade around as being unbiased except everyone can see the history of anything you ever put on this site

i'm not sure what your motive is but good luck with it

--------------to everyone else----------------

i encourage you to go read this guys comments and to not be like this guy

post intelligently

[Anon1974]

Of the 17 million XBL subscribers in total Microsoft has only said "the majority" of those 17 million are Gold subscribers. The 8-10 million figure sounds like it's certainly possible.

So Coolrah has a point. That's almost 75% of XBL owners who don't actually play online. What gives?
The question I've always wondered is of those 30 million 360's out there, how many are still functional? That's a questions we'll never know the answer to.

An EA rep once said 50% of their launch 360's had died on them. He was quickly hushed up and EA and Microsoft launched into damage control and this was never heard about again. Kinda makes you wonder...

If there were 30 million 360's out there, wouldn't you think there'd be more people online - and don't you think sales and revenue reported by developers would reflect that there's allegedly 30% more 360's out there than PS3's instead of being practically neck and neck?

[n to the b]

I agree, Coolrah's comments have been far from bias-free. but hey, maybe he's trying to turn over a new leaf - or however the expression goes...

@darkride66: yes, the faulty console thing is downright shady. however, not sure what you're getting at with your last paragraph. if u are saying the lack of online users reflects a high # of 360 're-buys', I think you're grasping at straws - or however the expression goes...

[Anon1974]

Something seems amiss when you look at developer numbers though, and here's my best guess.

Now, we know some sales are re-buys for whatever reason. My buddy bought an arcade and slapped his harddrive on it rather then get caught in the vicious cycle of faulty console replaced by refurbed faulty console that I'm stuck in. It happens.

But that's only part of it. When a retailer like Best Buy replaces a 360 due to warranty replacement they then ship the console of to get refurbed and then they sell it through a discount store. All Microsoft would see is another 360 console out the door, paid for by the retailer. And given that research has shown that the majority of consumers deal with 3rd party warranty/returns first before manufacturers warranties - that has to also carry a big impact.

Think about it. Your 360 goes. If it's covered under the store's return policy, wouldn't you take it back there first then deal with Microsoft? How's Microsoft ever going to know about that?

[ZEEBO4LIFESTFU]

dollars a month... a homless guy could afford live.

[Persistantthug]

What MS XBOX is doing is equivalent to if MS or Apple charged you to go on the internet with your computer.

I pay for my internet connection (Comcast....bastards they are) so why do I have to pay MS for the right to use it simply because I use their Operating system?

And to add insult to the injury, as I understand it, the multiplayer network is largely peer to peer.
No one else pays to use an "OS's internet"....not PS3, not Wii, certainly not on a PC or Mac, so why should I have to pay MS 360?

Personally, I just don't see the value in that.

[INehalemEXI]

so @ that price if you played for 8 years you would have spent $384.

They actually charged my card $7.95 a month. that much dough over 8 years would be the price of a next gen system easy.

I spent $7.95 a month since 2005. Thats around 4 years. Thats $384 down the tube really since I played my PC and PS3 online mostly and in the time I owned the 360 it broke down 3 times and I traded it in after the 3rd fail. So It was not a good investment for me personally. The whole time I had this gnawing feeling that I was being ripped off.

I canceled my gold subscription last month yet this month they charged me something about the billing cycle they said ..that clearly is a rip off IMO. The 360/XBL Gold is like having a high maintenance gf that does not put out IMO.

[Anon1974]

When I bought my 360 at launch, once my 3 free months were up, 8.99 was just what they started charging me for 2 years. It wasn't until I was on some forums and someone mentioned $50 a year I said "Wait a minute, what?"
You tell me how Microsoft can justify charging monthly subscribers an extra 40%, and making that the default option when a preview card expires. I don't know if they still do this, but it certainly pissed me off.
Thankfully, 3 faulty 360 consoles caused me to rethink how I go online and I don't pay for this "service" anymore.

[outlawlife]

thats actually a rather bad analogy if you knew how xbox live worked

yes the games work peer to peer but they work peer to peer over a closed network

you pay to have access to that closed network, this is also largely the reason why the xbox does not have an internet browser

although you are hooked to an ethernet cable just like normal access the xbox 360 never actually connects to the internet at large

this why you have to download an application for netflix on 360

it connects to central servers at microsoft, nowhere else

this is primarily for security of the console

you also need to realize that even p2p games need servers and maintenance to run

the ps3 however is not closed off like the 360 since there is no real central hub, you have games with servers everywhere from in house, to at sony, to being farmed out to gamespy

the ps3 has access to the entire internet at large, some view this as a plus, others think it is extremely risky

although we havent seen a console security breach via the internet yet, i'm sure somebody is trying somewhere

microsoft is trying to keep this from happening, trying to protect things like users credit card information by closing up xbox live

they aren't charging you to use your internet, they are charging you to use their sort of intranet, it is very different

[mastiffchild]

I guess much depends on which console you prefer(to play multis on, controller preference, Whose exclusives you play/like more and where more of your buds play online)in the main. When I was having problems with my 360s I did miss out on a lot of gaming time and as a result, though I pay for my Live sub I'm not sure I get much out of it.

I think the lack of dedicated servers for big games like Gears is one of the things that annoys me when I'm paying. You see the issues with host advantage and other things and feel it could be swept away and the game have far fewer issues if they(MS or Epic-lets face it they both make enough on a game like that-not to mention what MS make from Live subs). There's more people talking which does make it feel more alive than PSN at times but, also, sometimes I wish that people had fewer headsets on Live!

I keep the sub, these days, purely to play a couple of games online(play my multis on PS3 as I like the controller better and don't worry about it having a hissy fit with me(that said the new Elite I have has been very good so far and even sounds much quieter))with a few friends either in the same boat or that don't own another console.

Also a few games have been ruined for me by cross game party chat(used to like TF2 on 360 but I kept finding either I was confusing myself talking to people outside my team or others were doing it)which is a particular little gripe of mine and will eventually come to PSN this year anyway!

Obviously I look around to find the best deal I can for Live but it would feel like better value if they simply had more games use dedicated servers. That PSN has more games that use DSs is a bit odd when it's the free service and I think we should pay less than we do for a primarily P2P service(a great one but still mainly P2P even on really big games). Then again if all your mates were playing on Live what price can you put on inclusion in the fun? I can see why people could feel it's worth the price but from an online gaming perspective(purely the main service and not extra features)it could provide more games with DSs.

[Sky Zero]

I could say the same about your blog.

[Coolrah]

First I want to thank everyone here for posting educated explanation and debating this peacefully.

@outlaw You make a good point and I was enjoying your comment until you made a personal attack against me. First why does my comment history have anything to do with "this" topic. I tried to be non fanboyish as my point wouldn't be accepted and would just be labeled as fanboy garbage as its actually something really interesting to talk about.When I called Silver Members Freeloaders I didn't mean it in a insultive way...it was a lack of better words. Sadley you can't bring something thats not good about 360 in an article and not be called biased. If it seems biased I am sorry and did not intend it to be as i've said it before. Anyway lets kick that under the bed.

P.s. sorry about the misinformation. Should have done more digging before i made the blog.

@Darkride Indeed that is a large amount of 360's either without online or may not be funcionale. I want the truth honestly

And to the discussion going on. Irregardless if microsoft is running their own type of internet. Majority of hackers are most likely working on already cracking windows 7. Plus I would think sony would be ready extremely cautious since its on the global internet and already have plans to set in motion to prevent anyone from wreaking havoc.

And to people who think I am just a raving ps3 sony fanboy. Yes in alot of aspects I am. But its only because Microsoft screwed me over so many times that I don't like them with a bitter passion. I share a similar fate of Darkride as i suffered through 4 360's.....2 to the dvd drive error which not only cost me some games but also cost me 200 dollars as they are not covered for free by the warranty. And of course the other 2 to the notorious to the RROD. So you see I am a disgruntled former 360 owner which blindly payed for live with money that could have went to more games while the PSN was right around the corner and virtually the same thing "in my opinion" and I could see the irony pulsating in every orifice of my aggravated and defeated brain.

[outlawlife]

your comment history has everything to do with this topic because the way you conduct yourself on all of the other things you posts automatically makes people not want to take you seriously

on top of the fact that your efforts to encourage debate was very much slanted against the xbox in your writing tone and intelligent and unbiased chance at thought provoking was immediately thrown away

i'm not attacking you i'm saying that perhaps you should conduct yourself in a more mature manner if you want to be taken seriously

[Jinxstar]

Coolrah I think Outlaws point is sound. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I am a huge Sony fanboy. I really don't care though what some guys on the intervbez think about that. I feel like I do present a good argument and very few can counter my points. I am a fanboy with knowledge and ammo unlike many others who use made up facts and can't back up what they say.

If you want to be a fanboy then be one. nothing wrong with that. Hell see my blog history you might like my "Price wars" blog. Nothing wrong with a good ol smack down so long as you can back it up. Why would you ask for a unbiased, intellectual conv anyway on the internet.

1st rule of the internet. Real person+ Anonymity+ Audience= total douche bag.

[cpt_kaos]

Mate I hear that I also suffered 4 dud 360's and since having the PS3 I just laugh when I hear some desperate dude in EB trying to sell a 360.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

I didn't see any good arguments in your blog going either way, just Sophoclean questions, so I'm guessing your main purpose was to invoke discussion.

I own both consoles, but I don't use my Xbox much at all, one of the main reasons being that I have to pay for online play. On top of the flat fee for XBL Gold, I would have to buy that ridiculously over priced WiFi dongle, or opt for a cheap bridge adapter. A lot of people who don't know how to debate, always come back with the "you get what you pay for" argument. My problem with that is I get included WiFi with my PS3, along with free online play. Even if I did subscribe to XBL, I would never use Netflix, I would never download any movies/TV shows, I would probably rarely take part in those special gaming nights, yadda yadda. So, what about people like me, who just want to straight game online without all the bells and whistles?

I'll admit, PSN looks very bare by comparison, but why should I have to pay for all the extras of XBL if I don't have intentions on using them? There should be some way to meet halfway instead of going all or nothing. To be fair, PSN is missing crucial [XBL] features such as cross game chat and friend parties, but those are coming, and Sony isn't going to change the "fee" of PSN. On top of that, some of these missing features are overlooked because of the free service and the dedicated servers. Honestly, there are certain games I would like to play with my friends online on XBL, but I haven't felt pressed to make that move, especially when the vast majority of my gaming is on PS3 anyway.

[outlawlife]

the vast majority of games on psn are p2p just like live

live has 2 setups available to developers

p2p and dedicated

most developers choose to use the p2p setup because it is easy and low maintenance

there are games on live that have dedicated servers, unfortunately those games aren't very good

as for people like you, my best advice is pray for your favorite game to go free to play on silver on occasion as they do sometimes

i think 2 levels of service differentiation is enough, they don't need a middle ground

if you really want to play online collect free month and 48 hour cards from games you buy and use them when you want to play or turn on your PC

[KwietStorm_BLM]

That's my whole point though. It's not that big of a deal that I have "missed out" on gaming on XBL since not renewing my subscription (which I didn't pay for to begin with). If I didn't have a PS3, then that would likely be different, because then I would feel more pressured to subscribe. I'm not going to waste my time picking up temporary cards, because I game all the time, and I don't even rent games, so having temp online play isn't for me.

Sometimes I feel like Xbox has been a waste altogether for me, since I've just been sitting around waiting for Alan damn Wake all this time, and I believe every game I have owned for the system, I could've just got on PC anyway.

[peeps]

Live does offer a good service but....

I'd just like to be able to play my games online. People always debate it's features such as cross game chat etc... and thats great if you use it, but for me, i'd just love to turn my 360 on and play some games online without having to pay. I've used cross game chat once, never used netflix etc. The only really good feature that i do use, is how it's integrated into all games i.e. i can join a friend on any other game he's playing just by selecting to join and popping the disk in. This is a feature that makes life on psn hard at times.

In general though, from my personal use, i'd be quite happy to have minimal features but be able to play games online at no extra cost.

[Coolrah]

Ok I may have misinterpretted your post then outlaw. It just seemed to me that it was a jab but now that I read it over I may have sligtly overreacted. No harm done.

Now to xbox live. Where not denouncing that its a good service or not. I am saying is it worth it. I mean just over this weekend me and a friend played his 360 basicly all weekend. Everytime we got invited to a party we basicly left afterwards and it was annoying trying to talk people on out team in halo or L4D and in the party. Its a nice feature but one I never really used. On the flip side I love that you could send voice messages. instead of text.

And to outlaw again. Yeah majority of games on psn are p2p. But its only a 1 time thing. I mean i'll admit i've always hated subscription based games...I mean I love the fact that I don't have to give out money every month just so I can fully use my console and play with my friends. That just bugs me that I am still paying for something I already forked out over 200 dollars for. And then on top of that its not even reliable? Thats too much of a risk for me.

[peeps]

Something to add. How come games for windows live is free but xbox live isn't?? i log in with my same live account to play Dawn of War 2 and can play online despite being a Silver member! so why charge people for the same service just cus it's on the 360?

[peeps]

actually i just wish that no game has to suffer windows live! i was just playing dow2 having a great 3v3 battle and i get dc'd from live but my internet connection is fine!!! ffs soz just needed my rant lol

[cpt_kaos]

Well my experience with live and PSN Network is that Live is not worth it.

I want lag I'll game on the pc.

PSN being Free is a huge bonus plus my experience has been the PSN Network is vastly superior in performance as in like little lag if any at all and much faster downloads via there PSN store.

PSN FTW.

[Hudahudahuda]

As far as lag, Yeah I agree PSN almost has none.

As far as download speeds I have to admot they really are slow. PSN is really at a disadvantage here. It takes forever to download demo's and updating games takes a looong time. It's definitly not as fast as PC or live.

It took me 2 hours to download Killzone 2 demo

[Steyene]

Thing is that, PSN seems dead. But it is probably because it is about 6 years behind Live. Which would explain why the user base, hasn't picked up as much on the mics.

I have been using Live since Halo 2 came out, I am an Australian so lag is going to happen iregardless of whether or not I play on PSN or Live. Why do I like live, because of the experiences that I have had with it. Hell one of the guys I game online with almost everyday and I meet on Live in Halo 2 several years back.

Give PSN a few more years, and the lag will build as the user base expands.

[outlawlife]

in the varying times i played psn the competition also didn't seem to be there

on xbox live i'm an above average player on cod4, relatively average on WaW

the times I've played on psn i've totally blown people away opn both games

i'm not saying this is a whole across psn but to me xbl presents more of a challenge

the lack of trash talk on psn also takes away from the fun, sure xbl is filled with racist 12 year olds and homophobes but there is always that one guy who is good at running his mouth and he ends up being rather entertaining

i have yet to encounter that on psn either

[spunnups]

I had a 360, then quickly found out about all the extras I was obligated to pay for. Battery packs, WiFi adapter, upgraded overpriced hard drives, XBL yearly expenses, RRoD, and Scratched Discs (RIP Bioshock, Gears of WAr, and Dead Rising)

Now I am a proud PS3 owner and I will NEVER go back. My Lil Bro has taken over my 360 and he has had 2 RRoD's in the last year. Thank god that piece of garbage is out of my hands forever.

[outlawlife]

i dont understand how you are obligated to pay for any of those things, none of those are required for the machine to function, and nobody forced you to buy any of them

they are extras, they cost extra

i have had my 360 since late 2006 and i still have over 10gigs left on my hard drive

recharger packs comes packaged with most extra controllers (if you bother looking), not to mention any double A battery works including rechargeables

and there are much cheaper alternatives to the official wifi adapter, even though i still don't game online over wireless, too much speed gets dropped for my taste, the option is there you just have to educate yourself

also if you would have called support about your first scratched disc instead of putting more games into a faulty drive they would have replaced the games

i know several people who have had their games and drives replaced free of charge after having this happen (you send the old disc, they send you a new one and usually a free month of live)

i think perhaps you just want to complain but that is only my opinion

i can understand having a negative opinion toward a company because of experiences but when you dont go through the proper channels to get those experiences resolved then i cannot sympathize

i had a warranty dispute with ms that lasted several months but i still managed to get it resolved and i was rewarded for my troubles by receiving unparalleled service, free goods, and a personal follow up by a microsoft executive to make sure i was taken care of

compared to what i ahve gone through with similar situations with other companies, sony included, i'm not going to complain

if you idly sit by and let a company walk on you that is your mistake, if you are a responsible consumer and go through the proper channels to have your issue resolved then you can fault whoever you want

i don't know what channels you went through but i'm relatively certain you didn't go about it the correct way just by your tone

[Coolrah]

@Huda Thats weird because download speeds for me are usually relatively fast. If something is dling slow then I cancel it and re-dl it and it goes at a much faster speed. It could be my internet conn is just really good so meh or could be your region?

@outlaw Maybe its just you but I've had some great times on both psn and Xbl. Probaly more so on psn as thats my primary gaming console. Followed by PC games.Also I find trash talkers are usually kids who haven't hit puberty. I don't mind a good laugh but alot of times those kind of people are annoying and usually get muted. Plus I have more fun with friends anyway. I mean the Clan matches we have on PSN are truly epic and even some of the random matches i've found people that were challenging so its just based on a persons personal experiences.
Also Spunnup probaly felt obligated as alot of people felt that they needed to buy all the extra peripherals for them to have the full gaming experience when they really didn't. I mean I've know people who spent around 1k on their elites ranging from repairs to extra peripherals. Then they wonder how I've only spent a little over 500 for my 60 gb...

[outlawlife]

just because somebody buys a bunch of extras peripherals doesn't make the console inferior, and because you've bought so little doesn;t make your ps3 superior

anyone could easily go out ad buy a bunch of stuff for their ps3 and make the same point

the only thing i've ever bought for my 360 is an extra controller and i don't feel as if i'm missing anything at all, nor do i feel obligated to buy more extras just because they are available

that mindset is more the flaw of the person, not the console

[Gun_Senshi]

Why did MS have to pull the fee for PC? Because its inferior to free stuff on PC. They are monopoly on console so you MUST pay to play.

[II Necroplasm II]

Gun_Senshi the expert.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

For a person who pirates his 360 games I find this extra funny.. You won't even pay the people who make the games you play so I guess I'm not surprised you don't find XBL of any worth.

I just wish I could be there when the Karma train catches up to you and it will.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

"XBL may not be what its worth......"

Coming from someone who doesn't even own the console..

wow!

(looks at this droids comment history)

another wow!

It's worth the $4 a month easily and this is from someone not talking out of their arse and actually owns both systems and can compare.

I'm not going to bother going into detail to convince someone who has a history of 360 trolling.

[peeps]

why do you think we have to pay for live on the 360 though but not live on the pc...?

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Because Games for Windows Live and Xbox Live are different in the ways they are supported. GFW is like a scaled down version of what you get on XBL. For what MS offers with GFW it isn't much beyond what the free services offer and MS knows it can't charge for it, if they want to stay competitive.

[peeps]

i guess i just wish there was a games for live equivelent on the 360 (which silver sort of is)

Really i think silver should allow the bare minimum (like gfw) but should allow you to play games online.

[Defectiv3_Detectiv3]

P2P networking - Host advantage, more unstable servers, less players per server

File Size Limitations - MS is cheap, they don't want to pay the costs to store lengthy files on their servers. A lot of times all this means is that they break up content and you end up paying more for it(I can buy the sega collections on PSN, on XBL I have to buy the games seperately)

MS Points - Why can't you just buy something for a cash value, points are a rip off, they make it so you have to pay more to buy something. Because you have to buy points in specified increments, you usually have to spend more to get the points.

Internet Nazi's - They are so strict when it comes to screen names and things of that nature. People I know are constantly getting their screen names rejected. My buddy got his rejects just because it said "Get Lifted"

Ultimately, I just don't agree w/ a 50$ charge to play online. Online should be a selling point for the software, not the hardware that does little to utilize it in the first place.

Sure, 50$ a year might not seem like a lot, but I would rather spend that money on a game or a rental. That's like 1/2 a gamefly subscription.

[JOLLY1]

First you say it is p2p they you say it has servers. Most all Live games are p2p with a handful of exceptions. Most psn games are p2p with a handful of exceptions. I know you want to believe that psn has no p2p, but that just isn't true. Get over it. On the points side. You don't pay more for an item. You buy bulk points that have the exact same value no matter when you spend them. I am sorry if it is hard for you to do the math that 80 points equals a dollar. I realize math is hard, but seriously?

[Defectiv3_Detectiv3]

PSN games use dedicated servers. Warhawk, R2, Killzone, etc.

The only XBL game that uses dedicated servers is Frontlines FOW, and thats the only way they could achieve 32 players.

99% of XBL games use p2p networking. Which is why games like Gears have host adavantage, and is also why when someone w/ a sh1tty connection gets on a server it lags everyone else out.

[JOLLY1]

Halo, All EA games, Forza, PGR, Etc. use dedicated servers. Most first parties on both systems are dedicated. I know that makes you sad, but it's the truth. Oh and the reason that Gears had issues when it first launched is because it didn't have enough dedicated servers....owned. That was funny kid. On an interesting side note... Every server has a host. THere is a host for every game on the internet, dedicated servers or not.

[Defectiv3_Detectiv3]

XBL uses P2P dumb@ss. That's why the servers will technically never go down - as long as somebody is playing the games. It uses the best players connection as host.

PSN uses dedicated servers. That's why you can't play socom for the PS2 anymore, they took the servers down. If it were a P2P network, it wouldn't matter, because technically the players form the server.

And if all XBL servers are dedicated then why can't XBL games ever exceed 16-24 players? It's not like Halo 3 uses a lot of the consoles power. They could easily up the amount of players but their network structure couldn't handle it.

[peeps]

Even if a game is p2p it still needs servers that you log in to cus they track your stats, list available rooms etc etc etc. Just because a player becomes the 'host' of a room, doesn't mean servers arn't needed lmao

can't reply anyway though cus you're out of bubbles. i wonder why...

[theonlylolking]

I think that it is worth either 10$ a year or 20$ a year not 50.I think that what you get for Wii is how free should be. PS3 offers more than free it offers 5$ a year. 360 offers 10$ a year not 50. This is why I have not bought a 360 its because I dont want to pay for online if I can play online on my PS3 with near same quality for online. I have too say you get more on XBL and its user friendly but just not worth 50 smackers.