Heavy Rain developer Quantic Dream believes it lost one million customers, and "between €5 and €10 million", to second-hand sales.
That is quite bad. Scratch that, that is really bad
I got it 2nd hand for 2 reasons i did't wonna spend £40 on something i was totally unsure id enjoy and it took agggggggggggges to go down in price great game though if i could't of got it cheaper 2nd hand i would't of got it at all
I'll never buy second hand. I support developers. I only buy second hand what can't be bought in stores anymore. Buying second hand doesn't support developers. Prove it wrong.
I bought it second hand as well. It's a good game, but I'm glad I held out on buying it brand new, because I don't think it's worth paying out full price for. Imo.
didn't get it day one, but I got it new. And those same people (like ones above) wonder why there are no more original IPs. In this case you buy at least new game. It is great game, and worth the money since it is not like it is just another FPS.
Well thats up too you I agree with supporting the devs I try to but like I said It took ages to go down In price so In the end I just got it 2nd hand heavy rain Is a genre I never touched before and thought the demo was boring but something made me want to play it but i wearnt paying £40 based of them demo thankfull the game is much better then that little section and i don't really have £40 to waste on shit i don't like maybe next time they will price it better ? well it was but the price drop took way too long
buying it new or used is the consumers choice I'm not gonna sit around rationalizing why someone should take that option away from me. I'm quite surprised that so many people buy into this idea that the devs are not making their money. There was never any guarantee that they would have gotten that supposed lost 1 million customers in the first place. unless new games come down in price at a pace to beat the used sales market I see no reason not to buy used. We should not be punishing or belittling the smart consumer. @Breaver Buying secondhand does support the devs in two ways: 1. If I really like the game then I might buy there next product new day one. 2. If there is any dlc for the game then I have to buy it from PSN or XBLA and that right there is a revenue stream. I see no reason to point your finger at folks who buy used as state they are not supporting devs that is bullsh_t.
I only buy new, always have and always will as long as I can find a new copy at a reasonable price. That said, I don't know why gamers have this notion that the gaming industry should get some special treatment. Many industries face the exact same problem, like movies, music and other software. In fact, with movies you are even more likely to trade it in because the experience doesn't really scale to 10-15 hours. After all, how many times can you watch a movie? Entice people to keep the game longer by creating a great game, provide compelling DLC, and create a fantastic community. If companies are reducing my freedom to play games, I will boycott it and not buy it at all.
@Baby Is what you are saying about supporting the devs through a used market any different than pirating a game though? Sure, you don't pay the stores a dime, but you also don't pay the developers. I am all for the option to buy used (certain publishers like Activision IMO deserve used game sales and I intend to buy their products but not support them financially), but if this is the case, then devs are going to fight back by doing cheap DLC tricks and withholding content on disc. We are already seeing things like online passes and DLC ruining the core game experience and it's only going to get worse. I feel for developers, but because of potential used games, they are screwing over everybody else.
@-Alpha Well ... Second hand is every one's right , if you don't like it don't do it , but you should not take people's choice . The dev job is to make a good game and to get the money by selling it to stores , your job is to look for the better deals and take them . The dev which you care about and support will not give you money when you need some .
***The dev job is to make a good game and to get the money by selling it to stores , your job is to look for the better deals and take them .*** And then question why a new IP you liked isn't getting a sequel or why the big dev companies are buying up all the small ones or forcing them to close or wondering why next generation game costs go up another $20 or wondering why they are implementing more online passes or ... ***The dev which you care about and support will not give you money when you need some .*** Yup, but they sure as heck were the ones who made the game for you in the first place, not GameStop. No other business is going to give you money, but they will stop producing if they're not making the profit they need to stay afloat.
@cgoodno well said bubbles also though i got HR 2nd I became a fan of the Dev and may support future releases by brand new before price drops etc because now I have faith In them after playing them...If I had not got it 2nd hand I would't give too shits who they are as the would of been unproven to me and only made a niche game I played a boring demo too
I buy a car knowing that I can sell the car down the road and buy a new car. The car company doesn't get any money if I sell my car but they do get money when I buy a new car with the money I got from selling my old car. There are many people who only buy used cars and the car companies never get any money from them either but that is part of the ecosystem. Nobody gets grief about not supporting the car manufacturers when they buy a used car. Quantic Dreams needs an attitude adjustment. How many people would have not bothered with their game if they knew they couldn't sell it used?
@cgoodno Many games didn't get a sequel , we got over it ! Also the devs doesn't make the game for me , they made a product and I liked it so I bought it as simple as that . You don't like gamestop ? You still have a choice to sell the game your self and cut the middle man you will also get a better deal . Also these companies can get a better sales if they give consumers a choice like free dlc with the new game not to take their choices by puting online passes .
***Yup, but they sure as heck were the ones who made the game for you in the first place, not GameStop. *** Yup, but the developer didn't sell the game to me. The retailer/etailer did that. ***No other business is going to give you money, but they will stop producing if they're not making the profit they need to stay afloat.*** If it didn't profit, then it probably wasn't worth it to the consumer. Pricing is set by supply and demand thus affecting profits. I don't support companies that don't produce enough value unless it is a necessity. ***And then question why a new IP you liked isn't getting a sequel or why the big dev companies are buying up all the small ones or forcing them to close*** and how many small studios become big studios? If you aren't growing, then likely you are doing something wrong. *** or wondering why next generation game costs go up another $20 or wondering why they are implementing more online passes or ... *** Online passes are implemented because the companies CAN CHARGE you extra, they wouldn't if they couldn't. It has nothing to do with the need for the profit. That is a false assumption as these big publishers make huge profits. Besides competition and demand is suppose to keep prices in check. We don't need to artifically "protect" the industry, especially an industry as large as video games. Why do you think the average selling prices of video games are going down right now? Competition and market saturation! Treat all businesses equally, especially video games industry that isn't a necessity. It's not like it is medical research or something. The size of the industry is plenty healthy and among the largest it has ever been. If anything, it needs more competition to weed out the [email protected], not to artificially create jobs. Leave that to our government.
Quite simplistic too. They probably lost a lot of money due to second hand sales, but just cause 3 million people have trophies doesn't mean they lost one million sales, people borrow games to their friends, some have several psn accounts on the same console...it reminds me of the music industry claiming they lost 5 million sales when something is downloaded 5 million times. It's also strange for Quantic to mention that considering how happy they were with the sales when the game came out, but well, noone likes to lose money.
"but just cause 3 million people have trophies doesn't mean they lost one million sales, people borrow games to their friends" They still lost sales. Unless you friends are sending money to the developers they loose sales this way too. Also I am not sure why anyone would complete the game again on a different account and try to get the trophies again.
I'm not saying they didn't lose any sale though. Just not one million. Regarding "Also I am not sure why anyone would complete the game again on a different account and try to get the trophies again." I wasn't thinking one person with several accounts, but you know, dad and kids, brothers or sisters, or roomates...
"They still lost sales. Unless you friends are sending money to the developers they loose sales this way too. " Honestly, i'm kinda tired of this ideology showing around on this site, in the sense that devs are suppose to be sacred that we have to abide in everything that has to deal with games, they get money.
"They still lost sales." But who's to say the people who bought/borrowed it second-hand would have bought the game brand new if that was the only option? For all the devs know, those gamers might not have even considered buying the game if their only option was to buy it brand new.
Im sure they lost some sales, like every dev. but I think part of that number thay came up isnt just all used sales, but borrowing and renting form blockbuster and especially GAMEFLY. Blaming the used game industry for the difference between games sold and people who played it is not the complete truth. Alot of people probably borrowed and rented the game, not every one of those extra people bought a used game.
... and maybe Quantic Dream gained sales from others trading in other games to afford Heavy Rain. The other side of this is that now there is an extra million people that are more interested in getting the sequel. Still, 3 million getting a trophy is a far cry from "I would buy it new" if it wasn't available used. People might have borrowed it or rented it.
Well, I got it brand new. These guys made an awesome game and they deserved the support. I remember learning how to make that Origami duck out of the included paper while the game was installing - brilliant idea by the way.
I wonder if car manufacturers could use this excuse with their shareholders and get by with it?
How could they? When you buy a new car the cost of manufacturing that car is completely covered. When you buy a new game only a very tiny fraction of the cost to manufacture that game is covered.
really once a car manufacturer ships the car to the dealership they already made there money its up to the dealership to make there money by trying to get the highest deal for the car after they received it
And once a game is sold to a group of stores they don't get their money?
"once a car manufacturer ships the car to the dealership they already made there money " And it's the same when they ship to major retailers for gaming. They just don't allocate product to companies without any form of insurance. You would think with the amount of flak that some of these companies talk about used sales, don't you think it's weird why they continue to do business with the used company market?
oh really, poor you.... And if serious every company is loosing more or less on used games it is just away it is. Unless you do games with cd key then game is worth nothing when key has been used. p.s. i still have heavy rain special edition.
Or the game sucked badly that It didn't sell...So they turned to alternatives because they weren't sure if it was good(which it wasn't); now if people like it, they'll play the next game by QD
2 millions copies is hardly not selling.I can't believe people nowadays think that games need to sell halo or gears status in order to profit.If that statement is true then almost every developer would've gone bankrupt by now.A lot of games,and i mean ALOT sell below the 1 mil. mark and yet,they get sequels.so that must mean that profit is being made. I'm sure QD are just trying to make their point,who wouldn't be sad if there was a chance for his game to sell more copies?
Got my copy second hand..
Got mine brand new. I like to support devs so they can keep making games for me.
You got over a million sales, compared to devs who barely get 30K sales because of used game sales you can hardly complain.
The amount of money it took the develop the game wasnt covered by its sales.
Of course it was. Back when it was released they claimed all around how happy they were with the sales because they were afraid it wouldn't sell enough blabla. Considering it sold one additional million since then, I seriously doubt they lost money on this one.
Last time i checked Sony said they were happy with the sales the game turned by selling 1 million prior to 2-3 months after release.It must've at least covered the development costs,if not made profit. As i've said in my earlier post;games don't have to sell 5-10 million copies to profit.Last time i read about an article saying that Rockstar's Max Payne may cost 105 MILLION! and it needed only 5 millions sales to come out even with development costs....So assuming Heavy rain was 30 million to deveop for,you do the math.
@Aloren and CaptainObvious The game selling 1 Million across all regions is good, but its hard to say how many of the games SOLD were sold at full retail price or sold in SALE because Heavy Rain was in Sale in my Local Gamestaion a Month or 2 After its release.
Not only that, but how can they say they "lost" 1M in sales due to the used market? I would be willing to guess that 3/4 of that 1M wouldn't have even bothered buying new if the used copies weren't available.
I got my copy second-hand because no way was I paying £40/$60 for a game I would only play through once and would last me about 10 hours. It's a story-based games, once you know all the plots and twist the excitement goes away. Also the game mechanics aren't exactly amazing, i'm not complaining but it's not a game like god of war 3 where you return to the game just for the gameplay. I'm happy to pay full price for a game like oblivion which gives me hundreds of hours of entertainment. I'm also happy to pay full price for a game with solid multiplayer that will keep me playing the game. But not a short-lived game.
It's just very hard for people to spend $120 in Australia (or $60 US) on a game that they might spend 20 hours on (being very generous) and never play again. I personally rented that game and platniumed it in about 15 hours and have no desire to play it again. If I bought the game for $120 that wouldn't be value for money at all. It was amazing game and I had fun playing it and QD definitely deserve the sales, but like the article is saying there needs to be a better system.
Fondaumiere's argument holds no water. He didn't 'lose' 1 million sales. First. He seems to think that the 1 million additional copies was purely from used sales. However he doesn't take in to account people lending / giving the game to friends, and from rentals. Second. The people who bought the game used did so because conditions were right.. i.e. price, or some sort of bundle or promotion (which he does touch on). If the price never got to the point where people thought it was a good deal, then they would never have bought it. It just so happened that the used market provided the conditions needed for people to make a purchase. If the used market never existed I doubt many of those 1 million would have bought it full price (they may have bought it on budget, but who knows) Also, he fails to see that those 1million people who didn't put money directly in to his pocket this time may now be fans of Quantic Dream - so if they make a sequel or another game then some of those 1 million people may decide to buy it Day 1.
That's ENOUGH reason and quality posting from YOU!!
I bought my copy brand new and enjoyed every minute of it....i was disappointed to hear after the release of the first DLC that more was cancelled.
I agree rather have DLC than Move Support but that's just me.
That's a shame this was a great unique title and one of my favorite games this gen. I am just happy Sony and Quantic Dream decided to take a risk and release this gem. Anyway can't wait to see their next game.
Bla if its not one problem its another. Before you go on thinking I just outright hate developers, I Dont. I see that SOME do suffer from this, but look at it this way. They "take care of" used game sales. Lets say they all come with that crap online code, even games that don't have online, or they come up with some other way to screw over the person trying to save money buying a game used. Then suddenly they are losing money somewhere else. "Oh our development cycles cost to much, we gotta bump things up 10 dollars" or "we can't take care of servers longer than a year without another fee from users" Its a never ending cycle of blame the other guy. Its a business yes, but in the end of the day are we going to watch the video game industry turn into sub par attempts like Hollywood where everything is about making money and not the entertainment value? I hope not.... Now if this was truly an issue they wanted resolved, why do they honestly not just work out deals to where they make money off of this stuff? Instead they jump right to wanting it cut out entirely.....
I believe one of the planned DLC's was being able to play from the Origami Killers perspective..how he got started etc.... I'm hoping Quantic Dream and Sony change their minds and release all the DLC in the future
I pretty much buy all my games new to try and support the developers whom without I wouldn't have this great hobby. However I would buy far less games if I didn't have the option to trade them in. There is always a risk that I won't like the game or feel it's not something I'll play again in the future, I should add that I kept Heavy Rain in my collection as I loved it. The cost of games would be far too high if I couldn't sell them to the second hand market.
I'm not surprised...Heavy Rain was an unproven game and despite the glowing reviews, people were still unsure about it. The second hand games market will always be there just as it always has. Its just something that developers need to accept and move on. I for one did buy this game new because I loved the demo but many won't have played it and so picked it up second hand.
"We basically sold to date approximately two million units. We know from the Trophy system that probably more than three million people bought this game and played it." *Cry MOAR!* I guess in this day and age the concept of borrowing games is completely beyond the realms of possibility when it comes to explaining why there are 3mil users with trophies and only 2mil sales. When I picked up Uncharted 2 I passed it around like 4 of my friends so they could share in its epicness.
Funny disagrees... If I recall correctly SONY actually stated that sharing games you download on PSN with friends is perfectly acceptable. Why would borrowing games be any different. The gaming industry can f*ck off in regards to pre-owned sales as far as i'm concerned. Putting pre-owned games into the same category as piracy (effectively what they are doing) is a slap in the face to gamers who may have bought their products brand new at some point in the past but have simply not thought it value for money buying rehashed re-releases *COUGH CAPCOM* to pay full price again.
Niche title, conflicting opinions, no online, poorly supported (DLC) etc It's hardly surprising many people picked it up secondhand.
What did they expect once they cancelled the DLC that was meant to be released after the game was out. No pre-launch support = more trade-ins = more second hand sales
Not everyone can afford new games, what makes them so sure people would buy it new if a used copy was not available? Im sure people would rent it or wait for it to go classic if they could not afford full retail. If I borrow a dvd from my friend, does that mean I have to send a cheque to the studio because I should have bought it?
Don't think he has considered taking rentals and borrowing into consideration for a start. But ultimately I can kinda understand why it would sell well second hand. I loved the game, but it only took 10 hours and it really felt like a one time experience to me, even with the multiple endings. I actually finished it in one night.... if I bought that at full price man I would have been a bit let down. Should also mention I played my friends copy....
How much, on average, do people save when they buy second-hand? Here in Australia, sometimes I see used games selling for only $5 cheaper than brand new.
In the UK I had the option of getting Medal of Honor brand new for £20 or used for £15. Add the online pass to that and it is cheaper to get the it new. Without online pass it is only £5
Yeah, that's common here too. I've seen new games sold for $79.95 and their pre-owned counterparts for $74.95! Ridiculous
It depends. GameStop offers a membership that if you buy it saves you additional 10% on preowned, and then there are coupons, pre-owned only sales.. You could end up saving a bunch more. If it's new at $60 and preowned at 54.99, that means anyone with an edge card pays 60-(5+5.50) so that's $10 off, and if you have a coupon on top of that, it could end up being a nice chunk.
I'm not gonna lie, that is a huge saving if you get the membership. After four or five games you've basically saved enough for another. I'm not sure if our Gamestop equivalent - EBGames - offers the same savings but I might check it out. Thanks
Cb- GameStop and EBgames are the same exact company / store. So, they do.
Yeah in Canada, usually the price difference is a negligible $5. (at least for EB Games).
Looks like they should have made that dlc addon instead of making it ps move compatible. Sony pushed for this so Cage reluctantly dropped the dlc idea. This would have drove additional online sales.
Depends on people who wants to support the game company. I support Quantic Dreams so I bought their game brand new.
What about all of those people who didn't buy the game at all? Or don't have PS3's (GASP!)? How much money did they cost Quantic Dream? Ungrateful consumers smh
Well,not everyone can afford to drop 60 bucks on games very often.many may have thought the game wasn't worth full price but wanted to play.
Forums cost Heavy Rain some sales too, I was going to buy the game then some moron spammed the identity of the Origami killer all over the gametrailers forum on purpose in big caps bold letters. Never went back to GT forums after that and lost all desire to play the game.