NowGamer: Dr. Richard Marks, the man behind PlayStation Move, has told NowGamer how important it is for developers that motion control peripherals use as little processing overhead as possible...
Yeah. When Microsoft pulled the CPU out of Natal/Kinect, they made it sound like it would not be a big deal. But developers know differently. They know that Kinect will have a major impact on the available resources of the game system. Don't take my word for it. Just look at the Kinect games and the Kinect tech demos. They're all painfully simple.
First again Gwave? lmao! Take a look at the first games to arrive on the 360 or PS3 compared to now. Nobody will be taking your word for anything. No worries there superstar. This dude can't wait for Kinect.
The more I hear talk about move and kinect, the more apparently clear it becomes that truly microsoft really does have something to worry about when it comes to the move! And its become palpitable, just listen to the xbox fanatics they are afraid of the potential that the ps3 move has , so much so that they can hear their own heartbeats with ringing in the ears! This like trying to convince yourselves that there is no such thing as monsters, even though you can hear heavy breathing coming from under the bed. Microsoft and their fanboy brigade have made it their mission and full time job to blacklist, tarnish even slander the reputation of sony to get ahead. But now their time is short and they know it, that is why they are doing everything in their power to drag sony down with them
Lets not forget that one of the first games on ps3 was uncharted...
Take a look at the first games to arrive on the 360's Kinect and PS3's Move. Oh wait, please don't for your own sake 36T! >_<
games like heavenly sword and the first motorstorm still look better and do more than most 360 games and multi-platform ps3 games. i mean, things have improved but, not by THAT much unless we are talking about 3rd party multi-platforms.
36T has a point... until you compare the early Move games to early Kinect games. Move wins... again. Kinect will sell like crazy for a little while and then drop off the face of the earth. Move will build slowly as Socom 4 and Killzone 3 Dual Shock players start to understand they are being destroyed by the Move users. Of course the use of the 360's CPU is a problem, just not one that effects it's potential to play real games. It's basic design does that on it's own. At those below who think Kinect will improve with the next XBox, don't be silly. The same limitations that make it a joke this generation will make it a joke next generation. Move is just better all around. Face it.
Lets keep this simple shall we Kinect sucks Move pwns (but it cant pwn the good ol' mouse)
dude all you talk is the sales talk...why do that? when you get kinect your gonna be stuck with kinectimals and some other mini games...what will sales do for you then
Think about it though, they aren't really targeting us as consumers for the product. It may be simple, but that's more than enough to please casual gamers
The xbox was supposed to be easy to develop for with no real tricks to get optimizations while the ps3 takes a little bit more work but the end result can be much better (ie learning to properly use the cores).. So if the above statement is true, as it has pretty much been accepted to be, then it doesn't really make sense that the xbox would have really any significant amount of unseen potential left at this point in the game... The selling point was that it wouldn't be hard to get the most out of it right off the bat. now we are trying to do a 180 and say that there are optimizations that no one had a clue about for the past 5 years that will double the system's performance and make the processing requirements for the kinect negligible.. Or maybe we are saying that We bought a system where all the developers were too lazy to try and figure out anything new for the past 5 years, and now we wave a magic wand and *BING* the performance is there... I've seen alot of gimmicks and trickery used by recent 360 games and i've seen improvements in cg, but when we talk about amazing graphics we are really referring to "in-game play"... not cg... referring to trailers of games that show almost no in-game play is kind of pointless.. Example of trickery: ALAN WAKE: the whole flashlight thing was cool, but you realize this was a trick so that they didn't have to draw to the whole screen. This freed up more resources for the part of the screen that wasn't black.. It also still lacked far behind UC2 in its attention to details. UC2 is a benchmark because of the amazing graphical details that were implemented in the game.. Details that no other games have really come close to matching.. And yes it is pretty amazing that after being out almost a year, games are still struggling to match its level of quality and detail... especially amazing when this game came out less than 2 years after the original uncharted. Getting Back to the point: The kinect is centered around casual games... i really don't see it being applied to many hardcore games for the reason of processor drag.. Kinect has been focused on casual games and media applications... its going to be cool in that area. The move allows for much easier implementation into hardcore high budget games at the expense of still using a peripheral... Honestly, im probably getting both.. and honestly after a few months, i probably won't use either that much... and they will collect dust like my wii does now... except for once in a great while...
Crysis has better details than any other game.
It's probably going to be taxing for a game like Gears 3 but so far all Kinect games seem kind of animated and should be fine. If developers are constantly figuring out news ways to push system performance I don't see how Dr.Move can say what the limits are pretty much.
The 360 is ALREADY limited as is. Think about it. If MS could do a UC2 level game on the 360, they would have done it. Now, Kinect comes along and limits the 360 even more. How is that good? Heck, soon enough 360 game and Wii games will be indistinguishable.
Rage already looks better than UC2 as well as certain elements in games like Alan Wake and even Gears 3 is up there if not beyond. 360 is constantly progressing and putting an end to all of the it's maxed out claims. You hold no credibility period if you think UC2 is the end all be all game. Sure it looks great but there are better looking games on the way.
A few months ago PS3 fanboys were saying that Gears of War 2 was the limit for the 360. They said, just as you are saying now, "Think about it, if MS could make a game that looks better than Gears of War 2, they would have done it already." With further software optimization, developers will continue to make better-looking games on the 360. It's a matter of time, not of power. Imperator, I have to say, you are pretty dull. Can you improve your comments?
I think candystop is talking about killzone 3 and GT5 :)
must be better this way that having a processor in the thing (that could be hacked), and paying $300 for it instead of half.
CandyStop...PC rage may be 'better' looking than UC2...but the 360/PS3 versions sure as hell are not...and with Carmack already stating how much of a problem they were having with 360 disc space, and how much it taxes their 'megatexture' tech for ID5...it simply isn't in the cards for a console version of Rage to top UC2... don't get me wrong, Rage still looks great on consoles...but its easy to dismiss how incredible Uncharted 2 is visually this long after release...I stopped reading once I noticed Alan Wake and Gears 3...so I really hope you didn't say anything about those games compared to UC2 either... and SOAD...what 360 game has topped Gears 2?...from a technical standpoint; Alan Wake did some things better, particularly with lighting...but extremely dated animation, character models, and a very low resolution hold it back compared to that of what UE3 is capable of...ME2 is arguably better looking than Gears 2, but thats the same engine anyway, and isn't doing anything technical that Gears 2 isn't...just a different art direction that some may find more appealing... so the 'ps3 fanboys screaming Gears 2 was the limit' is still somewhat grounded isn't it?...I sure haven't seen a game on the 360 that trashes it...thats for sure...
just got to say to candystop and all the others who keep saying that rage is better looking than uc2, RAGE IS MULTIPLATFORM...
@cold It is not "SOny", it is just the guy behind the MOVE tech answering a question. I think he is wrong in a way: Kinect is not supposed to be used in games that really push the console to its limits, mostly in casual stuff so it will have power available.
Kinect will NEVER be able to be in games geared towards the hardcore market like MS pr people would have you believe.
hes the guy behind move tech who also made eyetoy and during thats development was working with the camera that makes kinect possible frankly with his resume ill believe what he says
the amount of negative response for kinect is driving up the popularity meter on the main page. I guess bad press is better than no press. The ps3 fans need to be in the move articles rather than kinect ones. This one is a move one but to get hits it is referencing kinect. Go figure. As for this post, Marks never said kinect directly in any of his comments. The answers reflect as if the questions were specifically about move with no relation or mention of kinect at all. I mean, it isnt hard to ask the question "how important is it to keep cpu usage low when working with move?" and then rephrase it in writing to "Asked if the rumored Kinect overheads would pose a problem for developers...." The second question sounds more intriguing than the first but can be used with the same answer given. Journalism can be tricky. Just because it's in writing doesnt make it ALWAYS fact.
What are you talking about? Kinect is clearly mentioned in the interview regarding that topic.
GIVE THAT MAN BUBBLES
Right now, we only saw like 4 [FOUR] games that look like mini-games more than anything, with no powerful graphics and that kind of stuff Those 4 games have problems, Lag, flawed motion detection, not detection at all and with the amount of "restrictions" the add-on has, like, not be able to play while sit cos kinect can't differentiate the couch with the legs, use only tight clothes cos kinect can't track movements with baggy clothes, kinect need 6 feet of free space to play with it, problems with illumination, problem detecting colors, black or dark colors essentially, flawed detection and more So, people can say whatever they want, it's more than obvious that there is a problem with the device, or MS was thinking to high about this camera and at the end the add-on can't deliver what was promised but cos of the limitations of the camera itself, or the problems are because in order to make the add-on more "affordable", MS took out an important piece of hardware that make the camera work as supposedly, something really stupid cos there is no person in the world that is going to buy an expensive add-on that works bad...
expensive add-on that works bad. And thats the point the new device got to be reliable when your playing a game or it just wont be fun or excepted as a new way of control and be collecting dust.....Now move as been tested and praised showing that it can be a new way of control in games socom 4,killzone 3 and party games it can do all type of games and the inportant part it works a treat to control
I have a theory, all of the 360 fanboys on this site can't be that blind and ignorant, I think they are all pulling a big joke on us they are all grouping together and trying to come up with thee most illogical and ignorant comment and see if we will finally call them on their B.S. well here I am calling it, you guys can stop now we're on to you; really just stop.
Oh" How quickly we forget that one of the first admissions from Sony about Move was that it uses 1 of the spu's for processing. SO folks if one of the available 6 spu's is constsntly in use for the Move controller then that up to 17% of the ps3's spu power being used Why do you all forget and never listen...The Move tech guy also says that they try and minimize the cpeu usage not that the move doesn't use any of the ps3's cpu. And how can we forget that the move is tied to the ps eye for its 3D motion tracking and the ps eye is the moves weak spot games that use it for any of the things that kinect can do like track your legs will be just as laggy if not more.
Dude, it uses 1 SPU as it obviously needs to do its calculating somewhere but it dosnt use that SPU to 100% of its calculating abilites - i think the figure quoted was 10 - 15% of one SPU. In contrast Kinect uses 20% of the TOTAL CPU resources.
I really don't know what this talk is all about. Kinect has absolutely no relevance for core gaming. However I doubt that Kinect will ever work properly. M$ should not build any hardware, it's not their strength al all.
Couldnt have said it better myself. If they had left the processor in the Kinect im sure it would have been MUCH better. To bad i guess.
Good point, Dr Marks. I think core gamers will want to play core games with these new technologies. And only these kind of games. Mind you, this is probably the only way Sony can justify the high price of Move.
is this another blinkered view spreading the net? a bit like the 'brand new tech' that everyone already knows we've seen three times before with Eyetoy, PSeye and Vision camera? it costs £50 to play Move games it costs $140 to play Kinect games
It cost 50 pound to play some move games and allot more to play them all. Why the use of 2 currencies move 100-200 dollar
dont mix currency. staying in american dollars $100 to play Move (tho you cant play the boxing game, and any other game that needs 2 move controllers) $150 ti okay Kinect
no it doesn't Mike. you can play all MOVE games with the £50 bundle sorry about the $, it was a typo
So u want to admit that there will be no more move games for which u will need to pay ?
Move is all it will be now. It's 1:1 now but they would need to upgrade hardware for skeletal recognition. Also the more people the more controllers. Kinect becomes more powerful with every new console. It has the complete package as far as ability, it just needs a more powerful processor. The 360 is fine to bring in the Wii crowd and it's non gamers. But the next generation will bring the power for the hardcore player. And just like Kinect, Move will use PS3 resources to work too. Plus while Kinect recognizes that their is a human being in front of it. Move just realizes that the controller has moved and where it moved to. If your dog knocks you Move controller across the floor, he could screw up your game. Kinect realizes the dog doesn't belong there.
move uses the same resources as the pseye and a ds3 so very little something like 1% of the processing power avalible
and track more than "just the controller"
Lol your comment is full of fail.. "If your dog knocks your move controller across the floor, he could screw your game." Wow what was that rubbish? First of all move has alot more potential then what has been shown.. I watched a video yesterday that demoed the "augmented reality" that is capable on move which allows you to essentially become the character on screen.. They also showed a demo of how move will work in rts games which just havent been possible on consoles up to this point... Oh and gran turismo 5's head tracking says hi... You really need to know what you are talking about before posting.. I feel embarassed for you..
Some of you PS3 fans are delusional. Do you really believe a camera can be as accurate as a well powered camera with and IR camera combination. In your brain somehow more information is less valuable. You fail. And they can augment all they want. The ability to see the form of the human body as apposed to knowing where a controller is are two different things. And while the PSEye can sense head movements, cam it see hand gestures or skeletal structure. Here's reality if you can handle it. If the PSEye can do everything Kinect can do, Sony is making a fool of of PS3 owners by making them buy Move. The fact is the Eye needs those controllers to be accurate. Kinect added the IR camera instead of more controllers. But it can still use a controller which means it has even more options. With enough power, the combination of an IR and CCD camera can be 1:1. And a new generation console could provide that power.
100 bucks for the basics, FOR ONE PERSON TO PLAY, the pseye and a move and you get crappy wiisports clone probably. But not the fighting game, those need 2 moves. Also when you want to play a game like House of the Death: OVerkill remake with 2 people, you need 2 moves. So on top of that 100 basic pack, its another 50 to play all games and/or with 2 players.That makes 150. Already the costs of a Kinect. Then if you want to play serious games like Socom 4 or KZ3 you need a sub. Yeah you can use the DS3 but it ain't comfortable to hold in one hand. Fork out another 30 bucks. That makes 180. Then we haven't even spoken about 3 or 4 player games that uses 1 or 2 more moves which adds another 50 to 100 bucks. That makes 230 to 280 bucks to achieve the same as one Kinect let you do. For a family, Kinect is always the cheaper option. For a single gamer, using Move to the max with 2 moves, its just as expensive as Kinect. For the gamer that already owns the PSeye and won't play the games that need 2 moves, yes, its only 50 bucks, or 80 if you want that sub for hardcore FPS.
"Then we haven't even spoken about 3 or 4 player games that uses 1 or 2 more moves which adds another 50 to 100 bucks. That makes 230 to 280 bucks to achieve the same as one Kinect let you do.For a family, Kinect is always the cheaper option." But you cant play with 3 or 4 players at the same time on kinect. http://www.industrygamers.c...
So now people are starting to make rumors facts? Wow, impressive... NOT I'm pretty sure I've seen Kinect videos with 4 people moving in front of it (family, mother, father, 2 kids). Furthermore, pretty sure MS will support family play and not just 2 player co-op. If such a rumor could become reality, I bet this would be for example for some games and not all games, that there still would be 4 player experiences. Probably something as Socom 4 or KZ3 co-op also works with max. 2 x Move player splitscreen and not 3 or 4. So enjoy using rumors as 'facts', while you do, read the logic I wrote above, as it is correct.
playstation move, playstation eye and demo disc - £49.91 playstation subcontroller - £24.91 extra move controller - £34.91 total(IF you want an extra controller) - £109.73 kinect sensor with kinect adventures - £129.99 Why do people talk bullshit? Edit: Very worrying that on amazons "What are other customers looking at", kinect and a 360 were both plastered on the homepage. Kinect is gonna sell very well...I hope people arent disapointed when they get a piece of shit in a microsoft box sent to them in november....
imo kinect is not a good product and is definately not good value for money. The 360 itself is brilliant because of the good games but kinect does not share that description.
so a video you seen is facts now? All the demos they show being played are with 1 or 2 people playing. Never see 3 or 4.
Article has good points on Move and Eyetoy, but no where does Dr. Marks mention Kinect. Change the title.
Asked if the rumored Kinect overheads would pose a problem for developers, Marks replied: "Definitely. Because we want our core games to use Move - a game like Killzone 3 is taxing the PS3 pretty heavily. If we use too much of the CPU or memory of the PS3, they'd never be able to use Move."
Which says nothing about Kinect. He's commenting on Move, with no real insight into how Kinect is working.
If you watch the full interview you will see where they talk about the Kinect, only for a second though.
It all depends on what the game is using from kinect. If its just simple hand movements or voice recognition then it will barely take up any CPU. I don't see many core games using the entire body at one time so this won't be a huge problem, plus one chip is still in Kinect. And this guy is talking about eyetoy, he knows nothing of kinect and what it's capable of.
obviously he does know what he is talking about, everyone knows that the only real diffrence is the 3d camera, everything else is basically eyetoy 1.5
It does depend on what kind of games we're talking about. For the Wii-Sports like games we're seeing on Kinect right now, they aren't that impressive from a standpoint of graphics, physics, lighting, etc. There's lots of processing power available for your 360 to see you jump and then make your avatar do something kinda similar a second later like we've seen in the demonstrations so far. Obviously we aren't going to see games like Gears or Halo on Kinect, but that's not the point. The point is simple games that are accessible to everyone and those aren't going to suck up much processing power comparatively. As for Omega4's last point, I disagree. How does he know this guy doesn't know anything of Kinect. He's a developer working on motion control. He probably knows a helluva lot about the different tech out there.
And in the mean time we get to have Killzone 3, Socom 4, Heavy Rain, etc., etc., with Move. And then a game like Sorcery. I mean, doesn't the fact alone that Move can handle this kind of games prove that Dr. Marks is correct?
"And in the mean time we get to have Killzone 3, Socom 4, Heavy Rain, etc., etc., with Move" You know who else gets to play those games right...non move owners. That right there tells me the level of move interaction is actually second thought considering the core audience will still be using the regular controller. The thing with kinect is that a game for kinect really cant be played any other way. The core move games are just adding a different control scheme but not really requiring move in order to enjoy the game otherwise. Move was an after thought on sony's part. Much like the eyetoy, the hdd and bba. They are taking their old ideas that failed on the ps2 and revamping them for use on the ps3. What is old is new again I guess. The only thing remotely related to kinect MS has was the live vision cam.
@Darthv72 so the fact you have to use Kinect to play Kinect games is better than having two options? playing with a controller or with the Move? Personally if my arms get tired of Move I can just switch on my DS3 and play Killzone 3 and let my arms rest. That sounds a better idea to me. This guy been doing motion controls for years I think he knows far more than any of you what Kinect can and can't do lol
I guess it would depend on how deeply involved they want the integration to be. It could get to a point where it would be like the wii. Remember, the wii-mote is an integral part of the entire system even if you use it as a regular controller or point it at the screen. Kinect gives choice. Just that there would be more specific kinect games that would not use a controller just as there would be dual role games that use both kinect AND a controller. Move is nothing more than an alternate controller for ps3. Much like the media center remote is for the 360. It lets you navigate the screen and press buttons and you could even play a few games with it but it isnt the primary control scheme that the developers intended. Yes you could put move down and pick up a DS3. Now could you put down the move AND the DS3 and still be able to function? Move and kinect are different. People need to stop making them out to be the same. One requires controller interaction, one does not.
There is nothing going on in most Kinect titles that can't be done with a controller. You can still play racing games or rafting games and bowling games. But the main thing people are ignoring is that Kinect gets better with the next console. Which will be far more powerful. So Kinect and the 360 works fine for the audience it was made for. The next Xbox and Kinect will be fine for the hardcore player. But Kinect's ability to understand what the body is doing coupled with a new CPU will make Kinect much more powerful than Move could ever be. And Darkride they removed that CPU from Kinect.
And you said DISKINCT can do complex hardcore games with comeplex motions and with very little lag. You just pwn yourself Omega4!!!
This Video show Dr Richard Marks demoing the 3dv cam on a PS2. Both nintendo and sony turned down this tech (3dv camera) a long time ago. Dr. Richard Marks knew way more about this thing before MS knew it existed. this link shows you tech demos he made for Kinect or 3dv camera years ago. i copied the link using my ps3 not sure if you can click it but copy the link below and check it out http://www.youtube.com/watc... Omega = PWNEDDDDD
doesnt mean hes sat down with the current version of Kinect along with its software (kinect is 90% software, and just a little hardware at this point) and knows how everything works with it, and how much over head it consumes on the 360.
Solid why do you think kinect had onboard ram to begin with? It needs alot of ram to run all of those complex process.. But it's a catch 22, that on board ram drives up the cost of kinect.. It's still expensive despite the lack of onboard ram.. Dr Marks knows more about the tech behind kinect then you or me or anyone on this site.. There's a reason sony and nintendo turned this tech down years ago and now you're seeing it.. It just cant be done cheaply.
Omega4, give it a rest. The guy knows more about Kinect, Move, and Wii than anyone here at N4G. He's spent a decade researching and developing these peripherals. It's his job to know these things. When it comes to who to listen to, you or him, I'm going to go with him 100% of the time. I wish Microsoft allowed the people behind Kinect to speak more freely like Dr. Marks because then we'd get even more insight into the technologies being presented to us rather than just marketing speak.
omega the 3dv camera used in kinect was also used experminted with and then rejected by sony during the eyetoys development oh by dr. marks heres the vid http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Your quote:"Now could you put down the move AND the DS3 and still be able to function? Move and kinect are different. People need to stop making them out to be the same. One requires controller interaction, one does not." Have you seen that new Kung Fu fighting game or the European version of Eye Pet, both do not have any controller schemes of any kind. The two cameras have many things in common (Kinect is a bit more advanced with the 3D/infrared camera)... both can track body motion & voice recognition etc. I'll be willing to bet that if Kinect ends up getting a super popular game that sells like crazy... that same game or a clone with be released for the PSEye camera a year later.