Amalur dev: Xbox 360 "significantly easier" to develop for than PS3

OXM UK: "But current gen consoles in general are "mature and stabilised".

[GribbleGrunger]

after 5 years we're still getting this? aren't they embarrassed to make these statement yet?

[dirigiblebill]

If it's still true, why not say it? I'd argue that discussing this stuff now is vital if developers are to get what they want from next gen consoles.

[WolfLeBlack]

Agreed. The general agreement seems to be that the Xbox 360 is the easier console to develope for, which is why it's the lead developement console for most titles. So it's logical to assume that Microsoft have done something right, something which other console manafacturers can learn from for the next generation.

[GribbleGrunger]

yeah, but not now. earlier on (maybe the first 2 to 3 years) yes, but devs really can't keep falling on this argument... not after what we've seen done on the PS3 and the other multiplat devs out there that don't seem to have a problem. it's almost as if that very statement is what's holding them back:

'we don't have to make an effort because all we have to say is the PS3 is hard to program for and everyone will agree'

and so they just sit on their lazy arses and chug out endless minor updates to struggling engines... do you agree Bethesda?

[Baka-akaB]

most devs managing fine on ps3 now doesnt change the fact that it's still easier on 360 .

They caught up on ps3 , but it's still easier

[BrutallyBlunt]

Well after 5 years the Playstation 3 is still getting weaker versions. Skyrim is one example. We all know the Playstation 3 is more advanced, as it should be since it costs more to manufacture and also came out a year after the XBOX 360. However that means very little if developers need to spend extra time on the hardware. If the Playstation 3 was setting the world on fire, with hardware sales much like what happened with the Playstation 2 last generation, then it would have been the lead platform again.

[gamingdroid]

@GribbleGrunger

***and so they just sit on their lazy arses and chug out endless minor updates to struggling engines... do you agree Bethesda?***

If you know anything about game development, you would know they aren't "lazy". By software industry standards game developers get worked the most and tend to burn out far more than business software.

***yeah, but not now. earlier on (maybe the first 2 to 3 years) yes, but devs really can't keep falling on this argument...***

because you know the platform better doesn't mean the issues don't remain.

@LevelHead

***We all know the Playstation 3 is more advanced, as it should be since it costs more to manufacture and also came out a year after the XBOX 360.***

This is a case of more advanced in the wrong places! The PS3 if balanced, would have been an excellent performer. Instead, Sony did multiple crucial mistakes so instead you paid extra for essentially wasted resources.

An example is, what use is super fast video RAM, when the bottleneck isn't the speed, but the quantity?

[ChrisW]

Argh! Are any of you developers? Have any of you developed for both the PS3 and Xbox360? No? Then you plain and simply do not know what you're talking about if you say that developers are lame for using this excuse. How so? Believe it or not, there are numerous fields of studies in programing and programing for the PS3 is only ONE of them.

BTW, I'm not a developer, either. However, when someone who has an expertise in said field, I, like many of you should, have a tendency to assume that they know what they're talking about.

[EDIT]
@LevelHead,
When concerning many types of technology, 'more advanced' typically means easier to work with than its predecessors.

[Brosy]

Smart move by MS. Listening to developers when designing the 360 has really turned into a strenth of the platform. This isn't new news either. It has been known throughout this genneration that the 360 handles multiplats better than the PS3. Even 5-6 years later you have games that perform better on 360. Skyrim and BF3 are just two of the newest examples. All this gives people a reason to like the 360 over the PS3

Why be afraid to talk about it, it's just the truth.

[ZBlacktt]

Funny how the best looking games exclusive are on the PS3 then huh? Sure you are well aware of the titles. Why is it the PS3 gets Game of the Year games too. If one happens to be on the XBox. That means the game is a multi platform. When a Dev say's easier. They mean one of two things. One, lazy and want plug in play code. Two, over their head in skill. Something PS3 dev's have no issue with ever since MGS4.

[-Alpha]

@Gribble

Of course they still say it now, not everybody has got the chance to suffer through developing for the PS3 and know it as much as other devs have. What other games on the PS3 have these devs worked on? Even if a developer spends years working on the PS3, it doesn't change the fact that the 360 is still easier to develop for. I see no reason for them to be embarrassed in stating their experiences.

@Black

It takes "skill" to develop for a much harder hardware? Developers are lazy for struggling to deal with unnecessarily difficult hardware? Really? As far as I know, the game has been working fine on both consoles

It's a little silly to think that developers who are focused on making multiplatforms are supposed to be able to know the PS3 in and out like exclusive developers who work on nothing BUT the PS3.

Sony pushes their first party hard to make sure they understand the PS3, but that doesn't mean it's not a pain to develop for or that if they jumped ship they would find the 360 easier to develop for.

I can care less about "superior graphics" when most games this gen suffer from long dev cycles and lack of gameplay content. The shiniest of PS3 games are linear, corridor setpiece games-- amazing games, but some people act as if the PS3 can pull of Battlefield 3 with 64 players. Games like Kingdom of Amalur that have bigger worlds and more content are just as good as the best looking exclusives, it's too bad graphics has to be such a focus for some.

MS, from the start, has done a great job in making their product easy to develop for, it's something Sony needs to learn from. I'm tired of people passing blame to the developers all the time and accusing them of being lazy or stupid, or as if they are somehow supposed to find the PS3 easier to develop for than the 360 one day.

[snipes101]

Even if there are developers out there now that are good at developing games on the PS3, that does not mean it is easy. It just means that those developers are good at a difficult task.

Wasn't it Naughty Dog that came out and said they DONT want another Playstation to come out because it took them so long to get used to the PS3? They're a first party developer for Sony and they are on record saying they dont want another Playstation yet? What more proof do you need?

Found the story btw: http://ps3.ign.com/articles...

[bozebo]

"something which other console manafacturers can learn from for the next generation. "

It's not about choice/decisions/learning, it's about technical possibilities and partnerships in business.
ms had ATI chips which had just gone unified, for sony: nvidia chips hadn't gone unified yet so to get the extra graphcal performance lots of processing is offloaded to the cell cores.

Next gen I could make a calculated guess that all consoles will likely be easy to develop for, as a given.

[afterMoth]

The PS3 is hard to program for than an Atari 2600 as well. The results are still the same with PS3 having the best games, with the best graphics sound and gameplay :D

[sikbeta]

Late to the party bros! It's been like that since the beginning of this Gen :P

[ziggurcat]

@ gamingdroid:

with myself having worked in the games industry for a little more than 3 years - devs are, in fact, really lazy.

the argument that the PS3 is "harder" to develop for simply does not hold any water anymore. after nearly 6 years, they should have a pretty good grasp on how to develop for the PS3 (and that's not even including the time devs had access to the PS3 prior to the release of the system!).

there's no doubt that it's not the same architecture as the X360, but that doesn't mean it's *harder*, it's just *different*.

if devs keep whining about how "hard" it is to develop for the PS3, then maybe they should either go back to school and learn a new career or get better at their job.

[Shepherd 214]

No one is saying that better games arent made because the PS3 is harder to develop for, they are just saying that since the 360 is basically like a PC hardware-wise, its easier to make games for and next gen consoles should keep it in mind.

[portal_2]

@Brosy - Wrong, Skyrim runs like shit on both platforms. BF3 on PS3 is also the better of the two, get your facts right before diarrhoea mouthing.

[ngecenk]

no it does not 100% true.

i remember dice devs saying that developers troubled developing on ps3 is just because their code is too 360 oriented. developing both from the very beginning concurrently will solve the problem. but 'small' or 'lazy' dev wouldn't care that much on ps3 because ps3 'would sold less'.

besides, its 2012, there are dozens if not hundreds of papers on the internet helping this problem.

[dedicatedtogamers]

In other news, the SNES is significantly easier to develop for than the Wii U.

While developers are trying to say something good about the 360, they're actually just dissing its hardware power. They're pretty much admitting the 360 has weaker hardware.

[Fishy Fingers]

Nice spin.

The PC is the most powerful platform and also far easier to develop for. So....

By your logic is Sony must be dissing their own Vita hardware by saying its easy to develop for? Right?

Think first...

[Pillville]

Actually, all SNES games were programmed in assembler language.

I would MUCH rather develop a Wii U game (C++) than a SNES game.

Take a look at the source code for a simple Tic-Tac-Toe game for SNES:

http://wiki.superfamicom.or...

[BrutallyBlunt]

@ Fishy Fingers

Of course it's a spin by dedicatedtogamers, just look through his post history. How he came up with that username is beyond me. After reading his comments one would think his username would be dedicatedtobeingafanboy.

Sony is actually starting to listen as Vita is a well designed system that is much more developer friendly. I would assume the PS4 will also cater to developers much more than the PS2 and PS3 did.

@WitWolfy

That's not entirely true. The Playstation 3 hardware has its RAM split as well which further complicates things. The bluray drive is also a slower drive so read speeds will have an affect too. This is why so many games on the Playstation 3 require mandatory installs.

[WitWolfy]

Only reason Xbox 360 is easier to develop on is because it runs on Power PC hardware. The same hardware a everyday computer exists of....

I rest my case

[gamingdroid]

@WitWolfy

***Only reason Xbox 360 is easier to develop on is because it runs on Power PC hardware. The same hardware a everyday computer exists of.... ***

If you know anything about the history of the Xbox (and subsequently the Xbox 360), you would know that the console was designed to be easy to develop for. MS constantly touted prior the 360's release how content is to be the center and that they didn't want developers to hamper their development by dealing with technical details.

Xbox dev tools are practically universally praised, and MS approach has fundamentally changed the industry.

Even Sony now admits and aspire to making the PS Vita the easiest to develop for.

[Pillville]

@WitWolfy
WRONG. Everyday computers use Intel (and Intel compatible) processors.

Power PC chip in the Xbox is pretty much the same as the main processor in PS3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

The difficultly of the PS3 comes from the SPUs design. It's made to take very specific kinds of small data packets, arranged in a very certain way, and do very certain calculations on it.
http://www.insomniacgames.c...

[YodaCracker]

Well said, Fishy Fingers. Bubbles+!

[Fishy Fingers]

Embarrassing is someone without any development knowledge calling an actual game developer "lazy" so they can try and save their little box of plastic/silicone some face.

Move on, the PS3 is more difficult to develop for, even Sony admitted it, it doesnt need defending anymore...

[GribbleGrunger]

'save there little box of plastic'? you know, sometimes people say things because they want to, not just to defend something. it IS embarrassing and IMO it is lazy to say this now. it's got nothing to do with the fact it's a Sony machine. not everyone on here is twelve you know

[Fishy Fingers]

Then that my friend, just makes you ingorant. As your knowledge in said field is? Nothing?

But hey, your probably right, the dudes making the games are the lazy ones, the dudes sat at home moaning over the interent, we're the real go getters right? LOL...

Eventually, you talk enough BS, you begin to believe it.

[gillri]

PC more easy to develop for? news to me

you do realise the vast amount of configurations makes PC an absolute pain to develop for? Hence is awful optimisation for every PC multi-plat realsed this gen? even your precious guru john Carmack said that

[Fishy Fingers]

Your talking optimising your software, I'm just talking about up and running, pure ease of running said software.

And in all honesty, if that is the one point of mine you've been able to question, I've not really done that bad have I because its rather irrelevant anyway as we're actually talking console vs. console. It was just a simple way to show there is NO correlation between raw power and development difficulty. Or that unfamiliar hardware architectures make you "lazy", basically the usual PS3 N4G shout.

[DragonKnight]

I think there is a big difference between "difficult" and "different." If you look at the devs, first and third party, who have made amazing games (multiplat or not) on the PS3, they don't talk about the PS3 being difficult to develop for or at least not anymore.

The 360 was designed to be familiar for devs. Power PC configurations and programming, stuff they've done for years already. But when that technology was new, it was also "difficult" for them too. All new or different tech will be hard the first time you try it, especially in comparison to stuff you already know and are used to.

The PS3 isn't hard to develop for, it's just different. If you haven't made a game on the PS3 yet, it will seem like a daunting task. But talk to the devs who've made incredible experiences on the console and learn from their experience with it. They don't talk about the PS3 being difficult anymore because they've passed the hurdles and have become used to it. Just like they had the time to get used to the programming that's behind the 360's platform since they've been using it for years.

[PimpDaddy]

You go through the history of the past 5-6 years and you can find anywhere on the internet that multiplication developers have issues programming for the PS3 vs the 360. Maybe it has become easier over time but it is proven when developing for both consoles that the 360 is easier and thus cheaper to develop for.

Now in the case of Sony's First Party Studios then yes they can say the PS3 is easy to program for because that is the only platform they have to make games for. Therefore they have no reason to compare. Besides it's not in there best interest to make Soy look inferior to Microsoft in any way...

Spin it however you want but in this case different=difficult.

[kaveti6616]

"The PS3 isn't hard to develop for, it's just different."

Each SPU in the Cell requires its own compiler and debug unit.

The 360 dev kit has one compiler that automatically splits up tasks among the 3 cores of the Xenon CPU.

Basically, it takes 6 times more work to get game code running on the PS3 as it does on 360.

[360GamerFG]

Some facts don't change just because it is now 5 years later. Even if they've come up with ways to get the best out of the ps3, it doesn't change the fact that they don't have to jump through as many hoops to get the same out of the 360

[Play2Win]

It's just a matter of the right knowledge. That' why we see such great results according to exclusives on PS3.

[spenn2010]

I agree with Gribble. Why dont we hear top notch game makers like Naughty Dog make excuses? Why are they able to make high quality games along with Gorilla games and other non 1st party devs?

You usually see these articles appear when a game a maker has subpar reviews for a game that was hyped (xbox website). A hack n slash watered down RPG with cartoony nintendo wii GFX shouldn't have been that hard for these professional game makers compared to what has been pulled off for the past freaking 5 years.

[Frankfurt]

Amalur has 35 positive reviews and 4 mixed. Zero negative. You've just destroyed your own argument.

[-Alpha]

Sony owns ND and GG, you really think they are going to talk bad about the Sony hardware? We've heard enough to know that Sony's hardware is notoriously difficult for developers, calling them lazy or ignorant and then praising Sony-owned developers who are paid to utilize only the PS3 doesn't change the facts. There's more bias in accepting what Sony developers say than 3rd party developers-- nor have I heard Sony developers say that working on the PS3 is a piece of cake

[DragonKnight]

@Alpha: Your entire comment is massively flawed. For one, if even the Sony execs themselves have come out and discussed the potential difficulties of their own hardware, what would be stopping 1st party devs from doing it? And for 2, your "paid to use only PS3 hardware" assumes that that's the only kind of programming said devs know how to use. You understand that all game programming starts off the same and then is optimized for the platform it's going to be on right? That means that ND and GG likely know how to make games for the 360, so why wouldn't they be able to say which is easier and which is not? Talk to Insomniac, whom have only just now become multiplat devs, and tell them they don't know any better since they've only programmed for the PS3.

Seriously.

[Why o why]

The 360 is definitely easier to develop on...No doubt

Its still strange that the harder console to develop on has still yielded more technically advanced games but that could be down to their model of building dev studios and cultivating them. Ive said many times that ND, Santa Monica, QD or whoever would do great things on the 360s hardware. Lets hope BOTH consoles can achieve BOTH parameters next gen.

[LX-General-Kaos]

Alpha makes the most sense on this site. Always have great posts man.

[-Alpha]

@Dragon

1) I dont understand what you mean, nothing is stopping Sony devs from doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that they are given Sony-funded opportunities to make the best of their games

2) It doesn't matter if that's not the only hardware they developed for, I was saying that Sony developers are going to praise MS for any reason or plainly speak like multiplat developers do who are working on both consoles

[specialguest]

A true statement in relation to what they do, remains a true statement.

If there are 2 paths to the destination, one with obsticles while the other one has no obsticles, over time they've figured out ways to overcome these obsticles.

However, the path with no obsticles still remains easier by default. Therefore, their statement is true.

[cyborg6971]

I know right. Hey 07 called and wants its headline back.

[Jamzluminati]

Wtf is this? 2007?

[kevnb]

I dont think people who have never coded a thing in their life should comment.

[StraightPath]

sony learn next time with ps4. that way you wont have inferior products such as skyrim.

[Vinster]

"Our team were coming from a PC background, we had Settlers of Cataan on Xbox Live Arcade but that's it, that's the only previous console experience we had. Going to Sony platforms was a little bit tricky, Xbox was significantly easier, but across the board it was really nice going to platforms that were mature and stabilised."

I pretty much think they are saying it was easier because they had experience with PC/Xbox prior to developing Amalur. I would think that is to be expected.

[jaseo]

anyone else misread that as 'Amateur dev' ? :)

this type of headline just incites defensiveness and attacks. the developer is just discussing the development of their game. He mentions they have a PC background, so of course the xbox will be more familiar to them. That is just one comment that was taken out of an informative article. In context, there is no 'xbox vs ps3' tone.

we all know the ps3 has taken long for devs to get to grips with, but now an experienced ps3 dev might say that the ps3 is easier for them due to more familiarity with the architecture and now mature dev tools.

but to get into the debate, a lot of code will generally run faster on an xbox. On the ps3, optimising the code to make efficient use of the SPU's instead of just the RSX GPU is required. This is not always easy. Look at the technological leap between uncharted 1 and uncharted 2/3.

[ziggurcat]

"after 5 years we're still getting this? aren't they embarrassed to make these statement yet?"

yes, they should be embarrassed.

[Guwapo77]

I'll co-sign with you bud.

...who doesn't know this already? Any one this website knows it's harder to program for the PS3 since day one.

Someone below commented below that Microsoft did something right... Why in the world would they change the programming of XBox so it couldn't be a simple port to the PC? It only makes sense.

[Consoldtobots]

the difference between a PS3 and 360 dev is like the difference between an apprentice and a master carpenter. One needs the right tools to do his job while the latter can make his own tools to get the job done.

There's an old saying, "a poor craftsman always blames his tools".

[thekiddfran]

Who cares?? I still get to play the same game on my ps3 regardless of if it was difficult to develop for or not.

[PimpDaddy]

I love when people comment with "WHO CARES". Well obviously you did. You took the time to comment. You didn't add anything to the debate on this website other than to come off as insecure because your platform of choice was cast in a negative light in this article.

Oh and for the record I get to enjoy the same games on my PS3 as you do. Difference is I can live with the fact that 3rd Party developers prefer to program for the 360 because it is easier and thus cheaper and less time consuming than developing on the PS3.

[thekiddfran]

I dont think you got what I meant.

"I can live with the fact that 3rd Party developers prefer to program for the 360 because it is easier and thus cheaper and less time consuming than developing on the PS3."

Why should we care if it is hard to develop for, it is there job at the end of the day. I am a physicist and I face problems with programming and hardware design all the time, I dont complain and moan because it is my job.

[PimpDaddy]

You say why would you care and I say then why bother reading or commenting?

Read your comments again. You keep saying that you don't care and yet you commented on this article and then responded to my comment.

So you do care. But you care for the wrong reasons. You are in here defending Sony like you were a shareholder in their company but doing it in a less abrasive way than most of the Sony faithful on this site.

Go ahead and downplay what this developer said. They gave an informed opinion which is more than either you or I have done on this topic...

[StitchJones]

This is the oldest lamest story that developer after developer uses. We know the PS3 sucks to code for. Get over it.

[gigreen]

You are working for EA so shut up and be professional about it.

[WitWolfy]

EA are one of the few 3rd party studios who actually know how to work with PS3 hardware compared to other crappy 3rd party companies we know.. What do you think Activision???

[MGRogue2017]

I'll definitely agree with that. That Syndicate demo runs & looks as good as Killzone 3, very impressive work from the PS3 development team.

[SignifiedSix]

Old news. We all knew this 5 years ago.
The reason its easier is because it has the architecture of a PC... move along now, just lazy developers :)

[360GamerFG]

Where's your PS3 game that you developed with ease and unlaziness?

[Game3s]

Actually no its the smaller ram and more difficult cell proccessor that makes it harder to develop for.

[gamingdroid]

It's the unbalanced system and the weird computational design.

The Xbox 360 has full 3-cores, capable of executing 6 threads. The PS3 Cell has 7 SPE (as one is disabled for better yield), but each are very limited in memory. This means, you have to ensure your task is split up and will fit within the constraints.

This is not only very hard to do, but sometimes impossible without significant degradation in performance.

It's like trying to split up a big task for smaller limited teams and ask them to minimally communicate with each other because that will prevent other teams from talking to each other.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that this will quickly bottleneck.

Good design means all parts of the system are as much used as possible at all times....

[Ulf]

@gamingdroid

Your analysis is familiar, although incorrect. Lots of devs go there, because they don't want to rework their engine, or their ideas of how an engine should work, to use a job system.

You shouldn't spew your opinion like it's fact, because its not. Check out some of Naughty Dog's GDC talks on how they utilized the PS3. The 360 is perfectly capable of "emulating" the job-style engine, although the Xenon is nowhere near as powerful as the Cell, in this regard.

[gamingdroid]

@Ulf:

What about my statements are incorrect?

Please be specific as I don't like vague answers.

***The 360 is perfectly capable of "emulating" the job-style engine, although the Xenon is nowhere near as powerful as the Cell, in this regard.***

Well, duh! Emulation will never go faster than native (or natural if you may), because you are adding a layer to "emulate"....

[Captain Qwark 9]

they could spend all the time, money and effort in the world on it, doesnt change the fact that its harder to develop for, its more work either way.

remove your blinders dude, just becuase somebody criticizes the ps3 doesn't mean their lazy, it could once in a while just be fact, esp since this seems to be a unanimous criticism of the ps3

[Bathyj]

Man, I just read Anna Nicole Smith died.

[360GamerFG]

I guess what was true 5 years ago is still true today. . .

[Bathyj]

Well 5 years ago in response to developers complaining that different hardware that wasnt just a mid range PC was too hard, I commented that those who buckled down and did their homework early would reap the rewards, while those that just whined would not only be behind now, but stay behind years down the road.

Thats still true today.

[PetitPiPi]

Bathyj

That doesn`t change the fact that the PS3 is STILL more difficult to develop for, 5 years later.

You lost in space this morning?

[SuperLupe]

Wow I've just dropped into a world where facts must change 5 years later. If the sky was blue 5 years ago well 5 years later it must certainly be red ?

What the heck you guys on.

[theDECAY]

@Supelupe

The hole in the ozone layer was smaller 5 years ago?

[Tarantino_Life]

Lol!

[lorianguy]

The -developers- need to try harder is all.

[PersonMan]

... and for some reason I like the games Sony offers.

Also, I don't have a Kinect so I can't really enjoy what Microsoft has to offer.

I'll stick to PC for my multiplats from now on... the 360 is a piece of crap really. Screen tearing on almost every game and low res textures.

Yeah, for those that don't know... I love my PS3 but I'm getting back into PC gaming using a controller. Ah, high res bliss.

[Captain Qwark 9]

lmao " Screen tearing on almost every game and low res textures."....

no dude, no. take off your blinders man, you have no idea what your talking about, nothing but a fanboy.....

[PersonMan]

Really? I don't know what I'm talking about. List some reason games that do not have any screen tearing whatsoever. Here's a small list of games that do:

Fear 3
Battlefield 3
Dead Island
Need for Speed: The Run
Skyrim (Xbox 360)
Assassin's Creed (any of them)
Batman Arkham City
RAGE (believe it or not, it has screen tearing most noticeable on PS3)
Driver San Francisco
Shadows of the Damned
Alice (PS3 version)
Red Faction
Duke Nukem
Dirt 3 (PS3 version tears more)
Homefront

...I could go on forever. There are far too many games this gen lacking polish, so the only way to avoid those problems, you have to play them on the PC. However, PS3 has excellent games that are not only FUN and exciting, but they look beautiful and perform great.

I'm not a fanboy. I play on all 3 systems (PS3, Xbox 360 and PC) but the PS3 has my favorite games, but the 360 has.... Call of Duty.

Tell me again I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Captain Qwark 9]

easy, you dont knwo what your talking about, i own.....

battlefield 3
skyrim
batman
and duke

i have not had any on any of those titles. chances are it may happen occasional but doubtful that its widespread. and if you own all them and have experienced it then you must have some pretty bad luck. beyond that, its been stated in countless reviews that most multiplatform games perform better on 360 to begin with ( i was just watching a video of armored core 5 the other day in fact, 24fps on ps3 and 28fps on 360 ) , so guess what, they run perfectly fine on 360 too!

i own all three as well dude, only i actually do. im Captain Qwark 9 on 360 and CaptainQwark9 on psn, and 122456333455 ( jk jk idk my wii code ) im not a blind fanboy like you. each systems has had its fair share of games that under perform technically speaking ( hell for me gears of war 1 wouldnt play past a certain point and neither did la noire on my ps3 ), bethesda games on the ps3 are the worst offenders of all so its laughable to even see you mention skyrim on the 360. so dont get all high and mighty like the ps3 can do no harm.

[Darkfocus]

I've played skyrim and batman on 360 before they screen tear(they do on Ps3 as well)...

[PersonMan]

Listen Captain Qwark 9.... I didn't say that the PS3 doesn't have flaws. A lot of those games also tear on the PS3 and that's why I play PS3 exclusives like Uncharted 2, 3, Killzone 2, 3, Infamous 1, 2... etc because multiplats are usually garbage. If you read my original post again, you'll see that I've started playing games on the PC because I really can't stand screen tearing and almost all console games (PS3 included) have some sort of screen tearing.

For the record, you're wrong about Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Batman and Duke Nukem not having screen tearing on the 360.... so I should call you the blind fanboy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Proof:
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

Here's a snipit from the Duke Nukem face-off: "It's a night-and-day difference between the two consoles. The Microsoft platform runs the game with an uncapped frame-rate, presenting some of the worst screen-tear we've seen in recent times. It seems that the people in charge of the conversion could only manage to get any semblance of a 30 frames-per-second refresh by updating the framebuffer as soon as a frame was rendered, and even then we still see some alarming drops in overall performance. The result is an unwelcome assault on both the look of the game and the way it plays."

From the Batman face-off: "As with most UE3 titles, frame-rate is capped at 30FPS and v-sync is dropped when the engine goes over budget in rendering the current frame. The framebuffer is 'flipped' while the screen is refreshing, resulting in a torn frame. During combat you might come across one or two dropped or torn frames, but the experience is smooth and image consistency is left unharmed. However, the takedown sequences can show a bigger difference where the PS3 is concerned - lots of tearing is thrown into the mix and the frame-rate also takes a hit for a few seconds. It's clearly noticeable, but across the majority of combat scenes, the impression you get is that both versions are fairly solid."

[_Aarix_]

"Tell me again I don't know what I'm talking about."

-_- You dont know what youre talking about.

[josephayal]

Congrat to Microsoft

[devilhunterx]

DirectX Vs. OpenGL

[koehler83]

Is that why the ps3 demo froze on me?

[rattletop]

we have heard that a lot of times b4

[PS4OUR]

Talk about beating a dead horse. Its 2012 and this poor horse is still getting his ass whooped. Its common knowledge the PS3 is harder to develop for. 2 things bother me. The fact this dev is blabbering about something we've known for years AND the fact this made news on N4G. Who the hell approves these articles???

[undisputed]

People who are insecure about their console. They have to keep reminding themselves that they made the right choice.

[KontryBoy706]

What year is this 2008?

[acdata]

Fixed Functions VS unified shaders

[Hyperbomb69]

It may be easier on 360 but PS3 is alot more rewarding. More work for better games, they need to stop making games with xbox as the lead platform. Just because its easier doesnt mean its better.

[Voxelman]

On a project with limited time and budget easier = better.

Sure a project with infinite resources or where you can focus all attention on one platform a higher ceiling is better, but in the real world whatever allows you to get the job done quicker with less effort is better.

For example code written in assembler will inherently be faster than code written in a higher level language like C++ run though a compiler. Yet no one is writing programs in assembler because it takes 20x longer to make the same program (only BIOS level stuff is written in assembler these days).

If the 360 makes it easier for the developer to get the engine up and running then using it as the lead platform will allow the designers more time to polish the actual game and content instead of waiting for for the programmers to solve some problem on the PS3. Even if it would be more rewarding.

In a multiplatform environment you have to make sacrifices and do what works best on both platforms, not because the devs are lazy but because if they don't well they miss deadlines and that screws up the production pipeline which can cause the project to go over budget and be delayed or cut content. And unfortunately deal with some extra problems due to the PS3, you have put some extra work into that platform to make it = to the 360 or you do what many devs did early in the gen and put the same work into both and end up with worse results on PS3.

Now if they were working exclusively on PS3 it would be less of a problem because then you can optimize everything around the PS3 and with good planning avoid many of the problems before they come up if you have a lot of experience with the PS3. And you can make use of the special features of the PS3 even if it means structuring your engine in a way that wouldn't work on other platforms and to optimize assets in a certain way so as to not hit bottle necks. Which is why PS3 exclusives look better than other console games, but you just can't do that on multiplatform games as it would mean an almost double budget and team size just for 10-20% better looking games only on PS3.

[joeorc]

Time is money!

the point being is the PS3 has a 2nd compiler just for the SPE's. Spe's think of them as GPU accelerators as their main function taking offloads from the GPU to allow the GPU do what it does best an that's draw.

the very fact that not many developers has had time to program for such a design does not mean its a poor design for game design or theory. It just means they have to practice more an study more to become proficient in such hardware. that takes both time an money. While that would be great if every developer had that time an money to do so, the truth of the matter is they do not.

being hard to develop for does not outright mean poor design , an if those saying the PS3 was a poor design for gaming just do not know what the hell they are talking about frankly, if that was the case the games for the PS3 would look far worse an developers of even the 1st party would struggle to gain better results in game theory an design an development for the platform.

the Platform was made to be new an harder for development to get developers better gear'ed for future SOC's development in multiple core development for games. most game before the past few year's for Cpu's their game was designed to run on one processing core. there may have been more than one but one would be really what would be used.

game development with SOC's now in mobile devices with limited GPU'S an Ram are the norm now with multiple core designs that do infact have alot in common with the design of the Cell processor which was a Hybrid CPU/GPU system on a chip.

two methods of design one design took more inline with current designs in the market the xbox360's design can get code up an running faster because the tool chains were more mature an the experience with its design was more standard at the time. Sony took the other design method..but the effects for better results from developers on much more standard design's SOC's going forward will be better for developers that developed mainly on the PS3.

[cstyle]

A well known fact. It's probably the reason that 99% of multi-plats look and run better on the 360.

[Hicken]

Yes, it's still true. That doesn't mean it's an excuse anymore, though. As many times as it's been said, and as many games as have come out showing that its complication- rather than being an issue- has actually resulted in some of the best games this generation, I really can't see why anyone would accept this.

It's all well and good if they make a great game, but complaining about how hard it is to develop for doesn't change your job: to make an exceptional game.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

It bugs me to no end that this site chose to title the article the way they did. It's a solid interview that has more to do with discussing the trade off of working with matured hardware (xbox 360) vs New (Xbox720).

The dev even went out of their way to say "but across the board it was really nice going to platforms that were mature and stabilised." Sadly that sentiment gets lost due to the title.

I will also say it is never shocking for me to hear a PC dev team finds it easier to dev for the 360 over the PS3. It makes sense that they would find the similar architecture "easier"...BUT that doesn't equate to "its better" which sadly most conversations in these articles jump to the conclusion. PS3 is a powerful machine that has proven it can produce fantastic games when done right.

Back on topic, I wonder how much incentive a company like Microsoft will need to give once they launch their next system to entice a 3rd party to make a launch game? I mean clearly its in the best interest of a 3rd party dev to wait a little bit for the user base to grow. So what does it take? Advertising support? genre exclusivity for launch maybe ...as in we will only allow your racer to come out at launch so it will have the spot light... or is it just a deal for "X" amount in sales and they will subsidize any sales that fall short?

[ZBlacktt]

After all the GOTY awards to PS3 exclusives. Sad that lazy dev's still come up with this excuse. When a Dev say's easier. They mean one of two things. One, lazy and want plug in play code. Two, it's over their head in skill. Something PS3 dev's have no issue with ever since MGS4.

"server-1 + 36m ago

A well known fact. It's probably the reason that 99% of multi-plats look and run better on the 360. "

Dude, they are made for the 360 first so the game fits on a DVD. When games are made for the PS3 first like FFXIII then ported to a DVD. The game is cut up all to hell. With much left out because it won't fit. When games made just for the PS3 alone. It becomes GOTY quality ( MGS4, Uncharted games, Killzone games, God of War3, Little Big Planet, Heavy Rain and so on )

[Bladesfist]

Devs are not lazy :S They actually work a lot harder than other parts of the computer industry and a lot dont get paid as much.

[Zynga]

Blah blah blah! Why don't you try creating a game and then still tell us developers are lazy. Otherwise shut it troll.

[Shadonic]

dude like most of those are PS3 exclusives the conversation is about the developers opinion of which is easier and your bringing up games made by companies that have been doing ps3 only dosent really make since <.< plus with exclusives idk if the console really matters when its GOTY i mean were talking about the games not the consoles exclusives or not if its a good game its a good game.

[FrigidDARKNESS]

That's why developers like Crytek ID software and CD Projeckt prefer the 360 over the ps3

[Bladesfist]

I think all multiplatform devs will prefer the easier choice :)

[LX-General-Kaos]

Its quite amazing how many people on this site get upset that the 360 is easier to develop for.

[Bladesfist]

Im a PC Gamer with no console or alleigance so I look at console news objectively. I don't see why some people get upset. One bad thing does not make their console bad, every platform has downsides and upsides. I can name them for xbox, ps3 and wii.

[Ulf]

Lead Designer says "One console is easier to develop for than other".

No one else sees anything wrong with this statement, do they?

Designers often have little technical background, and, by virtue of being on the design team, they don't actually do any software development. Design leads, in particular, don't do any development -- even engineering leads have little time for actual development, since they spend most of their time managing others.

I'm sure this guy is regurgitating something he heard from an engineer, and that he probably isn't technical enough to actually boil down what the engineer said into anything other than "sounds hard". I'm not going to take his statement at face value -- and neither should anyone else.

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

For those of you downplaying these guys, despite what they said the PS3 version of Amalur runs perfectly.

[Silly gameAr]

Can't believe articles like this still get so much attention. This isn't the first time a dev has said this and probably won't be the last.

It's no big deal.

[Shadonic]

i agree people are getting mad as if someone made a your mamas so fat joke or something.

[Ness-Psi]

not to be to cynical but this is from an xbox website lol. and the fact is everyone knows this fact and nobody really cares as long as the game is good.

[TheDivine]

My old boss used to make us a build buildings without using nailguns only hammers. It was needlessly difficult. He said that it made us better workers but in reality it took longer and the buildings came out the same. Work smarter not harder. Why would dev's like having to put in twice the work to make it run the same as other platforms, its not logical. That doesnt mean x or y are better but that x is easier to work with.

[BattleTorn]

Nevermind, work-harder for less sales.

That's like building a house with twice the supplies, for a guy who's paying you less.

If PS3 sales were the majority, devs would have no insentive to perfect their PS3-developement.

[Ivan Drago IV]

Is the 360 even still an active console? They have what? like 1 exclusive coming out this year and its just another Halo title. 360 is like the PS2 in my mind, both have the same amount of exclusives coming out this year. The writing is on the wall. MS pulls out of CES, they have no exclusives this year, no 1st party studios. This is an endurance marathon and they just cant keep up with Sony.. Simple and plain. Throw sales at me all you want, but i bet anything if you subtract the sales to overweight soccer moms who buy kinect and the xbox to lose weight, the PS3 would be way ahead by now. Thats the only thing keeping the 360 afloat.

BTW I own a 360, my gamertag is RagingBull2584. I have over 85 friends on my list, i logged on to xbox live for the first time in months the other day and only 2 people where online. And this was during peak times.

[BattleTorn]

"overwieght soccer moms... the only thing keeping the 360 afloat"???

Yeah, that's why every single multiplatform game sells more on the 360; because of soccer-moms.

Yes, MW3, Skyrim, BF3, Portal 2, Batman:AC, Madden, NBA 2K12, Black Ops and you-name-it... all sold more on 360. (none of which are Kinect related)

BTW I have over 90 people on my friends list, with an average of 25-40 online at peak times.

[Krakn3Dfx]

In other news, water is blue sometimes, but not always, depending on the pollution content of the liquid.

But clean water is still healthier for you than dirty water.

[undisputed]

And this is news....how?

[GraveLord]

Everyone knows that. But if you make full use of the PS3 games can look much better.

[Bonerboy]

BREAKING NEWS FLASH!!! Somebody get the mayor! Was this written 5 years ago?

[Nes_Daze]

So what? yes Sony should make systems easier to develop for, but the games right now on the PS3 are phenomenal!

[bobrea]

Old news

[BlackPrince 42]

Who else is sick of this complaint?

[ShaunCameron]

I am. If the PS3 is really that hard to make games for, make it an XBox 360 (or Wii in the case of Monster Hunter Tri) exclusive and move on. Besides you don't actually lose money making a platform exclusive game. You just miss out on whatever money you could made with audiences other than the one you made the game for.

[Allowen]

Every time a dev says that they win a "cookie" from Microsoft.

Anyways the devs don't talk much about content beeing cut or like the duration of the videos in many game that has to be cut a bit so it can fit in a 6.8G Xbox360 disk .
I wonder why is that.

And that makes who to suffer ?
PC and PS3 gamers that have to get a lot less quality on their 3rd party games all because the ultimate power machine called Xbox360.

Don t even start asking which games had to have content cut because it did not fit on the 6.8G dvd.

[_Aarix_]

Dude cut the crap, it the all mighty blu ray is what you say then why isnt games 5x longer than xbox exclusives. Gears of war for example. Its a 20-30 hour game with AMAZING lighting and texture and is only 7gb. Uncharted isnt a 200 hour game is it? No. And its still a linear game.Skyrim..nuff said, visually is amazing and has hundreds of hours of gameplay and guess what ITS ONLY FOUR FREAKING GIGS! How about next time you let the blu ray discs speak for themselves and not have the sony defense team do it.

[yewles1]

*migraine*

I can't facepalm myself hard enough at almost EVERYONE in this thread. This is an article from OXM UK!!!!!! The SAME OXM UK that gave THIS "charming" article on PC gamers...

http://www.oxm.co.uk/38074/...

THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!

[DA_SHREDDER]

A mediocre dev talks about how hard the ps3 is to program for? This is 2012, I haven't heard talk like this since 09. Give it a break mediocre devs. You and your crappy game could all go bankrupt for all I care.

[delosisland]

...why...are...there 102 comments here...for the love of god...

[Mister_G]

SNORE! Old news.

[smashcrashbash]

Its like a broken record. Some third party says the 360 is easier to develop for and someone else says the PS3 is not that hard to develop for. We heard this a million times, argued about it. We have seen PS3 third parties that look as good as any 360 one and PS3 exclusives that look as good as any third party.

We have already established that people who don't half @$$ it make very good games for the PS3. But some chaotic @$$ has to approve every article that says the same thing we have gone through a million times.God this site is just the most ignorant place on the net

[VirtualSamadhi]

As I've noticed, cross-platform tends to run better on XBox. However, exclusives look better on PS3. I think the complexity of the architecture slows down cross-platform, but exclusives have a chance to squeegee every last ounce of power out of the PS3.

[afterMoth]

The PS3 is hard to program for than an Atari 2600 as well. The results are still the same with PS3 having the best games, with the best graphics sound and gameplay :D

Anybody who has played both PS3 and 360 version already know the PS3 version performs better.

[miDnIghtEr20C_SfF]

This is old news because everyone already knows that like 95% of multi plats are better on the 360. We all know already that the PS3 is harder to make games for. That's why what has happened this gen, is happening.

[smashcrashbash]

95%? how did you pull that figure out of your @$$? I have about 6 multiplat games for my PS3 and they play just fine.A little sick of the 'Multiplats look slightly better on the 360' boast. It's getting pathetic.

[gk07]

Tell sony to keep this in mind when making the ps4 : ) teehee

[Rageanitus]

It is also much more difficult drive a ferrari vs a civic ;) but the outcome is much better if you know how to drive it.

[ForROME]

"Xbox 360 "significantly easier" to develop for than PS3"

Duh

[dcortz2027]

Easier to develop for is another way of saying weak hardware/power.

[Tacklebait]

+1 for the 360 this round...

[Lulz_Boat]

so.... easy develop = crappy games

hard develop = amazing graphics games...

i'm a a gamer...... i care about developing difficult? HELL NO.
=
ps3 win

fact.

[Series_IIa]

People they this type of article is old and moan about it

But when ND come out with the same tat every week about the PS3 not being maxed out and how efficient it is, everyone gets their butt munching bibs on and take it as solid truth...

[AtomicGerbil]

All these developers knew nothing about coding once upon a time, were baffled by C++, Pascal, Cobol etc. Over time they learnt, through college, university, hobby or work, whichever it was they learnt and never complained. Yet suddenly it's too difficult for some (not all).

Poor excuse I think, especially after five years.

[mixelon]

I'm amazed these stories are still so popular.

We've known this forever. Doesn't really affect the gamers providing the developers put in the work to learn the system/s.

Its not like either console's games are selling badly so at the end of the day why does it matter?

[cyclindk]

Sony can put out all the unorthodox and radical tech it wants, so long as they are content with developing majority in-house, because fewer and fewer third party devs will want to touch it when there's an easier "lay" on the block.

[Tanir]

well since the lead developer is the same developer from oblivion,ofcourse he is still gonna complain. honestly only the elder scrolls devs complain about this now a day.