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"The PS3 is a huge pain in the ass" - Wheelman dev

Just when we were thinking about how long it had been since the last 360 vs. PS3 debacle, The Wheelman's Executive Producer Shaun Himmerick has come along to save the day.

When asked by ThisXboxLife.com what it had been like to develop simultaneously for Xbox 360 and PS3, Himmerick replied:

"The politically incorrect answer is that the PS3 is a huge pain in the ass. Anyone making a game, if you're going to make it for both [360 and PS3], just lead on the PS3 because if it works on the PS3 it'll work on 360."

"The easiest way to look at it is, the 360 has one big chunk of memory, but the PS3 has two chunks of memory that in total are the same size as the Xbox, but because they're split you can't share memory the same way. That will bite you in the ass, and it bit us in the ass bad."

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cryymoar3548d ago

it isn't a pain in the ass for the consumer, which is the most important part. It won't fail on you, it won't scratch your discs, it won't steal your money for things that should be free (online play). The PS3 is a godsend for me and million of other owners.
Meanwhile, the xbox 360 has been a burden to millions.

Sir Ken_Kutaragi3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

Come on xBot RATS, it's 'KillZone 2' week!!!(Mine is in the Post!!!) ;-P
and this is all you got??? ;-D Same old CR*P??? Try harder!!! ;-D
I(+PS3 Fans)will keep enjoying our PS3 Exclusive TRUE Next-gen Looking games while you lot(xBots)live in the PAST!!! ;-D

xbollox3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

exactly.

now imagine a race car driver telling you this:

"yeah, i know, this car is the fastest and i could win all races with it but you know, it's a real pain in the ass to drive: you have to switch gears manually and there's no cup holder for my latte. so instead, i chose the crappy car that always breaks, sorry about that"

this is a tough competitive world we live in, no room for whiny losers

2 more days till killzone 2!

BLUR1113548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

yeah it it a pain in the ass just to use one. all the installs and firmware updates and waiting years to play great games on it.

But hey it's got bluray that is why we all really bought one

am I right or am I right?

Guitarded3548d ago

Two words that describe both the PS3 architecture and the PS3 fanboys. How convenient.

Why dis3547d ago

Did you understand that right?

He's saying just cater to the lowest common denominator because the 360 can do anything the PS3 can throw at it, which isn't the case the other way around.

Do you understand?

+ Show (5) more repliesLast reply 3547d ago
user8586213548d ago

dats not wat infinity ward said :)

she00win993548d ago

patchstation is back with lots of bubbles, don't worry it will be done in less than a week...

Dimitri3548d ago

If devs are completely dedicated to the PS3 like Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Konami, Guerilla Games PS3 isnt such a pain in the ass.

NO ONE was a genious on day 1 ;).

Kleptic3548d ago

yeah...when wheelman gets a 70 on meta, we'll be right back where we started...a developer of a painfully mediocre game is complaining about the PS3 again...

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 3548d ago
Chris3993548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

Not a piece of sh*t.

I don't care what platform it's on or how complicated it's development cycle was.

A turd is a turd.

Edit: @ Death. Good point. It's been stated numerous times over the years that mutli-plat software should start on the PS3 first. This isn't exactly a stunning revelation on the developer's part.

sonarus3548d ago

Lol where was this clown when devs have been screaming lead on PS3 for the past 2yrs. Only thing worse than a crap port is a crap port of a crap game. Not like i needed any incentive to side step the wheelman but thanks for giving me one anyway.

SRU96003548d ago

Instead of constantly attacking developers who speak the truth, why don't you guys direct your anger at Sony for making a console that the majority of developers can't stand working with?

cmacdonald3548d ago

You mean bad developers that can't do what others can.

3548d ago
Pixel_Addict3548d ago

The claim that the PS3 has 2 separate chunks of memory is really false. The PS3's 2x 256 RAM is shareable: http://talkplaystation.com/...

sak5003548d ago

@chris

Can share with us your games you developed for ps3? how much did those cost and how much time was spend and ROI did you get?

Capt CHAOS3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

char xbox[14];
char ps3[2][7];

strcpy(xbox,"This is text");

strncpy(ps3[0],"This is",7);
strcpy(ps3[1]," text");

It's a basic example, look it it. The ps3 has two lots of ram and 360 has one big block, it shouldn't make a HUGE difference, but it does make some difference..

Coders out there.. Yeah, it's a very basic example and not loaded with the same issues of a two blocks of ram architecture. I guess the problem is with very large datasets..

SupaPlaya3548d ago

if there is a way to virtually combine the memory pool of the faster XDR Ram and the slower RAM just so the multiplat devs could just program to it "like a dumb PC".

While the Cell architecture is different and that is understandable, perhaps 512 MB XDR RAM would have made things a little easier (but perhaps too cost prohibitive). I wonder if this 2 memory speed setup really provide that much of an advantage VS the a single larger, but slower memory pool.

Looking at KZ2 would tell you that the PS3 capable of amazing graphics, but how much of that performance is from the Cell and how much is from the faster memory setup? That is the question. Would having Cell alone and a larger, slower memory setup still be possible for KZ2 while making development easier? Or is the faster memory key to the great textures (look at some of the ground and gun textures) in KZ2?

Lastly, part of the blame is with the Devs (not leading on PS3 for multiplats). This is not 2006.

gaffyh3548d ago

I'm guessing 1000 degrees.

SupaPlaya3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

I have very limited C and some java programming experience. I'm mainly a ASP.NET dev.

It looks like you are declaring a 2 dimensional array on the PS3 versus the 1 dimensional array on the 360 version of your code. Please shed some light on how does that relate to having two memory pools. To me they look like they are referencing the same memory location using a single pointer/array variable.

@Capt Chaos - thanks for the reply.

jaidek3548d ago

It amazes me that all of you fanboys argue with a quote from a developer who knows what they are talking about. How about this? Go to school, get your degree in computer programming, get a job at a game studio, work there for a few years, develop for BOTH the PS3 and Xbox 360, then come tell us your opinion so everyone on N4G can argue with you.

I just wish people were educated on what goes into developing a game...

Capt CHAOS3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

Like I said, it was a very basic example, I think the main issue might be with copying data from one array to another, not sure what the actual Cell assempler instructions are or if you need to use a special instruction when copying between the two pages.

I was trying (very poorly), trying to show how you might have an array of 512mb and trying to copy something like 400mb into it.. Not that you'd even want to.

Just a bad example. ;-/

Elven63548d ago

I didn't know we had so many game developers on N4G who were able to provide insight, perhaps developers should look here instead for ideas on how to program their next game, since you know N4G is full of veteran coders ready to lend a helping hand and all....

Wheelman has been in development since 2006, the idea to lead on the PS3 hasn't been around or widely accepted until 2007/2008, are some fanboys on N4G really suggesting after hearing of this idea the Wheelman developers should have just scraped the game entirely and use the PS3 has a main platform?

All these people here complaining about the experience of the developers or the quality of the port, have you played it? Has the developer even commented on it? NO! All he said was they had development issues with the PS3 (which is nothing new, devs have complained about this in the past with their first few PS3 projects) for all you know the port could be of equal or better quality then the 360 and PC versions.

Fanboys are a amazing piece of work...

Wheelman looks interesting and I will definitely be giving it a go.

lokiroo4203548d ago

Add another to the growing list of poor development teams, shame really.

Mindboggle3548d ago

If its so hard dont make it for PS3 then...Its a peice of crap anyway, or how about go back to school and learn to program properly.

Elven63548d ago

Mindboggle: How many schools do you know of even 5 years ago that taught CELL programming? Besides, I already answered most the questions regarding experience in my above post. ^^^^

Lich1203548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

Because they know more about making games for a console than the people making games on those consoles. Honestly, even if you are a fanboy, does that stop you from admitting that the ps3 is harder to develop for?! Because it really is. Multithreaded applications are a nightmare to program (thats why most multi-threading processes for an Operating system are delegated to the best programmers), so programming for a cell processor effectively is very difficult.

As far as the memory goes, having to separate memory banks is less effective than one consolidated source. Suppose they have a map file which is 300MB, it can't be loaded straight into memory as is. Of course theres ways around this, but that's the point, it takes a bit more effort.

EDIT: Looks like Eleven6 has already point out most of this.

3548d ago
Chris3993548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

"I don't care what platform it's on or how complicated it's development cycle was.

A turd is a turd."

My statement was pretty clear; I'm confused as to all the interpretations that some of you seem to have conjured.

@Sak500, Eleven6 and the like: I'm not a developer, nor do I have particular sympathy for them. IT professionals and game designers are some of the highest paid individuals IN THE WORLD. It is expected that they will push and adapt to bleeding edge technology, it is their career. Saying "it's tough", doesn't cut it when there are other people in your field doing better with the same technology.

Sure there are hard times - especially now - but the same is true in ANY profession. So let's not wax poetic about the trials and tribulations of being a game developer.

And I'm not being a fanboy, after all is said and done THE GAME SIMPLY DOESN'T LOOK THAT IMPRESSIVE. Please share with me the glowing previews or gushing journalists carrying on as if this was the Second Coming.

Furthermore, this counter-argument that our opinions are not valid if we are not not we are programmers or have not personally tackled the PS3 architecture before is asinine. Most of us are consumers, and the only thing that the majority of us care about is the finished product. And again:

"A turd is a turd."

That's exactly what this game looks to be: A TURD. Pure mediocrity. And no amount of discussion over the complexities of it's production will likely save if from that fate.

SupaPlaya3548d ago

So basically the people complaining either are lazy or never programmed for the PS2 before?

3548d ago
Elven63548d ago

Well everyone is entitled to their own views if you don't like the game thats fine, although all the previews of the game have been really positive, it could be really good.

GrandTheftZamboni3548d ago

char xbox[14];
char ps3[2][7];

Second line giving you a problem? Go learn programming on something else.

phosphor1123548d ago

Yes, they are shareable, but doesn't mean programming for it is the same if it were just 1 unit. Because they are seperated, programmers have to dedicate threads and processes to be able to optimize transfer over pipelines.

I forgot what else I was gonna say...I"m real tired. Anyway, I lawled at this "The Xbox is just like a dumb PC, which is great because it’s easier to build a game on a PC." Lol..was it necessary to call it dumb? haha.

3548d ago
N4360G3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

LOL Another cry baby? Just STFU and don't make games for the PS3,I will be too busy playing quality PS3 exclusives anyway!!

The Lazy One3548d ago

this comment section is hilarious.

I have never seen so many people that don't know anything about hardware or programming argue so fervently over the specifics and minutia of complex computer hardware and programming languages.

DaTruth3548d ago

It is hard too stay mad at Sony, when in 2 days they will give us Killzone 2.

Every time we get upset about some generic crappy multiplatform we probably wouldn't have bought falling short of the Xbox version at 300x zoom or under an electron microscope; Sony comes out with an incredible line of exclusives to make it up to us.

3548d ago
Consoldtobots3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

only 2 days left to KZ2!!!!!

are you guys excited?

btw what is "the wheelman"? lol

porting from PS3 to 360 is like taking drawers full of clothes and dumping them all in one chest. The opposite is taking a chest full of clothes and organizing them into drawers. Which one do you think takes longer but ultimately makes life easier when you need to get dressed?

marinelife93548d ago

I don't have any problem with a developer complaining about PS3 architecture if they were coming out with something that looked like Killzone or Heavy Rain. But The Wheelman??

STIKUP ARTIST3548d ago

I thought the game looked pretty good.

Ju3548d ago

class stream
{
platform *p;
public:
operator<<( const char* c );
};

stream a;
a << "no matter what platform";

Go learn programming.

edgeofblade3548d ago

But they say "develop on the PS3 first because it's a pain to use". That's not exactly a shining recommendation. I would make me want to develop for 360.

doomster713548d ago

I love articles like this on N4G. It's like watching my two kids (one and two years) squabbling over who gets the ball first.

IdleLeeSiuLung3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

I love postings like this because it gives me more insight into the struggles of console development. Now I don't know all these fanboys (either side) is fighting, yet most of these (if not all) know nothing about it. Excuse me if I take the word of a (or should I say many) developer over a bunch of random fanboy comments here.

I'm just going to wait for KZ2 coming out in the next few days, then Lost Planet 2!

SiLeNt KNighT3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

if you grew up playing fps games then one day all of a sudden started playing racing games, OBViosly its going to seem more difficult at first until you learn how to play it. as a programmer your job is to learn how to do new things and evolve with technology. new things are harder to grasp for some people (aka Himmerick). some people are amazed that we as non developers can call them lazy but to me im amazed some you can be such tools and just listen to anything you hear. instead use that little thing called common sense you were born with. newer things take time to learn. its easier to do what you already know...new is generally better...new is harder to make. you gotta admit one thing: Himmerick makes a valid point for a retard.

Real Gambler3548d ago

"The Xbox is just like a dumb PC, which is great because it’s easier to build a game on a PC." Lol..was it necessary to call it dumb? haha."

Well, consoles are simply the cheapest PC you can build. They don't have $400 GTX 280 GPUs, they don't have a quad core q9300 processor. No, they are built so they don't cost much to manufacture since you don't want them to cost has much as a current PC.

Microsoft went with an off the shelf processor, a very decent GPU and a standard architecture with shared memory and shared bus. As such, it is definitively what you would call a dumb PC today since even if 3 cores was awesome three years ago, it's outdated already. But the greatest thing about consoles is that the hardware doesn't change. You get used to it and you can make better games by pushing the same hardware you're been working on for years.

Sony took a different route and used the Cell (same assembly code, so nobody can complaint), but used a different way to access the GPU and address the faster GPU memory. Non standard architecture means programmers have to adapt, but with two busses, better access to everything, on paper, you get more power out of pretty similar hardware. But there's a heck of a learning curve if you've only programmed PC before.

Currently Killzone is the proof that the PS3 can deliver. But it's not over yet. In the next few years, I'm sure better games will come out for the 360. Programmers are still finding ways of pushing even it's very standard architecture. But trust me, I would bet that the PS3 non standard architecture, found on the PS3 has still a lot to show.

3548d ago
AAACE53548d ago

Since he made the comment, "If you get it to work on Ps3, it will work on 360!".... I wonder if the fanboys will quit blaming FFXIII's delay on the 360?

Probably not...

GUNS N SWORDS3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

"The claim that the PS3 has 2 separate chunks of memory is really false. The PS3's 2x 256 RAM is shareable: http://talkplaystation.com/...

the article it's self is a bit inaccurate, "talkplaystation" doesn't make games for both ps3 and 360, and the article is almost 8 months old. he's mistaking a few things, the CPU will always need memory. the GPU can not just take memory from the CPU if the CPU needs it. (that's basically saying that CELL is 2nd compared to the RSX in terms of needs, false which is why they were separated in the first place, so that their needs do NOT conflict) and the GPU and CPU memory aren't synchronized they both run with different purposes at different bandwidths. (GDDR3, XDR)

(the CPU's memory was designed to work closer to cell's needs, CELL is a little bit more than the RSX which is why it was given faster memory, the RSX was designed to work with GDDR3 cause that's how it's architecture was made in 06, all GF7s chips came with at least 256 of GDDR3)

ps3's memory is NOT like 360's, they're both different, truth.

also to keep note on, Ubisoft and 2k games have already made the same claim in the past, along with a few other developers and now with this developer, so the problem is still present.

GUNS N SWORDS3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

here, here is something to read and it's only 1 month old, rather than blocking out the truth about ps3 and 360 and overriding it, read it first.

coming from a good community who i know very well.
http://on-mirrors-edge.com/...

3548d ago
MNicholas3547d ago

the 360 is a lot easier for developers. The problem is that he is still stuck in the old mindset that sees the seperate memory pools as an obstacle rather than an advantage. That's the kind of thing that causes the huge performance gulf between second rate developers like this one and first-rate developers like Polyphony Digital and Guerrilla Games.

BkaY3547d ago

ND: hey INSO and GG, is that wheelman dev team..
INSO AND GG : yep...
GG : r they the one who said @ps3 is pain in the [email protected]
ND and INSO : yep..
GG : what an azz nuggets..
ND : hey lets point and laugh.

mega BIG time3547d ago (Edited 3547d ago )

Are you ps3 fannies daft?? Regardless if you only own the ps3, and have an inflated sense of responsibility to bash anyone who criticizes your console, most of these developers aren't attacking the PS3. They are simply stating the PS3 is MORE DIFFICULT TO WORK ON. Now quit cher b!tchin!

---
With that being said.. Crappy PS3 port here we come!

+ Show (43) more repliesLast reply 3547d ago
Death3548d ago

"Anyone making a game, if you're going to make it for both [360 and PS3], just lead on the PS3 because if it works on the PS3 it'll work on 360"

I can only guess they started this project before the rest of the world figured this out. The N4G community with all it's faults already knew this. I guess this puts us all ahead of the curve.

-Death

Mike134nl3548d ago (Edited 3548d ago )

"if it works on the PS3 it’ll work on 360"
Thouh from what I have seen the graphics don't seem that spectacular.

The Lazy One3548d ago

in early 2006 to be exact. So yes, they did start it before it was common knowledge to lead on the PS3.

The Lazy One3548d ago

It started development in february 2006.

Ldubbz3548d ago

So again, its no problem to program for the PS3 and go back to the 360, but starting with the 360 will give you issues with the PS3.

Im no programmer, but common sense tells me that the PS3's architecture is limited for games, meaning you CAN get great performance, but you really have to optimize and use every trick in the book, something many devs either dont have the manpower for and/or are unfamiliar with.

The 360 on the other hand can easily take whatever you throw at it, even if it started on the PS3, because with the 360 the power is very accessible and doesnt require you to jump through hoops.

Nothing new to see here, move along folks...

beavis4play3548d ago

end sarcasm.

come on man, look at the ps3 line-up for '09 and tell me the ps3 is "limited" for games. and then look at what the 360 is offering for this year and tell me where are all the amazing titles.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 3548d ago
Beg For Mercy3548d ago

DUMB PC THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT IT WAS

TriforceLightning3548d ago

That must make the PS3 the dumb media center pc.