360 Magazine: The great used game debate rages on, with the UK’s biggest high-street retailer, GAME, introducing pre-orders on used products. Is this a step too far? And should the average gamer care?
whatever. games cost too much anyway. If i can, i prefer buying games used because it's 3-5 times cheaper. And i don't care.
Everything is pirated nowadays... LONG LIVE PIRACY!!!
And there's the real problem. Do you realise the effect you're actually having?
Pre owned is piracy. The only difference is you guys are paying for it. The amount of pc gaming money devs don't see is a drop in the bucket compared to pre owned piracy.
I only buy games that I REALLY want brand new. For other games, I'll buy em used.
rather just get a few-months old game for 19.99 new from amazon.
@evrfighter Not that your biased or anything aye?
@evrfighter Not the same at all. A used copy was once new, thus the developer got money for that physical game. With piracy, the developer never receives a dime. Also, the pre-owned game is constantly generating money...similar to used cars/houses. Piracy is just stealing.
digital renting I want digital renting pay a little fee, donload from PSS have the game for 3-4 days, play, finish and move on
Dark_Charizard you are one of the many maggots that cripple industry's. I seriously sometimes wish i lived in the 70's or 80's where everyone was more hardworking and respectable.
i havnt bought a pre owned game in years, but i do rent, well games do cost alot and to live well and do all u want and still buy games for 45pounds or 60 dollars 3 to 4 times a month kills.. digital distribution or rental could be a good way to sort this out maybe in the next generation each publisher can have a channel they rent their games which bypasses middle rental services.. Or they sell their games online and for alot cheaper since alot of additional charges are mitigated if this is not done pre owned games will still rule the paying field.
you wanna sell more? lower the price. Supply and demand. $60 is way too much for a video game. $40 would be the sweet spot.. i would have twice as big library.
The idea of buying and selling on possesions has been around since the beginning of civilisation. The video game industry is probably the highest grossing in all of entertainment. So pretending like its dying because of used sales is a huge exaggeration. What game company's really want to say is that they just wont rake in as much money as they could. This does not mean for a second that they will be sleeping in cardboard boxes. It's not the responsibility of the consumer to maximise a game publishers profits. I believe everyone is always within their right to try and get the best deal for themselves. In the end though, QUALITY will always sell. Make something so compelling that I have to own It on day 1 and used sales will plummet. As it stands games are overpriced, period. If you want to moan about used game sales please stop trying to sell 4 hour long games with tacked on multiplayer and a day one patch to fix the shit you didn't bother with.
No what's killing the industry are the new pricing schemes,$60?!; companies milking their products by releasing yearly titles; $15 map-packs; exclusivity of DLC; the use of peer2peer over dedicated servers, etc.
Exactly. I bought a new copy of Halo Wars, 3 weeks ago for a friend on Amazon.com for £12.99 plus shiping. GAME were selling it new for £19.99 and used for £14.99. I will be buying Brink and Crysis 2 next month. Brink, i have pre-ordered because its not out. But Crysis 2 might be bought used if the difference between used and new is substantial. So as a consumer, i go for the best deals. If new makes more sense, then i will buy it new. If on the other hand pre-owned will save me a considerable amount, then i will buy it pre-owned. Times are hard, the economy is still crap and the government have told consumers to tighten their belts even further due to cuts that in some cases make sense and in others are just plain dumb. So until things change, i am afraid that the used games market will continue to grow.
It's a tough call because if things keep going the way they are, studios won't be able to afford the bigger budgets and then they'll disappear. Worst case scenario granted, but for some it's a reality. If the studio doesn't get paid why should they make games?
@Dailynch Uh the studio was already paid the first time it was purchased. Someone has to buy it for it to used don't they?
@ Daily So should the studios use that as an excuse to bone the consumer with the new "online pass" thats all the rage lately? They realize they can't get anymore money from the retailers, so they take it out on us, the ppl that are actually buying their product in the first place. Then this effects trade-in value as well when you bring in a game requiring an online code. Sure, thats what they're combating, but how do they know I'm not using the credit to purchase their product? I'll totally support devs I like that give back: Criterion, Valve, ect. But sorry if my heart doesn't bleed for some of these companies:/
@TOSgamer I don't get your logic. Lets say your favorite developers needed to sell 3 million copies in order to recoup their investment. Now lets say 1 million people bought the game new and 2 million bought the game used. Well, even though the game was PLAYED by 3 million people, the developers only get MONEY from 1 million of those people. And because of this the project is deemed a failure and your favorite developers end up having to close up shop. Now why on earth should a developer not see money from EVERY person who is enjoys the fruits of their labor? Also, why help companies like Gamestop steal money from the actual creators( aka the people responsible for the games you love.)? I mean, when companies like Epic and Insomiac go under, do you think Gamestop is gonna make these awesome games for you? hells no. People who buy games pre-owned need to realize that it's just as hazardous as piracy. I mean do you want awesome developers(and ultimately gaming as a whole) to die out? (worse case scenario but still, people tend to forget that worse case scenarios are entirely possible). rant over.
The only people GS steal money from is the people selling them their old games. For example, someone buys a game new and keeps it for a few months, Later they trade it in and all they get is a few cents on the dollar for what they paid for it. Then GS sells it for a hefty profit to the next gamer. This is where GS is making their money, which is not at the developers expense. If devs what to sell more games, first they need to price them accordingly. Lets face it, not every game is worth $60 on Day1. Also, they need to make a game that is not some cookie cutter brownie... aka another shooter/adventure game. And as always, they need to drum up proper demand for the game... I say proper because spending millions to advertise crap is not the wisest investment. Oh and they need to release their game during the drought months of the year. Lately it seems like all the good games release within hours of each other. Gamers only get paid so much per week and when 2-4 good games are released on the same day... that means that some games will have to sit on the shelf regardless of how much a responsible gamer might want it. Add to all the above the cost saving of getting a used game and it's no wonder the industry is not what it used to be.
Yeah seriously right? Publishers should consider themselves lucky we still even by there games.
@ChozenWoan So at the very least, you agree that Gamestop steals people's money right? Which simply brings me back to one of my first questions : Why support them? And actually they do steal from developers(in a sense). Anyone who disagrees with this really doesn't understand how the pre-owned market works. (no offense but it's true.) You see, when you buy a brand new game, Gamestop only gets A CUT of the revenue. This is the publishers way of paying the retailers. The reason they don't get full revenue is because obviously they are selling SOMEONE ELSE's product. Now, when you buy a used game, you are buying what a previous customer(aka the previous owner) has legally sold to Gamestop (aka Gamestop's property). Therefore since Gamestop is selling something they now legally own, they don't have to give sh!t to the developers, publishers, etc. In lamen's terms, If you buy a new game for 39.99, the developers will receive a good portion of that. If you buy a used game for 39.99, the developers don't see a dime of it. I can't make it any simpler then that. hell, did you guys even ask yourselves WHY gamestop can afford to sell the games at such low prices? It's not rocket science people.
@gravemaker: You can buy sealed/"new" games few months after release for like half of the original price and not much more expensive than preowned. It's not an argument anymore.
Exactly. The price of games depreciate so rapidly nowadays you're better off waiting a few months. Gameplay are selling Killzone 3 for £25, released barely a month and a half ago and it's already half the RRP.
that is exactly how i see things, theres probably one or two games a year i want to have as soon as they are released and am tempted by a pre-order deal, but other than that i buy new games when they are a price I can afford. I don't like to buy pre owned because you don't know where they have been, there could be dried matter from some kids nose stuck on the booklet (or worse) , I don't like to think about it. It reminds me of when scientists did swabs on peanuts left out for customers in bars...they found traces of urine, fecal matter, semen, hepatitis cells, dead hiv cells, staphylococcus bacteria, sexual lubricants, traces of cocaine etc etc. that was just from one bowl of peanuts, i hate to imagine what traces of unidentified matter would be found on used games. everything has to be fresh out of the cellophane for me personally. and i wash my hands and bath regularly so i know i won't contaminated anything. if i'm going to get another gamers semen in my mouth I want to know where it comes from and have some choice in the matter.
***And i don't care.*** You do, otherwise you wouldn't complain about Online Passes and DLC. Those are the result of companies losing money to second-hand sales.
games cost to much?? A developer has to hire voice actors, programers, artists, storywriters, concept artists, level designers and much more. Then they have to buy advertisement. They then send their game of to be published, So im guessing they have to pay for the disks and the boxes and the manual. They do all that for £39.99 i think thats a bargin
8 disagrees and not one person tells me why, N4G is so awsome
I guess that poor people getting clothes from organizations is piracy according to some peoples logic. I mean some people doesn't have money to put 60$ on a game.
especially now, when devs ca nstill make money from pre-owned copies sold through DLC and Online passes. All copies that are bought pre-owned have been bought new before, unlike pirated games. I only buy new thought because the last used game I got from BBV had to be returned becuse it was so scratched. I do trade in some old games tho sometimes to help buy some new games. Usually I just keep my games though. Fact is, alot of people buy used and the devs don't sell a new copy to them. But on the other hand there are alot of people like me who sometimes trade in old games to buy new ones.
Then it's time to change your hobby.
...as if the topic hasn't been covered enough.
Only buy previous gen games use. Everything bought for the current gen should go to devs/publisher.
I buy pre-owned only if they don't deserve my money. Other than that it's all new :D
im not paying full buck for a game i can finish in a day when i can wait a few months and buy it from cex hell i got bioshock 2 for £2 haha
I got Bioshock new when it 1st released and i absolutely regretted my purchase. While it was an amazing game, i finished it 8 hours later and never felt compelled to play it again because the games replay value is really low.
You do know that you could wait a few months and still buy it new for a lot cheaper? I tend to wait for most games to hit the $20 mark, which most of the time only takes about 4 months.
If its a new game i am really looking forward to playing, then i always buy it new and usually pre-order it like i am doing with Brink. I do know that games reduce in price, hence my post above that i stated that i bought Halo Wars on amazon new for £12.99. At the end of the day, it all depends on the deal i am getting.
I'm with cgoodno. I rarely ever buy a game at full price, the last one I bought at launch was KZ2 at £29.99. Most of the time I buy my games in the steam sale, that way I'm getting the game at a great price whilst still supporting the industry. I like to buy console games new also but I normally wait until they are at the £10-£20 mark. It's a win for me and the industry.
I usually only buy games I REALLY want, so I almost always pre order or at-least wait until it drops to £12 - £20. However, if I want Batman: Arkham Asylum, barely anywhere is selling it brand new anymore. They're selling a platinum version of the game for twice the price of preowned (which is near new quality most of the time) And I like to have the original. I don't really care either way. Games I can't wait to have, I pay retail for. Games that look interesting, I get on sale. Games that are only a year old and almost completely unavailable, I'll get preowned for £5.
Yeah, but that's part of the problem isn't it. They are expensive and yet, not paying full price means the studios sees none of your money.
Long read/long rant so unless you are interested in industry vs customers then skip this. There are many more layers to this than just buying used games on the customer end. If devs and publishers were that worried about used sales they would stop pushing exclusives and preorder bonuses to companies like Gamestop who are the main culprits in keeping this monster used market going and "stealing their profits". Every day they are steering customers to the people who are "hurting them" and "killing the industry". They can't have it both ways, they want the profits from those companies but also complain about how much profit they make off them. The companies that are keeping the structure of the current used game system running are making record profits off them every quarter but the gamers are killing the industry by buying used? If anything gamers get screwed out of nearly as much money as devs do by the current used game retailers and both sides are at fault for still patronizing and using them. It is a dual sided issue. If devs want less games in the used game market then they should also try to make their game better as a long term component to my library, then the used game market won't be flooded with them. If gamers want better quality games then they should buy new and give the people making them their share of the money rather than just feeding a middleman the profits. Devs are also at fault in part because they want to keep putting out yearly releases with minor upgrades for $60, in doing that they better expect people to look for other alternatives to full blown retail. The more they milk franchises the more people will turn to used games to offset it. They could also price drop their games once they have been out a while and not leave it up to the retailer to compete with used game sales, and make it less profitable for the middleman (like Gamestop) but they rarely do that fast enough either. "The industry" has tons of options to combat used game sales but they aren't using many of them at all. They just whine and blame consumers. Instead they add other things that hurt end-users like piecemeal DLC that was ready at launch but held back to jack up price even more, or the ridiculous "online pass" system that actually takes a portion of ownership of a retail product away from the purchaser. When they start putting in that effort I will start worrying about them more. I make sure buy new from the companies I like (Bethesda, Bioware, Blizzard, Gearbox, Valve, Criterion, Volition) and know will release a quality title and support their game properly because I want to be sure they are able to continue to do so. Everyone else is on a case by case basis as to what is the best deal for me. Every other industry has come to grips with free market and resale yet game developers whine about it all while feeding into it. I'll care more and stand up for them when they start standing up for themselves.
Long read but i mostly agree with you especially about dropping the price. Valve reported that when they dropped the price of Left 4 Dead on steam they got like a 3000% increase in sales and 1600% increase in Steam sign ups that weekend compared to the previous week.. http://www.joystiq.com/2009...
Agreed. Considering you can get GOTY editions with all DLC included to multiplayer predominant games for 30$ nowadays if you wait, why would the consumer pay face value after being burned so many times? The blame lies on the devs and their lack of content they publish at the time of release. Here's looking at CoD and most other shooters out there with a very finite list of maps at launch.
I believe you hit it dead on with everything you said.
The industry is killing the industry. Just because we love playing games doesn't mean we have the money to spend $60 a game and then get charged through the nose for DLC which ends up separating the community and amounting to worthless property because no one plays it because they charge too much. If they made games worth the price, there is not a problem. I would say only 5% of games made these days are worth $60. Most fall into the $20 or $30 range.
I don't know what you got so many disagrees... I think you hit the nail on the head. NOT EVERY GAME IS WORTH $60. Look at a game like 3D Dot Game Heroes which released at $40... I liked it at $40, but if I had paid $60 I wouldn't have been as impressed. Then there are games like Battlefield Bad Company 2 which I paid $60 for, but I got hundreds of dollars worth of value out of. The DLC comment is also on the money... I don't need 5 map packs. Why not just include them in the game? Or why charge $15 for DLC? 5 maps for $5-$10 is ok, anything above that is just greed. And paid DLC map packs and expansions do break up the community... example -> SOCOM Confrontation.
Well, everyone who is like me and you understand what I am saying... its all true. The disagrees are probably from people who don't like me... I've gathered "fans" over the years. I also think that people who work for the devs in the industry visit this site and my comment is on the money and it would hurt their pockets.
Wel...it's only three disagrees as I'm looking at it now...not really that many. But yeah, the industry doesn't work well and instead of changing, it wants an artificial market with magical rules to sustain itself that involves being "owed" money for second and third hand sales of a game unit.
@Drekken I do see what you're saying and even agree with most of it. But regarding the whole $60 thing, well it's not as simple as them just saying "we're gonna charge x amount just because we can". The bottom line is, making games in this day and age is expensive. And the more a creator has to pay to make something, means the more money consumers are going to have to pay to buy said thing(unfortunately). Basically, if we as consumers want Uncharted or Halo Reach caliber games, we're gonna have to fork over the extra dough for those levels of production. It the same any industry, the cars of today cost more than cars of yesterday, but look at how much better they are. also, if devs make less money you do realize that they won't be able to afford making games Mass Effect and such, resulting in even worse games. but like I said I do get what you're saying(especially about DLC).
@palaeomerus Initially it was 3 disagrees and no agrees...
*Buy Pre-owned? You’re Killing The Industry.* Well then maybe you should buy the game's for those that can't afford them brand new.
Oh ok. Try again when you've not got something totally stupid to say.
you've not got something? What you just said is so ironic with you requesting something "not totally stupid".
you ever hear anyone say the used car market is killing the auto industry? Do you know how many fewer cars would be sold if we were unable to trade our old cars in?? The used game industry is perfectly fair and is here to stay. If devs dont want their games sold used then they can switch over to only digital distribution. Im allowed to sell anything that belongs to me, and your allowed to buy anything that im selling. The video game industry isnt special, and if devs dont like it they can Eat a dick, hard. I dont buy used games, only trade in old sometimes to buy new ones. Im sure EA doesnt mind that I traded in some old games and bought crysis new do they?? If the videogame industry cant survive used game sales then that is a sign that they have much bigger problems.
One of the best posts on this thread. Bubbles. Might I add: PS3 Slim 160GB - £230 Controller - £40 Killzone 3 with DLC - £50 That's £320 to play Killzone 3 with a friend. If buying pre owned kills the industry (wah wah) I'll be happy to shoot the industry in its f*cking head with the Sharpshooter gun that I bought from THE INDUSTRY.
ain't nothing wrong with used games. I can buy 2 or 3 games for the price of a new one. don't get me wrong, I'll buy a new game every now and then.
If it'll save money, then sure.. Why not buy pre-owned..? Everybody loves saving money where they can.. except maybe for teh rich people out there who use $ notes for replacement toilet paper..
Gaming is a very expensive hobby, and most of us are very loyal customers and gamers so quite frankly I don't care. Consoles costing hundreds of £/€/$, games costing half of that, controllers and accessories costing the same price or even more than games (that's the case here anyway), downloadable content, shorter games for the same high price, consoles that don't last anywhere near as long as those of previous generations. Can I live with buying pre-owned? Yeah I think I can, especially since otherwise I'll have no games or no money for you know, things that are a bit more important in life, like food, clothing, education.
the gaming industry brings in billions of dollars and companies wanna complain about Consumers buying used titles
If they are introducing stuff like this then they need to compensate the people who make and distribute these games at least a little.
It really is the industry killing itself. While I agree that used sales and piracy are hurting the industry, it's the consumers right to search for the best price. And the standard that you'll pay the same price for viva piñata that you'd pay for cod is crazy. Maybe price ranges, idk. The industry does need a change, idk what that change is but we can all see that something needs to change to make both consumer and industry happy.
Since 07, I always buy new games. It's different when you know people in the industry, you get to see the human factor. If I support a game, I buy it new. I don't want anymore Pandemic or OddWorld Inhabitants closings. I love diversity in the industry. The fewer the developers, the fewer the diversity in genres. I don't want nothing but FPS. And to be fair, I have a job, so price isn't really an issue.
I don't have a problem paying $60 games. I will not pay $60 for games that dev/pub did not use resources on. A quality game will always do well. The dev/pub that turn out bad games should not be around. Charging $60 for a game that should be like $30 new is crazy. They should charge for games like other merchandise that we purchase. $60 games are the Uncharted/Halo/Killzone/Gears of War/ of killer games released. Games like Madden should only be $20-$30.
Well most of the used games I buy I usually end up buying DLC for if it's available so they do make some money off me, but used is usually much cheaper and when Gamestop has buy 2 get 1 free who can resist. Although a lot of the time i'll buy the game new if the price isn't more than around a $5 difference or if the used copy doesn't have the original box art (yea i'm one of those guys).
the industry is already dying
All those people crying about games being too much, or paying for DLC that is on the disc, or paying the $10 EA online code to play multiplayer.....all of that is due to the people buying used games. Developers making nothing from used so they have to compensate somewhere. Either quit supporting the "pre-owned" industry or get used to paying more and shut the hell up.
DLC on the disc IS ripping off the consumer. Think of it this way, if it's already on the disc as a piece of code, the last couple of generations we had Action Replays that could unlock such things instead of playing a game right until the end for new costumers/characters on the disc. The very fact that this hasn't actually happened this generation is mindnumbing and would stop DLC on disc right away as people don't realise they're only downloading a key to unlock, not content and think it's a 'fast download'. I'd much prefer if I knew for sure, what I was downloading as content was actually something new than the phyiscal copy and not just a 'key'. That's the insult. It's there already. As it is, EA codes for multiplayer and the like. I have no such problem with, it's a logical resolve for people to buy an old copy and play the MP with a sale each time, but STILL at an overall discount for the patient gamer. After all, MP games go right down due to the next thing coming out and the game owner moving onto the next thing, that's probably why they're traded in the first place. The people probably complaining for such multiplayer unlock fees ofr secondhand copies are people that feel paying for an online console gaming service is acceptable. Conclude that one, there's only one service that does.
How only THIS generation pre-owned has suddenly become a problem? Are secondhand DVDs killing the movie industry? No. Are secondhand book shops killing the book publishing industry? No. As a secondhand buyer I have the RIGHT to get a game cheaper as somebody else has gotten their hands on it before me, I can't afford every game on release. It is unjustified for the patient people who actually waited months after release to get the game at the same price as retail and it is within the consumers rights to get the game at a discount. Fact is, you're paying for the newness of the product at retail price in a shop. Not the content in the game. It isn't illegal to buy something that somebody else didn't want. This isn't my problem. If developers made games less likely to be traded in and to be kept and collected, I wouldn't be able to find a secondhand copy of a game to actually buy and resort to slightly cheaper options of of retail internet sites such as Shopto or Play. I'm not the problem, it's the people trading the games and getting bored who are. Besides, you get ripped off when trading games in, but some people don't mind, oddly enough, I very rarely do it because trade in value is ridiculous. I just take economical advantage of that.