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Disk Swapping on Xbox 360 a Problem?

Andrew Weymes of The Nightly Gamer writes: "The DVD9 is certainly starting to show its age when compared to the Blu Ray. Even the smallest Blu Ray offers roughly twice the storage space as a DVD9 and the bigger Blu Rays can offer up to ten times the storage space. It's clear that Blu Ray is superior to DVD9 in almost every way, but the question is about Blu Rays relevance in this gaming generation. As it stands right now, the DVD9 is holding up reasonably well only forcing a few multi-disk games on the Xbox 360."

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Hiruma Youchi4000d ago

"with an edge like Blu Ray, they would undoubtedly make public knowledge of this superiority, but Sony doesn't seem motivated enough to do so"

Tru dat

MrWeymes4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

I am confused with Sony about their lack of motivation to let the world know about the great features of the Playstation 3. It's as though they want it to be a surprise to people who happen to buy the console.

ape0074000d ago

will have very big problems on multidisks

JsonHenry4000d ago

Meh, coming from the early days of PC gaming - disc swapping is not a big deal.

Not nearly as nice as not having to, but not so bad that most X360 owners would really care that much. I mean, who complained about having to swap discs in the Resident Evil franchise? The Baldur's Gate series?

See - no one.

ExcelKnight4000d ago

The only true disadvantage to multi-disk games (other than user annoyment) is how some data has to be exactly the same across all disks if a mandatory install isn't done.

Games as far back as Final Fantasy VIII are proof of this: In FF8, they basically blocked off access to most cities because there just wasn't enough space on the fourth disk for the entire ending area and the rest of the world anymore. Had it not been for the CD format's limitations (and Squaresoft's need to max out those disks) the game would've unfolded differently.

MrWeymes4000d ago

I don't think anyone would be silly enough to do an open world game on multiple disks. That would get downright tedious.

JokesOnYou4000d ago

I remember when I was alot younger and the games that had multiple disk we thought were more valuable, because in our mind the game was so huge it was like getting 2 or 3 games for the price of one. Now even with Bluray being superior to DVD9 there are consumers who still think multiple discs means its a huge game.

JOY

Ridrick4000d ago

Actually, juggling with 5 CD's in Baldurs Gate was bloody nightmare.

jadenkorri4000d ago

You would just be making fun of sony for swapping discs if the roles were reversed, but yet having to do something people have always disliked, its ok since its MS, same as its okay if you have technical issue with the system and have to send it in, people seem to be fine with it with MS, but yet sony its like the devil of all things.

ZuperAmazingCooKie4000d ago

"Now even with Bluray being superior to DVD9 there are consumers who still think multiple discs means its a huge game. "

That's because they are misinformed or blatantly stupid.

y0haN4000d ago

I still have MGS on PS1 with all those discs..

morganfell4000d ago

There are games where disk swapping just would not work. Titles are not structured the same way they were back when I was juggling all of those Wing Commander 3 and 4 CDs. Those stories didn't have area backtracking as is prevalent with so many sandbox oriented titles.

As long as you don't mind getting up and down to swap disks and you do not have a console with a documented history of scratching discs. It also advantageous if your disc medium is scratch resistant.

ThanatosDMC4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

I remember Torment and i had to switch disks everytime i go from a place i visited a long time ago from a place near the middle or end of the game... hassle. But back then, yeah... i thought it was cool since it made it feel like the game was big and awesome.

::looks at the picture::

I insert disks to where exactly??? OUCH!

Shepherd 2144000d ago

if you have a problem getting your lazy ass up to change the disc, then you are a pathetic human being. Only a few games on the 360 require multiple discs, and the subject of multiple discs was never a big deal last gen or the gen before that, now its a crisis.

Also this article is horribly exaggerating. He said the 50gb blu ray disc holds ten times the amount of a dvd9. do the math people. how many times does 9 go into 50? 5 times, with 5 left over. Yea 5 times is still alot but it goes to show you how these articles try to stretch whatever they can in favor of their console

no-spin4000d ago

if the only way to achieve a better game is by disc swapping, so be it. It may look last last gen, but if i as a gamer will have a better experience then it is okay.

DVD9 is what the 360 offers and if one disc is not enough then go multiple, dont cripple the game because it makes the console look bad.

Obviously i prefer the one disc package, but i am a gamer first, and i want the great games

y0haN4000d ago

Sheperd he was talking about DVD-5, the standard for DVD before they dual layered the disc, much like how you can have a SL and DL Blu Ray disc (25 and 50 GB respectively).

pumpkinpunker4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

weymes, what's your deal? another anti-360 article, I see. Starting a cottage industry?

hey, why don't you mention that disk swapping takes a lot less time and disk memory than the PS3 mandatory installs in your "objective" analysis? I'd rather swap a couple disks then sit around waiting for a 20 minute install, clogging up my hard-drive and costing me money.

I think I speak for most consumers when I say Bluray's disk space is a good idea for gaming but Sony flubbed it up when most games require lengthy installs which pretty much cancel out any of its advantages and some may even think Bluray is inferior because of this. Besides, how many games require multiple disks on the 360? Not many. Not as many as require installs on the PS3.

@eagle21

yeah, in 2009 we wait for games to install instead of playing them immediately. 2009 costs hard-drive space and time thanks to "superior" Bluray technology.

@Weymes

In the interest of objective analysis you shouldn't just write another article in the future you should rewrite your current article. The fact that a major drawback to Bluray technology is missing from your decidedly pro-Bluray article is bad journalism.

MrWeymes4000d ago

I agree 100% that the mandatory installs for most Playstation 3 games is annoying as hell. They take up space and waiting 5 minutes the first time you turn a game on is a huge piss off.

I may write an article about that sometime as well. The multi-disk complaint just came to mind when I was playing Star Ocean: The Last Hope. I don't have a particular bias towards any console.

GWAVE4000d ago

Whether it's a multi-disk 360 game or a Blu Ray PS3 game, it really should make no difference to gamers. It's five minutes of your life for the PS3 install or a few moments of your life several times over the course of the game with a multi-disk game.

People are missing the point. The REAL issue here is how the developers feel about multi-disk games. You're lying to yourself if you think that games like Grand Theft Auto 4 and Fallout 3 would not have benefited from the extra space on Blu Ray being the standard. Instead, we had games that were chopped down to accommodate the 360's limitations. It's no big secret that Microsoft's multi-disk fees and policies on the 360 are a nightmare for publishers, not to mention the fact that you can't do a mandatory install for any 360 games.

And this difference expresses itself in tangible ways. Could Killzone 2 have been done on the 360? No. Why? Believe it or not, it has less to do with the hardware and more to do with the disk space. Every texture in Killzone 2 is uncompressed, meaning that the PS3 hardware can focus on displaying other things. Gears 2 is probably the best-looking game on the 360, but it's easy to see the limitations of the engine. There aren't very many enemies, area are small (unless it's on-rails), and there is texture pop-in on larger maps. Is this because the 360 is a weak console? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It's because DVD9 is incredibly limited and 360 devs are crippled when developing their games. If the 360 had built-in HD-DVD or Blu Ray, you can bet your Jan Templar figurine that games like Killzone 2 would be possible on the 360.

Oh, but I completely forgot. Microsoft doesn't force people to pay for things they don't want...

pixelsword4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

Not wanting to Change discs makes you "lazy" but waiting for a disc to install, calling your friends on the phone, or turning your music on instead of using the advantages of XBL instead of the PSN makes you what now?

It's more than changing discs; it's about making games that could not implement well using a multi-disc solution; and the newer Blu-Ray discs are over 100 gigs (and experimental discs are up to 400 gigs).

Not to attack the 360 (because it's a good console) but:

Epic's UTIII had to be lowered in graphical quality to the point that it looked worse then Gears 1 on the 360, and the PS3 version looked better than the Gears 1, and looked almost as good if not very close to gears 2. ***(if anyone thinks I'm wrong, flat-out tell me that UTIII on the 360 looked BETTR than Gears 1; because UTIII on the PS3 looked better than Gears 1).

Rockstar's GTA IV has problems which no doubt resulted in a smaller than planned game.

Id's Rage has a whole third of the game removed, as exposed by Carmack; but covered-up by Willits (if you doubt me, then why did Carmack say all of that like he was somehow uninformed?)

The examples will go on and on when you compare games like Prototype and Infamous, like Killzone 2 and Halo 3... the games with more space will have some type of advantage one way or another.

Rick AstIey4000d ago

Gotta lova the idiots that say things like "You're just lazy". No no, YOU'RE just living in the past. This is 2009, I shouldn't have to swap discs. Xbox 360 is just a last generation console.

Shepherd 2144000d ago

no, your just a shallow minded person. 360 is not a last generation console. Swapping discs is a very minor subject when you think of "next gen". Have you thought of the ps3's online? im pretty sure is last gen stuff. and im not talking about the abysmal Home, im talking about regular PSN. you need to take you ignorant opinions elsewhere. If a game kicks ass but has multiple discs, i dont care because, well, it kicks ass.

Rick AstIey4000d ago

Nope, again you're thinking about the 360. P2P networking in games is last gen. Most PS3 exclusives run on dedicated servers. You fail.

edgeofblade4000d ago (Edited 3999d ago )

I really don't get people who call them "blu rays". The correct term is Blu-ray Disk, or BD for short.

And calling it "the blue rays" really makes my eye twitch...

@GWAVE: Whoa... uncompressed? Do you know the first thing about digital content? Images and sound can compress or expand to fit the space they are given, so this "uncompressed" angle doesn't work. It doesn't even exist. True uncompressed is a painter taking 3 weeks to paint each frame, or a special effects guy making noise in the same room as you.

Plus, the advanced graphics in Killzone 2 are achieved through algorithms, not huge textures. Those algorithms take a minuscule fraction of even the compressed textures.

YES, the 360 could easily handle KZ2. Would you be able to pick out differences? After the post processing effects, you would be hard pressed, but you could probably find something. But as it stands, it would still play the exact same on the 360.

BD has VERY little to do with games and EVERYTHING to do with movies. These lies about Blu-ray being necessary for games are wholly manufactured. And as for the devs, what do you do when Sony asks you to comment on Blu-ray? Well, let me ask you what you do when the mob boss asks if his hideous daughter is beautiful? You say, of course she is!

morganfell3999d ago

MrWeymes,

You miss the point. Uncharted and Killzone 2 have shown HDD installs are not necessary whereas multiple discs to make up for DVD9 limitations are required., There isn't a way around the DVD9 issue without a dedicated HDD...which would necessitate proprietary compression and you guessed it, a disc install.

solidsnakus3999d ago

can you guys just stfu please. just look at the damn facts

the only games on multiple disks are jrpgs.
no other genre to date has used multiple disks.

installing to hdd on ps3 is a far worse problem cause it takes about 10-20 min install on tons of ps3 games so far, it takes 10-20 seconds to swap a disk when you get 20 hours into a jrpg and never go back to disk 1... so just stfu

JasonPC360PS3Wii3999d ago

It's better than forced installs and the same as swapping out HDDs when one is full. Blu-ray offers no advantage in this area because most games require you to install 5 - 10gb. Those with 40gb and 60gb PS3's are out of luck in they have a large game library. They ether need to buy another HD, or delete games and install them again if they want to replay an old game.

morganfell3999d ago

The reason the only games with multi disks are jprgs is because games are either trimmed to fit a single disk or you are getting less game than you deserve. The latter due to either laziness or lack of creativity of the developer.

As Rockstar remarked, as Bizarre Creations remarked, as several devs have remarked, the game was trimmed to fit DVD9. Sorry, but your jprg argument fails. Miserably.

thereapersson3999d ago

Based off of the way you comment, I wouldn't be preaching to anyone about objectivity and what fanboyism is showing in who's posts...

y0haN3999d ago

snakus, Forza 3 doesn't seem like a JRPG to me.

Imagine playing online... "Another player is using a car from Disc 1. Insert it now." :D

All-33999d ago

Sony has and did push the fact that blu-ray discs have a greater storage capacity vs DVD-9... don't even go there!

A quote from the article: For now, The Nightly Gamer is undecided as to whether the DVD9 is too outdated to compete with Blu Ray. On one hand, Xbox 360 exclusives in most genres look and play almost identically to what you would expect from a Playstation 3 exclusive.

You don't even have to look at 360 exclusives - look at multiplatform games like Rage or RE5.

Quote from the article: On the other hand, RPG fans are getting shafted by Xbox 360 exclusives not including the japanese voice tracks and being forced to reinsert earlier disks in order backtrack through areas.

#1) Not ALL 360 JRPGs exclude Japanese voice tracks! FACT.

#2) Reinserting discs is more of a DESIGN flaw by the game's developer - rather than ONLY a hardware flaw.

IF Sony wants MORE game content because blu-ray discs can hold MORE game content... then Sony better learn it has to PAY-FOR-IT!

Game Publishers/Developers --> are NOT going to spend more TIME/MONEY on making extra game content for PS3 versions of multiplatform games --> FOR NOTHING. It's a freaking business.

How many times has Sony stated --> it doesn't pay for exclusives?

LOTS of people jumped on that and used it against Microsoft... well you get what you pay for - don't you? Microsoft have made many multiplatform games their own by SPENDING MONEY and getting extra game content... yeah --> even with the puny DVD-9 discs the 360 uses.

In the 50GB game - MGS4.. what was the ACTUAL gameplay time? Were people really playing 15-20-30 hours?

How much of the 50GBs of game data was just in-game MOVIES vs actual gameplay?

How many 20+ hour blu-ray games are their that aren't RPGs, Racing or Fighting types of games?

Does anyone know WHY?

Because GAME DEVELOPMENT is freaking $$$ expensive $$$

Instead of BUYING development companies as Sony has (Guerrilla) ... maybe Sony SHOULD spend cash on extra game content for multiplatform games and shut up about spending habits of other companies.. and perhaps Sony should SPEND more money on advertising games too.

Disc swapping isn't any deal-breaker... and blu-ray disc capacity doesn't guarantee BETTER or even LONGER games.

All-33999d ago

@ GWAVE...

One doesn't even have to play very far into Killzone 2 to SEE --> pop-in happening.

In the opening level - after you engage with the Helghast for the very first time and go round the corner left, to join up with your other forces... LOOK at the building on the left side. Look down to where there is a large BLACK opening and move forward. You'll see a large DOOR pop into view... and just as you go over the ramp.. watch as there's over hanging framework that pops into view in the same area as well.

And if you think OTHER PS3 exclusive games --> don't have pop-in... you're deluding yourself!

Lair?

MGS4?

Resistance 2?

I own ALL systems... and I've played Killzone 2 and those other games mentioned.

WHY is streaming so important to PS3 games? WHY don't you come clean on that issue?

Isn't it because of the way Sony designed the MEMORY usage in the PS3 --> being two 256MB chunks instead of one chunk of 512MBs? Isn't this split PS3 memory an issue for many game developers concerning game development?

rockleex3999d ago

Did you know that the joke's on you?

Back then, people didn't mind swapping discs, because CD's offered more storage space than cartridges.

But imagine if you were playing FF7 on the N64, you'd need a WHOLE lot more cartridges than discs.

Imagine if the PS3 was limited to CDs, while 360's had DVDs. People would RIGHTFULLY complain about it because there's NO REASON why Sony should stick with CD's when there are DVDs available!

Why limit yourself to DVDs when you could have Blurays? Just so that you can claim "oh, but we have more discs for each game, and we don't mind switching discs"?

morganfell3999d ago

rockleex you make an excellent point. It would be like my getting ready to buy Privateer 2 back then but instead of the new CD format I was stuck with 20 cartridges.

SpoonyRedMage3999d ago (Edited 3999d ago )

Well there is a problem with your analogy. FFVII filled 3 CDs and would have filled 13 cartridges so you're definately right that that would be a bugger.

The problem though is the majority of games that are being held back and dumbed down could fit on two DVDs at most(there are exceptions), I mean Tekken 6 is stuggling the fit on one DVD that means that yes DVDs do have too little capacity nowadays but the degree of increase provided by Blu-Ray isn't needed right now whereas the degree of increase in the past gens was needed.

EDIT: So 50GB Blu-Rays aren't needed except for the odd game(MGS4, maybe a JRPG or too) and even the 25 GB has more space than it needs.

morganfell3999d ago

SpoonyRedMage, titles are trimmed more often than is advertised. Were devs given more allowance by publisher there would be a great many more double 360 disk games than currently around.

Shepherd 2143999d ago

im pretty sure being able to online invite someone to your game if they are both on the same game is last gen. just tellin ya man.

+ Show (34) more repliesLast reply 3999d ago
Wenis4000d ago

Considering every game that I have played is all on a single disc. In fact the only game I've ever played that used multiple discs was FFVII on the PS1. Never complained because the game was so great, therefore I didn't really give disc swapping a second thought.

MrWeymes4000d ago

Yes, if you don't play any RPGs on the 360, I can see the disk swapping not being a problem. My main complaint is Star Ocean: The Last Hope.

You have to reinsert previous disks to backtrack through areas for sidemissions, etc.

jadenkorri4000d ago

legend of dragoon did the same thing when you backtracked, i had to put in disc 3, then disc 2, then disc 1, just to get the 1 dragon spirit i had missed..

Armyless4000d ago

The bigger problem is the development of a game on both consoles that has to fit in the restrictions of either console... and DVD9 is restricting my games and I don't even own a 360.

edgeofblade3999d ago

@Armyless:

Textures compress. In fact, even the textures on PS3 are compressed. It's just more efficient to use a compressed texture in runtime.

Geez, next people are going to say that PS3 is so uber powerful, it can ignore all LOD considerations...

y0haN3999d ago

@edgeofblade

Of course the PS3 has no limit, all textures on the system are ∞ x ∞ resolution ;).

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 3999d ago
2 cents4000d ago

Well, pcs used multiple discs for decades and no one complained, so i don`t see it a problem from the consumers perspective. However, paying royalties to MS for each extra disc can be a problem for devs, who may find more convenient to dumb down the game to fit on less discs. It has not happened so far, but with devs consistently increasing the size of the games, is only a matter of time before that happens.

MrWeymes4000d ago

It hasn't happened yet that we know of. Look at Infinite Undiscovery. That whole damn game felt incomplete to me.

Camper4000d ago

Of course more space is better but what if next console still uses dvd9? I bet it wouldnt change so much expect graphics.

Kushan4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

Why would it? THe only reason MS picked DVD as a format was because at the time both HD-DVD and Blu-ray hadn't got off the ground. The drive would have been slow and expensive, so at the time it was a valid toss up between the two.
The PS3 is still seen as being the "expensive" console, purely due to the BR drive and we all know the installs are a pain - and that came out a full year after the 360 did.
By the time the next console generation swoops over us, BR drives will be cheap and fast, meaning any console using it will have incredible storage capacity AND fast loading times.

Microsoft wont care that Sony has a stake in the format, business is business.

pixelsword4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

If "business was business" Microsoft would've made a Blu-Ray add-on by now; Microsoft also would've included Blu-Ray support for it's new Windows out the box. Blu-Ray is clearly catching on now and is the formal next format to have.

Kushan4000d ago (Edited 4000d ago )

Microsoft doesn't make any money from Blu-ray sales, but for them to add support to windows "out of the box", they'd have to pay a license for every single copy of windows. Why would they do this for a format that only about 2% (at the most) of users are going to have on their computers?
Especially since chances are anyone with a BR drive already has a license for software to play it, either from the box the drive came in or the OEM they bought their computer from.
All those formats MS supports, aside from the open ones, cost money to license, so that BR support you want could add a few $$$ to the price of the OS.

As for the 360 addon, I actually agree that MS should have released one by now, however that still doesn't take away from my previous statement of "business is business", whatever reason MS picked not to release it is not because Sony is a major stakeholder of the format, both companies already use a lot of each other's products without a problem.

Bazookajoe_834000d ago

Maybe ms can solve it by allowing install on all discs except the first one.