"The game's developer, Santa Monica's Sony-owned Naughty Dog, now hopes that the studio can help both internal and external PlayStation 3 developers reach the same kind of technical prowess on the uniquely challenging hardware."
"uniquely challenging hardware" Hilarious. A perfect example of why many gamers and the gaming media is still having trouble dealing with the massive graphical power advantage the PSs3 has this gen. A graphical power advantage larger than ever before in the history of the console market. Back before the Xbox where Microsoft tried to throw a bunch of expensive desktop x86 PC parts into a big ugly black box and pass it off as a console, PC game developers and console developers stuck with their own areas of expertise. But as soon as Microsoft's PC in a console box arrived, suddenly every clown who kinda knows some stuff about home computers and home computer graphics cards thinks they are an expert on console hardware and console graphics engines. The PS3 is in essence the exact same hardware design as the 140 million selling PS2. In other words, the console hardware that console developers have the most experience with and have spent the last decade working with. A PS2 engine and PS3 engine are written in almost identical ways: On the PS2 execution starts up on the EE. On the PS3 execution starts up on the PPU. Tasks are spawned off to the VUs on the PS2 - lighting, vertex transforms, animation, etc. On the PS3 those tasks are spawned off to the SPUs. Main game code runs on the EE on the PS2 while the VUs work in parallel. On the PS3 it is the PPU and SPUs that are running parallel. When the VUs have computed enough data to render, that data is fired off to the GS. The same goes for the PS3, but from the SPUs to the RSX. The split memory architecture makes it so the EE half of the PS2 can work full speed while the GS works on its own data. The same goes for the PS3, the Cell side can work full speed on its data while the RSX is firing away without having to fight over the same memory/bus In a good PS2 engine the EE, VUs, and GS are all cranking away in parallel. In a good PS3 engine the PPU, SPUs, and RSX are all cranking away in parallel. There isn't a single console developer who sat around wondering how to write a PS3 graphics engine. They were writing PS3 graphics engines in their minds all the way back in the PS2 days when we would imagine what a next gen PS2 would look like. Not surprising since both machine were designed by master of console hardware design, Kutagari.
So very pleased they are sharing the wealth of information they have. The Dogs are on top of the heap and wanting to bring everybody up there with them. True class acts. I'm looking at you Sucker Punch...LOVE inFamous and cannot wait to see a smooth 60 fps like near the docks in your next game, less jaggies, and EVEN better graphics :) You guys still have one of the best hero games imo ever made.
they talk to CELLIUS so I finally get my muther$%&[email protected]*'n Ace Combat! >_<
Beyond3d really is to console graphics hardware and engines as vgchartz is to sales numbers. Both are effectively nothing more than sites peddling fake information to a crowd of people who desperately want to have someone tell them the lies they want to believe.
The devs under their wing seem interested in sharing the love when they figure out something the others had not tried. Almost a requirement if you are going to be a sony subsidiary. You must share your programming tricks with others in the family so everyone can benefit. Not only that but a few will even go so far as to help the third parties as well. 360 will never have that close knit feeling of developer comraderie. Mainly because there just isnt enough 1st/2nd party devs pushing the tech beyond current spec. I have seen amazing things done with older systems not even thought possible when looking at the start of their generation. Fast forward to the end and it is the talent of the programmers and developers that go beyond the limitations of the hardware inside. Look at the games that started off the genesis and compare them with the ones at its end. Ranger X and gunstar heroes are two of my favorite games and they came out towards the end of the system life. Same tech just a different approach to get the results. Looking at some of the ps2 games when it launched and compare them to the ones within the last couple of years. A shame that there arent any devs willing to try this same approach in taking risks and sharing ideas like ND and Insomniac does on the ps3 but for the 360. 360 is a great machine but lacks the real dedicated talent to show its true graphical ability. If I could make an analogy. Those who have seen the original fast and furious may understand (although a bit hokey). 360 is like the paul walker character. PS3 is the vin diesel. The first race where paul walker hit the nitrous and was blazing past the others and was ahead. Then vin diesel hits his nitrous and pulls away for the win. That showed the young driver has potential but is sloppy in execution (like the 360) and the experienced driver (ps3) just needed the right moment to do his thing and win every time. Like I said this analogy is hokey but it is what came to mind. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning. Sony is winning in my book. 360 needs more experience but there is potential. Imagine if the talented devs in charge of the PS3 AAA games were to throw a bone to the 360. Oh what greatness they could create. Now bring on the disagrees
It's just amazing how ND could pull of such great games. UC1 looked great and UC2 STILL managed to blow it away. At this rate,it's hard to imagine just how good UC3 will look
Just imagine all of the amazing games that will be coming to the PS3 thanks to Naughty Dog. Developers will have more time to think about gameplay rather than graphics cause the amazing engine is already there! ND = Development Gods.
Naughty Dog always Pushing the Boundaries
to make a game run on this system. Very impressive!
"We choose to go to the moon... we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."
Very fitting indeed. JFK knew what he was talking about.
JFK was the Boss!, Awesome Quote by him.
So let me get this straight Nd pretty much redid their whole engine has a single-player of 12+ hours has coop and versus multi-player in a whole new way. Infinity ward added a 5 hour campaign, maps and perks and the spec ops mode. Well we can all see who went way beyond in the 2 years they had and the other slacked on the previous success. How do these games even have the same scores...
it is dead in my eyes. off-topic anyone watched the movie '2012' yet? I lol-ed so hard when Tenzin showed up ^^
Well, Not trying to defend the 360 or Microsoft(since I Totally Dislike them in the first place), but the reason why is because the PS3 is far ahead of the 360 in Tech, You cannot compare a 360 Exclusive to a PS3 Exclusive this just will not work because nobody knows how that said exclusive will look on the other console, so Instead they compare Exclusives Internally to other games that are on the same console, So for Example, Halo got such a good score because compared to other 360 Games it really is Impressive. Uncharted 2 has such a Great score compared to other Games on the PS3, and if you Include PS3 Fans(Hard to Please) and other Great games on the PS3 then you have a VERY Tough crowd, while the 360 games and fans are more Tolerate and easy to please. Hope this makes since. But there is also a Thin line here, Multi plat games for example. GTA4 has High ratings on both consoles, this is for the 360's Benifits and not the PS3's, surely GTA4 should not be on UC2's Level. So there will be some bending when it comes to multiplats.
sometimes those guys are straight up simpletons. only a few of them actually know how to program for the ps3. the majority of them only knw the pc"way" to design a game.
Unless I missed someone, they really have no one who actually knows anything about the PS3. The breakdown seems to be about: 75 percent PC gamers 24 percent PC programmers and they have one bitter and angry Xbox fan, Lao Yosh, who builds models for Blizzard or some company who works for Blizzard. Loves to use as many big graphics terms as possible in his constant spewing of anti-Sony/PS3 garbage. and one junior programmer who is experience pretty much entirely with PCs and directX who works at some multiplatform company. Not nearly as angry as Lao Yosh, but just a clueless. Other than those two sad people, there aren't any real console developers who post there.
yesterday and it was amazing! really!
Excellent, positive, game-related news. -End statement
In the end it's all about disk space, and the fact MS limits all developers to 1 or 2 disks, with royalties to MS increasing with each additional disk. Nobody (outside PS3 exclusives) is going to be able to match the level of detail ND displayed, unless they're making a 3 hour game. Microsoft and 3rd parties are going to try to emphasize 60fps because they simply can't fit the textures on a disk like a PS3 exclusive can, so they'll say engine frame rate is superior to detail. Gears 2 they cut out a level, they later sold as DLC, despite the game being criticized as short(not to mention the free dlc maps that should have been included as well) Halo ODST, short campaign again, even though multiplayer was on another disk. Couldn't fit forza 3 on one disk again. And go look at MW1/MW2's 'lengthy' campaign mode. It's a cycle that goes on and on. Aside from that a good looking game is about animations and the number crunching to do adaptive animation(Killzone 2 exhibits a ragdoll/mocap blend no one's matched before, UC2 has an advanced method of blending complex animations together on the fly)
Imagine Killzone 2 mo cap animation with physics blending with Uncharted 2's procedural animations. That would be freaking awesome.
Wow. As much as I love the PS3, I can't stand the massive circle jerk being conducted above my post. You guys cannot possibly think that PC developers are just a bunch of idiots, right? I mean, I just have to put in one name and your entire argument is weakened. John Carmack. The guy is not an idiot. RAGE @ 60fps on consoles, and look at how great the visuals are in that game. The guy is an expert. And as great as the PS3 is, you guys have to admit you are talking purely in terms of consoles and are doing a piss poor job at it as well, because you're bringing up PS2 and Xbox (Flatulent Ghost) to make your comparisons. Why not talk about how much more powerful PS3 is than 360? Like 20 percent? Maybe? The PS3's SPUs are not very different from regular PC cores. They're just more specialized for media capabilities like video streaming. They're ideal for video games in that sense. The general purpose cores do a lot of things well, but not any specific thing very well. PCs from 2005 totally destroy the 360 and PS3 hardware. This is not to say that Uncharted 2 and Killzone 2 are mediocre. This is just to say that PC developers who look at games like UC2 and KZ2 don't really get what the big fuss is about. So if you PS3 fanboys are in disbelief that someone like Gabe Newell or Chet Falizek or John Carmack doesn't really drool over console hardware, then tough luck to you. You're like a bunch of kids arguing over who as the best bicycle. The PC developers are tuning Ducatis and Supercars. The only thing that interests them about consoles is which one has the largest marketshare and which console will be easier to port their games to so they can make some easy money. That's why the PS3 gets shafted a lot. It's not because the PC developers are stupid and don't know how powerful the PS3 is. They're just more interested in their communities on PC.
"PCs from 2005 totally destroy the 360 and PS3 hardware." My god... You can't possible that clueless about the Broadband Engine in the PS3.
Last I heard. Carmack is still struggling to get 60HZ on the PS3.
LOL! An actual John Carmack fanboy? That is so sad...
Really? I know the Cell concept was actually created by IBM in the 1980s but was later replaced by general purpose processors. I know that the PS3 was indeed outdated technology the day it launched, when compared to a PC that has more RAM, more processing power, and a GPU that makes RSX look like it came out of a scientific calculator. The 360 is slightly worse hardware, but you can attribute that to the headstart for all I care. The great thing about Naughty Dog is what they are able to accomplish despite the limitations of the console that they are working on. If you double back and say that the PS3 is extremely powerful, then what has Naughty Dog accomplished? How many people praise Crytek for Crysis? How many people says that Crytek are the best developers ever? Nobody. Because Crytek set the benchmark for hardware so high that their game wouldn't run properly on even high-end gaming machines. What I love about Naughty Dog is their ability to make a beautiful game on a console, and totally leave me in disbelief. IT'S NOT THE HARDWARE, IT'S THE TALENT BEHIND IT.
who are these pc developers that dont see the big fuss about u2 and kz2? are they the same ones releasing games with okay graphics on 360? its not hard being a pc developer when youre relying on games to scale with people's graphics cards, l4d looked okay on 360 in that it was nothing special and no, cell was a concept by ken kutaragi who took it to ibm engineers in japan and later toshiba, SPUs (which make the cell special) are definitely kutaragi's concept
It's funny that you bring up Rage because that game is on 2 full disks, they wanted to do 3, but MS wouldn't let them - so they had to cut out a whole section they had planned for the game.. We'll see on the length of Rage, and how much of it is just repetition. Rage is the perfect example of how MS's policies ruined something for everyone, ID were actually the ones that spoke out about MS's disk policy.
No, Sony and IBM were in a partnership since 2000 for producing hardware. Sony approached IBM about a powerful processor and IBM resurrected the SPU concept that it had made in the 1980s. Even then, IBM knew that the digital signal processors were media-oriented, and that's why they used it for the Cell Broadband Engine. Kutaragi didn't think it all up in his head. Nevertheless, my OP was about the hardware in comparison with current PC hardware, and in that contest, the Cell fails. It's certainly more efficient proportionally, because of the SPU's inclination to media, which is why the Cell streams some videos faster than the Corei7. But overall, the Cell hardware doesn't have a future in PCs. In the future, Microsoft may use highly specialized cores in its consoles rather that GPCPUs, as it is using now. @Rob6021. Yes, it is unfortunate that Microsoft's retarded policies got in the way. However, this isn't about the optical media disc choice made by MS. This is about how Id is able to develop a game on both the Xbox 360 and the PS3, that looks as good as it does, and make it run at 60fps. Keep in mind that Id can easily upgrade the graphics of that game, which are already phenomenal, even further by cutting the framerate to 30. Carmack knows how to utilize the hardware very well, and considering the game is open-world, you have to admit that's a pretty impressive feat. Microsoft's hardware problems boil down to their lack of foresight when it came to storage capacity, their decision to not include a harddrive in every unit, and their decision to forgo testing of their console which resulted in high failure rates. Other than that, I would not have predicted MS to bring back a concept from the 1980s to put in their hardware. If you recall, when Sony first announced the Cell's specs, Microsoft made fun of them for incorporating nothing more than DSPs. Now, Sony is laughing.
cells not designed for future PCs, no one cares if it can run windows 7 or osx cell does exactly what it was designed to do, handle the processing of ibm's super computers, handle the ps3's processing and rendering, and handle the processing of toshiba's upcoming TVs on top of that the cell is designed to be scalable for the future which is why you see [email protected] along with people running ray-tracing on multiple ps3s/cell-servers carmacks an expert? yeah if youre talking PCs and pc style development (360) which is why they hired john olick (former ND) to explain the CellBE to them
carmack "is not a console expert." he has not made one game for consoles.every game from quake to doom,etc,was ported over by someone else other than him. he did not code for ps1,ps2...pretty much any console all the way back to the beginning.but we are to trust his word when it comes to ps3 and consoles. carmack is an expert when he's given a bigger canvass on pc.but it's always a graphics card that has one powerful main graphics chip.but this is his first time that he has run into a group of chips that doesn't rely on the main chip for graphics.if you are making a game for ps3,you need to spread the code out to all the chips. but it doesn't end there,the cell itself is cable by itself to create graphics like the rsx.or add to rsx to make even better graphics.it's why third party developers can't compete with sony developers.they make their games on the main chip and totally exclude the spes.the results are games that don't hold a candle to sony exclusives. are any third party games better looking than sony's best exclusives?no.are third party games reaching 16-32-40-60-256 gamers online at the same time with awsome graphics still being run?no. SO WHY IS THAT? because sony knows something they don't.they have programmed so long for pc,they don't know or are too slow to figure out the most basic thing: "MORE FOOTBALL PLAYERS CAN TURN THAT VOLKSWAGON OVER EASIER THAN ONE STRONG FOOTBALL PLAYER." meaning:if you spread out the task to everyone involved,the work gets easier.and sony has said this over and over.but guys like carmack are too stupid to listen.so you see them struggle on such a basic principle.which is why rage is struggling on ps3.because he is not listening and unfamiliar with ps3 coding. which makes him no expert on ps3.or his game would already be at the level or beyond uncharted 2 from naughty dog.you can be smart on something but be stupid at something else.and carmack is a good example of this. you picked the wrong guy to call an expert on consoles there kav.
I didn't call him an expert for consoles. I called him an expert. But to clarify, Carmack is an enthusiast in all forms of tech. He's not a slum developer looking to make a quick buck. The man is pioneer. And your point about him not personally involving himself with consoles proves my point. Like I said before, and I'll repeat the analogy, Carmack is tuning Ducatis while console-only developers like Naughty are working on bicycles. And yeah, nice job downplaying him. Go look at Rage. Maybe it's hard to accept that a third party developer can do so much with a multiplatform game, but there it is. Running in all its glory at 60 frames per second, and even Carmack said that the PS3 has a higher theoretical performance than 360, but that isn't enough for the fanboys. They somehow thing Carmack has ties with Microsoft, and they don't even know that he's a major proponent of open-sourced software, and usually shares his games' codes for free.
ducatis huh? way to put carmack on some pc-elite pedastal, thaat must be why he took over the graphics development of wolfenstein on the iphone all youre saying is that carmack-the-god is so great because he writes high end graphics codes for high end grphics cards - how many console gamers care about running doom 4 at 1900x1200 with 8x AA, id tech 5 will most likely get trumped by cryengine3 on consoles
Yeah, and how many PC developers care about 720p with ZERO anti-alaising, running at 30fps? Bicycles vs. motorcycles. They both get you from point A to point B. They both have 2 wheels and handle bars. But one of them just does things a lot cooler than the other one. It is because Carmack writes code for high-end applications that I trust he can see the peak of console hardware. He knows the components and the potential. And it's not just him. Crytek is really showing off what it can do with consoles as well. The PS3 and the 360 both have amazing potential, but because of a few extra spectacular releases on the PS3, the fanboys have seeped out of the woodwork to proclaim that the PS3 is at least twice as powerful as the 360, when the two are generally comparable. I got a PS3, and the games are great-looking, but they're not so far off from 360 games. Cryengine 3 on the 360 confirmed to me that Gears of War 2 was not the max of the 360, but the argument never ends.
is that carmack can only excel at hardware that is already powerful.he may even help it to be powerful.but console developers have made games on hardware they were working on and fooled gamers into thinking it's more powerful than it is.they learned "tricks." donkey kong country is a perfect example on super nintendo.gunstar heroes on genesis is a perfect example.games that shouldn't have looked and played like they did.but they did. it's like epic games.they trick you with shaders and bump mapping and make your eyes believe there are more polygons than there really are.they also take high res textures and put then on low build polygons.another trick. but it doesn't change the fact that carmack could learn a trick or two on making console games.every dev could learn a trick or two from another.carmack doesn't seem willing.it's either "ducatis" as you say or nothing at all.but in your opinion,he wouldn't take a low end motorcycle and tweak it to run faster than it should theoretically. trick the bike,overclock the processor,etc.it's called tricks.naughty dog has learned tricks that make their games look better than most devs.and i doubt ps3 is that hard to program for.i just think devs get comfortable in making games how they always made them. and that's why they are behind the sony exclusive curve.
dude how many different people have told you you're talking out of your ass yet you refuse to quit....lol
PS3 Cell Tech is amazing. The more devs play with it, the better things become. Can't wait to see what U3/KZ3 look like.
"IT'S NOT THE HARDWARE, IT'S THE TALENT BEHIND IT" With all do respect, ITS THE HARDWARE MAKES THAT POSSIBLE, and the PS3 has double the power over the 360 hardware maybe more than double powerful than a 360, even ND don't no if they reach the hardware limit from the PS3.
dont be daft.
you already missing out on AAA games and this gen will end up being the same as last gen. meansing you would be crazy to not have owned a ps3 just like you would have been crazy to not have owned a ps2 last gen. that is the amount of games you gonna be missing out on.
for giving competition with UC2. This will only help to motivate developers (hopefully most of em will) to push more effort into delivering big games. Just wish developers would swallow their pride and do their jobs--advance with technology at the same pace.
Naughty Dog = Class Act, Developers of the Year Uncharted 2 = GOTY And now it seems that their success is going to help future games. Win.
"I'm sure people have seen reports in the past where we said we were using '100 percent of the PlayStation 3,' and we're not lying or exaggerating when we say that." But Druckmann said the studio doesn't intend to imply that the console is maxed out. "What we mean is that none of the SPUs are ever idle. They're working 100 percent of the time. In the first Uncharted, they were idle about 70 percent of the time, because we were just on the GPU." Finally that has been said. I tried to explain that to so many people when the original comment came out.
whilst I have not played UC2 I have played Killzone 2 and Modern Warfare 2 and I think the graphics in Modern Warfare 2 are more impressive than Killzone 2, feel free not to agree but it is my opinion that Modern Warfare 2 has proven that the 360 can infact match the PS3 in graphics, also the 360 is more consistent in it's quality, seriously Modern Warfare is a looker, some of the particle effects are outstanding and no amount of brainwashing is going to convince me that Killzone 2 looks better.
Give a rest. You're just embarrassing yourself.
Yeah, seriously, Modern Warfare 2 is nowhere near Killzone 2 level. Modern Warfare 2 proves Infinity Ward can make a sub-HD game look the same on two consoles and push neither.
People aren't trying to 'brainwash' you into thinking anything. But your argument later that people shouldn't tell you what you can / can't / should / shouldn't see with your own eyes goes both ways. You can argue until your blue in the face that MW2 is astounding graphically and that's fine for you. But the fast majority of people are going to disagree (including me, I think UC2 trumps them all), because that's what THEY see with THEIR own eyes.
what I can and cannot see with my own eyes, you think Killzone 2 looks better than anything, I played it and got bored very quick, Modern Warfare does in my opinion not yours look better than Killzone 2, as far as embarrassing myself well you only do that if you are not true to yourself.
like I said I have played KZ2, have you played Modern Warfare 2? because if you have you would know how good it looks, if you are going by internet videos and not actually playing it yourself then forget it.
And if you seriously believe that MW2 looks (or plays, for that matter) better than Killzone 2 then I suggest a visit to the opticians, or maybe even the psychiatrist, may be in order.
I think tudors has won the crown for most delusional fan on the internet. I expected people to be drinking some major MW2 man juice, but this is beyond all belief. Even web site that praise the game all day haven't had the gall to make such an asinine statement.
how the [email protected] MW2 looks better then kilzone 2? are u smoking something because MW2 dosent look that good in my opinion.
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