DVD size limiting Project Gotham Racing 4

According to a developer over at the official Project Gotham 4 Racing forums, they are having problems Fitting all the data of the tracks which was unveiled at today into the game.

He writes :

"You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD."

[TriggerHappy]

this is going to be epic. *runs to a corner and puts on anti-fanboy shield*

[ReconHope]

What is your shield made of? lol

[Azures]

Its made of blu-ray discs, they can deflect 5x the flame of a DVD 9...and the reinforced multi-layer blu-ray shields...wow thats a lot of flame protection!

[uxo22]

This is EXACTLY what downloadable content is for, especially for people with the Elite systems with 120g of HD space. It's not like they not going to release all kinds of crap in xbox live marketplace for PGR4 anyway.

EDIT: @sonarus (Below) Come on dude, I don't know about you but I don't play 25 games at the same time. And in most case as with most people, after they have beaten a game once or twice, they put the disc away never to be played again. (in most cases). You act as if people would let their HD fill with downloadable content for games that they are no longer going to play. (be fa real)

It doesn't matter anyway, people will disagree with you in most cases on this site without giving any thought to a point of view that doesn't match their own. I never said that downloadable content was the best option, I only said it could be used. Also remember, all games DON'T require 25-50 gig. So, please don't take this issue to the extremes.

[sonarus]

wat do you mean this is what downloadable content is for. Thats not what its supposed to be for. DVD-9 cannot be sufficient for the entire generation so you want them to take advantage of downloabale content to balance it out. This is only the begining 2nd yr for the 360 i wonder how many games we will see having problems with size. Oh well dual disks is always an option

@nigglet
Confirmed by an unknown source that dosent work for kojima. I am sorry but i will take kojima's word over your OXM anyday. You can be a blind fanboy all you want and thats ok. Multidisks are cool and its funny you mention scratched disks considering 360 disks are easier to scratch and in fact the 360 even gives you a hand with that. LOL. I mean how hard is it for you to accept. You can never go wrong with extra space you can continue with your downloadable content after downloadable content till you essentially run out of hard drive space. PGR will be a great game because i am sure the developers will get around the lack of space but denying the lack of space in dvd-9 to be an issue is just blind fanboyism

[Nigglet]

No, they will always be insecure about the memory gimped PS3. Gran tourismo was on 2 discs on the playstation you pathetic retards. If they thought it was really hurting or restricting the game they would use 2 discs also. But it is not that big of a deal to them, so it is not a big deal. You sony idiots look pathetic everytime you bring this up because there will NEVER be an advantage to blu-ray because of compression technology and...use 2 discs or..download content. If you want more storage on blur-ray they go further and further towards the surface making it easier and easier to scratch, good luck with that, I'd rather have two safe discs or download content.
And the retards below me, people say you don't need a new format because you don't, what dumb post, and the guy below him is even worse, FF games were mostly on 4 discs you ignorant ars. You people...just funny. I know these people will drift as replies are made their ignorance remains.
By the way, MGS 4 is no longer PS3 exclusive, it is reported in the Official Xbox magazine August issue on page 88 that the port is being done by a different team of course since the one guy quit, but the xbox 360 version will come out a few months after the PS3 :)
LOL at dui, you better change your post before people ralize how retarded you are, gran tourismo was on 2 discs anyone who played it knows, 1 for sim mode and 1 for multiplayer. Now who is retarded?
And anyone who read August xbox mag knows MGS is coming to xbox, owned again. You will have me laughing to myself all day.

[D_U_I]

Go back to school.

1. How the hell did i get owned, simple mistake.... assface
2. MGS4 is ps3 exclusive, when Metal gear comes to xbox i will become GOD... Its not going to happen, so take your 180 and tears of war and go rub your wet**************** sorry i'm a gamer not a [email protected]

Cheers.

[NTSC-J]

Gran Turismo 2 came with two discs. One disc for Simulation mode and One disc for arcade mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[SmokeyMcBear]

damn whats with the racist names up on here lately, nigglet, change your name.

And yes GT has been on 2 discs, I believe they were CDs

[KingME]

If you have the core of the game on a DVD9 disk and you are running out of space for thinks like additional tracks and other stuff not pertinent to playing the game. Why can't you use downloadable content, wasn't shivering Ilse downloadable for the 360? I mean disagree all you want, but it would be nice if people disagreed when it makes sense. But, how can you say tracks and other content can not being added to a game through downloadable content.

Everybody in the world don't have to jump on the blu-ray hddvd train. Stop hatin' !

[gaffyh]

You'd think that PGR would move over to PS3 if this was a problem, but it won't because it will have too much competition from GT, it already has competition from Forza, but GT looks much better than both of them and moving over would pretty much be suicide. I guess this story kinda proves a larger capacity format was required, a little bit.

This story is a big flame bait.

[GRRiMREEAPeR]

speaking of racist sns urs needs to be changed too...

[hazeblaze]

You're so dumb. If that was the case than compressed files on cd-roms should have been good enough instead of advancing forward to dvd's.

And obviously compression techniques ARE NOT good enough for them to get this data onto the dvd9's or else they would not have made any comment on it.

Devs are greater than you. And the majority have already commented on the superiority of blu ray vs. dvd's as a format.

[rareairtone]

Last generation i purchased a ps2 before my xbox. in fact i fell in love with the xbox because of the better graphics and i liked the controller. i purchased the 360 because i wanted a next gen console fast and i couldn afford the ps3 (i do have the premium 360). now i dont think its unfortunate that i purchased it me encanta the 360 i really thot it was dumb that there was an option for a 360 purchase without a hard drive. just like microsoft misperceived (if that's a real word) that this generation was fine with dvd software for video games they miscalculated making a 360 available without a hard drive.

if there wont be a firmware update for the 360 (im a noob when it comes to computers i dont know if we can download something to allow a higher storage dvd to be able to be read) it seems this generation the first console i bought does not have the capability of producing the better graphics of the 3 at this time.

i wonder how microsoft is going to feel about their gameplan next year when by that time developers are going to be more used to making ps3 games? i remember when multiplatform games of last generation came out--the ps2 version was inferior to the xbox version in terms of graphics. what will make the developers change this generation? sympathy? because the 360 is easier to develope for? i love the 360 in fact, but microsoft put their heads in the gallows with a slowly descending guillotine when they released the 360 almost 2 years ago...

[Covenant]

Common sense, reason, intelligent discourse...

...and naked women. Fanboys wouldn't know what to do with any of those.

[Staircase]

"By the way, MGS 4 is no longer PS3 exclusive, it is reported in the Official Xbox magazine August issue on page 88 that the port is being done by a different team of course since the one guy quit, but the xbox 360 version will come out a few months after the PS3 :)
LOL at dui, you better change your post before people ralize how retarded you are, gran tourismo was on 2 discs anyone who played it knows, 1 for sim mode and 1 for multiplayer. Now who is retarded?
And anyone who read August xbox mag knows MGS is coming to xbox, owned again. You will have me laughing to myself all day."

Metal Gear Solid 4 is currently exclusive, and I am confident it will stay exclusive. They have made numerous articles on why it will stay exclusive, and all you are going on right now is a extremely small section of a magazine that is based on rumors alone. If it does go multiplatform, good for it. More people will get to experience the greatness of the Metal Gear Saga. However, you have no right to call someone a "Retard" because you think it will be on the 360.

"since the one guy quit"

. . .

[TriggerHippie]

And people say we don't need a next gen storage format...

[Marceles]

SNES catridges *cough* FF7 can't fit *cough cough* move it to Playstation *cough sneeze*, sorry...getting a little cold in here

[Syko]

In fairness FF7 didn't fit on Playstation either. It was a 3 disc game. Still a classic.

I wonder if it would have been on 1 disc if it would have been even better???

Edit @2.4
While I see where your logic is going, You are really nitpicking and grasping at straws now. It in no way would have changed FF7 if it was on one disc or on 10 discs. While it is nice to have it on one disc it is not the end of the world to have two or more discs. Next gen it could be "necessary", just not now. While I do think it will be "used" this gen, I think "necessary" is a little to strong of a word IMO.

[Marceles]

I'm just thinking...what if they had multi-cartridge games lol? But also cartridges couldn't stream FMVs.

[strongbad1441]

while it was indeed a great game, ff7 would have been better on a single disc. with multiple discs, there is a higher chance of getting one scratched. and a single disc out of a set of three will not be as easy to replace as a disc that contains the whole game.

[SlappyMcTaint]

Denial is a beyotch ain't it?! The "not enough space on DVD9" stories are starting to come up more often now and all you can do is bring up old PS2 games. NICE! Perfect little xbots, distracting from the actual topic at hand by bashing the PSx any and every way you can.

How many discs is Blue Dragon on again?

[BubblesDAVERAGE]

They will be recanting this statement in a few seconds...you know MS got there fanboys believing that more space isn't needed...the question is IF there is a chance for more space why not use it?

Just more space who cares if its blu ray or HdDvd either way Ms would have been better off with either..or a standard HDD

[360Sheep]

So it begins......

oh wait nevermind, already happened with Blue Dragon

[tehcellownu]

Blue Dragon doesnt even look that great either and takes up 3 disks!! lol. The demos sucks big time i didnt enjoy it at all..

[gEnKiE]

3 disks???? holy crap! haha

[Nemesis]

posted in wrong place.

[marionz]

people get so worked up over nothing, i like the fact blue dragon is on three discs, kinda makes it feel more epic
at the end of the day i dont care how many discs the game is on, its not like the old amiga 500 days where you had to insert disc one load....five minuites later insert disc three....five minuits later insert disc two....
i mean have you seen the graphics in pgr4! man they are awesome the rain and weather effects on the car are the best ive ever seen!
if you think back to the ps1 days i kinda wonder how that console ever did so well though, the graphics where awefull, i didnt care bout the fact the games were usually on more then one disc but the graphics where nasty
thats why i played zelda etc on cart, point is there is all sorts of storage media out there so whats the point of complaining about it if your getting good games?

[D_U_I]

Well s*it happens, live with it.

[Itachi]

i kinda feel sorry for them when you here kojima asking for 50gb blu-ray in mid 2006

they must been under a lot of pressure to fit content in the disc other wise it could damage the series just like forza2 if no improvments have been made

[AllroundGamer]

can you hear the fanboys crying? "the developer is lying again!!!" :D

[Eidolon]

:P

[ThaGeNeCySt]

LMAO right.

[vidoardes]

Unfortunatly this article will quickly turn into a fanboy flame war, but it does bring up a valid point. This game is only a 2nd/3rd Gen game for the 360, and it's not the first to show problems due to disc space. Gears Of Wars is a great game, and arguably still one of the best looking games currently availible, but it has always been crtisised for beign too short. Considering this console is still fairly new (relativly speaking) is this something we are gonna see more and more of? Are these problems gonna be fixed by 'expensive downloadable extras'? Let's hope not, for the sakes of anyone who owns a 360.

EDIT: Haha, I knew it, 2 disagrees and no explanation as to why. Have some balls and actually say what part you disagree with, don't just hit it because you precious console is under fire. Grow up for f**ks sakes.

[Azures]

Gears of War is impressive but its also a cloak and dagger game. While it looks and plays well, the game was no doubt limited due to the 360; Either it be from the available rendering of many character models or lack of space to extend single or multi player content.

[i Shank u]

yea Gears is so limited on 360. that must be why when it is re-released on PC, it will be released on 'gasp' a DVD 9! with imrpved grphx, more levels, a level editor, etc. and its NOT ON BLU RAY you fantard

i will say that from the get go, PS1 games with length had to be on multiple discs, and people still bought it up, so why does this matter to you all?

[Azures]

Probably 2 DVD9s :)

[DJ]

Standard DVDs (used for PC games, movies, etc) hold the full 8.5 GB. Besides, Gears is actually a little under 7GB. That’s enough space for extra levels, a level editor, and higher-res textures/overhauled textures.

*In case you’re wondering, the last 600MB of Xbox 360 DVDs are blocked off due to security reasons (300MB per layer). Xbox and PS2 DVDs did the same thing.

[The Wood]

the fact the pc version had a hdd to write to

[ud]

we all saw this coming ;)

[RadientFlux]

oh well every system has it's limitations, one of jobs of the developer is to deal with it

[Azures]

Next they'll be telling us they need a hdd to get things done...oh wait...

lol.

[supaet]

it's half the price of the ps3 at 249.99

of course it's limiting...why does the ps3 share the same multiplatform games with the 360 then?

that means the limitation doesn't matter....

[Imalwaysright]

Hmm maybe because they are built around 360 hardware??

[BIadestarX]

If it does not fit in 1 disk... then make it in 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,....
Do I care? Nope... I didnt care when Final Fantasy 7 came in 4 Disks, or Metal Gear. I have to many games to worry about having to change the 1st disk after 20-30 hours of gameplay, since I usually can't play a single game more than 2 hours before I switch to another...

I never understood the big deal about this.... mmm... fanboys making a big deal about this... don't have a problem, getting up to switch their game multiple times... yet they have a problem having a game in multiple disks.

Ofcourse having extra space is a great thing... but that does not guarantee the game will be good. But I would see the big deal.. only if all games would come in a single blu-ray disk and I don't have to switch games ever.... mmm.. sounds like a problem only digital distribution and a big harddrive can fix.

EDIT
@LostProphet - You gave some very valid/great points... "You can't switch discs halfway through an arcade racer, or you'd never be able to play all cars on all tracks"... I can't argue against that... I guess this is an example of a technical limitation developers will have to work on. Also, let's not forget that they can simply make ship this content on another disk and call it, "Dawn Racer". Developers don't have to ask to "Insert Disk ?" while people are turning around the corner. They can partition the game in a logical way.
Usually this kind of technical limitations push developers to find ways to figure out alternatives... (Ofcourse there's always the posibility that they will cut content...).
It's understandable why this game is so big.. it has many features non-existant even on PS3 games like motorstorm that have the extra space.... like dynamic weather...

[Azures]

Some games can't go multiple discs without being insanely annoying, an arcade racing sim is probably one of them.

[Vertius]

This brings up a point that's rarely mentioned. If there is difficulty fitting the data on one DVD, they may simply omit the data completely, as seen here with the day-night textures. That means future games may lose features because of the developer's unwillingness to make it on many discs, and, as said above, switching discs in some genres is abhorrent.

[Nigther]

Final Fantasy VII comes on 3 CDs.

Update: What kind of idiot would disagree with this?

[vidoardes]

This is exactally what worries me aswell. I for one couldn't care about switching discs halfway through a game, Final Fantasy and Metal Gear are by far my two favorite PS1 games. The problem is it doesn't work for some genres.

You can't switch discs halfway through an arcade racer, or you'd never be able to play all cars on all tracks, or one disc would have all the tuning options. It just wouldn't work.

Fighting games are the same, you couldn't have some fighters on one disc and some on another, or some venues on one and some on another.

In fact, the only games that would work with multiple discs is a game with a linear story i.e an RPG. In reality, developers may have to start cutting corners, such as removing textures for night races perhaps?

[XxZxX]

Options that I can thing of
#1 well do what PC did all the time, install in Hard disk. but the problem is most user XBOX 360 hard disk is 20gb. Install a few of them, and u need to buy the 120gb version, it will also force core users to buy a hard disk.

#2 put a special version on XBOX 360 HD-DVD. HD-DVD drive is on usb. It will be slow loading if used.

[Premonition]

Its really sad when someone has to find anything to stand up for DVD-9, I mean really what part of technology dont you understand, the fact that we need to upgrade almost every part? Cause no one in their right minds would want to change out up 5-8 discs, unless they are in the biggest denile in the world. You will defend this system till you get hit in the head with one right? I had a buddy just like you who would get his xbox360 repaired about 50 times no matter what, even if it burnt down his house he would purchase another one in a heart beat, its kinda like when a female just keeps taking it from the guy till she dies, she keeps saying "oh hes going to change hes going to change" and everyone knows how that ends. You really need to change your ways and stop making stupid statements to defend your system.

[nurayi]

sure, there were some stellar multiple disk games on PS1. but do we really want to take a step backwards two generations? last generation multi-disk gaming was being phased out. it should be history by now.

"I never understood the big deal about this.... mmm... fanboys making a big deal about this... don't have a problem, getting up to switch their game multiple times... yet they have a problem having a game in multiple disks."

name-calling aside.. there is the simple reason is that when you have to keep track of 2-4 disks then sometimes you may end up with a lost disk or an unplayable one. I personally haven't had much problem with this (though I did lose the last disk for doom3 on my PC...still don't know how that happened) there are a lot of people who aren't ultra-careful with their disks. I could count 5 people I know that just put disks in whatever case is handy when they are switching games, and don't keep their stuff organized. There are plenty of reasons why multi-disk gaming is not a good thing, and I think that they are rather easy to decipher.

[Lumbo]

" #2 put a special version on XBOX 360 HD-DVD. HD-DVD drive is on usb. It will be slow loading if used."

The 12x DVD drive of the 360 can read SINGLE layer disks at 15MB/sec on the outer rim of the medium, DUAL layer medias are read with 9MB/sec maximun. USB 2.0 as used by the xbox360 can transfer 400mbit/sec thats ~40MB/sec.

Could you elaborate how using an USB drive would slow down the loading times of the DVD drive when USB is faster than the build in drive ?

The whole point is mood though, cause as with the disastrous decision to offer 360 SKUs without a harddrive, using the external HD-DVD drive is also not an option, cause it is not standard over the whole system.

I still fail to understand why MS offered the core without a minimal HDD. I mean MS where the ones to enter HDDs to consoles with the xBox1, and every xbox1 had at least a minimal HDD. It was even praised for having an HDD in every SKU. It doesn't even make sense from a pricepoint, cause the minimal 20gig HDDs couldn't have cost more than $15 on the gross market in 2005 when 100gig+ drives where the normal size sold at $60.

On the multidisk issue: yes, the only genres that may use multidisks are Adventures and rpgs. GTA, NFS and sportsgames would suxx horribly with constant disk changing. But whats done is done. Devs will most likely rather cut out content to fit everything on a single disk, than taking the hassle to synch it to two.

[knoxin]

i see what everu one say but new compression techs will solve this very quickly, plus ms wants this game out this year, it seems like there not putting it in for sales sakes,

if you look on the xbox.com forums you can see there is a huge thread about this and the simple answer is size does not matter,

50 gig sony disc haha yeah but he asked for that becuase he doubling or triple the game data over because blu ray is 2Xspeed its to stop long long loads,

[CrazzyMan]

1x blu ray read speed= 36 mbps
the playstation has 2x blu ray read speed so: 72mbps

1x dvd read speed= 11,08 mbps
the xbox has a read speed of 16x for sinle layered dvds and 8x for double layered dvds, so:
single layered=16x11,08= 117,28 mbps

double layered=8x11,08= 88,64mbps

[Bleyd]

Aren't most 360 games double layered and doesn't that mean that the 360 really only reads most of its games at 8x?

[CrazzyMan]

atleast ps3 don`t have problems with storage... :)

the club is multiplatform game.. =] it would be nice to see a PGR version without limits of storage. =]

p.s. so.. 1 dvd is still enough for nextgen gaming? =))

[Rageanitus]

2+ discs per a game.... nothing really wrong with that
But it will get annoying swtiching discs..

Multi discs only really work for pc gaming, because you can install everything on a large hard disc... while the xbox 360 does come mandatory with an HD.. This is a restriction that MS should have seen.

I mean ms has been in the pc gaming industry for a long time they should have screen this coming.

[Jeremy Gerard]

So put it on two disks, whats the big deal, i would rather have fast load times and a 200 dollar cheaper console price than a HDDVD, or bluray drive. I dont mind changing a disk every 50 hours, not nearly as much as I mind waiting on slow load times, every few minutes.

[Lumbo]

Nice how you fail to understand the core issue.
In a racing game its not every 50 hours, its more like every other track.

And when you try to be smart and try to make the 360 DVD9 drive look faster than the slow PS3 2x bluray drive, you should take in all facts before making yourself look like a moron...

360 DVD9 drive 12x max = 15MB/sec transfer rate for SINGLE layer dvd's = 4,5 gig disks.
DUAL layer 9GB disks are read at 8x = 10MB/sec speed. Additionally the max speed is only reached in the outermost area of the disk, Meaning that the real transfer speed of a dual layer xBox360 DVDROM is from 5x (6,5MB/s) in the inner area to 8x (10MB/s) in the outer area. Average readspeed is 8MB/sec due to the CAV tech used.

Readspeed over the whole 50 GB of the Bluray 2x drive in the PS3 is 9MB/sec, as BluRay drives use CRV so the readspeed is the same regardless where on the medium the data is.

result: on the now normal dual layer dvdroms for the 360 there is only a minimal advantage of speed compared to the Bluray drive of the ps3, and thats on initial load of the game. Level loading will most times be even a little slower on the 360 cause of the lower average transfer speed. Single layer 360 dvdroms on the other hand are always faster than the PS3 bluray drive, up to 50% faster on initial load even. But single layer games are getting less and less nowadays.

[knoxin]

in reaply to 10.1 gears was rushed and its only 6gig with no compression i think as well

[Bleyd]

that you think that Gears of War doesn't use any compression at all to fit into 6GB of space?

[FordGTGuy]

Seeing as we have already seen that when you make it into heavy clouds that it makes it almost dark as night anyway.

With all the other stuff they are putting in this game I could really give a crap about not having night.

[tehcellownu]

Thats why i hate multiplatform games the 360 is always limiting what the ps3 can really do..i bet you this wont be the last time we goin to hear about dvd size is limiting next gen games....

[Jeremy Gerard]

this isn't a multi platform game for one you idiot, and we could say the same about the PS3s @ss backwards cell chip, it being so hard to develope for is holding back what developers can do as well because they know they may not be able to do the same for the PS3 version of a given game.

@ Bleyd Two disks! there, I just surmounted it

[Bleyd]

that the Cell processor being a pain to develop for is a surmountable problem and will soon be less of a problem and more of a benefit. The limited amount of space on a DVD is not so surmountable and can never be considered a benefit to have less space.

@Jeremy, no you just made the problem bigger because now you have to have the game engine and all base content on both disks and now the gamers have to change disks to play different content. You just made the problem 2x as big.

[Blabbermouth]

Developers will learn to use the cell chip over time,they can only get better and better with this new technology. While with just having DVD9 your stuck with same storage that was pretty much used too its limits last generation. The only way Dev's can go, is add more dvd's if they expect the newer games to be better than current ones.

[natsfan7]

But couldn't the same be said for developers learning how to better use the compression technology???? Just a thought...

PS- Sorry for the bad spelling...

[ChibiSelz]

lol no blueray needed? huh cool
xbox cant be a nextgen console more then 1 cd is last last gen have fun with your multidisks xbotx but when one scratches guess what the other cd is no use lmao

Edit=Fordgtguy does it look like i give a furk about bubbles lol im not a little child is having one bubble gona stop me from posting ?