Why Avowed Doesn't Feature Traditional Classes

Game Rant chats with Avowed's game director about the deliberate decision to exclude traditional RPG classes, despite having them at one point.

[anast]

" Avowed a standalone game that doesn't force Pillars of Eternity onto its players."

I wanted Pillars to be a huge part in the game. I mean I did spend an insane amount of time playing the first 2.

"The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim, which Avowed was initially inspired by, doesn't lock players down to a specific class."

This was one of the reasons why Skyrim was so shallow. Not one decision I made in the game mattered.

"Avowed somewhat lowers the barrier to entry while offering depth to those who want it."

They would have to be real world wizards to pull this off. But honestly, it sounds like they removed the RPG from their RPG.

[Christopher]

I'll not just disagree but will provide a response to you. On your last item, you only see what you consider to be an RPG need removed but I don't feel you see the other RPG elements added in (for example, not locking people to classes is seen as more pro-RPG in that it lets you decide throughout rather than control from the get-go). On your second item, using the logic of how it doesn't lock players to a specific class is kind of a leap of logic to assume that no choices will matter in the game as a whole.

I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

[Julion0715]

He hates everything Xbox, he was just in a south of midnight preview hating on that game too. It’s just what he does

[Armaggedon]

What does it matter.

[anast]

@Christopher, thank you

'Yes/no' are strictly defined in video games (with TTRPGs there is more flexibility). The 'no' is the interesting stuff in all stories and games. Less 'no' means more 'yes'. Too much 'yes' is not an RPG and likewise the other way around. I suppose we can imagine it like, but not exactly, a bell curve or something similar to rolling dice in a TTRPG.

- No classes means less 'no' which means less stuff for the world to react to.

- Lowering the barrier also means even less 'no' and once again less stuff for the world to react to.

- Not using much of the lore also means less 'no', which means less- less stuff for the world to react to.

All of this combined with the direct comparison to Skyrim, the 'yes/no' stuff, and not too mention Outer Worlds is a shallow game too is my reasoning behind this. But, once again, I did not say it was impossible. I said it will be highly unlikely.

@Julion

It's like we are speaking the same language but not speaking the same language at the same time. I read the words and I know what they mean, but at the same time I don't understand you. Your look on things is strange to me, which is fine too, of course.

[Daeloki]

It seems like you keep saying RPG without actually knowing what RPG means...

[Christopher]

*** - No classes means less 'no' which means less stuff for the world to react to. ***

I think this is otherwise.

Specific classes sets you on a path for you with one of three 'varieties'. Open classes force you to mix and match broadly or specialize specifically. And it tends to be more skill focused. The Outer Worlds both punishes you and rewards you for higher skill trainings as you progress. Less options are available to you if you don't prioritize dialog options, or you don't prioritize medical, or you don't prioritize tech, etc.

Removing forced class selection typically means a more nuanced way of integrating your way into the world.

I 100% agree that Skyrim doesn't do this. But there are more games that prove it can be done correctly.

[anast]

Now we are down to one objection.

"Removing forced class selection typically means a more nuanced way of integrating your way into the world."

What games are those?

[Christopher]

@Anast: As mentioned above, The Outer Worlds as well as Cyberpunk 2077, Shadowrun Returns, Elex 1/2, Wasteland series, every Fallout game but primarily Fallout: New Vegas. That last one is notable, as an Obsidian developed game, to account for how well written and designed it is compared to Bethesda games in the same series even though it is a class-less game but takes into account so much about your skill choices in the world and with NPCs.

[anast]

@Christopher

-Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG they even changed the terminology around this game.

-Shadowrun you are forced to choose races which have attributes.

-Wasteland you are forced to chose Pharmacy, Mechanics, Stealth, Handgun, Gunsmith. Of course, you can dip. There are very few RPGs that don't let you dip in other classes.

-I will give you Fallout New Vegas, even though people end up playing a class at the end of the day.

If Avowed is like Fall Out New Vegas, I will be wrong. But they way the game is being talked about I don't see this happening.

[Christopher]

*** -Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG they even changed the terminology around this game. ***

Oh, I vehemently disagree with this. I'll accept we obviously have very different opinions on what makes an RPG.