David Jaffe argues with Twitter user over used game sales

David Jaffe uses twitter to put forth his idea of giving back a percentage of Gamestop's used game sales back to the publisher. This does not sit well with another twitter user and an argument ensues.

[Xbox360Elite]

David Jaffe should just shut his trap asking for more $$$ maybe he just found out his game won't sell as much as it should due to poor sony fan base.

[Kazunori Yamauchi]

Oh are you mad that his game cant be done on your system with out blowing it up. Im guessing you hate me too, blame MS for the weak hardware that is the xbox 360.

CEO of Polyphony Digital and creator and producer of the Gran Turismo series, Kazunori Yamauchi

[Saaking]

Stupid bot, every publisher looses money from used game sales. Don't drag your fanboyism into this you idiot.

[ZombieAutopsy]

if it was peter molyneux saying this i bet you'd agree with him...keep your fanboyism in your head where it belongs.

[Silverwolf]

ebay is making a killing for just providing a place to sell used stuff. Who's going after them? Yet these cry babies keep giving gamestop exclusive content.

[gamesR4fun]

lol well i cant blame him for trying but no way in hell used is used suck it up the dev got their cash already. If u want to keep cashing in on ol used games make dlc thats attractive and affordable end of story.

"Jaffe: dont buy it- you’d just resell the fu@ker anyway."

lol Jaffes jus gone full retard idc as long as the games he puts out still rock lol

[KILLA J]

so, if i want to sell my MAZDA3 should MAZDA get another profit for that?........... DAVID JAFFE is not making sense

[Reibooi]

I love the idiots in this case Jaffe who say because music went pretty much entirely download that everything else will.

ITS NOT THE CASE!!!! Songs are small tiny little files that you do nothing but listen too. Its a big difference from massive files for movies and games that you listen watch and play. It is this reason on top of the US's crap internet and many other reasons why I don't think games will or should go download only in the future.

Now I will agree that Gamestop should come up with a way to help support the devs and the most logical way is to cut them in on the used game sales. However that is their biggest money maker so of course they are gonna be hesitent.

I would also like to state that I'm not against digital Distribution because i could not sell the game i bought back. I pretty much never sell my games back. It's because I like owning the physical copy I like having it on my shelf I like not having to worry about if my hard drive crashes how I will play it again or have to spend time re downloading it when I want to play it again. I like being able to go to the shelf pick it up put it in the console and done I can play. Alot of people agree with that and it's that mentality that I think will prevent digital distribution from taking over anytime soon even if the industry tries to push it on us.

[morganfell]

If publishers selected better dev teams to build their products and stopped shoveling so much mediocre crap out the door then fewer people would feel compelled to run down the street and trade in titles.

For every time publishers groan and cry about not getting a piece of used game sales I can demonstrate a thousand times where their shovelware just brought some gamer a days worth of frustration and shrieking comments such as, "I can't believe I blew $59 on this crap!"

When was the last time Ford or GM got a piece of the car you sold after it was already paid off? How many industries have that procedure? "Well it's intellectual property!" Really? When was the last time used book sales sent money back to any publisher or writer? When was the last time the descendants of Rembrandt received a check from Sotheby's or Christies because one of his paintings was auctioned off?

And if Jaffe, whom I like in certain ways feels it will be a moot point then why is he having a cow? Gamestop isn't going anywhere. They are getting in to Digital distro and they just swallowed up Gamefly. Besides, I have seen publishers and devs come and go. Goodbye SSI, goodbye Origin, goodbye Midway, good riddance Grin.

And don't say look at the music biz. Jaffe just made a complete ass of himself there. If anything digital distribution has made pirating far far worse than it ever was.

[crck]

Devs are just making themselves look like whiners. If you want more money lower the fricking prices of your games quicker. Most gamers wouldn't mind paying $5 to $10 more then the used game prices for new games. But when companies keep the new game prices at ridiculous levels it makes absolutely no sense to buy it new. Heavenly Sword and Uncharted are perfect examples of this. I know Uncharted just dropped to $30 but before that it was $60 along with Heavenly Sword. Who the hell is going to drop $60 for a new copy when you can get it used for $25 to $30. I can't imagine how many sales Sony has lost in the last year or two keeping those old games at such high price points.

[kickaski]

Hello everyone please don't confuse the developer with the publisher. Also, the difference between profit and revenue.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

True, that Sony might have lost some sales by keeping the prices of those games so high, but if they lost less than half of the gamers they still come out ahead!

I think Sony for some reason keeps it standard to have their published games listed at a high price. I bought Heavenly Sword last Thanksgiving I think on amazon.com sale and got it for $20. I was surprised to find that it virtually had no price drops. I'm still waiting for a $20 Uncharted!

Oh, by the way I never buy used games personally! I don't like the idea of other people handling my games in potentially nasty ways and hence don't like lending my games away either.

[Elven6]

Kilaj: Ford for example has used car dealerships that not only sell used Ford cars but other companies as well. So if you want to sell your Mazda car back to Mazda they can make a second profit on it.

[Aclay]

For anyone that reads this that has their own site that wants to post this or for anyone that's just interested, David Jaffe has already posted a response video to the Twitter user about Used Games:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

I personally don't buy Used games, and I buy all my games New. The only game I've bought used is Ico like 7 or 8 years ago, and I only bought it used because I couldn't find it new in stores. If there's a game that I want and just don't feel like it's worth paying $60 bucks for, I'll just wait for it to go down in price about $20 bucks first.

The majority of the games that I pay $60 bucks for are the AAA calibur high quality titles, and/ or just games that are on my "Must Buy List". Developers put so much time and work into game titles, and I do believe that they should get a cut of Used game sales from Gamestop.

@crck,

I have to agree with you somewhat... I really do think that Sony lost out on a LOT of game sales by keeping the price of the games they published (like Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, Motorstorm Pacific Rift, etc...) at full price for so long. I bought both Uncharted 1 and Heavenly Sword the exact day they came out, but so many people probably would have bought it if the price was gradually lowered over several months, and I've noticed that Sony tends to keep the prices of the games they publish at Full price price for a LONG time.

[RememberThe357]

The "your just whiners" argument.

David Jaffe is talking software here. Not cars or consoles. Software. This is not the same. Car manufacturers can't take their product and put it on line for people to download. However, game publishers can. And he has a really good point about GameStop. If they don't play ball with the publishers DD will take over. That is not a threat, but a fact. Used game sales are taking a pretty large chunk out of publishers potential profits. With DD they don't have to worry about that.

GameStop is running a business and they know exactly what they are doing. They are going to hold out as long as they can, and once DD starts to take hold, they will make a deal with publishers. They want to stay viable for as long as possible, and that seem to be the most profitable way of doing so.

Jaffe may be coming off as "whining" but he is making a very valid business point.

But all of this underscores the bigger problem; $60 for a video game. If these publishers really want to reach a mass audience a $60 price tag is not going to do it. It is one of the reasons I don't think we'll ever see a game sell like GTA:SA did. Because games are too damn expensive.

[morganfell]

Go listen to Jaffe's Youtube post, he sounds like a loon. You can't help the customer and be pro customer and stab them in the back at the same time.

As I posted at Youtube:

I have never ever traded a great game. I have never ever traded even a good game. But piece of crap games I have taken back the very day I bought them. Nothing is better security against used games than a great game.

BTW Dave, if Gamestop has to cut you in then the price of a used game the customer would have to pay the same as a new game. Win win for you, lose lose for the customer. I am tired of paying $59 for a 5 hour piece of crap.

And grow up, no one is playing games to sell them.

[morganfell]

Jaffe is perfectly stupid if he believes you can muscle Gamestop. The publisher is going to have to be satisfied with their cut.

Currently most digital downloads cost the same as a retail copy. Does he think they can keep charging the same for games if they crush Gamestop and anyone else that resells games by going all digital? How much is a customer going to want to pay if they know they are stuck with a piece of crap? How many people will jump on a game without a better chance to try it out? And by try it out I mean try it out only to realize what an utter piece of trash a game happens to be.

Ergo (used correctly here) they would have to charge less for a game that took the same amount of sweat and money to produce the physical media version. Who are they going to whine to then? "The ISPs should pay us money!"

Fact is they will have to exert more money and sweat to justify the purchase of an untradeable game.

How about a prenuptial style agreement on games Dave? I have to get rid of your title due to irreconcilable differences then you get nothing.

Jaffe says gamers should be able to sell games. Where Dave? I get it. Only sell to a location that gives you a cut back. You kill Gamestop, then who is next? As someone already noted, who is next? Ebay?

Here is the ugly truth to which developer Dave is blind. Publishers need Gamestop. If Gamestop disappeared tomorrow they would be in a hurt locker. Suck it up and be happy eating with the devil you know.

[Poopface the 2nd]

if I buy a game Its my choice to sell it if I want. I dont like gamestop but I have a right to sell anything that Is mine. I could sell my used socks if someone would buy them. Most good games sell good enough, and if they dont getting a cut from used games wont help enough.

[sunil]

So... if publishers decide to drop game prices if they get a piece of the used game cake then I am all for it...

But we all know thats not going to happen...

[Oner]

This is one of those situations where it is hard to "choose" a side because there are so many different points of which have validity and some which are based off stupidity.

All **I** can say is that while I definitely believe that once I buy something IT IS MINE to do with as I so damned pleased, no matter who the F says what about what. PERIOD. If I want to mod the case of a 360 to get better air flow to get it working, I WILL DO IT. If I want to mod my PSP to play emu's because there aren't any titles I feel are worth playing, I WILL DO SO. On the same token if I am disappointed with or am done with an old title/console etc. and I want to sell/trade/destroy it I WILL DO IT. It is in MY possession after I paid MY cash for it. AGAIN It is mine to do as I please with it no matter if even the government says you "aren't" supposed to do "X" to it.

BUT as far a Gamestop goes. SCREW THEM. They pay someone who sell/trades stuff absolute pennies on the dollar for (most) items that inherently have a higher value than what THEY denote. So that is where I agree with Jaffe that the model is flawed but NOT to put money back in devs pockets OR in Gamestops as well because to charge only $5 LESS than a brand new $60 game that you paid MAYBE $15 (if that) is down right robbery and definitely NOT a deal for the customer you "supposedly" serve.

Lastly as far as Digital Distribution goes and it taking over in 5 years...Nope. No way. No how. Ain't gonna happen in even 10-15 years. For quite a few reasons.

1) Penetration to rural areas
2) Old infrastructure in MOST places that can't handle faster speeds and are too costly to upgrade
3) The cost of access being too costly to the masses
4) People want physical items. Always have. Always will.

Now #4 is not a definitive for EVERYTHING but you ask anyone and they will agree they would rather OWN something that they BOUGHT and WORKED for to SHOW something tangible/display/collect etc.

So while I do see & understand where Jaffe is coming from or trying to explain it is truly just a guise of "it's in the customers best interest" when it is not. It's in HIS (devs) best interest. And the best thing devs can do to protect themselves in this situation & FOR ALL, is to make quality games that people WON'T want to sell/get rid of WHILE making regular/consistent/interesting downloadable FREE & FAIR priced content for the customers of which they are trying to keep.

That way you can make additional money and when the owner sells it another person can continue the same pattern and they can still make money off the so called "loss" of the used game sale. Everyone is Happy.

[Lightsaber]

Wow after the total disrespect jaffe show for his fans and the his customers I lost all respect for this guy. I think I just buy God of war 3 use of ebay so he cant have a dime of my money then I'll resell it

[gamesR4fun]

i cant believe anyone would argue that to say that once you bought something you still owe me if you sell it... its jus nuts.

Look Jaff i dont know u but you gotta b smarter than that. Just put out more kick ass dlc for your games that way anyone who buys the game used will want to pay for the added content. Just make it attractive enough that no one wants to pass it up. You know like a whole new chapter on GOW3 or new challenge/ game modes. Price it right add some real value n ya you'll make money.

[Lifendz]

They got their money off the initial sale, no? Maybe if a brand new game didn't cost so much people wouldn't sell as many games. And there are other situations where buying a used game over new makes sense.

For example, I recently purchased Fallout 3 used off Ebay.I refused to buy it new because the PS3 version was buggy as all heck and lacked trohies. It made no sense to pay 59.99 for the game new when the game is almost a year old. If the dev had made a game that wasn't a bug haven at launch perhaps I would have got it.

[likedamaster]

Is this what working for Sony/PS3 does to you?

[Amplitude]

I agree and disagree for different reasons.

[Rant]
I think Digital Distribution sucks hardcore, and everything besides small games should be released ON A DISC. I buy all my music on CDs, and only buy singles and music videos off of iTunes. I buy all my PS3 games (Warhawk, Socom, Gran Turismo, Burnout) on discs rather than digital, but still buy games like Super Sonic Acrobatic Rocket-Powered Battle-Cars off PSN because, quite frankly, that's a game that just doesn't need a disc. I also buy all my movies on blu-ray, unless of corse it isn't on bluray - in which case i'll rent it off of iTunes.

Catching my drift here? CDs are encoded at a MUCH higher bitrate than iTunes crap. Disc-based PS3 games are better because you get the disc, and sometimes extra content (Socom extras, Warhawk extras). Movies on blu-ray are in 1080p with PCM/DTS-HD audio, wheras iTunes movies arre in compressed 720p with lossy Dolby Digital audio.

Disc-based content will be here forever, and so will Digital Downloads. Now, as for trading in games to gamestop or EB without giving any cut to the developers? Well that i DON'T agree with. When selling a used car, there is a disadvantage - that car has miles put on it and will not last as long as it did when it was new. It's practically a completely different product than the car purchased from the retailer.
A game however, is the same game in 30 years. Buying a used game or a new game is the exact same thing. There is NO DIFFERENCE to the consumer, so why would the consumer buy a game new? Well they wouldn't. This = a loss in profits for the developers. Profits that they deserve.

[/Rant]

[callahan09]

At the start of their discussion the first thing that guy does is criticize his game and tell him if it had come out digital distribution, he'd never have bought it. I'd tell that guy to eff off as well, quite honestly. Because it's about the game and the fun, not the goddamn ability to buy the game, play it, and resell it. If you only have one method of buying and playing a brilliant game, then you should do that, and not ignore the game just because you can't resell it after you played it. I would have taken his comment as just as much of an insult as Jaffe did, quite frankly. Also, the guy makes some pretty stupid points, like shutting out GameStop would eliminate the possibility for consumers to resell their games. You can sell your games at Amazon, on Ebay, you can trade them on sites like Goozex, etc. I don't know if I agree with Jaffe or not about whether GameStop should have to cut in developers/publishers on their used game sales (in fact, I probably disagree with it), and I definitely don't agree with all-digital distribution (I love having my collection on the shelf). But that other dude was being an unnecessary a**hole just to dispute Jaffe's opinion. He's a developer and I can see why he would want to get as much reward as possible for his games, and I'm not about to go be a jerk to him over his opinion, ya know?

[vhero]

Sorry but if games weren't so expensive to begin with the used trade would be practically non existent. I mean sure you could argue they gotta pay the wages of the developers but hell they set them bloody wages not the buyers! I was buying games at £2 each as a kid now there £50 the difference is silly. Devs put this problem on themselves and have no right to moan about it.

[callahan09]

vhero,

I dunno what you're talking about. When I was a kid, I had an NES, and my parents were buying me games at prices between 40 and 80 USDollars. That's more than the price range of games these days, which can be as low as 3 bucks for downloadable titles, or 5 dollars, 8 dollars, 10, 15, 20 dollars, there's 30 dollar titles, 40 dollar titles, 50 dollar titles, and 60 dollar titles. All sorts of games in all ranges of quality, for all sorts of different price points. And nothing nearly as expensive as the most expensive NES games were. And those NES prices are NOT inflation-adjusted. In today's dollars, those games were MUCH more expensive than today's games. SNES games were between 60 and 80 in 1990s dollars. N64 games were about 60 to 80 as well. This generation is actually good in terms of game affordability, particularly when you consider downloadable offerings. Games like Fat Princess and Shadow Complex would have been full-priced games in prior generations, but you can get them for 15 dollars today.

I dunno where you were getting games for £2, because I've never seen games in that price range except for today's absolute cheapest downloadable games, and maybe some extremely common used games from long-gone generations, like copies of the original Super Mario Bros. for NES can be found for very low prices like that. But certainly not back in the day, when they were new, they were NOT that cheap.

[Zeevious]

Not consumer interest, not being fair...not anything but greed.

Jaffe may make good games but the arguments simply don't hold up.

When was the last time you sold ANYTHING you own and even considered giving more money back to the manufacturer from that sale?

Used Car...TV...Table...DVD's...Lem onade?
(You owe Koolaid & the Dixie Crystal Sugar people...PAY UP!)

Developers already have the profit off sale of the item, new...now they want MORE from it because you own it...you sold it...someone else bought it?

NOTHING...absolutely NOTHING works that way because consumers have the right to sell their possessions.

What Jaffe & others like him are insisting on is a complete change in the inherent value of consumer purchases & property.

Essentially LICENSING physical items to you...amounting to nothing more than a rental...NOT ownership, and making sure they get a cut...then another cut...and if it's sold again...Yet another cut!

POINT : Grand Theft Auto IV
I bought into the hype & found the game more Grand Theft Boring than anything else.
It was NOT an open world sandbox game at all...but a VERY linear storyline with a playground attached.
It had far, far, far less character interactivity than an older game, Oblivion, where you could talk to ANYONE, listen in on conversations, actually watch people go about their lives through Morning Noon & Night...Go inside ANY building & perception of you, good-or-bad changed based on your actions.
The people on the streets weren't just non-interactive background window dressing but part of quests, side-quests, fun, rumors, unexpected personalities & just plain immersive adventure.

I GAVE GTA-IV away to a friend -- Do I owe Rockstar extra money for that...because their game was a step backwards...wasn't really a sandbox game at all & I didn't care enough to keep it?

By YOUR model, Jaffe I do...
You should be embarrassed by your clearly outspoken greed.

Thanks for the great games, but in this case your absolutely right -- You Need To Shut The -F- Up!
.

[darx]

I'll continue to buy used, thank you very much!

[spooky205]

please stop already with the car analogies. it isnt the same. i work at a dealership for over 5 years now. you see when you go to the dealer the dealer has priority on selling you brand new vehicles. The dealer wants to keep good relations with the manuafacturer to ensure future business together. if a dealer diverts you to a used vehicle other than a new one its usually because you are a high risk and they also dont want to ruin their relationship with the finance company. The dealership tends to both the manuafacturer and the finance company so everyone makes profit keeps up future relations. not gamestop. they make their employees push used video game sales on you for almost retail price thus ruining relationships with devs. they even go as far as to off you 10 bucks on a game you payed 60 bucks for and even then they want to give you store credit no cash and ruin relationships with customers alike. Gamestops future is indeed counted due to their crap business policies.

[vhero]

@callahan09 we aint all 13 on here ya know? My first system was a spectrum 48k mate and games I remember the 99p range on that system and the most expensive games were £7. So next time you want to write 2 whole paragraphs on absolute trash get your facts straight.

[GameGambits]

THIS JUST IN FOR BIG GAMING NEWS!

David Jaffe took a poop that was 40 kuriks!

In other recent news...

Cliffy B was spotted eating food and drinking water!

Tune in later for Miyamoto walking and Kojima breathing.

[callahan09]

@ vhero,

I'm not 13 years old, "mate." I'm 25. I've been gaming over 20 years. Maybe there were cheaper games back then, but complaining about the price of games today is a bit ludicrous considering all the information I posted. Games have been more expensive in the past, even MORE so if you consider inflation. Games have been SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the prices you're quoting for the better part of 25 years now. So those prices you quote are totally irrelevant. You can't even compare the development cost of games back then to games today. Games today cost an insane amount to produce, and YES, it is TOTALLY RELEVANT that there are pricing structures these days that make cheaper-to-produce games CHEAPER-TO-BUY. There are plenty of 3 dollar games out there these days. But the more expensive to produce games cost more to purchase, and rightly so. So I feel that my original response to you is completely relevant and legitimate.

[The Lazy One]

Good post. A lot of people overlook the fact that it is a better option for publishers. Regardless of whether they care about the consumer or not, they're still going to try to make the most money possible, and used game sales hurt their profits.

It's in gamestops best interest to help publishers if they want to keep them from switching their distribution method.

If you think about it, the less money publisher's make, the more games will have to cost to make up the production cost. I'd much rather pay $45 for a new title and a smaller used game market than pay $60 for new games and $50 for used titles.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

GameStop is making a killing of used video games and essentially created a large secondary market that bypass publishers/developers (the very people that create the product). However, this is no different than used DVD or music sales.

I see Jaffe's argument pretty reasonable although both have an attitude that does not promote discussion.

a) Publishers/developers can bypass retailers completely, but that would also affect hardware and accessory sales. Meaning, retailers might not want to promote products that does NOT bring recurring sales (PSP Go?) and especially the low profit ones (consoles).

b) Publishers/developers have essentially created the used game market themselves by creating so little profit for the retailer that in some cases it isn't even worth the hassle. Games sales should be like books were you can send back old stock any time instead of having the retailer eat the cost and clearance out the games. I actually wonder why retailers can make money with this business model and the ones that are successful (GameStop/GameCrazy) tends to order very few titles of questionable games and many of popular ones. I frequently find Gamestop (not that I shop there frequently) out of games and almost always find them cheaper in other stores plenty abound....

It is just a matter of time before we go all digital. I guessing another 10 years, because the music industry has already laid the groundwork. Digital downloads are just more acceptable now.

[Sarick]

They might start the same thing EA is planning with Dragon Age. You buy a game and it has a one time code that unlocks content.

When the customer buys a used game they can get it for lower price but it won't have this content unlocked. Basically they add licensed content on the disc so if a game is sold used the only way to unlock it legally is to purchase that used content.

You know what else is going on. If you look Gamestop has been making special deals like this when you pre-order you get special limited content such as special in game items or dl content privileges only available to customers who buy from Gamestop..

Microsoft and Sony have been doing it with download add-on content. To the users it's transparent most of the time. As a developer they're still making money off used games this way because even used games require the owners to pay for add-on content.

Jaffy, is going about it all wrong trying to tell the customer he owns the game and should get a share. The truth is that if his game stands the test of time even the used or traded games can continue to give him money. Unfortunately, being narrow minded seems to be the trend these days. Jaffy, if you can't earn money on used games it's a simple fix. Sale content that earns money for both new and used. Resales won't be an issue if the content is worth it.

Look at Little Big Planet and Home. They are practically giving away LBP and it's making a fortune off download content. Millions of free levels and still turning a profit. Home, totally free yet still making a fortune for Sony.

#1 If you want money for new sales keep the new software copies from going totally out of production. Stop complaining about used sales the real market is in the add-on content.

#2 Keep them interesting by having content updates that keep customers buying content for used games. This way games continue to generate profit without interfering with the used sales or customers rights to own or resale their physical media.

[Saaking]

Digital Distribution is a long ways off (Many,many years). People who actually "trade-in" games at Gamestop are simply stupid. Gamestop rips people off and damages the gaming industry. They should be put down.

[XxBarretxX]

i knew before ll of you (because i follow djaffe on twitter) but everything he said does make sense

[ElementX]

Jaffe's comments and thoughts are no longer relevant. He's just doing it for show. Stick with game development Jaffe, and shut the hell up.

If I buy a used game from amazon.com, ebay.com, or half.com, should the seller pay the developer a percentage of the profits for selling their own merchandise? NO!

I think it's time developers give something extra to original sales. Like I read about where inside each game you get a code to download exclusive stuff.

If I sell my old games on Ebay I'm sure as hell not going to give the developers any cut.

BTW, it's the publishers who take the biggest cut of profits. Jaffe wants to give publishers a cut of GameStop's profits? Well Jaffe, listen up because publishers aren't developers! Why give more money to people who distribute your game instead of the people who actually make the game? EA (usually the publisher) doesn't need any more money jackass! The developers (usually smaller studios) are the ones who need the extra money.

Jaffe basically telling someone to f*&k off and not buy is product just shows his egomanicial personality. Sure you can develop awesome games, but you don't have to be a jerk and get a big head over it. Look at Cliffy B for christ's sake. Ego-maniac!

*EDIT*
again, the phantom disagrees. I'm going to create a new account and nobody will ever know. Quit being jerks. If you disagree, at least give a reason and quit being bastards about it. I don't care if you don't like me, but personal issues isn't a reason to disagree

[socomnick]

Jaffe fails at developing games too lol so he has to keep his mouth open spewing crap just to remain relevant. He should try molestation it worked well for Michael Jackson and it prolonged his fame for nearly 15 years. Calling all cars lol pos game.

[LordMarius]

Good thing we have a smart man like Jaffe making games for the PS3 ONLY and not Jabba the Hut(Gabe Newell)

[marcindpol]

i rent most of the games, are you happy with that?, i certainly am:)

[JonnyBigBoss]

I like Jaffe. He's a fun guy but I don't like the way he showed himself in this argument. He should never tell someone not to buy his game. Either way, I buy used games 60% of the time only because $60 is just too much for me in most cases.

[ElementX]

I agree with you 100%. He shouldn't tell people not to buy his games. It just shows that he has an ego problem. He thinks that one person won't make a difference to his game's sales, but if everyone read his rant and disagreed with it, maybe he'd lose more sales.

BTW I'm sorry I ranted about PSLS. I was just in a funk and had to let it out. Sure the PSLS guys talk sh!t about MS, I don't even know why I care, I don't own a 360, but I was just pissed because it seems like this site is full of PS3 fanboys. I wanted to let off some steam and I apologize. I hope you will forgive me.

[sunil]

one person can NEVER change anything...

[Xbox360Elite]

Like as if his wallet isn't fat enough he want more to stuff his fat FACE.

[ZOMBIEMAN1]

compared to Gabe , David looks like a twig but i find it ironic really that your complaining about him saying developers should get a cut of used game sales will you pay a monthly subscription to XBL while PC , PS3 & Wii owners play online for free , the irony .
P.S don't talk about how good XBL is because really i don't give a sh!t about online gaming

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

He's not really that rich...at all.

I'm betting your parents probably make more.

You know, game developers really don't make that much money. It's the same with the music industry. Unless your band has a few number one's...you're going nowhere.

The same goes for gaming. Unless you sell significantly more titles than everyone else...you're stuck.

Blizzard is sitting pretty. Everyone else...well...

[kickaski]

Other industries do what Jaffe is suggesting, so why not our industry?

The stupid retailers shouldn't be making the vast majority of all the used games market revenue anyway

[jack who]

this man is a mans man

[Solid_Snake]

he was saying the DD is the future; if GameStop doesn't want to get cut out, they better embrace is sooner than later, because Dev's are losing money on used games being sold. So Dev's are going to push for DD and not care if GameStop loses.

[tonsoffun]

But unfortunately, the still need retail to sell the consoles.

If say gamestop decides to drop, say the PS3, due to it's policy of putting digital distribution first, then the console will not sell as much.

There needs to be a compromise as I don't think either could survive without each other. I don't agree that the Publishers, after all that's who gets the most money from sales of games and as such will get revenue from used sales....

[OpenGL]

I only by used games if it is something that is out of production and can no longer be found new. When that is the case I usually go to my local independent game store that carries new and retro games/systems, as well as ebay.

While the guys at my local Gamestop are actually pretty cool, I still make sure to only purchase new, sealed games when I go there. I'd rather give the extra money to Naughty Dog, Bungie, Rockstar, etc than Gamestop.

[cheapndirty]

I buy used here and there. But ever since I joined www.cheapassgamer.com I have been able to find new games for 10-20.00 a piece. You have to check that site 3 times a day. Another thing thats cool about that site is no fanboy wars. Just talk about games and good deals on games.

[BWS1982]

and my own due diligence in shopping, deals can be had for less than $60....take the ECA discount for example, that alone guarantees I pay at most 90% of what retailers are asking, if not less because Amazon has good deals. Plus I don't pay tax there either, another bonus. I rarely buy used...

Think about it, Jaffe, a game will hold more demand if it's great, people won't consider getting it used because "it's that good" and they want it in good condition, look at the pre-order business...booming. Plus used games tend to be nasty, that has to be said. Look at the abundance of comments from gamers who are getting Modern Warfare 2 used because Bobby Kotick is too arrogant to get their money, you don't want that effect or reputation. The opposite holds true, how many times have we seen people say they'll gladly pay full price day-one for Uncharted 2 or Gran Turismo or Mass Effect 2...again, these games have garnered these effects. They've reaped what has been sown.

And that's why crap games plummet into the bargain bin ten-fold the speed of a AAA game with a whole lotta replay value and quality. God of War has that latter effect, so Jaffe shouldn't be worried, it's high caliber. It's basically survival of the fittest in this industry, the good/popular games will have more new sales and have less frequency of being traded in, and thus, less used sales over their lifetime because the used supply is hampered as a result. Everyone will want to keep their copy. It's a logical effect. We know this because usually the games highest in stock at Gamestop are often of less quality or low replay value, the games piling up in clearance bins, same thing.

I hate to admit this, but I lost a little respect for Jaffe, not because of what he said - he's entitled to fight for his industry's interests and have an opinion- but because of how he said it.

[Gun_Senshi]

Of cours eI buy used when its not a high profile game.

[jack who]

its not a matter of buying used games what his saying is atleast give a cut of it to the dev/pub

[Double Toasted]

is barking up the wrong tree. Gamers are hooked, so if he thinks himself or others with their little petitions is going to affect sales of games he is delusional. I think one of the reason games are priced high is because of what Gamestop does. Drop the prices of games at the same time Gamestop and the like need to cut publishers in on the resell gain everyone is happy...greed will be short lived. BTW, I just bought INFAMOUS brand new a few minutes ago...

[Kushan]

This guy is an idiot. He may make good games, but clearly he doesn't understand how things outside that work - people don't have an unlimited supply of money. The vast majority of people who DO have money to spend on games don't have a lot of money.
So if two games come out they want and they can only afford the RRP of one of them, they're going to want to find a cheaper way to get them. 2 used sales might just make that happen.

I'm sorry you, as a developer, don't get any of that sale, David, but perhaps that's an indication that maybe Game prices are too high? Go talk to your publisher, ask how much money they get from each $60 sale - I assure you, it's probably more than you're getting, probably more than the store is getting as well.
Why is it that used sales only hurt those in the gaming industry? What about the film industry? There's a thriving market in used DVD sales, but its nowhere near as big as used game sales. Notice that? DVDs aren't as expensive so people buy more of them. Since the price gap between a new DVD and a used DVD is not that large, people just tend to go for the new one. Think about that.

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

I've been getting his Twitter updates for about a year now.

His latest stuff has been saying that Gamestop needs to strike a deal with companies like Sony and MS so that digital distribution doesn't put them out of business.

Jaffe buys used too, you moron.

I don't think you actually looked into this argument.

Jaffe thinks a balance needs to be struck by the developer and used games stores...like used car lots.

By the way, what makes 60 dollars too much? Seriously. I make around 500 every two weeks just working at McDonald's. You're going to tell me that 60 of that is going to bankrupt me? Seriously? I go to school full-time too. It's not a big deal.

How many AAA games come out every two weeks anyway?

I buy anywhere from 5-10 games a year. Some of them I buy used. If I bought them all new, that'd still only be around 660 bucks (tax included) a year. (If I bought ten.) That's just slightly more than one paycheck.

I'm sorry if you're poor, man. I think people need to get better jobs if they can't afford these games.

Or...

Try this.

BUY LESS GAMES!!!

[Nexy]

Jaffe does not understand one thing - without being able to sell a game any gamer would about 10 times more careful about any new purchase. People would simply be afraid of getting a game they won't like.

[FantasyStar]

Exactly, by reducing the price without reducing the content in the game: gamers are more likely to take chances with "iffy" games. I know I won't drop $60 on a game unless I've done my homework because I don't get refunds if the game sucks. However if a game was sold new at $30-$45, I would be more inclined to take chances. For some people $60 is grocery money for 2-3 weeks while a video game that sucks only lasts for 2 days. At least with grocery money, the consumer never loses.

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

Jaffe supports used game sales.

Seriously.

Also, yes...you can lose. I bought diet Mt. Dew on accident the other day. EPIC LOSS!!! That stuff sucks!

Why wouldn't you do your research if you're spending 60 bucks on a game?

We have video/game rental stores too. What's wrong with dropping 3 bucks to try a game out for a night and then buying it at Gamestop the next day for 60?

How intelligent are you people, really? I'm beginning to question humanity as a whole.

[BX81]

Hmm... I don't know D.J. personally but if I had to make a assumption about him just based off of this, then I would go with biatch. Sorry I gotta go! I have a friend coming over to play God of War, he doesn't own it. I gotta charge him for playing it and send it to D.J.

[gamingisnotacrime]

He was talking about putting a time restriction for a game from the date it was released to the date it was ok to sell it used (he compare it to the movies and the timeline from theater to rental)

Devs take the hit, specially the ones that try out new IPs

[Kushan]

The problem is that there's absolutely no way to enforce that. The best publishers could do is make stores agree to it or not get any of their games, but then you'll just get dedicated second-hand stores opening up to fill that gap.

[gamingisnotacrime]

Is just that no one has look into it, maybe it wont work because GStop is as greedy as it gets

[Kushan]

Gamestop are no greedier than any other business out there (including game publishers). They've identified a gap in the market, a service people want and are simply providing it.

[Nihilism]

Alot of new game sales come from traded in games ( which have already been paid for), so how about instead of saying that a used game purchase is a loss of a new game purchase, they say a trade in means 1 more new game sale ( as they use the trade in money for the new game), seriously these gaming industry people are worse than the music industry people. No other industry would dare claim that they have a right to a portion of the sales of YOUR possessions.

[FantasyStar]

I really did think the guy "Les" was being an ass the way he uses his "bigboy" words. It felt condescending such as a "holier than thou" attitude. I personally would've done it the conversation differently than he would. Although Jaffe isn't entirely justified to swear like that pre-conditionally. Jaffe should've held back a bit.

[Nihilism]

how else was he supposed to have a discussion with jaffe who had a "your a pissant and i have so much money i don't care if you buy my games"( yet somehow he still needs more money from gamestop, can you spell hypocrite jaffe?) tone to all his comments, the guy les spoke truth, there is no reason why the gaming industry should get money from second hand sales

jaffes main argument was that people should be able to sell games privately and the publishers not get money ( not like they have a say anyway), but he thinks that sales done through a store like gamestop should give a cut to them, and les used the argument of car dealerships, which is: despite what jaffe says EXACTLY THE SAME, a product which has been paid for being re-sold through a buisness...and the manufacturers not getting a cut,

Jaffe's sense of entitlement is ridiculous, there are a million other examples, if i sell a cd for example...

arguing with people like jaffe about the issue of the re-selling of your own property is like arguing with a wall

If you agree with jaffe and think they publishers/developers should get a cut, then your voting for higher used game prices..which would result in the death of second hand game sales ( the price difference no longer justifying the purchase of second hand), and that's exactly what they want, F em.

[FantasyStar]

I would like to think that us adults at the very core have the basic principles of having a proper discussion. If you talk to Jaffe as if he was a "pissant": guesses are that he'll respond back not so nicely. I think we should all treat each other with respect when engaging in discussion. If the conversation spirals out of control because one side can't maturely discuss, then at least you tried to be nice at first and that's what really matters. Walking into a discussion with pre-conceived bigotry isn't going to win you points.

That said, I'm actually against everything what Jaffe said. I support the used game market and am against DD somewhat. I always hold the core belief that if developers' game don't suck, then people will buy it new. If the game isn't expensive, then people will take more chances buying it new. Developers and publishers just don't get what makes a good game worth purchasing, so they whine as if they're victims when the real victims are the gamers that paid $60 for only 5-7 hours worth of content with little incentive to replay it.

Why do you have 2 bubbles? You deserve better. +1

[Run_bare]

There is nothing wrong with selling your games or buying used. I bought 2 of them in the last 3 years (2 out of 18). The reason is the same reason as him, i am not sure if the game is good or not.

It is our prerogative as a consumer to do so. I don't want to be dictated by publisher/developers. But i do appreciate and value them. For me it's not about the money, more like assurances if the game is good or not (only i can decide, not review).

[-Mezzo-]

I Love This Guy,(Not like A Gay). why because he is the only person in the industry who interacts with the people who really matters *Gamers*, and does not cares about anything and speaks his mind openly.

And is a wise man as well, how do i know he crates Exclusively for PS3.

[OGharryjoysticks]

Gamers don't like the high price of games.

Used game buy back helps gamers pay those high prices for new/newer games.

You want to eliminate the used market?

Drop prices so low there wouldn't be a point in a used market and make a law against it if it did happen like movies and movie tickets.

[PotNoodle]

Jaffe is right, this guy is a total clown. I don't buy used games.

[SgtBlake]

He never said that consumers shouldnt buy used games he say that places like GameStop should cut the devs and publishers in on what they make. Now I hate how all of a sudden Jaffe is an asshole to you people because he has a passion for his business and wants to keep it healthy in this economic sh!t storm. And more over I'd like to point out how badly places like GameStop screw over the consumers. You buy a game full price attempt to sell it back and get less than half of what you paid for it, then they turn around and sell it for a few bucks under its original cost, all the while making all the profit and not giving anything back to the people that made the game. It's damn near robbery.

[freddy99]

i had never traded a game. but than gamestop had a deal where could trade 2 games and get one free if u preordered. so i traded some poor games (or old) like fifa 08, madden 08. traded 8 games and got preorders on uncharted 2, brutal legend, assassins creed 2 and dragon age: origins. a great deal to me, cos i live in norway and games here are 70-80$ a piece.

[Father Murder X]

I wonder if Jaffe is getting some p*ssy. He looks like a child molester!! LOL

He keeps talking all this crap but outside of the piss poor calling all cars what exactly has he done in recent years? For a guy that hasn't had a real game in several years he needs to shut the hell up. Twisted Metal and God OF War was last generation. He maybe King of the Fanboys!!

[die_fiend]

True - he's pretty much made one special game and that's it yet he spends hours on the internet acting like his opinion actually matters to anyone. He's clearly not getting any, that why he gets so angry all the time. I don't usually buy used games cos I normally want them the day they come out but from now on if he EVER makes a decent game again, I'm buying it used and trading it in when I'm done - he doesn't deserve any of my money. He does deserve a slap tho.

[ZOMBIEMAN1]

i agree with jaffe i never buy used games all my games are brand new never been open except for UT3 because that was a gift from someone who didn't want it anymore i buy brand new games because of that never been open smell in the case and being the one to remove the plastic rap it's like buying a brand new car and having the brand new car smell and being the first to drive it . i say give em a cut

[oneinall141]

ok look at what u just sid k so u owe hem maney give em a cut u did not pay for it u got it free so he losing money on u ??

[ZOMBIEMAN1]

obviously you don't know the difference between buying a used game and getting a used game as a gift if i had purchased it than i would be contradicting myself and by the logic would give EPIC & Midway a cut but i didn't give any money ( thank god because the game sucks ) so i don't have to give EPIC & Midway a cut because money wasn't transferred . i recommend you take logic lessons

[thehitman]

I only bought stuff there if it was the nearest gamestore.... I always found better deals else where for my gaming needs. Also they rip you off on your items you want to sell. I be better off just asking my friend if he wanna buy my game for 5-10 dollars then some useless store credit. But @ jaffe getting money off used sales is kinda dumb devs already got their money they dont put the effort into buying games back and restocking them to sell etc if anything they should be happy their games get spread around and not just collect dust in someones room.

[Cwell]

I grow tried of these publishers and gamers whining about GameStop it is their own fault GameStop is making it big. First should they have to give a cut to the Publishers NO, Ford, Lincoln, Honda, don't get a cut from Henry's father and Son dealers. People complaining about the buy back value don't sell your game to them I when I brought $50 game before Funcoland I was just stuck with it period now if I don't like it I get 1/2 or 1/3 back sounds fair to me.The Publisher are helping GameStop become this Giant because ............

1.Game that aren't that good ( no names you know what they are )
2.$60 bucks for game ( PS3 & 360 )especially when referring back to number 1
3.Yearly installments many games do not need them ( again $60 bucks )
4.DLC is pre-decided before the game hits the shelf this is added on to the $60 they are purposely denying you and going to charge you later this should be criminal ( especially when dealing with yearly installed games )

I hate what the music industry did I hope gamestop doesn't have to change anything Publisher please you should never used the words Not Fair ever
Not all publisher are screwing over the gamers Jaffe i have respect for but some of the other they should be on trial for their acts

[Chevalier]

"Wow after the total disrespect jaffe show for his fans and the his customers I lost all respect for this guy. I think I just buy God of war 3 use of ebay so he cant have a dime of my money then I'll resell it "

He's not even involved with God of War 3 so why would you be punishing him?

[Iceman100]

Greedy bastards it's used they don't deserve anything that has nothing to do with the sales they get anyway witch is a ripoff anyway.

[Kamikaze8]

Well its true. Developers and publishers do all the hard work, and GameStop just scraps off of the industry. All they do is buy and resell. Seems a lot easier.

[Magna Farta]

I seriously try not to sell my games, but truth be told once I pay my $60 or so for a new game it becomes MINE! To do with as I please.

One thing devs seem to forget is that every used game was at one point a new game, and every used game is in fact a SOLD New game.

As for Jaffe, I'd like to think he's above getting into futile arguments with people whose entire reputations and social lives lie within the internet of all god-awful places, but then again I remember he's David jaffe, and I just let it be.

Not to mention, and I include myself here, that a LOT of games that are used purchases would either never be purchased at new prices or would end up being rentals....I think devs also forgot rentals as well, which have been around since NES days, surprised they never whined about getting a cut out of rental fees. Play 5 bucks to beat a game and never touch it again, all the while the rental store potentially sucks up hundreds of dollars in rental profits for one purchased game.

[PREREQUiSiTE]

Blog site but he has good points. Love his ending statement lol: PLAYSTATIONBLOG.NET its the article starting at the top of the page

[Karum]

Going to have to agree with Jaffe here. I don't buy used games. I do sometimes trade games in when I know I'm done with them and will never play it again because new games are expensive but I always always always pick up a new copy of it and 99% of the time I do pay full price rather than only part because of a trade in.

People need to remember he's not saying you shouldn't buy used games, he isn't saying you shouldn't trade games in and he isn't even saying retailers shouldn't sell used games.

All he's really saying is that he'd like to see something done where devs and publishers are rewarded monetarily for their work from used game sales. And you know what I agree with him, I always buy new in order to support the devs that make the games I like and want to play, the argument of buying used because you're not sure if you'll like it or not is total BS. That's what rentals are for if a demo isn't available.

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

How can you guys support that c0cksucker that's talking to Jaffe like that?

Jaffe's right. He's RIGHT!

Developers need money just like the rest of us.

If someone came to your work and said "Yeah...we're going to take the product you made...the one you have spent tireless hours of your life making...and sell it for cheaper than you are...and you're not making a cent from it."...you'd slit their throats. I would, at least.

As far as I'm concerned, you all deserve death for being as inconciderate as you're being.

Kick me off this fricking forum.

I'm done with you people.

It's been a good 4 years, but my God.

If I'm going down, I'm going down defending a man whose done more for gaming than any of you ever will.

[taliesin]

once i have purchased a game, it is mine, full stop. From that point on i am free to do with it as i choose. I always try to purchase my games new but i hate how much games cost these days so i tend to use patience and wait for a couple of months when i can usually pick up a game new for £20+ less than the original price. However, once i am done with that game i will trade it in as that saves me even more money.
I fully agree that the developer needs supporting however, when you have companies such as activision deliberately putting the price of their games up knowing they will sell regardless e.g CoD....while at the same time critisising the second hand games market, well i start to lose alot of sympathy

[xplosneer]

Interesting argument. I agree with Jaffe in that Gamestop is taking a pretty big cut and they should get a piece of that. These aren't like cars, and the ridiculous amount of time they have to put into games these days should be repaid.

On the other hand, games should be priced at least $10 less than they are now. Less priced originally=less incentive to buy used. Really, that isn't rocket science.

I also believe that we should see some more independent retailers, like the music industry. If there are more distributors, and the smaller ones take less of a cut, then people should move to them and then Sony, Microsoft, EA, Ativision, etc will have to lower their prices and developers will get a better cut.

[Thatlalala]

Been saying this for years. Different games need different prcies. The default price for all new games is ridiculous. Of Course Ill pay 60$ For the Metal Gears, Halo's, and GTA's. But I will not pay 60$ for a new copy of "Pimp my Ride" lower quality games need a lower pirce, its the only way to get the consumer to buy it, other than a used copy from Gstop.

[stuntman_mike]

i thought les had a good point, jaffe came off sounding like a big c.u.n.t!

if the devs have thier way it will be a hitler regime "you may buy our game but we still own the rights and you cant sell it without our say so or else"

someone should go round jaffes house with the biggest sound system ever and blast "killing in the name of" thru his windows.

[lizard81288]

Jaffe came off as a little rude saying fu@k you to a customer, bad business practice.

even though Jaffe was talking about his CO, the gaming industry makes more than Hollywood! IIRC so i think they'll be ok if people are buying used games, sure some business might go under, but they should have made a better game in the 1st place, right?

and if he was really concerned about this, wouldn't he just use download only, digital copy? he develops for sony only right? and the ps3 has alot of space.

while he's at it, why doesn't he go after ebay, and other used sites, or even amazon? amazon sells used games too. i see no problem with trading stuff in, most people are wherry of buying used items, so of-course they are going to have price cuts. also IIRC, gamestop gives you points too for trading in old games, so you can make "money" off of trading in old games. i myself have bought used games from GS, HOWEVER 90% of the time they didn't work, disk reading errors. so i ended up just buying them new anyways. and now i probably won't buy used games anymore.

[Stoney22]

"David Jaffe is talking software here. Not cars or consoles. Software. This is not the same." It pritty much is the same since that software comes on a physical disk. To draw from a better anagogy would be movies and (until recently) music. Both of these used sales have worked in a similar way to the used car industry.
"If they don't play ball with the publishers DD will take over" No it won't. The music industry went into DD "kicking and screaming" to quote the article. PEOPLE pushed for DD so the music industry had to provide or face a lot more issues such as piracy.
"is not a threat, but a fact." no it isn't it's something you've assumed/asserted.
"Used game sales are taking a pretty large chunk out of publishers potential profits." Yet you provide no evidence to back this up. While this is by means no evidence either me and most people i know only buy used when it was a game we wern't going to buy anyway, but because it has a reduced price tag and the RRP is still £40 we pick it up.

Unless you live in somewhere like Seoul DD just isn't an option. Most broadband speeds simply aren't fast enough for HD games or movies. For a guy to say "give us a cut or we go all DD on your ass" is to say "give us a cut or were going broke" right now.

[Xi]

Will developers charge retailers less when they make a game and it fails to sell, forcing retailers to cut prices?

If developers and publishers really want to cut down on the reselling of their games then they should:
1. lower the price of the games so that people have less need to purchase cheaper used games.
2. ensure product quality and longevity so that owners don't feel the need to re-sell a game once they're completed it, or if they're dissatisfied with it.
3. lower the profit margins on their games so that retailers don't have to rely on the sales of used games to stay in business.
4. provide incentive to hold onto a game via DLC, and to recoup lost profits via well made dlc.

gaffe needs to stfu, it's my game, if I want to sell it after I finish it I have every right, and if I want to buy a cheaper used game then I have every right to do that too.

[Nate Tolar]

the only reason people are always trading in games is because they're so expensive. I mean you trade in a game you'll get like 20 bucks. What do you get for a CD? lol or a movie? If I dont play it, and Im tired of it Im gonna trade it in for somethin else. A few dollars is worth more to me than a game just sitting and collecting dust ya know..

And as for digital distribution Im all for it. As long as its a choice, like netflix you can get the physical media or download. I also think it should be cheaper than physical media since we cant trade it in nor does anyone have to touch it between me and the server I download it from. That means no shipping, no packaging, no stocking NOTHING! so I mean a game comes out three days earlier and is available like STEAM or DIRECT2DRIVE I would consider ONLY if it was 15 or so bucks cheaper (which is the money I would make down the road later when I trade it in for a new title)

[Nate Tolar]

and if you dont like gamestop makin all this money

A) make better games so no one wants to trade them in.

B) Open up your own retail chain and give 10% of your profits to the game developers...ha yea right

O and do you know how long and how difficult it would be to figure out how much to give to each individual developer for their used game sales LOL.