Red Steel 2 art style makes graphical comparisons to HD consoles irrelevant

NintendoDpad:
"Many Wii games that actually look great on the system have a huge flaw, always being compared to the HD consoles. This is changing though as many developers are starting to stylize their games in a very unique way.
This stylization is actually making it hard to compare graphics on the Wii and the HD consoles since they are so different. Art director for Red Steel 2 Stephane Bachelet, explains."

[Product]

Being an artist myself, I really love stylized graphics and wish more developers made games in this style or similar.

Then again, i really wish developers would do more creative stories in games also, but thats a separate issue.

[GWAVE]

It's true that the unique graphics of some Wii games (Zack & Wiki, MadWorld, and No More Heroes, to name a few) makes up for the Wii's lack in graphics, but what about Valkyria Chronicles? It's a "cel shaded" game done on an HD console, so it has the cartoony beauty that these same Wii games have, yet it's done with more detail, better physics, better sound quality, etc.

Graphical comparisons between the Wii and the HD consoles have always been irrelevant, not because the Wii somehow "makes up" for its lack of graphical power with neat cel-shaded graphics, but rather because the Wii does NOT make up for its graphics in any way, shape, or form. You do not play the Wii to look at good graphics. Period.

[ChickeyCantor]

You dont play any game to look at the gfx.

[asdr3wsfas]

"Graphical comparisons between the Wii and the HD consoles have always been irrelevant, not because the Wii somehow "makes up" for its lack of graphical power with neat cel-shaded graphics, but rather because the Wii does NOT make up for its graphics in any way, shape, or form."

The immersive controller makes up for the graphics enough that we still prefer our wiis to any other HD console. It draws us into the game more than eye candy ever could. And I have a high end gaming PC, so I know what beautiful graphics look like, along with a 40'' hdtv that a HD console would look amazing on.

But we focused so much on graphics and sound as main channels of realism that we forgot about the controls as essential to the experience. It took Nintendo (inventors of the D-pad) to remind us that high end graphics and sound won't fool you into thinking you're sword fighting when you're really hitting buttons on a controller.

I've been playing sword fighting on wii sports resort all day. And no Soul Calibur I've ever played compares. I've got EA Grand Slam tennis and with the table tennis game of wii sports resort there is no excuse or reason to play a tennis sim on any other console. Or to play any other golf sim besides Tiger Woods PGA tour '10. All use wiimotion plus and all do amazing jobs of mimicing the original sport (I used to play tennis), down to topspin. You could ray trace a tennis game in 7.1 channel audio and it still won't approach the level of realism and immersion these games provide.

[ape007]

this game is shaping up real good

look so unique and refreshing

[jackdoe]

I disagree oobob. I never felt immersed in any Wii game yet. Besides that, I play tennis myself. If I want to be immersed in tennis, I'll just pick up my racket and go to the courts. I want to be immersed in an experience that I would not normally do. Maybe once Real Motion Plus is utilized in a game other than Tiger Woods may I feel that immersion.

But until then, no. Still, there are some great games on the Wii that have pretty good art direction which compensates for the lack of visual flair that the PS3 and 360 provide.

[asdr3wsfas]

"I disagree oobob. I never felt immersed in any Wii game yet. Besides that, I play tennis myself. If I want to be immersed in tennis, I'll just pick up my racket and go to the courts. I want to be immersed in an experience that I would not normally do. Maybe once Real Motion Plus is utilized in a game other than Tiger Woods may I feel that immersion."

M+ is utilized in wii sports resort and EA Grand Slam Tennis + Virtua Tennis 2009 which are out now and have been for a little bit. You may play tennis but you can't when the court is wet or you can't find another person or it's dark and the parks close or you don't have time to drive there. Look up reviews on amazon - plenty from college tennis players and coaches. This thing gets spin right. Serving isn't the same but since that's always annoying I don't mind it so much ;) I played in a league during elementary and middle school and I could never get killer speed without faulting.

Have you played wii sports resort? Every game in there is incredible. You throttle the wiimote for a speed boost on the jetski and hold it and the nunchuck like the handlebars - it's just like a motorcycle and I drive it like my Yamaha Seca. You can properly spin the bowling ball. The sword fighting tracks your movements 100%. If you can't get lost in that I don't know what will do it for you.

I box at a competitive level currently and I still like motion controlled punchout, even though it's further off from real boxing. You can't always go out there and fight. And when I can't satisfy a late night urge to beat on someone because there's no action at 3am or another concussion is like begging for brain damage it's the best I have. Sure you can't move 360 degrees like in real boxing, but the fact it's on a screen makes that impossible for video games. Slamming down one leg to slip IRL while little mac dodges keeps it close, and ducking is pretty much the same except staying stationary upon recovery is asking to die. It may not map my punches exactly but it does punch when I do (no M+ support). And so I can practice some flurries when no one is able to fight.

[Tony P]

"Maybe once Real Motion Plus is utilized in a game other than Tiger Woods may I feel that immersion. "

It's used in Red Steel 2.

[jackdoe]

I really don't like mini game collections, so I'm not in the mood to purchase Wii Resort.

And yes, I know Red Steel 2 uses it, but it isn't out yet, so how can I be immersed in something that I cannot play?

[asdr3wsfas]

Virtua Tennis + Grand Slam tennis both use it dude and they've been out for a few weeks. Rather well too (only played Grand Slam I guess V.T. isn't as good).

Wii Sports Resort is much deeper in terms of control than a collection of minigames. I hated wii sports and this completely surprised me. Don't mistake it for minigames.

[Mr.Mister]

i agree with sidar,if you may like gfx in a game so much then it best you watch a movie then. i hate when game try to be realistic cause most of the time it take fun from the game.( with a few exception like uncharted and a few other) just not my cup of tea. some may disagree at least i know why but hey we live in a free country, right?

[N4Flamers]

I think that the wii is missing an element about video games that makes them transcend board games and become art. I personaly would love to see an hd wii with all the features of the current ones, plus ones that it lacks. You say that the controls immerse you imagine if you werent looking at a cartoon.

[asdr3wsfas]

"You say that the controls immerse you imagine if you werent looking at a cartoon."

Of course I would like better graphics. But you are not really considering how unrealistic a tennis game played on controller is if you're suggesting the graphics are what really detract from the experience.

In Grand Slam Tennis with M+ I spin or slice the ball by twisting the wiimote in a swing. Without follow-through the ball bounces off the racket wildly - just like in real life. The timing of my swing helps with cross-court shots just like actual tennis. My brother played GST tonight until his arm and back hurt and he couldn't move. He tried to play sitting down but you can't because follow-through and racquet control are so essential for your shots. He played every Unreal from the original to UT2004 and has recently been into Team Fortress 2 so he's not some sort of casual. And tennis for 3 years (6 here).

In wii sports resort if you point the ir sensor on the wiimote towards the screen and jab you hit the ball with the ***tip*** of your paddle. When I first did this I thought I swung well enough and didn't expect the ball to bounce into the net just like in real ping pong. I figured out what I did on the replay.

That rift between expectation and reality helped me appreciate how disconnected we actually are from most video games. This is a gap between the game and our experience of it that you aren't even willing to consider or address when you suggest cartoony graphics are the problem. My main complaint about Grand Slam Tennis is that lobs and drop shots are button controlled unlike the supreme command you have over typical forehands and backhands. Forget cartoony graphics; I'll play it with stick figures if you fix that.

To suggest that this gap between the game and our experience of it results from the graphics when people are playing baseball and tennis games by hitting a button is absurd. Holding an button to slice or spin is the opposite extreme of the fast-paced physical exertion on screen. It completely ignores the tactile and kinesthetic aspects of tennis to focus entirely on the visual. The contrast between the game and your control of it is so extreme that it prevents you from actually identifying with the action. I prefer a balance between the senses in my games. Poor graphics may hinder video games as art, but motion controls encourage them as play. Isn't that why we buy them?

[raztad]

Makes a lot of sense. Ghostbuster followed the same path, not aiming for photo realism but just some comic like art style. I like it.

[ZuperAmazingCooKie]

OK first of all you can't talk about comparisons to HD consoles when this game hasn't been developed for PS3, 360, PC or Mac.

Second, can you tell me how anyone manages to fool himself into thinking this game wouldn't look better in more capable hardware? Hell, wouldn't it have the capacity to be more interactive, as in better AI, more advanced physics, more interactive bodies, more NPCs on screen, more simulations of gameplay elements to add depth and variety to gameplay, and run at a higher resolution?

Wii fanboys better hope that Natal and Dualshock 4 (or whatever) don't add insult to injury in future comparisons.

[MK_Red]

WTF!? "This stylization is actually making it hard to compare graphics on the Wii and the HD consoles" NO. It doesn't.

One glimpse at stylish HD games like Prince of Persia or Borderlands shows that even "stylized" graphics look better on HD consoles.

[JonnyBigBoss]

I think it really works well, but not for EVERY game. Uncharted does a terrific job of utilizing realistic graphics to create a real environment. Same with many other top titles. If every game just had artistic graphics then it wouldn't be appreciated at all, so in that sense I disagree with the article.

[enviable27]

Its funny how the wii fanboys say graphics dont matter blah blah blah, if they didnt matter then what would be the point of buying new consoles, because paying $250 for a waggle gimmick on a gamecube sux, and believe me I know, I paid the $250.

[asdr3wsfas]

If graphics mattered this much you'd all be PC gamers with dual Radeon 4870 cards (each individually has 2 GPUS) running in crossfire for 2gb vram and 4 total gpus, with a quad-core overclocked processor and gigs of ram. One of those video cards murders any console.

Apparently there is some reason besides graphics you have chosen to play an HD console instead of a PC. That is the same argument everyone makes to defend the wii yet few HD console owners accept it in that context.

[CoxMulder]

Don't be such an ignorant fool oobob, the world isn't black & white.

"If graphics mattered this much you'd all be PC gamers with dual Radeon 4870 cards running in crossfire for 2gb vram and 4 total gpus, with a quad-core overclocked processor and gigs of ram."

..Maybe if money was free, and Sony's first party developers included the PC platform too.

Wii more immersive than HD-consoles? No way..
Look at that Wii version of Dead Space, it's a frakking joke!!

That's one of the more immersive games this generation butchered(!!) on the Wii platform. All due to the limitations of the platform.

Let me ask you, oobob...

What are (in your opinion) the most immersive games this generation?

[asdr3wsfas]

"..Maybe if money was free, and Sony's first party developers included the PC platform too. "

PC exclusives win FPS and MMORPG hands down. Quake Wars and any MMORPG you'd want. Civ IV is exclusive too.

Besides, when you say first party exclusives and cost, you just gave me an argument for Nintendo (the wii was cheaper originally than both hd consoles and if you factor in xbox live the difference is about the same for 360 and ps3). 600 dollars gets you a pc gaming rig that destroys HD consoles. That matches initial ps3 cost but comes a little above 360 - though not as much when you consider the price of xbox live (pc multiplayer is free). 400 will get you a pc rig that still beats the hd consoles power. What's the matter, you see that 200 dollar price increase as worth it for hd consoles but not for pc? I figured. We're not all made of money and that's why some people got the wii. Just like you can't justify paying that much more for graphics, they had no reason to do the same when a wii satisfied their needs. But those of us who care about games...well, we're willing to pay for the best. And the 360 only having 512mb of system ram is simply unacceptable for gamers who value real visual immersion.

What's really ignorant is how you can justify trashing a wii because it's worth the (250 dollars initially) and 150 dollars extra to get a ps3, but you say you'd never pay 150 dollars more than a ps3 for a gaming PC that offers the same upgrade in visuals. You're making the exact same argument as to why you avoid pc gaming that wii owners make to hd console users. The difference being that I'd accept your argument and am just trying to contort you into a position where it's made very clear of the double standard.

"Wii more immersive than HD-consoles? No way..Look at that Wii version of Dead Space, it's a frakking joke!! "That's one of the more immersive games this generation butchered(!!) on the Wii platform. All due to the limitations of the platform."

Yeah, if you really think Dead Space Extraction is meant to be the "wii version" of Dead Space and you think an unreleased game is already butchered there's no point discussing this with you. I'd say you compare RE4 on any other system to the wii version. Which is considered the definitive article because of the controls.

"What are (in your opinion) the most immersive games this generation?"

Grand Slam Tennis for wii by far. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 10' is probably just as good if you enjoy golf from what I hear. This will piss you off but I guarantee for most other gamers it ends up being wii sports resort. I need an actual tennis sim but I'm betting you money that happens. The controls are good enough to expect that too, it's just not as in depth as I like.

Otherwise you really aren't matching the actions on screen so it's hard to say "I identify with an alien killing space marine who aims with 2 joysticks." I guess Bioshock for PC probably. You actually have a method for aiming that doesn't constantly knock you out of game. But personally I'd say it ties RE4 on wii - it ruins playing RE on a controller afterward. HD console users have said this in other forums. When zombies are chasing you and you have to crank open the gate as ashley by turning the wiimote in a circle just like the crank it's a dead panic where you match exactly what's on screen with your actions. To say nothing of stabbing or reloading or dodging by shaking the controller or the other motion controls implemented, let alone aiming a gun by pointing (you may be unfamiliar with this but it's how you aim the real thing). I plan on getting RE5 for pc and hooking up a wiimote with bluetooth then controlling the game with that.

[The_Perverted_Ninja]

is this article serious? The game looks cool but come on... it's art style makes graphical comparisons to HD consoles irrelevant? That's just beyond silly

[Product]

Not in article, it is a quote from the art director of Red Steel 2

[Poopface the 2nd]

if you ignore the fact taht they could make the same game look better in HD, regardless of teh style.

[The-Director]

A powerful HD console doesn't only mean better graphics and resolution, it also mean better sound, better animation, number of enemies on the screen, fps and texture, art style will not make up for those other factors.

[asdr3wsfas]

A powerful PC doesn't only mean better graphics and resolution than HD consoles, it also means better sound, better animation, number of enemies on the screen, fps and texture. Art style will not make up for those other factors.

Why do you think Oblivion has such bad load times on 360? It only has 512mb system RAM and 512mb video ram so it can't store much in memory compared to the PC version. Instead you continually reload off the disc.

If you can make these points about the wii, I can make them about HD consoles. Something else is determining why you got a console instead of a PC. That's the same argument wii owners make which is never accepted.

[CoxMulder]

A powerful gaming rig will cost you almost the price of all consoles this generation combined (unless you're nerdy enough to build it yourself) and will be quite outdated & obsolete in about a year (maybe 2)

So the main argument against the PC would be MONEY.

Seeing as the powerful HD-console called the 360 will cost you less than a Wii, this argument is void for Wii owners.

So stop pulling things out of your arse..

[Xi]

Stylized graphics on the 360 and PC could take the visuals further then what we see on the Wii. Levels that have dust, debris or flowers floating in the air could have more, enemies could have better animation, higher textures on objects and models, levels could have more complex geometry, larger levels and higher polygon models, better physics on breakable objects and overall improvements like higher resolution, and AA.

Sure, using stylized graphics can overcome many of the technical short comings that the wii faces but to say that they could provide a level equivalent to the PC, PS3 and 360 is just foolish.

[hatchimatchi]

show me a wii game that claims to make comparisons to hd gaming irrelevant and i'll show you a psn game or xbl arcade game that proves otherwise.

graphics aren't everything but the wii doesn't hold a candle to what the ps3 or 360 can pump out.

Like i've said many times before, the fact that these comments are made shows that the wii's visuals are subpar and also the fact that people make comments about hardcore gaming not being dead on the wii proves that the wii's library is 99% trash.

[hatchimatchi]

yes, let's all get excited for red steel 2, cause you know, red steel 1 wasn't completely broken or anything....

[desolationstorm]

I really like the direction red steel 2 is going the art style is fantastic though the 6 shooter with the red and the west theme remind me of trigun. Though thats never a bad thing.

[EvilTwin]

The headline is very, very misleading. Bachelet isn't quoted there as saying the new art style makes comparisons "irrelevant" (that's an invention of the blog poster). She said they tried this art style to "avoid" comparisons with 360/PS3.

As MK_Red noted earlier, games like Prince of Persia and Borderlands use similar art styles, but are still going to look sharper.

That said, look at games like Wind Waker or Okami. They've aged remarkably well. People actually complained that the re-release of Okami was TOO sharp looking and lacked the paper filter that softened the overall look of the PS2 version (imagine that...sharper visuals and more vibrant colors being a bad thing).

Ubi is doing the right thing. Even though No More Heroes was graphically limited, the art style more than made up for it. MadWorld will probably age as well as Okami. The Wii can do those games, but can't do something like Bioshock, so why try?

[hatchimatchi]

i hear you, good post.

[na-no-nai]

lmao trash?? i guess you havent been playing any wii games at all. i have a list of games i been meanting to buy on the wii like 15 games strong. dont get me wrong i have a ps3 at home but those games on ps3 dont interest me as much as nintendo do and as for xbox 360, well i lost interest in it. nintendo 1st party games are never trash. sure nintendo dont have fps and stuff like that but graphics are nothing if they are played out and same thing over and over again. only game that i prob get on ps3 is rpgs and the next modern warfare