Valve on Project Natal: Show us the compelling game first

Destructoid writes.... Following our interview with Left 4 Dead 2 writer Chet Faliszek, we had a chance to just talk about the industry at large, and touch upon a few interesting points. You already got to read about Chet's views on morality in videogames, and Doug Lombardi's take on used sales. Chet also shared his views on the industry's push toward motion control, Microsoft's Project Natal in particular

[KingKionic]

Valve is right .

Natal fails...

[Trollimite]

i dont see how you can play a "good" fps, there is no controller and as far as we know natal cant track eye movements. it sounds awesome for a rail shooter like house of the dead, but a game like cod4 will be near impossible to look left, right, up and down. without a controller of some sort

p.s. i love the smell of phantom disagrees in the morning!

[coolirisGB]

Lol fail? Not pratical? Natal does what any other motion divice does and more plus better. Don't worry valve it's not going to steal the market from you don't have to change your ways.

[ChampIDC]

I'm still not sure if it'll provide any amazingly deep experiences, but I can't deny it looks fun to mess around with. Heck, I may be surprised, though.

[ShabzS]

@ kionic: sarcasm ? o_0

natal has promise but skeptiscism is understandable ... even from valve

Edit@ below: nah i think he's still pissed about sc conviction delay... lol.. damn ubi

[coolirisGB]

I'm not sure I think it's sarcasm now that I think about it. Never the less the

[Pistolero]

How does Natal fail?...it isn't even out yet. I agree with coolirisGB that at the very least Natal does everything any other motion controller does...plus more...so I think it has tremendous potential. Like any new hardware technology it is going to be up to developers to come up with creative uses for it.

[Trollimite]

can you please explain how one could play a game like cod4 using natal? please? i relly wnt to know!

[ShabzS]

read 4.6

gamespot had a discussion about natal and shooters .... more like natal and rpg shooters ...

@below: haha .. i think there will be a little more usage then just "look left" .... again with mass effect 3... i dont see the motion tracker playing a heavy role in shooters ... you will not control the guy or his actions ... it cant work ... but the voice recognition and face tracker will... even molinuex said that natal with controllers will open up for new ideas ... but i'm sure actual professional game devs will have more ideas on the voice tech

[Trollimite]

so want to yell "LOOK LEFT" every time you want to look to your left? that sounds a little impractical. how will you look to youe left in mass effect 3? i understand the punching part!

[coolirisGB]

Who mentioned COD? did I say all games for Natal will be full motion? Microsoft has already said their will be new peripherals for the 360. http://www.oxm.co.uk/articl...

LOL. You really think Microsoft would not think of the current motion market when designing Natal? Why do PS3 fans try to make it seem like all Natal can do is track 48 points. It can be told to do anything from tracking objects and several people in full body to tracking single fingers.

EDIT.
@11.1
A plastic gun with a trigger and a pad with a joystick won't break your wallet.

Q: What about multiplayer games? How does that work? On the demos it seemed like you use voice commands to lock in a particular player.

A: We actually do a full skeletal mapping for more than one person in the scene.

Q: How many people do you map and how many can play at once?

A: It depends on fidelity and other things that you want to bring into the equation -- how many points. We feel we're going to be at the pont where we can have full-room fun experiences. It's not one person, one person's skeleton, one person's voice. We're going to have full skeletal mapping for multiple people in the room.

It's going to be fun. Because we can map your skeleton, we'll know where you are.

Q: Do players have to be in the same plane to be "seen" by the device? What if one is standing behind the other?

A: There's a lot of magic in the technology. Think -- we know what a skeleton looks like. Once we map to you, even if we lose you for a certain amount of time, we can interpolate where you are. It works very well, it's very impressive.

The software and what it's able to track and the interpolation that's able to happen are really where the magic happens. That's why I say it's really about the research that went in to develop the technology we have today.

Q: Is it going to be limited to non-graphics intensive games? I imagine there's a tax on the processor to do this stuff.

A: You will see full resolution games. The paint game and the ball game [demos] were done with the Unreal engine, the same engine "Gears of War" uses.

You will see full resolution games [but] you can imagine that in the beginning we're focused on the experience.

Q: Sony said its research found that you need the precision of a physical trigger for first-person shooting games. Is there enough precision in the skeletal mapping to precisely track the motion of a fingertip, for shooting-type games?

A: We have investigated all the game types that are important to our customers and we feel confident there are solutions there. So, yes, we've thought how you navigate, we've thought about how you might shoot, you might drive. You can go through the list of what people do with games today. http://seattletimes.nwsourc...

This fake video gives some ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[Trollimite]

all im saying is that microsoft doesnt have a good history pricing accesories, and if that article is right we should be prepared to get nickled and dimed!

EDIT.
isnt the whole stance of natal to be a world of gaming without controllers

also are you agreeing with sony that "you do need buttons to do some things" "real" games will not funtion without controllers

check mate!

EDIT AGAIN.
notice how they evaded the fps question, they gave no deffinte answer. can somene just tell me how i can play cod4 with natal???

EDIT YET AGAIN.
that was the fakest thing ive ever seen in my life! oblivian has way to many controls for it to be that simple. lol

[Jinxstar]

My problem is that this isn't new technology it's just marketed as such. I hope they come up with good innovative games and not Wii knockoff's... however i feel hardcore games wont see the light of motion control for a long time still. Until you have a room that moves and morphs with you i.e. A danger room(ala X-men) motion controls wont do much for you...I mean if Sony puts 2 joysticks on their controllers to move character and move your eyes(Same way COD or Halo is now) then lets you aim at the screen with the controllers it might work... I still feel I'll prefer a normal pad though myself. I can't see how natal could do this. It can do things you can play burnout paradise but it's simple on off(Foot up or down)... Whatever Ima get a million disagrees. Almost makes me want to not post a simple opinion anymore. I hope they get it right and this is not a knock on MS it's a knock on motion controls. They are a gimmick and wont be viable for a long time yet. Ricochet looks like a lot of fun but... To me everything is worth a price. i.e. a movie ticket is about 10 dollars for a 2 hour good time. If ricochet is 40$ or 20$ and natal is 100 dollars I hope to get my moneys worth... otherwise it's just not worth it to me. I have yet to see anything else that appeals to me and ricochet looks like it would be fun to play for an hour. Get some gamerpoints and play on occasion when friends come by for 20 minutes... Please send me all the hate you want. I dont care. Motion control is lame casual junk and natal and the PS motion controller is lame. Very few games on the Wii are worth playing and even those waggle controls get really old to me.

@ Jokes. I thought the whole point of natal was "Controllerless gaming" like that was the real push for the "New interface" and "Not having this device being a barrier between you and your game"... They said that a whole lot at E3. The fact that the Controller was in itself a hinderance(Or thats what they sounded like) and how excited peter monoluex(Spelling) was to create games without controllers. It feels like they nearly shunned controllers bro. Now from what you say it sounds just like what sony demo'd at E3... Not that I disagree. In fact I do agree that would be VERY cool. Very exciting but seriously I know they said it a lot at the conference and I don't feel like going back over it all but I will and find some quotes if you like.

Dave said " People ask me can you add a motion controller? I tell them of course we can.Indeed controllers will continue to evolve as we have seen with guitars wands and nunchucks... Here's the problem . For far to many people the controller is a barrier separating video game players from everyone else." then he rants for a second and wsays" Can we go beyond the controller and offer entertainment that everyone can instantly enjoy? Can we make YOU the controller?... We can" Then they show the commercial. There are some more Gems of quotes like "The only experience you need is life experience" "This is controller free games and entertainment" Speilberg said "The vast majority of people are uncomfortable playing games with a controller"

Look all I am getting is disagrees. Look people. Think what you want. Be ignorant all you want. I don't care.

[JokesOnYou]

"There's a lot of coolness around it, but I'm not sure about the game that comes with that, and I'm not sure, personally, how much I wanna move around. I'm a lazy, lazy man. I don't want to move. I don't want to be fatigued playing a game."

-You see thats just the point, Natal's level of implementation will be based on the game itself, they have said a hundred times there will be games that are full body motion control and games that use both standard controllers and Natal together to offer new experiences. Its not hard with a little imagination to think about how a FPS can be done with NO CONTROLLER at all, and none of it requires the player "moving around" so much that you would be "fatigued"= BUT, I can understand devs not wanting to alienate hardcore shooter fans who would just refuse to play without a controller, I'm not even sure myself how that experience would "feel", so I think using both would work fine as long as the actions and controls are "intuitive"= makes sense for the game play.

I'm not looking to play wii-type shovelware games in HD, if so then count me NOT interested in Natal, but if they can make games like Halo, Mass Effect, L4D, Fable, Modern Warfare, Gears, Bioshock, etc better by ADDING to the depth of gameplay with "verbal commands", "throwing grenades", "interacting with on screen touch panels", "reloading magazines", "directing squad memebers to move" etc, etc...then I think that would be kickass fun....this tech CAN allow such gameplay options so to suggest that EVERY GAME will be some "Ricochet" workout themed game is very SHORT SIGHTED. Micro's anything but stupid, they know they have to offer an experience thats beyond what wii does, or else it will be just branded as "wii-shovelware in HD", I mean if not why all the trouble(R&D) into this tech just to offer a wii-level experience, micro/devs are already working these kinds of things now, its going to happen, sure there will be some shovel-ware, that just goes with launching anything different/new and shovelware exists on every platform, albeit some more than others....but there's going to be some great stuff too and when they release the "goods", I'll be kind enough to remind the naysayers that they said it wasn't possible, "its fail", "it won't work", blah, blah, blah. lol

JOY

[Blaster_Master]

Um just wondering. What exactly does it do better then other motion controllers?

[el zorro]

First of all, it tracks in 3 dimensional space, not just 2 planes. Not to mention advanced voice and face recognition. It really is on a whole new level.

[JokesOnYou]

See again I don't get your thinking....Its like you're in a paper box and refuse to come out and play, maybe its the wii's fault. lol, YES they hyped the "controller-less" ability of Natal because that is what makes it stand out from the other "motion controls". It's like advertising a specific feature that your new tech brings to the table, which does not mean you have write off incorporating your tech with existing tech/controls.

Its NOT ALL OR NOTHING, a show is designed to highlight key differences and strengths thats all. Its like Toyota at a car show talking about their new "revolutionary driver assist" technology where the car sensors will brake for you if you too close, in relation to speed/distance, and warn you off steep terrain, switch to low gears for you etc...are there going to abandon manual controls= NO this new tech ADDS to the drivers ability...but their job is to highlight whats "NEW" about their tech.

JOY

edit: vvvvv Jinxstar

"We'll have games that are specifically designed to work only with Natal - not just arcadey games, but real, hardcore, triple-A titles.Then you'll have some games that are essentially a hybrid - games that work both with the controller and with Natal. Why is that interesting? Think about a first-person shooter where I'm using the controller but I'm doing facial tracking by just moving around and looking round corners."

"Or you could have a hardcore gamer like me playing a game with a controller, while a non-hardcore person sitting next to me enjoys the experience by playing with Natal. I could be having my Halo experience with the controller and the friend next to me, who's not a hardcore gamer, could be throwing grenades or driving the Warthog or doing any number of things with Natal."
-Alex Kipman, project director of Microsoft's new innovation, Project Natal
http://www.neowin.net/news/...

-So again same response, but now are you just trying to bash Natal with all the it was done on ps2 talk or are you sticking with your claim that its only suppose to be "controller-less". Either way you don't have much to go on the "Project Director" himself has explain their veiw of how Natal will be implemented and we both know Natal has some more diverse tech/capabilities than the Eye toy or whatever on the ps2. lol

JOY

[Jinxstar]

Jokes

More quotes.

"it's not about reinventing the wheel it's about no wheel at all"

Kudo said these

"We wanted to build experiences that no matter what your age or gaming ability your could instantly jump in and have fun"

"I can go anywhere in the menu no controller required"

Peter molyneux

"That thing in our hands. That thing thats evolved and gotten more and more complex actually has been the biggest barrier to what we want to create"

Then he talks about water swooshing and how "It makes peoples hair stand up".... Aquatopia. A 2 dollar PS3 screen saver did this long before natal. I'm not touting how "Great the PS3 is" all I am saying is they are marketing it as something new when most of the stuff you can do on it was done on the PS2 or even earlier on the PC...

Lionheads demo was a joke anyway with the "Behind closed doors" demo that had a guy controlling milo behind the curtain ala Wizard of oz.

Here is a PS2 game. Watch this and tell me that natal is new Tech.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

The only real upgrade it has is voice recognition and my iphone does that.

I dont see whats new. The idea of taking your hand from your controller while playing a Socom type game and making signs for "Rally, move, Slow, Halt, 2 forward, Valley, File, Fan out" would be cool but there are games like C&C that let you do it with voice already bro... It is an RTS and works well for that... I may be living in a paper box like you say but give me a definitive on what is "new" or "different" because so far all I see is old technology being shown as new... Nothing great about it. Kudo demo'd how well it recognizes your avatar and in essence his avatar was all inside out(I'm sure you've seen the vids) so really so far all I have seen is that one video that was produced professionally but in reality I think it will be much more like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

I just can't see it being useful. How could it make COD a better game? All you really need to do is add voice command with the headset issued to you with every 360 to add squad commands or otherwise... Painting and ricochet just look... Like Wii games man... no one yet can give me a definitive "This is different because" or "this is better because" Zorro says it tracks in 3d. thats cool but how are you gonna play gears. You gonna duck behind your couch and walk around your room as if it was every room in the game and the couch used for every piece of cover int he game.... I would rather use a controller and like I said above add voice commands if you really want that kind of interaction. Look at the environments everyone has used so far. The camera needs to be able to see your whole body. My living room is pretty small and I don't want to reorganize it so a camera can see my full body on screen. on stage or on jimmy faolin (Spelling) they have a ton of space... Space most people dont have... There is just to many problems I see. There is no way I could even play ricochet. My neighbors downstairs would come knocking and telling me to knock it off... Especially when I break it out at 2 in the morning drunk with my buddies... Space, noise, Inconvenience all for the meager price of a lot of money for casual games... I may be in a paper box but i feel it's more realistic. i feel the same about the PS3's motion but I still feel it and the wii are more practicle if thats what your into...

Edit: All I am saying jokes is that MS is marketing this in so many different ways. Is it hardcore or casual? What is it and how exactly with SPECIFIC details is it going to make my experience better. When voice wont work. Will it need me to track my whole body? Can I play sitting down? I wont lie maybe it's lazy(Even though I'm a pretty fit guy) I play games to unwind and relax not to run around my living room... The halo example is kinda... A 2 player single player game? Really? That just doesn't sound fun to me... Do you think your non hardcore gamer friend would want to do that? or play Ricochet? They say there are AAA titles. I would say the same thing if I had a stake in a company... I'm sorry but I just have very little faith in any of it and that is what I am saying. I am simply saying all the motion control PR spin is junk and MS and Sony are trying too little too late to jump on the wii train with their own spin... There is too much mixed news and ideas and just straight up PR BS with regards to all the motion control crap and truthfully. If it's so good why are you playing a 360 and not a wii? I'll tell you why. Precise control, Better interaction and reliability, No excuse for getting owned, no insideout avatars when you move... It is precise. It works and it is really all you need. Add voice and I really see no need for motion. Do you? I mean look at all the flak the sixaxis got... no one wanted to play Lair because it "DIDN'T HAVE BUTTONS!" "Motion sucks" When really it was pretty realistic for a dragon flight simulator... Do you see what I am saying yet? let me break it down

A. I see no point
B. I see nothing new
C. It's all PR BS I hear with regards to Natal and PSMotion.
D. Despite what anyone says it's made for casual gamers. Period.
E. Nothing specific I can see that is a selling point.
F. How much space do I need
G. When do I get to see the AAA titles to make a better choice on if it' worth it or will they always be "Soon"
H. Why can't I just use voice.... It works for other games and that with a controller would be a lot better...
I. No inside out avatars.
J. how are you gonna play Street fighter? A boxing game I can see but you'll probably need a lot of space and after 1 or 2 rounds you'll be worn out as opposed to with a controller you could kill 2 hours in fight night...
K. WHATS THE POINT! BUY A WII!

[evrfighter]

Im sure Natal will bring some new original titles to the table. But your hardcore first person shooter will NOT be one of them.

This is why I have never cared about natal to begin with. Any other competitive fps gamer will tell you the same thing.

[Trollimite]

thats exacly what i was trying to say. bubbles(like you acctually need my bubble)

@ JokesOnYou below!

come on man! stop defending natal, its obviously nonsence and PR BS.
if your girlfriend(assuming shes real) dosent want to play halo, jumping around like an idiot wont convence her otherwise! and how can i play a game like cod4 using natal? how can i do an EX of ULTRA move in street fighter 4? its not possible without using a controller!

"it's not about reinventing the wheel it's about no wheel at all" = BS

[JokesOnYou]

"All I am saying jokes is that MS is marketing this in so many different ways. Is it hardcore or casual?"

-lmfao, Is that a serious question, have you seen what happens when casual/non-traditional gamers are curious enough to buy into "playing games"= just ask nintendo $$$$, and of course micro loves $$$$, but why can't micro shoot for the moon and aim for both since they already have a strong fanbase with hardcore gamers, as long as the past titles are still there with maybe only optional Natal support I don't see them giving up because casuals are buying other types of games...so their TRYING "marketing this in so many different ways" on purpose, they want their cake and eat it too, just like any company with the right imagination, talent, resources and money wants to do.

"Will it need me to track my whole body?"

-Well I'm not a Natal dev, but as the vids of the family in the living room show, it would do that in the begining and then you could "sit down" and play...depending on the game at that point it may only need to track your "head movement" or "your left hand" or "legs" or YES if its "Richochet" your whole body.

"The halo example is kinda... A 2 player single player game? Really?That just doesn't sound fun to me... Do you think your non hardcore gamer friend would want to do that?"

-Again, more of the "out of context" short-sighted thinking,= nah, I probably wouldn't want to play the whole game like that, but first of all who said thats the end of the level of gameplay implementation for a co-op game, thats just one aspect....and again as Alex noted this might be good for getting someone casual to play, like maybe my girl who would just watch me play Halo vs picking up a controller for a co-op game, at least with this aspect she may get involved, I could see her thinking it was cool just to lob a grenade for me with a simple throwing gesture when I yelled "Throw the damm grenade, already"...which would likely be her last attempt to play with me, but you get the point.

"I'm sorry but I just have very little faith in any of it and that is what I am saying."

-Oh now that much is evident....probably all you needed to say.

"If it's so good why are you playing a 360 and not a wii?"

-What a cop out, you and I know the wii isn't even bothered with attempting to sway the hardcore with meaningful games, theres the Conduit and a few other examples that I give dev's credit for but its not like I'm going to buy a wii(many family memebers own it) until theres a proven track record of the really great AAA titles I like being available for it and lets not even talk about my expensive HDTV that would basicly be wasted on the wii's lack of HD games. I'm not saying Natal will totally be this new end all be all of gaming, but its interesting and like I have said there is alot of potential there that it can ADD to games, no "faith" needed, just some intuitive that makes games fun.

JOY

[The Wood]

Natal cant do the hardcore games without a tangible controller. Lets not kid ourselves. The sooner MS just announce a controller to work with natal the better for us all because i see many hopeful people in here who seem to feel MS has the tech and knowhow to pull of their vision at a price thats palatable. IF you have to speak to control movements/actions....how the ef do i speak to a team mate......how do i tell him to jump. Anyway theres many reasons pads now have 10 buttons and 3 controllers Just think about it. What you guys are imagining WILL cost more than the console itself and nasa haven't shown the level of accuracy some are touting natal to have i mean if my nose itches and i scratch it Natal might see that as me beheading myself or some other random nonsense......In reality it probably wont be as accurate enough to play any of our hardcore games including driving games (dont tell me no crap about the paid celebrities waving their pegs about)

Where natal does give me hope is the type of games that can be born because of it so to speak....like a new genre ALMOST. The issue then lies with MS's willingness to help the studios it as left to make the games because it will be a lot harder to pay 3rd parties to make games exclusively for it so inhouse development will probably be the most efficient way of maximizing its potential.

my summary is this

MS cant make this really work for us all, not just the casuals, without a dedicated tangible controller NOT a broomstick or a toy gun with zero button/action mapping but a dedicated controller but i would be pleased to be proved wrong.

[GarandShooter]

Any piece of hardware or any peripheral has potential, but it's the software that realizes it. It's far too early to praise or damn Natal yet. Let's see the games and the imaginative way it's used before passing judgement.

[pain777pas]

They are taking the right approach. Sony's seems definitely doable but the need an analog nub of some kind. M$ seems like a pipe dream that will work for menus but not games that are big budget and intense as hell.

[raztad]

WTF?

Why so long posts? is really boring to read through them. Who are trying to convince with all that sh*t anyway?. Its crazy.

Natal lovers: Instead of writing load of B**t write some code for Ms and get a working natal game.

My take on this. I dont want/hope/expect motion tracking system like natal be the best way to play a game. Too much gimmickry, hard to interact with game. Good for EyePet or rail shooters but hardly for a FPS. If the future of gaming are the rail shooters I dont want to be in it.

[Poopface the 2nd]

Gabe should use Natal to get rid of his man boobs.

LOL JK. I LOVE VALVE. They made my favorite game ever. HALF-LIFE 1. WOOOOOO.

WOW. WTF are you guys writhing up there. I dont think anyone will read all that. Ive never seen so many huge comments.

EDit--As far a motion game taht will be on PS3 and 360, Im gonna wait and see. I do know already that I most likely wont use it for a traditional game. And I probably wont buy a natal unless they can really surprise me. However, Im sure that their are some people out there that are looking forward to see some motion games.

[Defectiv3_Detectiv3]

I've never been one to jump on the motion control hype bandwagon, personally, I think its just a gimmick, and both sony and ms are chasing Wii money.

Initially, I don' even think the Wii is that innovational so if MS or Sony can surpass its controls than that's not saying much. The Wii sells for its own reasons.

[indysurfn]

As soon as you fantoys realize that the same can be said of the Sony waggle show me the compelling game you will change your tune. Hypocrites! Last time I checked this is what VALVE is suppose to be doing creating games. Also he did mention that it was the wii launch games that people love. Notice those ARE the games that you move around on! I played them and they are a blast despite the graphics. Where is the killer Sony waggle app? Also this may hurt a Sony fantoys brain, but Microsoft is not allowing people to make natal only games. They have to be able to be controlled with the controller or NATAL players choice! Microsoft and Sony have explained this several times, but Sony fanys seem to be the only ones that say I want my controller. Stop whinning no one is taking your controller away!

[jav0918]

I can tell you how to play call of duty on Project Natal...Its easy. This is what you do. YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE NATAL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT FOR COD YOU DON'T USE IT!

[Arnon]

I wonder how many times I need to state that Microsoft already said they're going to use Natal to co-exist with controllers. What does this mean? It means both will be used in a single game. A good way to look at this is the Dualshock 3 and Sixaxis.

[mebob]

@JokesOnYou

Dude, just give up already, Jinxstar made very good points about natal. If you've played with a wii and eyetoy before, nothing in natal will seem new.

To me natal brings nothing new to gaming except combining everything thats already been done before. Until the day that we can plug own brains into a VR machine (like in matrix :p) the need for a controller or a physical device will remain.

"It means both will be used in a single game. A good way to look at this is the Dualshock 3 and Sixaxis. "

Yer but with the DS3 you look less like an idiot playing a video game.....

[Jinxstar]

Arnon

that was kinda my point. Everyone talked so much crap about the sixaxis. 360 fanboys thought it was the dumbest thing ever and cited Lair for nearly a year... I always liked Lair myself but I understand why so many hated it. if Natal is going to be like that why would people want it?

Mebob

Thanks. I do try. Jokes is kinda one sided. I try to be open but motion control on any system is pretty weak to me....

[N4g_null]

Jinxstar

"K. WHATS THE POINT! BUY A WII! "

This is what every one is saying...

Now lets look at this...

The motion controls for the HD system is suppose to accomplish what?

1.Get more casuals to buy the system.
2. provide a new control method to hardcore games.

Lets address one first.
360
It still RROD and once the casuals find out it will be game over for MS and the vista stigma still haunts them as do blue screens of death. Every one though it was price and maybe but RROD has turned fans into PS3 owners LOL.

Then there is the fact that MS only game that sold super good was halo... will natal be used in halo and will it be better than a controller? Like many have said we still don't know how MS wants us to use this thing in FPS yet.

With the PS3 we have this...
The price which should be falling soon... then on top of that SONY has had motion controls since the beginning of this gen yet they have not been able to make one motion control game that has caught on with people yet? Sony has always been good at making new stuff but never really good at coming up with new content. Are SONY 1st studio ready to make motion control games? Red steel sucked because developers did not understand how to use the tools... the conduit proved that and so did metroid...

Sony's track record when it comes to showing off new weird things is pretty bad. Just look at eye pet in comparison to nintendo dogs, nintendo crushed them. Look at mini games compared to eye toy and the horrible games that show cased it... wii sports crushed it.

Seriously the HD guys are claiming accuracy makes games better but I'm failing to see games from them that deal with fun controls first... the problem with the HD guys is they are not good designers and more about tech vision than making things usable. Once you make them usable then you must make them fun... that part is key.

PC mouse aiming is still better than motion controls for some games right now yet that is because their is more design work that needs to be done.

We will see if MS and SONY can show the world why we should even care first.

This is similar to the head tracking for Mr lees wii hack... it was not really used because it does not add to the game play at all.... MS and SONY need to pay attention to game play and not features... stop treating gaming like a bullet list.

[Jinxstar]

@ Scissor.

I agree 100% bro.

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

not coool

[-Mezzo-]

Wack like OBAMA in your avatar.

[Syronicus]

wack like Obama, period! lol

[UnwanteDreamz]

Wack like that nerd that plays the electric violin........................ well maybe not that wack but still pretty wack.

[DoctorSavage]

Wack like Obama using Acorn, La Raza, and the Black Panthers like he was still in Chicago. Congrats! What is next BMWs for everyone. How highs the well water Momma?, she said, 4 feet high and leaking out! The well gonna run dry and the 4 billion we tax payers are giving to Acorn ain't helping. I hope Natal works as good as Chicago Thug Politics!!!

[GarandShooter]

'I really want Bill Clinton back'

Is that you, Monica?

[DoctorSavage]

Nope not Monica.

Yes, I would rather have Clinton too, but Clinton just gave NK a photo op and that isn't good. What did Obama promise NK for the release. NK is a dictatorship that has killed over a million of its people, whose people are starving. Lets not forget the many abducted Japanese people that NK has...didn't hear anything about them... Did you see that Midget Smiling like a hot chic just sat on his face without being forced??? He got what he wanted...and whatever it was is not good for decent people where ever they may reside.

Doomed I tell You...DOOOOOOOOMEEEDDDDDDD :*(

[DoctorSavage]

it took me awhile.

Lewinsky: I had forgot that freak! Clinton got two new girls...didn't you see the news.

Clinton is a gun slinger...can't explain why he married Hillary, but still.

I would rather Obama to be a womanizer so he wouldn't be so focused on destroying the country. Clinton's needs kept his mind occupied. Obama is too straight laced, kind of like a person from Austria that really didn't do any good for Germany :|

uh oh :(

[Pandamobile]

Project Natal will certainly be interesting, but not revolutionary.

It will definitely be more geared towards the casual gamer market such as with the Wii.

As a shooter fan, myself, I would never use Natal for anything besides a sports game or arcade style game.

[-Mezzo-]

Agreed whenever i say Natal will not be revolutionary the xbox fans think i am just being a fanboy. it will work for sure will bring out interesting game. but certainly will not change the way we know and play games.

[coolirisGB]

Lol 3D tacking of more than one person with full body capability and gesture tech is not revolutionary. Let me guess wands are.

[SaberEdge]

The thing is, mezzo, you are a fanboy. A PS3 fanboy. So it's going to be hard for people to believe that you are being sincere and not just guided by your fanboyism.

I have my own doubts about how Natal will be utilized for hardcore games, but I am willing to wait and see. In terms of doing what the Wii is doing, I think Natal will do it, and will do it even better.

Edit @ Pandamobile below

No, I think you misread my post. I didn't say you were a PS3 fanboy, I was talking about mezzo. I didn't disagree with you. I know that you are mostly a PC fan and I see where you are coming from.

[Pandamobile]

I don't care for either. Just because I don't like Natal doesn't arbitrarily make me a PS3 fanboy.

In my opinion, Motion control at this stage of the game is more of a gimmick.

[coolirisGB]

Even if you had not admitted you favor PS3 numerous times "despite" being a PC gamer it's not hard to see this from your posts lol.

[ShabzS]

this was something that was brought up in a gamespot podcast... regarding natal and shooters or rpg shooters it would be more interesting to see the voice recognition tech and the face tracker applied heavily in a game like say mass effect 3... like if you can talk as shepard or punch a reporter in the face while calling her a bi*ch...

or if YOU can give commands/shout at delta squad in gears 3 ... or give hand signal for cover and infiltration for rainbow six vegas 3 .... the motion controls take the back seat in shooters .... like GS i'm more interested to see what they can do with the voice recognition and the face tracker.. true rpg immersion baby

[Pandamobile]

Ugh. I don't like either console. I just dislike Microsoft more because of the stupid sh1t they do to PC gamers. (i.e, shelving Alan Wake for PC, their failure of an online service: Games for Windows LIVE, and an assortment of other things. The reason I might slightly favour Sony is because they're so far out that they can't harm the PC gaming industry.

[-Mezzo-]

Agreed.

[Saaking]

Natal is fail, SONY has been working on this for years check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Check the demo done at around 7:20 and you'll from where MS got the idea of what they did at E3.

[-Mezzo-]

LOL agreed.

[InfectedDK]

Agreed

[Xistan]

Nice one there. Natal got owned.

[el zorro]

Sorry, but you're wrong. Natal is far more advanced than that.

[PandemicPrawn0]

What about an RTS?

[Raf1k1]

I don't think it's quite accurate enough to allow you to play an RTS properly.

You could get an RTS working on it but you wouldn't have the same level of control you get with a mouse. I'm not sure how it would compare with an X360 controller though.

[JonnyBigBoss]

It's completely casual. I can't see a SINGLE hardcore game on 360 implementing the technology to a point of it being practical. It'll be cool, that's for sure, but how successful is debatable.

[Qui-Gon Jim]

Natal will certainly be great for casual, and i predict we'll see an "EA Sports Active" type title for it, but it will have some uses in "hardcore" games, too. I see it eventually settling into a role in core games similar to the sixaxis, games will mostly have traditional controls with a few Natal features here and there where it will fit in nicely. Think of things like the crank turning spots in Killzone 2, or perhaps for things like the hacking mini-game from Bioshock.

[Kushan]

Valve, as a developer, should be the ones coming up with those games. Microsoft provides the tools, it's up to developers to use them.
Likewise, the same applies to Sony's motion controller and even the Wii. If you read the article, he actually directly compares Natal to the Wii and his statement is aimed towards BOTH.
He's not saying NATAL needs compelling games, he's saying motion controls in general do.

[Pandamobile]

Valve's a PC dev, not a 360 developer. They wouldn't go out and make a game that 95% of their fanbase couldn't play.

[Kushan]

Uhhh, I think you'll find they do, in fact, make games for the 360.
And Microsoft has already stated that Natal will work on PCs.

[Godmars290]

Name one pure 360 game that Valve's done.

They've got Half-life, games based on the Half-life engine, and Steam which supports PCs.

[Pistolero]

Valve make games for the 360 so Kushan is right...it is up to developers like them to come up with compelling software.

[Pandamobile]

I meant they don't make 360 exclusive games. All of Valve's console games are PC ports.

And they wouldn't use Natal on PC because it's a $200 piece of hardware and therefore the game wouldn't sell very well.

[Kushan]

Prices haven't been announced yet, so no it's NOT a $200 piece of hardware. You can't claim that, you don't know what it will cost.
If Natal truly does work on PCs, then the price point is no different than the 360's price point - it's the same hardware. In other words, if it sells on the 360, it has just as much chance of selling on the PC.

[Godmars290]

And what does that really mean? The PSeye and current 360 camera, their controllers, can be used on PCs. It comes down to its popularity and its software.

But what will it mean if MS pushes Natal as a PC accessory, where like many suspect, they're going to have to eat some of its costs to make it "cheap" for the 360. Are they going to take that same loss while they supply PC demand, or are they going to add some cost calling it PC compatibility?

And again, who's going to be making the software that will make PC owners/gamers what it for their machines?

@Kushan
"You're still making wild speculations"
And how are you not when you haven't really seen anything for Natal? That its going to be the "it" thing when the "it" thing currently, among console anyway, is the Wii.

[Kushan]

You're still making wild speculations, the fact is NOBODY knows how much it's going to cost. You can't even assume that microsoft will "eat" the costs when no information is available to base that claim on.
As for the software, everyone knows that the 360 is heavily based on DirectX and Microsoft themselves have depreciated many DirectX libraries in favour of their 360-based counterparts. Xaudio and XInput come to mind. What's to say that any Natal development libraries wouldn't become a part of DirectX?

[Saaking]

Poor bots, at least they got milo

[Saaking]

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[FragMnTagM]

Sorry for shouting, but I hate when people try to spread misinformation.

Natal's specs: http://www.project-natal.ne...

The device features an “RGB camera, depth sensor, multi-array microphone, and custom processor running proprietary software”, which provides full-body 3D motion capture, facial recognition, and voice recognition capabilities.

Eyetoy specs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Technical limitations

Due to the camera's need to "see" the player as they play, the camera needs to be used in a well-lit room. To help let the player know when there is not enough light, there is a red LED on the front of the camera that flashes when it is too dark. Some of the games utilise this feature, requiring players to place their hand in front of the camera to quit a certain mode.

Not the same dude, so quit trolling.

[Saaking]

My point was SONY's been developing this for years now so Project Natal isn't really anything revolutionary.

[Qui-Gon Jim]

Talk about "spreading misinformation."
The link you put there is for the Eyetoy. As in the PS2 Eyetoy. I'm sure it was a simple mistake, but the link you should have put up is this one for the "Playstation Eye":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
A person not paying attention would think Sony's Eye is far inferior if they looked at the link you posted.

Admittedly, the PSEye would probably have the same limitation you mention (though i seem to recall hearing that it has been improved), but then again if i am moving my body around to control something, i probably want lights on in the room to see anyway.

Natal does have a capability that the Eye does not (on its own), but with the "wands" added in, the 3D tracking seems to outperform Natal in precision and responsiveness, and with the lights in the wands' spheres, they could be tracked in the dark too. Tracking 48 points and creating a skeletal model of those points requires a lot more work than tracking 2 points, and that work seems to be showing up in the form of an input delay (watch the real gameplay demo videos). Each system does something better than the other in my opinion, with there being no differences other than that.

[FordGTGuy]

Shouldn't Valve as a game studio being the ones creating the compelling game for the hardware? Its like a photographer asking a camera salesman to show him pictures that haven't even been taken yet.

[Pandamobile]

Valve are PC devs.

[SaberEdge]

Valve might be first and foremost a PC dev, but they make games for the 360 too.

[Pandamobile]

But Valve aren't going to go and make a 360 exclusive because they would lose a boat load of money.

[Tony P]

Well, you're both right.

The devs should be the ones innovating but Valve will not be pushing Natal like that. Because there's nothing in it for Valve to push Natal.

You think they're going to make Natal or 360 exclusive games that alienate their main base of PC gamers on Steam? No, that's a terribly risky idea for all involved.

[air1]

what did the eyetoy do exactly? nothing...

sony tried it and failed.

hell, i bet none of you even have the eyetoy along with the other 95% that doesnt have it either.

[cyborg6971]

The eye toy did nothing but come out before natal and both will have the same impact nothing. Nice try.

[air1]

eyetoy is nothing like natal.

can you scroll through net flix movies by waving your hand to select a movie? oh, wait you dont have net flix..

sorry but the eyetoy is not as advanced as natal, so get over it..

you are right though the eyetoy came out b4 natal and did nothing, cant say the same about natal as it hasnt been released yet so its future is not known yet. i do know that natal got a lot of buzz after e3 only a sony fanatic like your self denies that fact...

sounding all butt hurt cause sony gave it a shot and failed lmfao...

you hear that everyone if someone comes out with something first and fails you should never ever give it a shot your self, all because someone else failed. man by your logic we would still be in ancient times cause no one will ever try to make something better..

see you tomorrow bumpy, when mommy lets you use the pc again..

[ThatCanadianGuy]

"can you scroll through net flix movies by waving your hand to select a movie?"

LMFAO.I can just picture him sitting there on the couch, waving his arm around struggling to move down the list like a f*cking idiot LOL!

Reality check.You can scroll through the movies with the simple, accurate, movement of a thumb.Waving your arm around is less convient

And, based on all Microsoft products, won't work.
Remember..
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

There's a reason most of their trash wasn't showed live.It's a long ways away from working.

Meanwhile, Sony confidently show's off their superior 1-1 motion tracking controller and stunning array of features.Sucks for the bots man.Sucks for the bots..

[TheTruth89]

"can you scroll through net flix movies by waving your hand to select a movie? oh, wait you dont have net flix.."

Hem... YES PS EYE CAN

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Look @2:01

Poor "DVD CAPABLE 360°C MINI-FURNACE" owner, you got owned again.

[The_Beast]

i was ganna post that after reading his retarded comment but you did so bubs for u! :D

[Sir Ken_Kutaragi]

He Chats to you, you Chat back??? You both can go on FaceLessBook and TWITter on your ChatBox 360's??? What more do you want???...oh...er...erm... 'AAA' xBox 360 Exclusive Games...Oh well... ;-D

http://www.gametrailers.com...

;-D

[Xistan]

@that video

bubbles up Ken :)

[PandemicPrawn0]

I don't know how accurate natal will or won't be, but if its tracking 48
points of your body I can only assume that includes fingers?.

that, with voice commands MAY provide enough of an interface to properly play an RTS.

I think the only thing possibly holding back natal is if they can get true 1:1 tracking.

[Theoneneo81]

so this means Valve is being Lazy again. why to people love these guys ?

[Pandamobile]

Because of their contribution to the gaming industry?

Without Half-Life, there'd be no epic story telling in first person shooters. Without Counter Strike, there'd be no competitive Halo, or Call of Duty. Without Steam, we'd still have to buy games on disks the old fashion way. Without Team Fortress, there'd be no class based multiplayer games. Or at least everything would be much, much different.

[ShabzS]

cant imagine a world without counter strike ... competetive multiplayer would be nowhere without it on pc or consoles...

[Poopface the 2nd]

THey arent lazy. Anyone who says taht is a deuch who clings to their console too much.

VALVE reinvented the FPS genre with Half-life(my favorite game with Deus EX). I dont understand why people dont understand that VALVE is a PC developer, and only made a few console games for some quick cash. They dont care about consoles and they shouldn't. I have a feeling they make ALOT more money than XBL or PSN with STEAM.

I guess you think Blizzard are lazy too cause they arnt making their games on consoles.

Valve was never lazy. They support their games more than any developer and have always provided their community with the tools to do amazing things like CS, DOD and countless other things.

[Double Toasted]

360 owners even support these guys?

Edit: I understand where the guy is coming from, but still...

[coolirisGB]

They're able to respectfully disagree.

He said motion in general was cool, then nothing was being offered hence the Wii praise of its early days. He hopes to see something great from Microsoft before getting excited. Motion has nothing to do with why Nintendo is slacking in software so it's a moot point.

[Pistolero]

"They're able to respectfully disagree"... unlike a certain other group of gamers. ;)

[ShabzS]

you talking about valve ?... maybe its coz they are responsible for the greatest first person shooter franchise ever made .... half life ... come on ... these guys are great... plus theres a whole other section of l4d fans out there ... but since i havent gotten my hands on that game yet i cant comment on it... valve is pretty good at what it does ...

[Tehdaza]

Took the words right out of my mouth, Shbzshar.

[Godmars290]

And it says a lot that Valve, who many think of as an innovator or leader in the gaming industry, is waiting along with us gamers to see what others do with it.

[Numark]

My opinion on natal is that it has huge potential and they need some killer games. With that being said, who in the world ever said natal would be used for "hardcore" games like halo or COD? No one is suggesting that or wants that. While their may be a casual shooter designed from the ground up for natal, no one expects to have a great fps with it...

[FragMnTagM]

yet Microsoft themselves said that it will be used for hardcore games. They said it at E3 or in a press briefing afterwards. Not sure when or where I heard it, but they did say that. Now I do not think they are going to replace the controller in hardcore games, rather I think it will compliment them.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Poor droids only get a dildo and eye toy tech Sony couldn't get to work.

[zack61]

all droids have vaginas they need the sony dildo

[betrayed gamer]

what about point and click adventures? everyone keeps saying natal+fps, but thats a big maybe i say point and click rpgs, and for the asian crowd dating sims

[darrensworld]

The people at valve need to take their blinders off and look at the bigger picture. I have bought and played valve games on pc for years, but i never realized how narrow minded they are until i started reading n4g.

[Tehdaza]

How is this being "Narrow minded"?

Just because a PC dev doesn't want to make a game for 360 using new and untried hardware doesn't make them narrow minded.

[Blaster_Master]

I can finally play air guitar the way it was intended. On air! <ends sarcasm>

[RAM MAGNUMS]

ALL XBUTTS HAVE MILO.

hands free controller to jerk of your avatar. it doesnt get any worse that that mii60s!

[zack61]

when droids see the eye pet they start to mastrubate

[zack61]

dude i don't give a damn what you think about me ok so go away droid

[ThatCanadianGuy]

So...you think it's okay to jerk off to men & Animals?
You really are a 360 fanboy huh? haha

[-Mezzo-]

VALVE are PC developers in the first place.

[KingKionic]

Ok i was joking ....

lol

Vavle make portal with Natal .

[Lets-Game]

i think natal is made for fanboys. I mean its unimaginably stupid and pointless device. Only deluded person in love with plastic can like something like natal. I mean jumping around like a retard or waving your hands.. wow guys get real. even though sony's magic wand looks much more practical and realistic to use its still crap.
Any real gamer knows this and I dont even talk about hardcore gamers.

did you ever play wii game alone or longer than 1-2 hour EVER? now imagine you have to jump around like epileptic on speed. ill give you 15min tops till you sit down in your couch and turn on gears.

[-Mezzo-]

I'll second that

[Poopface the 2nd]

I would not buy a wii or a NAtal most likely. However, a crap load of people seem to like, as you call it, "jumping around like a retard or waving your hands." Its not my cup of tea, but im sure their are alot of people who might like this.

If I had kids I might get this for them. Keep them active and get them excited for what im sure will be more "family friendly" games.

[-Mezzo-]

What Kratos jerking off.

[air1]

@ CANADIAN

first off i would not be scrolling down it scrolls to the side ;)

yea i can see it too canadian me and my girl sitting on the sofa with no controller in hand scrolling through movies to then just say play. how the fvck can you hate on that?`

seems like you need to go to your friends house and ask him to let you watch the natal video. and you dont wave your arm around literally moron, again go watch the video..

so no device in hand and the simple word of play is less convenient than a controller? how fvcking lazy are you ppl?

so natal will fail and the dildo stick will prevail lol...

a simple answer of no we cant scroll through net flix movies cause the ps3 doesnt have net flix would of been better, no?

"mean while sony shows off a direct rip off to the wii mote" lmao. the irony you ppl have..

@auon

i watched that link twice thinking that i missed the net flix demo but all i seen was some little rat jumping around.. " can i pet him?" yes but after he calms down.. so you ppl have something against milo but yet you guys are in love with a virtual pet that you would like to pet? just wow!

[Xi]

I agree with valve, MS needs to prove natal like nintendo did with Wii Sports, mario galaxy, LOZ, mario kart, metroid.

However, Natal is quite amazing because of it's ability to track full skeletal bodies in 3d space. Even if my arm is behind me, natal will know what my arm is doing because of how it calculates my skeletal structure. That's why natal is amazing. In the right hands, in hands eager to play with concepts and innovative ideas, natal can be amazing. Id love to see a game like heavy rain using natal.

And personally I don't want to see 'games' on natal, I want to see interactive art and second life type content. I want to see natal as a gateway for web 2.0 and the step closer to holo-decks and virtual interfaces sci-fi books and movies have been describing for years.

[-Mezzo-]

I really want to see a real discussion in Open Zone instead of pure fanboyish posts.

[N4G king]

well BAM !!!!

and there it fails

[devilhunterx]

Well BAM! THERE IT IS!

[kraze07]

I'm not really into natal and I can easily understand why others aren't either. Maybe if they come out with a first-person fighting game I'd show a little interest.

[creepjack]

People said the EXACT same thing about the Wii before it came out, and it failed miserably right? Valve, along with thousands of others apparently, think inside a little box and seem to have very little imagination as to what is possible with this tech.

Why should I care what Valve thinks anyway? They are the most overrated game developer out there right now, and for some reason, they think they are the only ones who truly know how to make games.

[MaJiKaLL]

i could state the flaws for Xbox Natal but you guys wouldn't listen. There is a reason why pseye games were only targets to younger crowd (not saying older wouldn't enjoy it too).

Ps-LightStick however yo take it will be amazing for all those shooter games, rpg, and whatever else, puzzle, fighter (maybe). Not sure about sports such as Fifa, but one advantage over Nintendo this controller has is its not the primary one. So if u don't like it, jus press the ps button and fire-up ur dualshock 3.

Imagine - Killzone 2 - special room in which no Dualshocks allowed. Throw grenade by actually doin motion or such! two lightsticks, each with an analogue stick plus a trigger.

wait - star wars force unleashed - that would be too siik! dnt need ot explain what you could do. use ur imagination

xbox360 - time u evolve, no1 uses memory cards no more, 20gb? my mobile phone has more memory than that.

[-Mezzo-]

Totally Agreed.

[MaJiKaLL]

younger people is what this is aimed at, and rule 101 how do young people learn? through touch!

you can bet your bottom dollar that MS are gonna rape this system with silly sticks/rackets/clubs to attract this market.

i mean surely u need the MS golf Stick to get that accurate skeleton structure needed to model perfect golfing?

I dnt get this though, fine it can calculate how balls bounch of your avatar image on screen, but thats easy, if u have the right physics simple enough, only relies on ur rough outline, no accuracy involved or speed for that matter (unless balls were travelling fast.

my question, opposite way round, how would it work on golf, which wii is pretty good (not perfect). I mean at the end of the day, we need stroke strength, direction etc. none of which can be "Accurately mapped" just from your rough position. Imagine your putting, standing several feet away, your arms baaaaarely move backwards and forwards. Think inverse graph, more closer the put/precision needed, lesser movement required.

In this sense I see this failing miserably. All the examples i have seen required less sensitive adjustments, almost static in several instances of time. The system doesn't cope well dynamically. I mean you saw when that douche tried to show an avators shoe sole.

[-Mezzo-]

Posts in here are as long as articles.