Sony's PS3 gamble: should the optical revolution have been optional?

The 2005-2006 edition of the "console wars" is a little different from previous installments in the battle to be in everyone's TV room. There are the usual skirmishes over horsepower, cost, and developer support-as there is any time a new console hits the scene. This time, however, the gaming side of the equation has been made more complex by the choice of supported physical formats, and now with pricing announced for the two "high-end" consoles, we can consider how the next-generation optical format disc wars have factored into the strategies employed by Microsoft and Sony. In what follows, Ken Fisher at Arstechnica.com consider and argue that Sony's decision to include Blu-ray in the PlayStation 3 represents an unnecessary risk, and could end up hurting the company's efforts to combat gains by Microsoft.

[TheMART]

Yes it should for sure.

It isn't even a standard yet and furthermore: in the near future everything will be streamed or downloaded, no fysical media anymore like DVD's or other discs!!!

Games, movies, HD content all through internet/Markplace my friends. No need for players anymore... and discs that can be scratched so you loose the data/video/audio...

[THELANDSOFSAND]

The main problem I see with the Bluray is that it is a unpopular format, with a possibility (large?) that it may flop as a system like betamax did- can you go rent a new movie on betamax? No.

do i want to spend $600-1200 on a format that may be dead in 2 years and a joke in 10?

No.

Frankly I will wait and see who is dominant- HD-DVD or bluray, then I will buy a cheaper player in a few years.
DVD has great image and sound and is easy to backup. I have a good income but I have 2 children and I cannot afford a good sized HDTV- I am like millions and millions of americans, and I won't be doing HD-DVD's for years, in any format. And when I do buy into it I won't be buying the betamax of the future, because thats just a waste of money.

I choose a 360 because it can be optionally upgraded when my budget, TV and the HD market reaches my standards.

I wouldn't buy a PS3 purely because it only uses bluray. What happens to the PS3 if HD-DVD becomes the standard? No playing new movies on a PS3 in 5 years? lol
I can't risk $600 on that!

[OutLaw]

I like sony but they're pushing blu Ray to hard on us. I remember years ago when the dvd format came out Block Buster only had a few DVD's and thats it. VHS was still the popular format for movies. But now DVD's are the clear winner for movies. Does it mean that Blu Ray is going to do the same thing? No it doesn't. Unlike DVD (Who didn't have real competition) Blu ray has to go against HD-DVD Which could actually win the war in the movie category. If Sony wants to sell the PS3 drop the whole Blu Ray concept and sell the system cheaper and if later blu ray does good than sell it as a seperate unit like MS is doing for the 360. So I understand were you are coming from THELANDOFSAND. I also have a family and spending that type of money for a technology that could fail is troubling.

[shotty]

Sony is good at launching with a bang and make a quick buck then it's all over. Look at Beta-max sony convinced the world that it was truely superior to VHS and when people started buying it, the format failed. Look at UMD it had a OK line up at PSP launch but it also drifted off and now is in the bargain bin. It won't take off unless companies like Microsoft or Apple push it. They have way bigger user bases and they deliver what the consumers need which is why they don't really fail. Look at their products: Windows, Ipod, Xbox/360, Office.

[DOLBY DI GA TAL pf]

Sony's tring to sell us on things that they; them selfs as a company are gambling on; they got their fingers crossed and they want $600 bucks from my pocket, even if i liked their style, their qaulity, i would not pick up a PS3.

[kingboy]

which other ways are there to push blu ray faster and better ?The ps3 is the perfect solution.maybe u guys just forget blu ray is not a sony only product...in this case ur gettin it cheaper plus a gaming system

[TheMART]

Or it is the best way TO GO BANKRUPT

It´s a big gamble Sony takes. It costs a lot of money and what if Blu Ray won´t be the standard?

What then? Then they´ve burned really a lot of money, at home you have a player that is worth nothing and there won´t be major support in media to buy.

That would be rotten. Furthermore, let´s look at Sony´s recent media

Minidisc never became mainstream, although used by musicians especially

UMD never becomes mainstream

What competition made did, like the CD/DVD invented by Philips became mainstream.

You know why? Because Sony wants to make too much money on licenses for using their media. They´re too expensive. With Blu Ray again! And even worse, it is so copy protected that even making a backup for yourself is difficult.

DO YOU WANT THAT? You want Sony to have the consumer as a marionet? Be my guest. Blu Ray will fail. Sony can possibly go bankrupt over this adventure. Consumers want the cheapest option with the same possibilities or the most used. That´s HD-DVD. And for more, PC users always get the format that copies more easy. That´s HD-DVD.

For the rest, real media will be gone in a few years. Streaming and downloading games, video and HD content will be normal. No scratching media anymore!

[Grown Folks Talk]

yes it's CHEAPER. it will be the worst possible blu-ray drive you can get. people that care about blu-ray enough will most likely wait until better developed and stronger drives come out. they will be willing to spend more for the quality. i keep seeing people say that the ps3 is worth more than a 360 because of quality and what you get. so why is it different for blu-ray players? better quality will come out after the 2x drive in the ps3.

[VirtualGamer]

Same could be said for the HD-DVD add on that MS will be offering for the XBOX 360 but that's not stopping MS now is it?

[Grown Folks Talk]

so as far as we know, the add on for the 360 will be better than those out now. maybe not, but likely. the point is better quality, and i'm pretty sure the add on will be less expensive than a stand alone.

[VirtualGamer]

Your saying that compared to a stand alone Blu-Ray player the cheaper PS3 will be crap but the cheaper add on HD-DVD drive for the XBOX 360 will better quality then a stand alone HD-DVD player?

[achira]

you know that the step was good!!! ms did nothing in this way, thats why their console is not nextgen. sony tried to make the ps3 future proof, and as this it should have a better drive than a DVD. and once again, BD is not betamax you fool(#2). BD has far more support than HD-DVD. you dont want to believe but thats a fact !!! BD is the future, because its a good format and it has many support. so sony did a good step.

[TheMART]

If you think that a videodrive is next gen then you´re way off believing Sony´s lies.

A game console is for playing games. Next Gen makes it in graphics and things like getting better AI because of for example a triple core CPU as the 360 has where AI can get be calculated on a different core as the other things.

Playing movies is always better on a good standalone player. If a standalone GOOD QUALILITY Blu Ray player will cost about 1.200 Euro´s minimum at start, how good do you think Sony´s PS3 player will be? It will be rubbish, as the DVD player of the PS2 is.

A drive with larger capacity is not nescessery for the games. Blu Ray can be Betamax for sure. At first there was quit some support for Betamax also, but VHS was cheaper (like HD-DVD is also compared to BetaRay) so the consumer liked it better.

And you want to have media that is less easier to copy for own backup use? THat´s what Blu Ray does, limiting in possibilities, not creating new ones.

Sony did a bad step and lies all the time but Sony fanboys are not very bright to follow blindly...

[Islandkiwi]

When he talks about the system comparisons without having included blu-ray, I have to admit that appears to be a much more competitive system...and it could have been on the shelves already!

[achira]

theMart and Outlow, we know that you are xbox fans. on each news you start to bash. even when the news are good you are coming here to tell us that the ps3 is so worse and the xbox360 is so damn good. stop with this. outlaw if you like sony than you shouldnt talk such bs.but we know you dont like them. you your xbox360 is so good and exciting, why do you go on the ps3 news ??? if the ps3 is so bad, why do you read this news ??? please answer me this questions.

[Grown Folks Talk]

are people not allowed to have an opinion if it's not the same as yours? people don't all have to like the same things, and people can like a product or company, and still see faults with them. just because you don't like or care for a particular thing doesn't negate your right to speak on it. that's why it's a forum. at least the ridiculous crap that was in every other post hasn't cropped up yet. it's been mostly civil.

[TheMART]

Nope, I had a PS1 before, it´s just that this PS3 is one big lie of Sony. Furthermore, I like to comment on all news if I want it. There´s not one Sony fanboy that can forbid it.

And furthermore, I hope to save some souls of making the wrong choice which PS3 is for sure thank me for that my friend

[OutLaw]

achire Why do you start with me so much. I explain myself to you before but thats not good enough You called me a XRAT. I have all the systems in my house. 360, xbox, Game Cube, PS2, PSP and I order the DS lite. Does that sound like some one who hates Sony. Plus I have a Sony 57" HDTV and a Panasonic 61" LCD projection HDTV. I told you before it's nothing personal against them it's just they are lieing and talking alot of bull. Those must be some good Sony glasses you're wearing because you only keep seeing what you want to see about people. Anything else. Because I just gave you a explanation you wanted twice.

[DOLBY DI GA TAL pf]

Your're a super Sony fanboy that's why they bother you you can't ramble you're opinion like it's fact. Nothing wrong with keeping up with the hole gaming industry either.

[Grown Folks Talk]

in my opinion it doesn't really matter anyway. until one format (blu-ray or hd-dvd) becomes the totally supported standard, why should i care? to enjoy all of the movies you want at the full true definition, you'll need both a blu-ray and hd-dvd player since the studios are split. it would be better for those that plan on getting a stand alone to wait and see what the future brings, unless they already plan on buying both. i think progressive scan on my lcd is fine, so either way, i could care less.

[DG]

Who cares. $200 extra bring it on just give it to me. Americans love new shiny things. Japanese love Sony. And the British are just happy to get it first. Sony cant loose, they will have a market advantage on brand allone maybe not a big one for the first 2 years but give it time. We might deny it but at the end of the day we will swallow the $200 dollar sony pill just how we swalloed the $100 360 pill. Who cares just give me the big heavy shiny black box.
Edit.Their only problem will be supply and demand and if they can do better than MS its all over. Halo 3 and MGS4 yes please!

[shotty]

With Blu-ray out the ps3 will have fought competivily with the xbox 360. Their prices would have been nearly identical and sony could have released this spring. Now the ps3 has a burden on it called blu-ray that sony put to force people to adopt it nomatter the cost. If blu-ray was made by Microsoft or any other company do you think the ps3 would have it, No way. Sony is in it to monopalize the business. Hopefully MS and the N crush the PS3 and teach sony a valuable lesson. That way if there is a next time they will build a more competitive product.

[VirtualGamer]

He said that the only reason MS did not included HD-DVD was because they wanted to beat Sony to market. However if you look at the base PS3 for $499 and compare it to the Premium XBOX 360 at $399 they are basically the same except the PS3 has a Blu-Ray disk drive. So in essence your getting a Blu-Ray player for $100 bucks.

In the article it said the following....."Pricing has not been announced, but come Christmas 2006, it will be possible to play HD DVD movies via the Xbox 360 for the add-on price of US$199-299, we believe. Sources say that Microsoft hopes to unveil the HD DVD drive at a price that competes with the higher-end PS3, which would mean that it would have to be priced at US$199 or less. We'll see about that.
"
So lets go with the $199 price. XBOX 360 premium at $399 + HD-DVD add on movie player at $199 = a system cost of $600. So while MS offers you a choice for those that want a HD movie format player in thier XBOX 360 its going to cost you $100 more then if you had gone with the base PS3 or equal price if you had gone for the top end PS3 but you still come out on top because you get a 60GB HDD instead of a 20GB HDD.
So while MS offers a cheaper baseline for those that want to add things your going to pay a premium for it. Same goes for wanting to increase the HDD space on your system since MS went with laptop drives which are far more costly to upgrade then the PC standard HDD that Sony went with.
Another thing to consider is that the format war is only being fought for what will be the defacto HD-movie standard. When it comes to using Blu-Ray or HD-DVD as a form of digital storage I can see both existing for quite some time. Just like the DVD did not make CD's obsolete. You can store info on CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, flash drives, harddrives, etc. So as far as using Blu-Ray as a gaming storage media Sony has not risked anything more then MS did using DVD. Infact if it does turn out that DVD's will not be enough to store all the game code for HD games until the next console comes out then it very well maybe MS that risked to much just to come out first. Will have to wait and see.

[ssj04]

Even developer had come out and speak about the extra storage that are only on the blu-ray. They said the real AAA games that they been dream of doing had never been accomplish untill this technology come along call blu-ray. With 25gb to 50gb, developer can choose to make there world extreamly big or make every charactor in the game with it own unique personality.

When blu-ray are compare with dvd-9 is just not brainer of which one the developer will choose to make there AAA games.

DVD-9 could only hold up to 7.9gb and M$ have a copy protection in every disc taking up about 1gb, and that will leave about 6.9gb for gaming. With only 6.9gb, 360 games will never look and feel the same as the PS3 games. Some would ask how could they look any different? The different would be the fact that with the limitation within the disc storage, force the developer to recycle the use of textures and audio within the games so that they can fit an extreamly larg looking game onto one disc. The reason they didn't choose to expand there games into 2 or 3 disc of games play, simply because that will cost them even more to produce the game with that much of disc on one game. This is not about the dvd-9 price, it's about the coding and factory writing more than one disc for gaming.

You may argue that the game could be compress and that will solve the problem. But compression mean more work for the developer and more for for the CPU of the gaming system as well. When a developer look at the disc size and the idea of compressing, it just dosn't cut it for them since the game is there artworkd/hardwork. The idea of compression just can't be the first result of it any day. every compression will lose it true textures and true feeling of it, when decompress. Also compressing also come with a price.

So blu-ray is by all mean the true futures of gaming.

[OutLaw]

They are not using blu ray for games so that whole concept you just said is a dream.

[somesonyguy]

Just a question, but didn't Sony say they were requiring games to be released on the Blu-ray format only? So games on blu-ray discs are not the same as blu-ray being used for games? Seems kinda like your the one with bent logic. Please feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

[TheMART]

Nope it´s not.

A larger HDD drive and downloadable or streaming content is. Media that can scratch and have to be distributed on an expensive way will be out in a few years.

Watch marketplace work with paying for smaller downloads now. With those broadband internetconnections it will only be a matter of time before fysical media will be GONE.

So BetaRay is just delaying the future.

Furthermore, at this moment AAA games go somewhere from 2-3 GB´s up to max. 6 GB average. That hasn´t grown almost over the years since. With new great compression methods, they expect not to reach up to the full capacity of DL DVD soon. And even if they would in only a few % of all games, would 2 DL DVD´s be a real problem? I don´t think so up till the time that we´ll have a 1 Terabyte HDD on our console and just download the freaking games for a lot of less money then that we buy fysical media now

[OutLaw]

we will see if that happens or not. Sony saids alot of stuff that they have been going back on. If they make blu ray games great. But if they don't so who cares. If the system is good I'll buy one, if it's garbage then they could keep it. As for now I feel Sony can't be trusted and we will see if they release the system with blu ray in it, let alone have it out by November. Only time will tell so don't get to mad for a system you don't own yet. Because at the end Sony may disappoint us.

[ssj04]

So when there are about 10 major top developer came out and talking about how much use of the blu-ray will be for them. That was all a dream of mine? When developer said dvd-9 just dosn't cut it for them now, that was also all a dream fo mine? When Developer openly point it out that they will make a great use of the blu-ray large storage, that is another one of my dream?

Please before calling it a dream, better wake yourself up firt and open your eyes to the fact of reality.

[OutLaw]

Give me some sites or help post that great info you just said. How about a list of developers (that you could prove) that are making Blu Ray games. Please I need some good reading like that. How about the article that states how DVD-9 don't cut it for them. It's a dream thats it.

[kingboy]

Let launch day come ..that way we gonnna see,,,i wouldn`t be able to resist the ps3 when i see it in action in any game store.That time price would be nothing

[Ugly American]

I hate to be the one to point this out, but there is one INCREDIBLE format that no one is mentioning. DVD. Just DVD. The average consumer knows nothing about Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. People snatched up DVD, because it was revolutionary compared to VHS. You don't have to rewind? Sweet. You can jump to anywhere in the movie? Awesome. You can have multiple angles? REALLY Cool... wait, the only ones to use that consistently are porn movies.

HD IS prettier, but not enough to the average consumer at this point at these prices. If Blu-Ray fails, which it might because of the price difference between DVD and HD-DVD, you have a really expensive PS3 that has some old movies but still plays regular old DVDs. If HD-DVD fails because everybody becomes richer and buys the more expensive of the two players or we find out that nobody is ready to give up their DVD players, then you wrap up your little HD-DVD add on in a blanket and throw it in the attic and keep watching regular old DVDs.

The article is spot on. This IS a gamble for Sony. Beta-max in the 80s and UMDs currently are proving that. I am all about technology advancing, so heres to hoping DVDs don't win.

[somesonyguy]

It's kinda nice to be able to have arguments and dicussions without feeling like I need to make sure my wife isn't reading over my shoulder and catching things that should probably only be on a porn site (in reference to the old PS3Today site).

That being said and out of my system, yes, you're right, OutLaw, only time will tell how much of their end of the bargain they hold up. But even Sony can't back peddle on some of these issues too much more witout getting caught. I have a feeling we will be seeing some good things from them soon. If not I'll buy you a pizza or a burrito or something. Peace.

[OutLaw]

I know this good pizza place here in New York. So you're on. But I do hope Sony will be successful it's not good when one system dominates.

[ssj04]

"If the system is good I'll buy one, if it's garbage then they could keep it"

And why did you buy that overheating thing? if that is not garbage than i dont know what is it? when it launch, i dont even see one game worth buying, so why did you buy that garbage? lol ... I don't think you need anymore garbage when you got one in your room already ahha.

[OutLaw]

I'm probably the only one on this site who even talk to you with respect. But keep it up that all could change. If you never owned a 360 then the only one you are punishing is you. My system is just fine, but thanks for the concern of the over heating. I notice how you said that I don't think you need anymore garbage when you got one in your room already. That kind of explains that I must be speaking to a child. I have my own place. I don't live in a room. But I feel you probably still do. It must be hard to live in your small world. So please no more remarks from you. You're giving me a Headache.

[Ugly American]

Silly Stupid Jackass, drop the overheating thing. "Hahaha, it catch on fire. It burn down whole house. Haha. You so stupid." It has gotten old, and is apparently the only thing you can say in English. My 360 has worked fine from day one. I have bought four PS2's, and most were in the first year.

You aren't making any valid points here, and you are behaving like a small child who forgot to take their special pills. Grow up. Realize there is life outside of the PS3. There has to be, because you can't even own one, yet.

[ssj04]

In the latest OXM podcast, they talk to the Starbreeze art director of The Darkness. He praises the system, but at the end he says,

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Team Ninja:

http://www.joystiq.com/2005... infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it… However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."

"Enchan t Arms" developer:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/0... developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."

EA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/... a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."

Ninja theory:

IGN: Mail Bag.

Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!

Mar Rein:

http://www.computerandvideo... Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances.Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It'll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they're going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can't do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there's still a very important role for retailers.
For even more ownage here is an article about blu ray movies that already require and use 50gb discs

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles... and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor."

Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/... We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it’s limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That’s a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It’s awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible ”box” that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box – you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

[OutLaw]

Thank you for the News of 2005 and Enchant Arms is already done. So that pretty much is old news. Here in the states it's going to be call Enachanted Arms. also Team ninja already came out with their game. Maybe you know it. DOA. But nice try. Like I said before my system is fine so don't worry about the over heating problem. you're boring me. But on a serious note don't post crap like this again.

[VirtualGamer]

Thanks for posting those, I had not read most of those and it would definately appear Blu-Ray will have an impact on gameplay dispite the claims of XBOX 360 fans that Blu-Ray offers nothing of value for HD gaming. Great job!

[achira]

good researching ssj !!! outlaw its obvious that you are an xrat, so go to the xbox360 section.

[ssj04]

I knew that you'll still be in denial... dosn't matter if The developer himself come to you house and explain it to you in person, you will still be in denial... That is why they call peoples like you Fanboy...

[OutLaw]

Alright you won I'm glad that some things make you happy. Now go take that nap that I told you to do earlier. Maybe later you wouldn't be so grouchy. Now lets say goodbye. Okay? Good boy.

[PittzBlitz2003]

Give the guy a break. People asked for proof that developers were using blu-ray for games and that is what he gave. As for downloading games, as games get larger, that will become harder and harder. With a 20 gig harddrive like the 360 has, that is only about four games you can hold and only about 10 DVD sized games that the 60 gig PS3 can hold. Now if a game is 25 gigs, you wont be able to hold crap on a harddrive. I know my internet has problems downloading a 500 mb demo without being interupted much less a 25 GB file. Also, if your harddrive happens to crash you have to download the content over again. So, I personally see physical formats being around for a while.

[OutLaw]

I would be convinced of what you're saying if the 360 harddrive wasn't removable. MS is already making a 100GB harddrive, but nice try.

[achira]

outlaw, there exists bigger hdds than 100GB. the problem is that the developer can not depend that everyone has a big hdd, or any. BD is an advantage, dont deny this.

[THAMMER1]

Most games during development most games are on like 3 or 4 DVD’s. Blue ray cuts down on the development aspect but most games end up being just a few gigs after production is complete. (Oblivion 4.5 gigs) When you hear a dev. talk about blue ray being better this is what they are referring too. In the end Sony is still trying to brain wash you into thinking that being a pawn is O.K. well its not!!!

[ssj04]

they recycle the content, textures, images, and so on thruw out the game. If you havn't notice it, you will now. Look at the dragon, look at the textures in the cave in the landscape, the tree, they all look similar and alike. Because it use recycle content thruw out the games. Plus the game is compress, when rip into your pc. It came out to be around 6.8-7.4 gb. Go ahead and try to rip some of your 360 games onto your pc. And you'll see the true gb of it. they have to compress the games because if they don't it will look like dvd-9 is already hiting it limit and it just lanuch. Even with compression within the games of the 360, still you will find some of the games come out around 5-6.7gb already. To think about it reaching the limitation will not be long.

Reminder: dvd-9 is 7.9gb + M$ copy protection in every disc about 1gb = 6.9gb for gaming left.

[THAMMER1]

Every game you play reuses textures. Get real PS3 using blue ray is cool but not it is still Sony way to rip your @ss off. I am not happy about it I know this is my opinion but Sony needs to really convince us gamers that this is a necessary addition to console gaming. They really cant until like 2008. DVD can be compressed up to 13 gigs.

[ssj04]

-720p
-32 online multiplayer or splitscreen mp
-up to 800 planes at once
-60fps
-plane flying
-tank/jeep driving
-6-axis controller support
-soldier running
-seamless worlds (hundreds of sq miles)
-amazing looking water + clouds
-4xAA
-downloadable content

"Dunno if it was ever mentioned, but Warhwak will have a completely seamless world, where you can fly and lend wherever you want from the beginning of the game, and also pick up available missions in any order you want and sometimes be able to do them from air or from ground, also using ground vehicles or on foot. It sounds very GTA-ish in terms of freedom that it allows.

There's going to be your capitol city with miles tall skyscrapers, and also varied environments like mountains, swamps, countrysides, islands, etc.

32 player multiplayer takes place in the same world, and again, anyone can jump into ground vehicles, or fly above and help the ground troops, etc.

- Another factoid I remember is that there can be up to around 800 enemies (the number of enemy swarms increases towards the end of the game) on the screen you are fighting against, and the game is supposed to be rock solid 60FPS.

- One SPU is running a wave simulation for water, another is rendering clouds using software raytracer, and then they are overlayed on the rest of the scene rendered by RSX, so clouds in particular are rendered in the same way CGI movie effects are done."

[ernande]

I love the game library for my PS2.

Sony is going to have to step up and compete against the monster that is XboxLIVE. Say what you will about MS, but they have got the online element down.

Here is an interesting CNET article about Sony's major failure in online and portable music:

http://news.com.com/How+Son... needs to hit a homerun in their first at-bat. If they slip up, the PS3 is toast. The Xbox offers similar power at a more affordable price with the premiere online community. The Wii will have gamers interested in the innovative gameplay. If Sony lags or botches their online service, Nintendo and MS will split the share of the market.

Here's the tricky part:

SONY CANNOT LOWER THE PRICE OF THE PS3.

Doing so would KILL the standalone Blu-Ray market. Who would buy a standalone for $799 when a PS3 is lowered to only $299? It would devestate the Blu-Ray group, which would leave Sony as the only player left to promote Blu Ray....and turn Blu Ray into the next UMD format.

So Sony has really hurt itself by combining games with Blu-Ray. They cant compete with the price of other consoles, yet they cant lower the price of the PS3 without killing manufacturer support for Blu Ray. Quite a dilemma.

[anonymous]

I think Sony completely missed the mark on this.

- Extreme price point ($599 US for a version that support Wi-Fi and HD)
- Late mover (360 and potentially Wii beat them to market)
- Customer forced to purchase unproven tech (Blu-Ray. What if Blu-Ray fails, then you don't have an HD DVD option.)
- Lack of innovation (same ergonomically poorly designed controller)
- Poorly implemented innovations (subpar copy of Wii controller functionality and 360 dashboard)
- Ugly design (personally, I think the unit looks like a sci-fi inspired version of a betamax player)

I don't think I'm alone either. Browse any online gaming website and you'll see a rabid fan base eating it alive. Nintendo looks genius in releasing their controversial Wii name ahead of this. No one will even remember it was an issue by the end of the week...

[COVER GIRL]

Hmmm, Sony lost me on this one.

At this price clearly the 360 is the winner. By Xmas the 360 will have a huge library, be even cheaper, have all its hardware issues ironed out... the PS3 will be super expensive, probably have a host of hardware issues, contain potentially useless hardware (blueray) and have hardly any games (few of which will take advantage of the stolen idea implemened at the last minute to try and steal Nintendos thunder)

[ssj04]

What are you talking about? you guys were never with Sony in the first place, so how did Sony lost you again? You are noting but 360 fans pretenting to care and try to sidetrack peoples into beliving that all of Sony fans lost fade in Sony. Well guess what out of thoes 100mill PS2 fans, only 50mill is needed to bring the PS3 to the top once again. If you choose to pass over the PS3 than fine by us PS3 fans. Who would care what are you buying or not buying, the fact of the situation is that in the end we the PS3 fans are the one that will be playing true next generation games. The 360 fans were so excited about 99 Night, about how it will have hundred of charactors on screen at once, but at the same time WarHawk could produce 800 planes with a rock solid 60fps at once. That's still not the best part about the game, the best part would be that the game allow you to switch from air to ground unite as please. ALso remember that the game is only 30% complete at the moment, and yet can produce an incredible graphic with a rock solid 60fps during game play.

[Ugly American]

SSJ, I don't think anybody will ever live up to your true expectations of a Sony Fan. Nobody and nothing will be good enough for you. That is why you are a Sony FanBOY. You have to face facts that Sony has not done the best job with sticking to what they have said in the past. The biggest and most glaring one of all is: "The PS3 WILL launch this spring." How many times did we hear that? And up until they finally admitted that it would be pushed to a holiday release, they continued and EMPHASIZED that it would definitely make a spring launch. If that doesn't dishearten even some of the most loyal fans, I don't know what will.

Face it, other Sony fans have higher standards than you are holding Sony to, and it is a real possibility that their faith may fade.

[anonymous]

Sony does not have 100mill fans Sony has close to only 50mill fans, the number of PS2 units sold has nothing to do with the number of PS fans, Sony's only got about 25mill fans to it's base. Sony needs about 100mill to bring the PS3 to the top once again, if what you say is true. And PS3's at $600 a pop it may die out before then. I see you like WarHawk, it does sound cool. Believe me i looked it up they sold a little over 100 M I L L I O N units and people went through T H R E E or F O U R PS2's

[MISSY E]

I went and got something to eat and i guess i timed out, so that' how people are posting Anonymous.

[COVER GIRL]

Sony shiped around 103 million not sold; but for Sony; it does'nt matter because once the PS1-2's are shiped they make their money and it's up to the retailer's to sell them from there. But as for the size of the base i seen the real number on Sony's installed base and it's indeed only 50-million i read it from a good source but can't rememder where?. I also so did some diging and Sony's specs on every console they put were false 9 out of 10 times.

[DOLBY DI GA TAL pf]

What are you ladies doing out here in the wilderness, its dangerous out here, come back where its safe lol.

[mikeeno7]

i'm tired of people posting things that they don't understand!! SSJ 04!! The point is Elder Scrolls 1V: Oblivion is the biggest game on X360 currently. It is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE, GIGANTIC game with constantly uploaded content. Yet it has only used up 4.6GB out of a 9GB DVD-9. Bethesda said it themselves. Plus, with all those compressive techniques this can be shortened further. The fact: next gen games cost more to make (an extra 25%). Therefore, games are going to get more sequels to gain back profit or they will simply make shorter games but with super-detail. The stupid amount of GB storage of Blu-Ray will never be used, not in this generation, not in another 4-6 generations of videogaming. Peace.

[achira]

sorry but ssj is right. what is important are the textures. and in oblivion there are always the same textures. the trees are random generated and so on, thats why the game is large but it does not use much space.

[Grown Folks Talk]

the lack of a properly used hard drive didn't stop you from enjoying the ps2 games did it? the use of a hard drive in the xbox didn't make it your favorite did it? the best system is the one that has the games YOU like the most. or if you can afford, 2, or all 3. it's really simple. get what YOU like. all of these companies lie and bs and overhype to get our money. none of them care about us as individuals, they care about what comes out of our pockets. i wonder if a lot of these posters are so blindly loyal to other products and companies. are they this passionate about sneakers, clothes, furniture, food, ect. we don't owe these companies anything except the price we pay for their products. and even if you like a particular thing, you can still find faults or be angry with them. have you never been mad at a friend or loved one? it happens. even things we like can upset us at times, so just because someone has a negative feeling about something sony does, doesn't automatically make them an xbug, xrat, ect. they might never have even owned an xbox, but just happen to have a gripe. everybody that voted for george bush probably doesn't still like him. feelings change.

[ssj04]

DVD-9 is 7.9gb, + m$ copy protection in every disc taking up about 1gb, that leave 6.9gb for gaming. If you dont belived me go do research on it.

Like I said before Oblivion use recycle content/textures.

[ssj04]

You mostly hear M$ fans saying that they have there ps2 system die on them more than one time...

but Sony fans claim that there ps2 never die, and some are just have to replace one time.

But when a 360 fans claim, they claim that they have to replace the system up to 7 or even 9 time... wow That person must be a big time Sony fans to keep buying the PS2 after all of that.

Give me a break, when claiming that more than half of the owner of ps2 have there system replace. Everyone I knew never had there system replace. And yet a M$ fans manage to get there system replace 5-9 time. That is just crazy talk.

[zinnia]

People had to replace ps2s 2 or 3 times thats what the lawsuit was about [read disc error ect]yes MS fans claim that they replaced ps2 two or three times, thats why their xbox fans. Their was too many broken ps2s after the warrent so Sony had to fix and replace them ,and many would just buy them over and over again. and it cost some 50 bucks. You seem smart and you do much research but you make stuff up to trick people that don't know any better. Sony shipped 103-million and and many broke.

[halo4life]

you are also forget that the PS2 has the casual gamers that the other reason is sold 100+

[user9422077]

it should be free IMO