Whatever Happened to Destructible Environments?

There was a time, not too long ago, when destructibility was a major selling point in games.

[isarai]

CPU limitations, from the ps3/360 era to the ps4/xb1 there really wasn't an improvement to the CPUs. This gen we got a massive upgrade, but it won't be till games completely abandon last gen that we can begin to see stuff like physics and destruction becomes a focus again.

[IamTylerDurden1]

I blame the companies that pushed native 4K and specs for stagnating innovation. Even with RTX the focus is all about visuals rather than how u interact with the world. Yes, the limited CPU evolution/GPU played into it but that was driven by the resolution/fidelity push which started with 1080. Then the native 4K movement circa Scorpio was particularly bad. It helped solidify a precedent and the ironic thing is that resolution alone still doesn't create beauty. The best looking games were not native 1080 or 4K resolution this gen or last. Ryse, The Order, GoW or Spiderman 2018, TLOU2, Demon's Souls, R&C, Horizon, etc.

[Binarycode]

I agree with both parts of the argument tbh.

But the Cell processor actually a very good processor for it's time and for the right dev could be made to sing.

But the 360/PS3 era was lacking because of GPU power.

Whereas the PS4 was lacking CPU power vs GPU. That's why many games now that still run on the PS4 still look decent. Although some games have dropped rez.

I always remember speaking to the DRIVECLUB DEV. and he told me that the game could not run at 60fps not all the time because of the PS4 CPU, he said the GPU was easily running the game at 1080p and they had headroom. the game unlocked was 40-60fps. But they decided to lock to 30fps.

Now with PS5 it has plenty of grunt in both cpu/gpu/ram/ssd etc. But other things come into play. RAYRACING BEING ONE. Which hurts CPU.

Finals Destruction looks fantastic and is server side. Coming to PC/PS5/SX
https://www.digitaltrends.c...

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

I do also agree 4k is great but can be a waste, As upscaling gets better and better lower rez will be used more often. as long as the final image looks like 4k and clear and smooth 60fps gameplay. it's all good.

I really wish that Battlefield 2042 had been smaller maps then they have now and just slightly bigger then BF4 but with more destruction and levolution 2.0. I loved maps turning to waterworlds etc. added something different to the game.

[fr0sty]

Remember when magic clouds were supposed to solve this problem for us? lol

[isarai]

Oh for sure, they definitely reached a point where something had to give, and devs chose to sacrifice physics and interaction for surface level visuals for those E3 showcases. Definitely a bummer but I feel like we could be seeing a bit of a resurgence in the near future, hopefully at least. The capability is there, they just have to use it.

[blacktiger]

To me I thought everything was going to be different by looking at killzone, but after killzone all games started looking like mario 64 with better graphic. Destructible on Bad Company 2 was amazing but not enough :(

[Evan_Beezy]

But will true physics be a function of finally breaking the frontier of multicore processing in games

[Bobertt]

I disagree we had Battlefield with great destructible environments on ps3/360 and we don't even get at least that level of destructibility in more recent games. If it was the CPU we should of still have a minimum amount in games but the fact we have basically none show it's the developers who don't want to take the time to design the physics for it. Most developers don't even talk about the CPU being a bottleneck these days. They usually say it's the amount of RAM, decompression speed (XBOX/PC), or the GPU.

[SonyStyled]

Bad Company had the destructible environments that altered gameplay and made it fun. Battlefield 3 and 4 went more cod and maintained some destructibility, but it wasn’t the same.

Making a hole in a building wall for a quick exit/entry was a much easier thing to do in bad company, somehow… Can’t really explain it

[P_Bomb]

Anyone else remember Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction?

[isarai]

Would love for a new mercenaries. I feel like Avalanche would be perfect for the job honestly

[P_Bomb]

Nice! I only beat the first one, never got around to World in Flames. But yeah, I could see Avalanche in action too.

[neutralgamer1992]

Our best hope is a remake which does well so EA can maybe one day make a new one. I feel like remakes will be now used as a way to gauge interest

[EazyC]

One of my favourite games ever made. One of the very few open world games that were completely unshackled from the "GTA-vclone" label because it was so unique. It had an amazing overall vibe.

Would love to see a new one. RIP Pandemic Studios :(

[generic-user-name]

Loved the first, the sequel had troubled development and ended up disappointing though.

[mkis007]

It was amazing for its time. Red faction guerilla + mercenaries is the game i want to play.

[TheColbertinator]

Mercenaries was my bread and butter for years and this was true for both games

[DafunkyRebel]

Closes we'll ever get to another Mercenary game is Just Cause franchise

[GoodGuy09]

God I miss bad company and BF3+4

[frostypants]

BFBC2 was the pinnacle of destructibility.

[Yui_Suzumiya]

I had a blast leveling houses in Bad Company. Also it was alot of fun to destroy and rebuild stuff in Red Faction: Armageddon. It was downright therapeutic.

[BrainSyphoned]

EDF

[isarai]

EDF!

[IamTylerDurden1]

Physics, ai, animation, combat, destruction have seen surprisingly little improvement since PS3 era bc the focus has been fidelity. Even game design has been stagnant. We largely play glossier versions of the same thing going on 10-20 years.

[Evan_Beezy]

I hope they got enough multicore potential from these current gen CPUs because they didn’t even unify the 8 cores into one CCD would be cool to see them get that feature from ZEN 3 or even maybe a little x3d cache if they actually create pro models eventually of this generation. Call it Zen 2.5 X3D chips lol mobile/APU’s

[ChasterMies]

Clearly gameplay has stagnated. Halo 3 has more realistic a.i. than any contemporary game. But I wouldn’t say that gameplay and ai have suffered because of a focus on fidelity. The graphics team is separate from the gameplay team. Maybe the problem is corporate consolidation of game studios. As long as games are making a profit, no reason to innovate. If you want to see a parallel, look at the auto industry.

[IamTylerDurden1]

But they allocate far more to the visual side. They create prettier versions of what already exists. If CPU is no longer a bottleneck then why aren't we seeing more from physics etc? Framerate and res are the focus. Unreal over proprietary. Nobody experiments anymore and when they do it's for fidelity.

[sadraiden]

Go back to the Xbox/PS2/Gamecube, tell me, aside from the inclusion of online multiplayer, what, gameplay-wise, has changed since that era? How the player character accepts a quest? This is a controversial question to most people who aren't paying attention.

When you say 10-20, I definitely feel it's closer to 20. Red Faction had destructible environments in the early 00s.

[IamTylerDurden1]

Agreed. Since PS2 era game design has been stagnant. Quest design, combat, AI.

[Godmars290]

Gonna have to say, Raytracing?

[GamesAsAService]

I think it is important to view it in the following way.

For every additional unit of (any cool feature) how much additional enjoyment do you get out of it?

Generally, the more advanced something gets, the less the benefits are noticed and appreciated.

Look at the march of ever increasing resolutions.

SD --> HD (amazing!)

HD --> 4K (looks sharp!)

4K --> 8K (I think it looks sharper... I cannot really tell the difference... Let me get up close to my tv...)

Same for frame rates. 30 --> 60 feels amazing. 60 --> 144 is smoother, 144 --> After a certain point there are diminishing returns.

I suspect that the audience reaction to destruction beyond a certain fidelity is not noticed, and it costs too much in terms of performance.

Not saying it is not worth developing, but perhaps other features can have a greater impact on player enjoyment.

[P_Bomb]

It’s probably easier for them to market pretty screenshots than variable destructibility. I suplexed a guy through a table in RE4 and it was great! But most ppl probably didn’t.

[gold_drake]

i think its also because of how it has to be developed and if or how it would apply to the story that they wanna tell.

it would work well with online vs shooters, but maybe not so much with others.

but i havent rly thought about destructible environments in games tbf ha.

[Evan_Beezy]

Except 120 is quite a big difference especially for responsiveness.. don’t think I’ll ever need to go above 144 it’s just good for VRR

[mkis007]

Destructible environments can be used for an evolution in moment to moment gameplay though.

[Vengeance1138]

Definitely need a new Red Faction, the creator of destructible environments.
Black also sold primarily based on its environmental destruction capability.

[Goosejuice]

Unfortunately battlefield has taken a downturn which was one of the biggest ones.
The finals though looks pretty good and pushing destructible environments a good amount.
Red faction was one of my favorite ones though back on ps2

[chobit_A5HL3Y]

battlefield 3 was incredible. someone was hiding behind a wall: blow it up. or better yet, destroy the whole building and flush everyone out. bf4 came along and introduced the levelution stuff(or whatever it's called), but limited building destruction. everything after that was pretty much non-existent. i wish they'd remake/remaster bf3 because bf sucks ass now lol

[Crows90]

honestly I blame crackdown 3. That game was advertised as destrcutible everyhting but then fell so short it destroyed any desire for it.

[spicelicka]

Hmm I don't think that game had any impact on this subject matter. There was no desire for innovation before or after crackdown 3.

[slate91]

Random though, but always believed that Destruction would've been the next step to push Gears of War forward.

[Weallgame]

Control has a very high amount of destruction if you never played it give it a go

[343_Guilty_Spark]

I think destructible environments are cool but interactive ones are better…meaning environments where the set pieces are actually interactive instead of just there. Things as simple as doors open, lifts, security beams, gravity simulations, trains that can be boarded and move in real time.

[PhillyDillyDee]

Ray tracing took priority is my guess

[Ben Dover]

I mean... The Finals?

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[Aussiesummer]

My rtx 4090 and i9 13900k buckle you under the destruction in teardown, if they could get that level of destruction in more games but somehow make it more performant that would be amazing.

[kryteris]

PS4 support.

[DafunkyRebel]

I remember playing Red Faction and thinking the future of gaming was set. And now looking at it, I lament having been born at all

[Rainbowcookie]

Raytracing became a thing?

[Einhander1971]

Nonsense about CPU limits, I would say PS3/360 had more games with plenty of destruction. The Havoc engine was all the rage. Unfortunately its all about 4K 60fps, and trying to create the most biggest boring open world possible.

[Yui_Suzumiya]

Amen!

[BlackDoomAx]

Because people almost always value aesthetic more.

[contra157]

Too much of a push for 4k which eats up a ton. Of space instead of pushing for more on the details

[Furesis]

It takes more development time, expensive, higher likely hood things will break when u have more stuff in your game, visuals might take a small hit, there are reasons why, especially when most wont think about stuff like this. And in some games u don't want that since it can break the game balance etc.
I'm all for it if and when it makes sense but i don't see publishers spending time and money for something like this especially now when so many games launch with issues to begin with.

[DefenderOfDoom2]

I remember playing the first RED FACTION around 20 years ago on PS2 and was impressed with some of destructible environments but other games over the next 20 years really did not mess with that feature much . Too bad because it makes for a great combat mechanic.

[DefenderOfDoom2]

Rainbow Six Siege uses it as a mechanic with collapsible walls .

[Abear21]

Tired PC gamers buying consoles and saying 60fps or bust on all teh forums. Aka crypto made graphic cards used car prices

[SpacedDuck]

Developers got lazy.

[VariantAEC]

"Developers got lazy."
I hate to say it, but this reason actually makes the most sense out of everything I've read here.

So many blame increasingly impressive visuals, but they ignore Killzone, Uncharted and The Last of Us on PS3 and PS4 plus the fact that games such as Red Faction: Guerilla was re-released on the supposedly weaker Jaguar-powered now last-gen machines PS4 and Xbox One only to run at twice the framerate at Full HD instead of 720p or below with a poorly maintained 30FPS target as the original PS3 Xbox 360 releases managed.

The game looks and runs better on what are now last-gen machines but these ultra taxing games managed to look and run better on PS4 and Xbox One when those machines had supposedly far weaker CPUs? How is that possible? Well maybe the CPUs were not as weak as people believed but also maybe newer GPU compute made up for.much more than the difference. Regardless the fact is that some devs had far nicer looking games and only turned up the level of destruction and AI interactivity with each release. I haven't even played TLoU2, but i can see very clearly that it features more interactivity and better AI than the original game along with far better looking visuals than the first game. How did that happen if PS4 was so weak? Some will argue 'they fell back to 30FPS' and that is true but some of the games with the best destructiblity also were limited to 30FPS on PS2/3/4, Xbox/360/One, and even PCs of the day arguably... so what point is anyone really making here.

The reality is the technologies which allowed such things to happen only improved as time marched on and few devs motioned to keep up in that department. The focus on visuals may keep some devs from implementing such things but the core HW is definitely not to blame look at The Callisto Protocol, TLoU1 Remake, Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart, Horizon: Forbidden West and now even the VR exclusive Horizon: Call of The Mountain on PS5.

The limiting factor now, is developers themselves, not the underlying hardware their games are running on.

[randomvoice]

Man Red Fraction Guerrilla was so much fun to play back in the day! Wish they made more games like that!

[Yui_Suzumiya]

Anyone else consider it therapy to destroy and rebuild stuff for large amounts of time in Red Faction: Armageddon? 😁

[MinnesotaFatts]

It's mentioned before, but CPU limitations in the 7th and 8th Gen consoles. There was a BIG push between '09 and 2011 for greater presentation to compensate for the devalued environmental interactability--somebody at EA/DICE figured ut people were more impressed by OOH BIG SHINY or something insipid like that. Then there came the MAD DASH for 4K resolution that started with Skorpio. Look fam, I like hi-res textures and ray tracing whatever as the next guy, but I will always take performance I can see over what amounts to set dressing.

[SprigganN4G]

Jaguar APU happened, will see this gen when industry abandon last gen, UE5 and new engines that uses Zen 2 and RDNA2.

[VariantAEC]

If that were true, then please explain how Red Faction: Guerrilla Remarstered managed to run with better visuals in a higher resolution at twice the framerate with all the same destruction as on previous HW on the then current generation PS4 and Xbox One when it was re-released?