Geohot Vs Sony: Round 1

The legal battle between George Hotz and Sony is just beginning to heat up. Hotz filed his defense with the Court today, in which he rebuttals several of Sony’s claims. Of note: Hotz points out that he never accepted any form of payment through Paypal related to his PS3 hacking efforts. Additionally, he alleges no association or involvement with the fail0verflow hacking team.

[Zimmerman]

Say an individual fiddles with hacking electronics for a hobby. This individual, after much effort, manages to find a way to develop games for his console of choice. Now lets say that this method also allows for games to be pirated, just by chance. (sound familiar?)

Being an awesome achievement for an individual, he naturally desires to share a game he has created with his friends. In order to get this game to work on their consoles, he teaches them how to make the necessary changes. All of them use this method honestly, and do not pirate any retail games.

Has anyone done wrong in this situation?

I'm not implying anything, I'm just curious to see what everyone here thinks.

I myself believe that no, they have not done wrong. The individual has pursued a hobby and he and his friends are reaping the rewards of hard work.

IMHO, it is only after an individual decides to pirate(steal) a game that a wrongdoing has occurred. Up until then it is harmless fun.

Having said that, it would still be irresponsible to distribute this method to others who are likely to use it in dishonest ways. The creators and inheritors of the method would therefore share a responsibility to NOT distribute it wildly, for they KNOW that it will often be used for ill-gotten gains.

Similarly, you would only tell a secret to someone you trust. If instead you tell everyone EXCEPT the person who is not meant to know, whose fault is it when word spreads so far that it cannot be contained?

Regardless of what the law says, these groups(Geohot included) have acted irresponsibly and are in the wrong. It is known that people will pirate games given the chance, and the only ones who could have prevented this have chosen to do the exact opposite, nullifying any honest endeavors in the process.

tl;dr

If a woman seduces a man she knows full well is married using recreational drugs, would you maintain that she is completely blameless?

I would say that this situation is much the same. The lure of such a massive library of free games will be very tempting to some, especially when partaking threatens no foreseeable consequences. The people who peddle this method are akin to the seductive woman, tempting otherwise honest people with an offer they cannot refuse. Both those who distribute and those who partake are in the wrong.

Edit: Sorry to type such a long rant. I don't usually have much to say, but when I do it tends to expand with every keystroke 8D

[yewles1]

"All of them use this method honestly, and do not pirate any retail games."

......

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[Zimmerman]

Haha I know, it is a bit of a stretch. Sadly, that is the point. These guys should know that people are going to pirate games, which means they are actively facilitating thievery with full knowledge of the fact.

[DigitalRaptor]

Exactly.

It's like an animal protection campaigners releasing dangerous animals from an enclosure, to set them free with good intentions. Only for them to roam free and kill innocent humans.

What's the phrase? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[fail0verflow]

they want it or not, they're responsible for enabling piracy, and huge loss for Sony

[nveenio]

Sony isn't charging them with pirating games, they're charging them with pirating PS3 code that they know will facilitate piracy and further copyright infringement.

[altimako02]

so if a car manufacture makes a car and people speed and kill someone it is the car manufacture problem because the manufacture did not make the car to do only the speed limit

[Christopher]

***so if a car manufacture makes a car and people speed and kill someone it is the car manufacture problem because the manufacture did not make the car to do only the speed limit ***

Actually, car manufacturers are already limited to specifications to make their cars "street legal". It's the state and federal laws that determine what they can and can't make.

But, in doing so, the car manufacturers do not find and openly distribute the IP of others, thereby allowing the loss of business or worse of other companies.

The question here isn't what GeoHot and others do with their machine, it's what they did with someone else's IP. They own the hardware and can modify it as needed, but once they found obvious data that is the IP of Sony and modified and distributed it, they stepped over a line.

And, furthermore, any hacker knows that nothing is 'unhackable'. So, the concept that hiring these hackers would prevent their future products from being hacked is ludicrous.

[altimako02]

your opinion on crossing the line is YOUR OPINION . and car manufactures do allow ther products to be open to all who purchase it

[Spitfire_Riggz]

Yeah that is bullcrap. I have visited some of the hacker forums just to see what they thought (they all hate sony by the way) and I noticed that on ever post 3/4 of the comments ask when backup managers will be possible. Doesnt sound honest to me.

[HolyOrangeCows]

@inveni0

Exactly. GeoNotz is illegally distributing copy-protected code, with obvious intent to extort ("Quickz! Copy itz becaze Sony is restricting!").

[pimpmaster]

this site really needs a geohot section at this point.

[FailOverHero]

I summon the power of Wall of Text!! Seriously though, that was quite wordy. You should write articles. In fact I think that comment may be longer than the actual article.

[Acquiescence]

He formatted it perfectly and *gasp* used paragraphs.

[RustInPeace]

Wow, nice passive approach to be a douche and bash someone who just stated fact. We all know where you stand on this situation. In fact, I've never even seen your name until all these hacking articles rose up. But anyhow,on topic, I really hope that these scumbags get severe sentences (that is if they end up losing) since not only were they publicly gloating about what they were doing, but when the hammer was about to fall, they released the tools publicly to continue this work.

I get that hackers want to tinker with just about any electronics, but why is it that these "smart" people are sharing this information with ANYONE else? If I were a hacker myself, any information I ever gathered would either stay with me ONLY or just my "team", not some random people using it for malicious purposes.

Wouldn't it be better for a hackers ego to just do whatever they do and just keep it for their personal use (in this situation, just keep your hacked PS3 to yourself until you have someone around to show off what you've done. Making it public just makes/made them a target for attention.)

[jerethdagryphon]

yes if at anypoint he altered of changed another personals data to acomplish this he violates copyright and if at anypoint he simply bypassed something he violates some fraud laws

regardless of reason its against the law most companys will ignore it if its done soley to something that cant hurt them for instance buying a prius and dropping a 12 liter lamboghini engine in there it does no harm to toyota theres nothing specifically secret or sensitive as the haynes manuals detail everything.

but in electronics data that is not made publisc is at best private or classified seeing someones code or similar security detials is a violation of there rights

[Lord_Doggington]

it's not illegal to hack a GUI, FYI

[jerethdagryphon]

in that case add unl;ess otherwise permited to my post

[specialguest]

Well said and written my good man. My brain cells are miraculously regenerating after years of losing brain cells from reading idoictic comments on N4G over the many years.

[THILLREBORN]

I saw a post the other day and it made it very clear...

If you know find out the code to my house alarm and have no bad intentions there is nothing wrong with that but the moment you walk down my block yelling it out you are...the moment you give access to something like the PS3 code to anyone who wants it then you are partially at fault for if games get pirated thus you should serve time in jail.

Thank you Zimmerman for you great post bubbles to you good sir :)

[Lord_Doggington]

XMB is a GUI and unfortunately it's not illegal to hack a GUI, closed or not.

And as long as it's not for profit, it's not illegal to distribute code for a GUI because it's simply not illegal. The same goes w/ the iPhone OS. Geohot won that case, if you didn't know.

The defense will most likely bring up the case of OtherOS which was on the PS3 for YEARS. This clunky version of Linux was able to run emulators. The defense will probably mention that this is a form of enabling piracy, leaving the judge to surmise that the company is just as guilty for the crime they are accusing Geohot of committing.

And before you mention that XMB is a closed system. That doesn't really mean anything at all...

[travelguy2k]

If all GeoHot wanted to do was tinker with the GUI, he could have made a theme and submitted it and possibly made some money.

This does not really have anything to do with the XMB, but with the security of the hardware.

[Lord_Doggington]

The tinkering of the GUI is one of the charges that Sony is bringing up against Geohot.

The security keys of the software is another issue, however. Unfortunately for Sony, Geohot has already won this case w/ the hacked security keys on the iPhone:

"allow iPhone owners to use their phones with applications that are not available from Apple's store, and to unlock their iPhones for use with unapproved carriers."

That application portion is what they will base their case around. If they cite the results from that case in this case, it will be no problem for Geohot to sidestep this whole thing.

The only speed bump that Geohot will hit is the fact that he broadcast it over twitter/youtube which MAY prove intent. It's a longshot and the California court will probably take his youth into consideration. The idiot is only 21 years old. Barely old enough to drink.

If they were being prosecuted in Texas or something, then they would probably throw the book at him. But they're prosecuting in California, where they're willing to listen/consider different angles. Could be good for Sony, could be bad.

Either way this is a stupid move for Sony. The damage is done. It's out there. There's nothing they can do now. They're only feeding the ego of a 21 year old kid who will easily cite his recent win against Apple and walk away a free man w/ notoriety.

[joeorc]

@Lord_Doggington

we have gone on over this already..it's not just a GUI they are Hacking!

for everyone claiming the suit he won over for the Iphone, that was not the same thing as this...Hack

for everone who keeps claim it..please read that case an it's exemptions!

[Lord_Doggington]

lol that's the way you wanna spin it, go ahead

[the_best_player]

Geohot won last time with Iphone

[Lord_Doggington]

yup, which will make it so much easier to win against Sony.

[mantisimo]

cell phones are treated differently in law.

[UnwanteDreamz]

Thinking he will win because Apple couldn't make their charges stick is folly.

Go ahead and assume he will walk away a free man. I'll wait and see because you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.

Did do anything with the Iphone that would have allowed free phone service? If not then this isn't going to go the same way.

[darx]

Sony is not going to win this case.

[ropelli90]

"Did do anything with the Iphone that would have allowed free phone service? If not then this isn't going to go the same way."

@ UnwanteDreamz

Actually he did something that allowed free games on iphone. How is that not going to go the same way?

[UnwanteDreamz]

I read Sony's filings the abridged version.

Geo really screwed himself when he mentioned working for Sony (can be looked at as an attempt to extort for employment.

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(7)(B) – Intent to Extort

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(4) – Intent To Defraud And Obtain Value

He then really screws himself to no end in admiting that this can be used for piracy and then still releasing the info.

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(5)(B) and (C) – Intentional and Reckless Damage And Loss

This shows that he knew that this could cause harm to Sony business and he still released they keys.

This wont end up good for him. I can't comment on failoverflow because I am not sure what law Sony wants to accuse them of breaking.

[Proxy]

Anything which facilitates illegal activities should itself be illegal. This includes PS3 hacks, guns, cars, and pick axes. I still haven't decided if writing utensils should be illegal - but they are very sharp...

[UnwanteDreamz]

Straw Man Fallacy

You are twisting the argument into something else to win it. No one is saying all things that could be used illegally should be illegal. So try to stay on topic.

Let me try your tactic

Did you know you can be charged with manslaughter for over serving an individual alchohol if that individual then kills a person while driving drunk? Alchohol is legal and legal to serv.

[Proxy]

It's clearly illegal to over serve alcohol.

Hacking is not clearly illegal (as case rulings are all over the place). In many cases hacking has been ruled legal. Thus the PS3 hacks are a legal activity which can lead to illegal activity. Similar to legally selling a gun which enabled illegal activity. If your within the law, your not responsible.

Versus over serving alcohol which is illegal activity leading to more illegal activity.

To my knowledge the Sony papers are not alleging piracy.

[Anon1974]

"Has anyone done wrong in this situation?"

Yep. The second the first guy tried to circumvent copyright locks and security in place on the console. That's illegal.

That's really kinda the thing about the law. As citizens, we aren't really supposed to be deciding which laws we agree with and which ones we choose to follow. You might not think circumventing copyright protection on a system is a big deal and might choose to ignore the law, but that doesn't mean it's any less illegal than the guy who thinks it's ok to knock over liquor stores because "those guys have insurance" and decides to knock over a liquor store.

[Zimmerman]

I touched on the point you have made in a comment on another article, actually.

http://n4g.com/news/679273/...

While anarchy would ensue if everyone suddenly decided to do what they thought was best, it is still our job as a society to COLLECTIVELY decide which laws should be followed. That is the true idea behind democracy, albeit the mechanics do function a little differently in the real world.

Blindly following laws simply BECAUSE they are laws is a potentially dangerous thing. Good laws should not clash with the whole of society, though they are bound to clash with different individuals.

"Yep. The second the first guy tried to circumvent copyright locks and security in place on the console. That's illegal. "

Does illegality equate to wrongdoing? Many laws are in place to prevent the opportunity for wrongs to occur, such as the one you are citing. Because they have circumvented copyright lock and security, they have enabled piracy.

However, it is not the actual act of circumvention that is wrong, it is the piracy. Had they kept this a secret amongst themselves and enjoyed it honestly, nobody would have been hurt.

It bothers me that people seem to think that illegal IS THE SAME as wrong, even in a moral sense.

[Balt]

So, let's see here --

A) It's perfectly alright to buy your games used from Gamestop and Amazon and from various pawn shops. And let's face it, most of you probably live mere blocks away from some right now.

but

B) You think hacking a console is wrong because it's taking money away from developers.

Shut the **** up!

P.S. George will win this case without even showing up. Wait and see.

[FailOverHero]

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit?
CG is right, lets not get all lawyered up and start trailing each other, won't change a darn thing. Best we can do is wait and see. I for one am tired of playing devil's advocate

[dragon_rocks]

Lets analyze your used games argument. First to buy used games, people must pay the price and get the used game. So it means it is still keeping financial transaction active and hence keeping some jobs alive somewhere thereby contributing to economy (not everywhere people can buy/download online). Sure its hurting the developers since less new copies of games are being sold but companies can try to attract buyers by offering one time usable codes for additional content like costumes, special guns, extra levels etc. etc. which will be missed out in used copies.

Now if you try and equate this to piracy, lets see, people just sit at home and at very low expense of electricity and net fee, can download games and play them from their hard drives etc. Or maybe someone downloads the games, burns them to disk and then sells them ILLEGALLY to others for low price. You see here, they both are not the same. The piracy aspect not only affects publishers/developers but affects economy in other ways as well.

[Nitrowolf2]

the huge difference is this.

Buying a used game means developer already got their money for it.

So say 5000 People bought Cod used. Thats already 5000 Copies sold and devs made money from.

5000 bought used = around 5000 used copies (returns also are considered used someplaces)

Now say 5000 People pirated that game. Here what it means.
1 user who bought the game legit can upload his copy to the net, so in this case
5000pirated version could = 1 sold copy only that was put up for download.

there is a big difference between buying used and pirating. I don't understand how devs can say that buying used games is almost as bad as pirating when in fact it could be far off, with the example i showed you.

even if people returned the games, there are still going to be copies sold with used compare to pirated copies

[kindi_boy]

if 5000 copies were sold that means the developers got the 5000 worth of copies.

so if the buyers sell their 5000 copies and they become used, and other 5000 people bought those.

there are 10000 people played the game.

so how much did the developers get ? still 5000 worth of copies.

so 5000 people still STOLE 5000 copies FROM the developers EVEN IF THEY STILL paid, why because they paid someone else and not the publisher.

it doesn't matter 1 = 5000 copies stolen, they are BOTH WRONG and considered stealing.

"but but but we are still supporting the developer because we bought used games they still got their sweat worth"...ya right 5000 copies short, what a bunch of hypocrites.

[Nitrowolf2]

wow, devs are still loosing more money compared to used.
Even with your example devs would be better off with the used copies, even if they don't profit off it.

i don't recall anyone saying that devs are still being supported with used copies, but when you show it like i did its more better for devs to have user buy use then pirate.

And no selling used games is not wrong since it's your property, infact a case about someone buying a used software from a garage sale ruled that its allowed for people what ever they want except back it up and distribute that back up.

Would you rather have $60 and have 5000 nonprofitable copies

or would you rather have $300,000 with 5000 nonprofitable?

[UnwanteDreamz]

@ Bait

Wow you don't have any idea what you are talking about kid. If he doesn't show up he will be in contempt of court and a warrant for his arrest could be issued. He could also lose by not appearing.

The rest of your comment is just as ignorant.

[NexGen]

Never been sued before? Lawyers file motions to dismiss charges before trial begins. A dismissal is a win, and is typically done without the defendant present. As in: win without showing up.

[kindi_boy]

I actually agree with you on this.

They don't see it because they don't want to.

if 5000 copies were sold that means the developers got the 5000 worth of copies.

so if the buyers sell their 5000 copies and they become used, and other 5000 people bought those.

there are 10000 people played the game.

so how much did the developers get ? still 5000 worth of copies.

so 5000 people still STOLE 5000 copies FROM the developers EVEN IF THEY STILL paid, why because they paid someone else and not the publisher.

"but but but we are still supporting the developer because we bought used games they still got their sweat worth"...ya right 5000 copies short, what a bunch of hypocrites.

[Exquisik]

Please read Nitrowolf2 post.

Thank you very much.

[Nitrowolf2]

read my reply to your post above

[ChristianGamer]

Let's just all take a breath and not pretend we are lawyers. There's really no use in us battling it out here, won't change whatever outcome this will have. That said, I don't think Sony's got a chance here, the law is pretty clear on this and ah ah ah ah, I got you! I was just kidding on that last part.

[Call_me_Ishmael]

his name is George?????lol wtf

anyways,i hope this win goes out to sony,ive had it with this guy,he was the sole reason sony removed other os

[FailOverHero]

Compelling. Like the way you laugh at his name, George, lame right? I mean yeah, what kinda stupid name is that? Who names their kid that amarite?? Yeah no totally wtf is exactly what I thought too. Because I thought his name would be something awesome like Budakai or Logan or Ishmael or something else cool like that right?
*facepalm*

[evrfighter]

Ouch.

[Call_me_Ishmael]

whats wrong with you man,lol you butthurt???
ive seen you before on the other articles defending hackers and fail0verflow,you a fan of him,what,do you let him bang your mom too?

[RSPproductionz]

I take it your George Hotz then? Hot by name but not by nature

[GodsHand]

Curious George always gets into trouble, have you never read any of his books?

[NatureOfLogic]

"ive seen you before on the other articles defending hackers and fail0verflow,you a fan of him,what,do you let him bang your mom too?"

same can be said about all you butthurt sony fanboys, and seriously, laughing at someones name grow up.

[Acquiescence]

It's like calling a kid Alfred or Herbert for heavens sake!

[mantisimo]

Rather suspect that BALT calls him by his christian name when everyone else calls him Geo?

Hmmmmmmm.....

[Call_me_Ishmael]

@kingelixer

dude,when did i ever laugh at his name,fact is i was laughing cause instead of using the name george(whis is my brothers name for a fact)he chooses to use a stupid name like geohot
and i respect any feeling and opinions that you would like to express on n4g but please keep the fanboy name calling to a minimum.

[Captain Tuttle]

So apparently Sony sent GeoHot a $1 donation via Paypal on his iPhone hacking site as proof that he is taking money for his PS3 hack.

[R_aVe_N]

I don't think he has a different site for the PS3. If he was dishing out code on that site yes all it would take is 1 dollar to get him in trouble I think. I got in trouble in the past for taking donations on a fansub site for anime for the same reason. It wasn't even fansubs that I made it was for hosting of the site.

[Alcohog]

I will pay money for people to stop referring to him as GeoHot.

[Acquiescence]

I just call him Frodo these days.

Boy oh boy, I bet he could really go for that ring right now eh? He's in court. Now he isn't!

[RSPproductionz]

GeoCold? GeoHack? GeoJoe? GeoFrodo? GeoD?

[GodsHand]

Curious George, has a friend with a big yellow hat (might be his lawyer), and a suit to match.

[DJMarty]

Bypassing copyright protection, reverse engineering Firmwares, SDK's and Service dongles, using Sony's code and then making public Keys/tools is what they are charged with.

And guilty as charged.

Jail them and through away the key. LOL

[JonnyBigBoss]

You're done for Geohot. BUY your games instead of stealing them, and support the industry. I hope this guy goes down in a big, big way.

[Infernostew]

All of those claiming that Sony doesn't have a case need to get real. First of all Geo and the flow dudes used Sony's code which is copyrighted without permission and I'm positive that the lawyer who work for Sony know the law a lot better than some kids on a website who think that hacking is perfectly legal just because they can jailbreak their mobile phones.

[computeSci]

The defense attorney on Geo's behalf also knows more about the law than you. No offense. Read it.

If you want to debate it, then you're going against your own word. I'm sure you know more about the law than his defense attorney... right?

EDIT: BTW, fail0verflow team used their "own method" to calculate keys (not Sony's code) geo then used their method to calculate keys in his exploit to bump it up a notch.

It is what it is. Common sense.

One other thing. You can't copyright "keys".

[beavis4play]

and your thinking that geos lawyer knows more than sonys CORPORATE lawyers who do nothing but this on a daily basis?

and what you call "common sense".......many call: theft/hacking/stealing/copyrig ht infringement

just why are you so determined to support this loser?

[computeSci]

beavis,

So you're saying because they're "CORPORATE" lawyers, they are smarter, right? Sony's programmers must be top notch too since it's a big COOPERATION and all.

It's just common sense. You didn't read the defense filing did you? Sony really doesn't have a case.

How could you steal something that's in something you own?

If the hackers would of hacked Sony's HQ computers, that's theft. But they were just tampering own their own hardware. Simple as that.

The hackers use their OWN methods to caculate keys. ::::not Sony's code::::

Although it's not possible to copyright hex characters, what would happen IF you could?

Say I want to copywrite 47 EE 74 54 E4 77 4C C9 etc...
I would send it in and oh my, that information is made public now. Common sense.

It was Sony's job to make the keys private. They failed at it buy using a bad algorithm. That's all there is to it.

In the real world if someone gains access to your pin number or social security, you change it. But it's your job to protect it. But it's not as easy for Sony to do that. That's why it's such an epic fail on their behalf.

I don't support piracy. But I'm aware of common sense.

[joeorc]

it's not the key's it's what is tied to those key's can people free distribute someones XMB code?

example i take someone's firmware add to it an re distribute that code as mine?

which is what they are infact doing. there is parts of the evidence that is sealed in the case file.

the fact that George is using a lawyer from the jersy Bar also means he's using pretty much a public defender and they are right now pushing for a motion of dismissal because they do not want to go to calfornia to defend himself.
also to avoid his hardware from being impounded

if the judge ok's the impounding which seems very likely i have no doubt this will not be good for george..but we will see won't we.

[computeSci]

joeorc

The problem is that they're not using Sony's code. A custom firmware is a completely NEW FIRMWARE, modified for the use of homebrew. In other words, if that said custom firmware uses no copyrighted Sony code, it is legal. The installation of a custom firmware is entirely legal, but it is what you do with it that makes it legal or not.

[beavis4play]

computesci - your "common sense" is what is going to ruin gaming for all of us that just want to enjoy high-quality gaming.
i'm not going to fight with you - everyone on this site who supports these hacker losers can have a great time stealing games. and hey! maybe sony will quit the games business because of your actions and we'll never see all of the great exclusives that were due to hit in the coming months/years.......i guess you'll feel like a real nerdly stud then?

i don't know why i even wasted my time with you

[sciCompute]

beavis

You. Just. Don't. Get it.

Why you gotta direct that at me? Common man get real. Like my opinion is going to have an impact on this.

I'm just being real and have an open mind. I can't do nothing about it. You're arguing is not going to do nothing about it. It is what is. I'm not siding with nobody (like that's going to accomplish anything)

Custom firmwares are not about "stealing games". If you would actually read my post I had mention it's is what you do with a CF that makes it legal or not.

Your demeanor kind of rubs on me in a sour way :/

[TheJackasaurus]

FINISH HIM!!

[denero1]

to be honest sony is making fatal mistakes sending geohot one dollar in his paypal to make it look like he was accepting donations

[monet man]

right now im online with my jailbroken ps3 playing black ops if i get banned owell i have 4 more to get modded also im playing it off the hard drive ...............

[blackburn5]

I think we should just sit back and see how this plays out rather then go it over so many times. It may look like the case is open and shut in favour of the hackers but it looks like Sony has a chance of winning as well. They didn't hack it like they did with the Iphone. They took Sony's codes and distributed it to others fully knowing what it could be used for. My point is stop making a big deal out of this. If Sony loses I am sure they have other methods to fight this and the battle will continue. If the hackers lose, who cares? If they are stuck paying damages to Sony for the rest of their lives it's their fault. No one really cares. If they lose, I will wake up the next day, turn on my unmodded PS3 and play my games as usual while they toil and scrape to pay Sony back. They are not victims. They are hackers who were so busy trying to gain fame and recognition that they crossed the line. They deserve no help or sympathy from anyone. @ monet man even if that is true that is idiotic.

[Sarobi]

Hahahahaha.
enough said.

[NeloAnjelo]

Yeah I'll just copy the code and share it online... for fame...

Hope they all BURN!

[joeorc]

"joeorc

The problem is that they're not using Sony's code. A custom firmware is a completely NEW FIRMWARE, modified for the use of homebrew. In other words, if that said custom firmware uses no copyrighted Sony code, it is legal. The installation of a custom firmware is entirely legal, but it is what you do with it that makes it legal or not."

it's not just the Code!

do you not get that..just look at the CFW...does it look exactly like the XMB?

does it perform the same TAG's and the Same dynamic themes as the XMB..does it have the exact same Background's as the XMB does it contain the same Layout in its GUI as the XMB?

calling it CFW when you take the existing code an recompile it to change it does not net you clear an free of copy right infringement.

that's exactly what they are doing. you cannot claim they are using custom code when you hear thing's like this:

"Wohooo! Now your Playstation 3 runs on your own created custom firmware. The custom firmware in question only add little modification that lets you install pkg files directly."

they are using official Firmware from sony an changing it so how again are they not using code from Sony?

[sciCompute]

joeorc,

Let me explain again,

A custom firmware is completely NEW FIRMWARE. It does not use or modify Sony's code. Period. In other words, you can't remove/modify Sony's code that's not meant to be removed/modified. That's illegal. You can "ADD" files to it w/o touching or using any of Sony's code. That's legal.

It's kind of a look but you can't touch type of situation. The hackers find a hole in Sony code. They inject their code into said hole and gain access to keys.

Keys are not code. The cannot be copyrighted.

[joeorc]

in this case it's not i have the links to go to the site's my self an i know how it's done..an it's is not Code they make themselves it's the code they change that's the problem.

i know what they are doing an it's a very gray area but , that is why Mainly Sony is taking them to court..because what they are doing is trying to say what the consumer does with their "OWN PS3's " firmware is not subject to Sony's ownership of their own ps3's XMB.

you cannot add thing's to that firmware without Sony OK that is changing Sony's Firmware the firmware belongs to Sony not you.

the Consumer EULA expressly talks about that an yes Court cases about the EULA is a binding contract!

Example:
http://scholar.google.com/s...

they are trying to claim ownership of the XMB on their PS3 the court system is the one that's going to rule on what is construed as ownership in this case. but the XMB is most likely completely Sony's no matter what weather you as a end user can alter that firmware without Sony OK is what the court will decide, an im pretty sure it's going to side with Sony.

rooting your device is not the same thing as this.

[Hassassin]

I don't need piracy... I have COD Blops and my friends can lend me any game I wan't...
If I have the money to buy a game I will (and surely buy the one that seems more worth it), but meanwhile I can play (try) all these games that I wouldn't buy anyways.

[aGameDeveloper]

When I read a legal brief and see grammar and punctuation issues such as:

"Without consenting to personal jurisdiction Mr. George Hotz by and through his attorney of record specially appears and respectfully submits"

"Rather, it's an attempt for Sony to send a message"

"First, it asserts personal jurisdiction over the Mr. Hotz"

"The next basis for jurisdiction put forth by Sony is even more curious: Mr. Hotz alleged use of Youtube, Twitter, and Paypal as"

"claiming that Mr. Hotz 'tricked' the Playstation Computer to running unauthorized programs"

"That cat is not going back in the bag"

"Sony has instead chosen to quote internet chat boards"

I start to worry for the defendant. Well, maybe not...

[onanie]

An interesting observation.