Final Fantasy 16 ditched turn-based combat to appeal to younger generations, producer says

From VGC: "Final Fantasy producer Naoki Yoshida has said that the reason Final Fantasy 16 doesn’t feature turn-based combat is so that the game will to appeal to a younger audience.

Speaking in the latest issue of Famitsu, translated for VGC by contributor Robert Sephazon, the developer said that the team had to reassess the audience Final Fantasy was appealing to.

“I’m from a generation that grew up with command and turn-based RPGs,” Yoshida said. “I think I understand how interesting and immersive it can be. On the other hand, for the past decade or so, I’ve seen quite a number of opinions saying ‘I don’t understand the attraction of selecting commands in video games’.

“This opinion is only increasing, particularly with younger audiences who do not typically play RPGs.”"

[GoodGuy09]

It's what it is. Younger generations and monkey brains will always be the priority for business unfortunately lol.

Man I'd love for them to return to turn based on a mainline FF some day just to test it out instead of testing it out on generic low budget games and spinoffs and concluding that action based is better just because of that lol.

[Gamingsince1981]

Final fantasy games have been terrible ever since they went action based, I dont get this need to make every RPG this way.

[Eonjay]

They have had so many variations to their battle systems over the years and I applaud them for not reusing the same thing over and over again. God of War switch things up and quite literally gave New Life into the series

[ZeekQuattro]

Its why I prefer DQ to FF. They have action oriented spin offs but the main games remain turn based with the exception being the DQ10 MMO.

[Eonjay]

Btw I'm 33 and I prefer Action.
Would love to know ages and preferences of others.

[shinoff2183]

@eonjay

FF battle systems typically had slight variations to them but its been horrible since they went to pure action games. I knew it all along that it was for the younger audience. The attention span just isnt really there for the young casuals hell even some of the young hardcore players..

Dude at work about 23 years old, so I showed him dq11 he was pretty interested in it. So over the next few days he is telling me about where hes at and hes pretty pumped still and enjoying it. A few weeks go by and he dropped it. Ive also seen it while observing my own kids aged18 thru 6.

Also im 38 and prefer turned based.

[Adrian_v01]

@shinoff

Got more to do with grinding and the amount of unnecessary stuff that clogs the game world. Never finished witcher 3 because of that and that's an action rpg. Got nothing to do with turn based.

[ChiefofLoliPolice]

To you. Love the new gameplay. Besides there are other turn based games to play out there. I can always play Persona, Octopath Traveler, Dragon Quest.

Although I do understand where turn based lovers are coming from. I guess FF fans don't like how westernized it has become.

[jznrpg]

I wish they would do both . I’ve always liked some good action RPGs . But I still loved a well made turn based game . Unfortunately most of turn based game lovers are older and even though we buy a lot of games they don’t see that . I’d buy any of the old turn based games updated for today if they put some love in them like they used to . So many franchises companies could use . Threads of Fate , Legend of Dragoon , FF, Dragon Warrior, Suikoden the list goes on .

[Chriswynnetbh]

Could you imagine a Threads of Fate remake?? That would be incredible. It is a shame that SE views turn based games as somehow inferior to action games. FF used to be at the top of the game when it came to turn based and the last few mainline games being not that great on top of the absolutely butchering of FFVII remake makes me question whether they will ever actually go back to their roots.

[shinoff2183]

Maybe swap them out this ff action
next turn based
next action.

I could get with that atleast

[porkChop]

At the very least I would love a new FF sub-series that featured a modern take on turn-based combat.

[neutralgamer1992]

GoodGuy09

They really don't need to do turn based anymore because the technology is there to do everything in real time

Gamingsince1981

With the amount of budget it takes to make a truly AAA Blockbuster title these publishers need and want to maximize their profits. What criteria are you using to say ever since they went real time they're bad because when the publisher is looking at the results and they see millions of copies sold that's all they care about

The days of publishers caring about metacritic or open critic or long gone

The fact of the matter is when it comes to between turn-based and real time real time is always more fun accessible and sells better

But if you do like turn bass good thing is right now there are a lot of options in gaming for everyone to be excited about something to play

[shinoff2183]

@neutralgamer1992

Can you explain why the highest selling final fantasy us turn based if its so bad?

Also keep in mind the amount of gamers back then is dwarfed by the amount of people that play games these days.

[neutralgamer1992]

you guys are missing the point. You both said best selling FF were truned based yet it's a small sample size. look at how many releases were turned based vs how many we have had using real time. I was speaking more from a business POV because that's what interests me. Sorry there is a business geek inside of me that will look at numbers first for some weird reason LOL

shinoff2183

no doubt that more people are playing games now but that's not the whole picture though. For example there is a stat that shows almost half of the market is of female gamers but it's only when you look deeper you realize over 40% of those female gamers play on mobile (aka candy crush etc)

ps360owner09

FF15 was the biggest launch in series history and has sold more than 10 million copies and FF7 remake sold 5 million in under 4 months

SE could have but they also had the right to try something new and grow the fanbase by your same logic don't they?

let me just say this one thing which will no doubt bug a lot of people:

THis is a business for companies. If they can generate extra 500K they are willing to do that. we don't realize that game devs also prefer that because their bonuses are attached to number of copies sold

[Pretentious]

As a huge fan of the original Final Fantasies.... I'm tired. I can't fight this fight anymore. Turn-based was better but no one cares. Oh well.

[gamer7804]

This ff looks sub par to me anyways. Not a fan of the setting or graphic style.

[Adrian_v01]

It's pretty much ff vi setting with modern graphics

[Adrian_v01]

Tbh you don't need more than monkey brains for turn based either

[ChiefofLoliPolice]

I'm fine without the turn based aspect of it. Like FF7 remake for example I love how you can keep the hack and slash gameplay but you can still have stop time in game and plan out your next move using the ATB system. It's a perfect middle ground.

[-Foxtrot]

I don't understand, that's a shitty way to look at it

When you have your old school fans you'll always be relevant, no matter how many years go by and sooner or later gamers from younger generations will pick up on the series, especially gamers who are so involved in the scene that they are always up to date with gaming news.

If you want to chase new, younger fans then do spin off games, and if they don't do well then that's unfortunately an internal problem who haven't done a good job at reaching out to them.

This isn't a dig at FF16 but in general, too many studios are using the main core series to chase the younger crowd and trends where the franchise starts to loose it's core roots, basically turning into a new IP with the franchises name slapped on it

Yakuza Like a Dragon, Persona, Dragon Quest, Octopath Traveler for example have shown that people still like turn based games so I don't get their problem.

[luckytrouble]

The problem with FF specifically is that it is a very western focused series at this point, which means the population that really drives those classic styled game sales, as in Japan, is not a focus. Although there are certainly exceptions, western gaming has by and large become more focused on action styled games over the years, and those of us old enough to fondly remember the years when every RPG was turn based are an increasingly small minority in the modern gaming landscape.

If you're making a western facing RPG today and you want to sell the 10+ million copies SE is surely hoping for with FF16, you would have to be very, very, very sure of your story and characters to even have a chance at making those kinds of numbers in 2022 and beyond using a classic approach to the game design.

Saying that it's basically just a "the younger folks just don't know enough and it's the fault of the companies" issue is seriously ignoring evolving trends and the volume of gamers today that are under the age of 25 and simply missed getting the nostalgia drive of those older.

tl;dr this has strong it's not me it's the kids who are wrong energy.

[shinoff2183]

If you make a ff turn based these days maybe it will still sell well. They never really tried.

Its a slap in the face. Ff 16 they can keep it

[PapaBop]

Sadly in business, money talks, so many IPs have walked that arrogant line where they see their old school fans as a given, so focus on appealing to newer generations and fall flat on their asses.. RE6 comes immediately to mind. I have faith in Yoshi P and applaud his honesty but turn based can still be appealing, I imagine many youngsters absolutely loved Persona 5 and it's stylish turn based combat.

[shinoff2183]

Theres not enough turn based coming out to even tell if turn based will sell. Come on square put it back in ff.

Or atleast design it so you can choose

[Tacoboto]

I was listening to a podcast where they mentioned a quote similar to this and the hosts pointed out one game you skipped out on - Pokemon. Turn-based, essentially unchanged for two decades in its fundamentals, and it's appreciated by the younger generation while not declining in sales/relevance.

I like what I've seen on the FFXVI trailers but this + no-difficulty-modes makes me agree - the core roots could be gone and we're left with a game that feels designed-by-committee.

[luckytrouble]

Pokemon is an anomaly, not a standard. Anyone basing their game design decisions around that unique juggernaut is making a mistake. That's the problem with almost every example people bring up for this argument though. Persona 5? Oozing with unique style. Replication either means a lesser clone or a game that just misses the mark altogether. Yakuza 7? Heavily driven by the storytelling and character writing that defines the series, and greatly supported by the foundation of what came before it. Dragon Quest? Has always been far and away more popular in Japan and is not a good template for making a game trying to get western sales. Octopath Traveler? Probably the most niche of the popular JRPGs of the past five or six years, and like Persona is more driven by its style than its gameplay.

It would be nice if people could actually point out some kind of relevant trend in these discussions and not just point out hyper specific popular examples.

[shinoff2183]

@luckytrouble

What about dragon quest 11. Far as i know it sold pretty damn good and its turn based. It can still be done. Final fantasy would still sell well being turn based. I cant be the only one out there that damn near almost didnt play ff15 until the royal edition was on sale for 15 dollars. If it was turn based and more ff like it would of been day one for me. dq11 was day one and it was great. Way better then any ff ive played since 9

I just noticed what you said about dq. Im pretty sure dq11 nailed sales in the west outside of japan. People want turn based to

[VenomCarnage89]

Pokemon literally goes out of it's way for turn based fighting to actually make sense, it's baked into the story itself and it's the only game I've ever seen to do so.
I mean for real, how would Pokemon transition to action rpg in the first place? You're a person telling your Pokemon what to do, it wouldn't work. We're absolutely talking about the exception and not the norm with that one

[Gardenia]

It's true but Final Fantasy's problem isn't only the turned based system. Everything about single player Final Fantasy is mediocre for over 20 years now. Except for FFXII, that one still felt like a Final Fantasy game. To me FFXVI looks more like a Devil May Cry set in the middle ages than a Final Fantasy game.

I really enjoyed Dragon Quest XI. It's proof that you can combine modern and classic and have a great game.

[Terry_B]

yeah..I'll just ditch FFXVI in favour of any good turn based j-rpg's releasing as well. FF, the main series kinda sucks since FF13 anyway.

[Eonjay]

Don't respond to sensationalist headlines. Nothing was ditched. Careful thought went into the decision. In addition he stated FF16 has sales expectations from Square. The goal was to make a good game that could also sale. Square more than anyone else has done the research and carried out the opinion polls that would provide insight into what people actually want and will act in a way that gives them an opportunity to be both profitable and relevant.

[Pretentious]

FF10 was the last masterpiece. FF12 was decent. FF13 was the beginning of the end.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

FF13 was turn based. I loved the ability Paradigm Shift as well.

FF15 was the end.

[_Decadent_Descent]

The end started with FF VIII.

[gamer7804]

I liked the ff13 series over 15 by far. And looks like 16 will follow 15s downward spiral

[LordoftheCritics]

Im not young exactly but I'm glad its not turn based.

SE is blaming the age group instead of the reality in the numbers. Real time is wayyyyy more popular than turn based.

[Eonjay]

Square isn't blaming them. The article is seeking to create tension amongst age groups for clicks but Square here speaks in terms of researched findings. The producer is stating the facts as they are.

[LordoftheCritics]

Producer is stating his opinion not just facts.

The fact of the matter is real time action has been dominating the game space for a long time for good reason.

From regular GOTY for the past decade and more to all best selling titles to even the most popular titles.

Theres so much to real time, in terms of immersion, immediacy, reflex, etc other aspects of the gameplay systems that turn based systems dont allow. Turn based has its own fun for sure but its missing too many of the great aspects of what makes real time action that good.

For eg. Elden Ring as a turn based would be a completely different experience and I don't think it would feel as gratifying as real time when your personal finely tuned observation, reflex etc is not coming into use.

And again the Dragon Age series or Elder Scrolls or even non rpg games. Real time is real time. Analyze it and it will make sense.

So it may not just be the producers past alone, it could be the devs who want real time, the investors, the other team members, the gamers statistics, the reality of games today, the potential of real time action gameplay in FF games etc etc etc

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

To be fair, Final Fantasy can just sell on brand name alone, we lost alot of staples from the series like mini games and towns, ect... Plus the Stories and characterization just took a nose dive after 10.

I don't believe it would matter if it's action or turn-based, it would probably sell the same.

[Elda]

I'm old school..Gen X & I love action jrpgs. I prefer action battle systems over turned-based when it comes to jrpgs. The last turned-based battle system from Final Fantasy I enjoyed was FFXIII though I enjoyed the turn base jrpgs Persona 5 & Dragon Quest XI. I enjoyed the battle system in FFXV including games like Scarlet Nexus,Persona 5 Scramble & Tale Of Arise. FFXVI battle system looks like it's going to be quite fun.

[luckytrouble]

Haters out in force with the immediate disagrees. This is basically my viewpoint as well. The original KH introduced me to action RPGs at a young age where I was also enjoying games like Legend of Dragoon and FFIX, and these days I can easily enjoy both as long as they're done well, with a definite lean towards action because it just often feels more immediately engaging. FFXVI is shaping up to have a very good battle system, and I'm game for it.

[Elda]

Absolutely! Let the (stuck in a rut) haters hate. I agree we can have both battle systems when done right such as turned jrpg base games like DQ & Persona & we can have the action jrpg games like the latest Tales,Star Oceans,the FF Remakes including the Souls/Borne games. The big wigs at S-E that run the FF division have evolved the battle systems to action & if one doesn't like it don't buy it..plain & simple. I can't wait to play FFXVI!!

[PapaBop]

Are Gen X now considered old school? *beep* I'm getting old.

[Elda]

Folks that were kids in the 70's playing video games throughout the late 70's up until now are old school brought up by parents that are old school. That's about 45+ years ago,if you were born at the start of Gen X that's 57 years ago,more than half a century.

[CS7]

Yeah most of my friends never played FF in the PS1 era because “choosing attacks (from a menu) is boring”.

I can see the appeal from a business perspective to capture a large audience.

Final Fantasy has also always aimed to be a cinematic game. Turn based attacks is anything but cinematic.

[CrimsonWing69]

Um… correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t they use cinematic camera angles during turn-based battles ever since the series went 3D to, um, make them cinematic?

[shinoff2183]

Your exactly right crimson

[CS7]

Nothing as cinematic as three characters standing in a row waiting to attack…

[Eonjay]

While that is true., No battle system in the series is as cinematic as FF7:R by a country mile and that is action based. Also FF7 OG isn't turned based. It is command based as he alluded in the interview.

[_Decadent_Descent]

Who the fuck ever said FF was supposed to be cinematic?? FF has always been about being an RPG and having strategy built into its core gameplay. FF was well established long before the PS1 even existed.

[pietro1212]

They’ve been heading in that direction since FFXIII, multiple members said various times their goal is to make a game as fast paced as the action seen in Advent Children. They even hinted at that future with the announcement of FFXIII

[CrimsonWing69]

The producer is an idiot.

Turn-based is a style of gameplay that any age can get into. It’s like saying we made Chess real-time for younger players…

Also, quite a lot of opinions against turn-based, huh? Guess you’re fine ignoring the many opinions from people who prefer it. What a joke…

What this guy is showing me is that Square Enix is flat-out refusing to bring their games back to turn-base because of some wild hare they have up their a** making them think it’s archaic design.

Guess younger generations couldn’t enjoy Persona 5. Only us old folks here keeping them alive.

Also, isn’t Ever Crisis turn-based? Why the hell would you choose that for mass market appeal if younger generations hate it? This guy is so full of sh*t!

[shinoff2183]

I enjoyed dq 11 more then i have enjoyed a ff game since ff9. Dq11 was damn near perfect

[VonAlbrecht]

Yeah, the guy who produced and shipped the best-grossing Final Fantasy title of all time, an idiot. And you, a genius! They should just fire Yoshi P and put you in his place. I'm sure you'd ship the best selling Final Fantasy ever made, with your absolute luddite mentality towards modernity and change.

Just because you prefer something, doesn't mean it needs to be done again and again. Not every Final Fantasy game is for every fan. You prefer turn-based? That's great. Some people prefer old muscle cars with horrible fuel economy. There's a reason why those cars don't get made anymore, but they still exist for enthusiasts to purchase and drive - much like the older turn-based Final Fantasy titles.

[CrimsonWing69]

Yea after reading his reasonings for making design decisions, yes he’s an idiot.

I don’t give a sugar frosted f*ck that he took an MMO that was horrible and took out everything that everyone complained about to make it better.

[pietro1212]

Yoshi P is an idiot.. the dude responsible for saving the franchise? Yeah, I’m going to listen to you over the guy who produced one of the best FF games.

[CrimsonWing69]

Let’s break this down, seriously… why do you think he was able to save an MMO? Is it because A) They did what they wanted, or B) They listened to people’s feedback and changed everything that people were upset about?

Turn-based is not archaic design. There’s plenty of highly successful JRPGs that use it, so the whole “it doesn’t appeal to a younger generation” is utter garbage.

Final Fantasy does not need to evolve into an action game. You can do spin-offs and experiment with mechanics like that all you want, but the main-line entries (not MMOs or spin-offs) should keep the style and the mechanics that define the series. Evolution is fine, but not straight up eliminating how it used to play. I don’t come to Final Fantasy for a Devil May Cry experience.

I’m not going to kiss this guy’s ass just because he changed the course of a failed MMO. Clearly reading his perspective of where this series should go in this interview makes me think a lot less of him.

Also, how contradictory is it that Ever Crisis isn’t an action game? That’s straight up turn-based and is banking on being popular to make money on all the gacha crap. Clearly, if turn-based was so archaic and unappealing they wouldn’t have chosen that.

Here’s the other thing, when you have such a division between fans, why the hell don’t you just incorporate the hybrid battle system that FF7 Remake has? That was great, imo. It gave the best of both worlds.

So, yea, he’s an idiot.

[pietro1212]

Dude,
You’re mad because the guy successfully did his job? Make that make sense, “ A) They did what they wanted, or B) They listened to people’s feedback and changed everything that people were upset about? “

As for the action oriented direction they’ve been heading that direction since the initial announcement of FFXIII. Kitase Even said they were aiming to capture the intense action Advent Children had. So why is this new to everyone? I’m not saying turn base is archaic, I never once said that. FF hasn’t been fully turn based since FFV with the exception of FFX. I’m not saying I agree with him about the younger generation thing, but I’m not going to pass off what’s shaping up to being the best FF since XII and A Realm Reborn (which has the best story in a FF game). I’m not just hyping it up just because of Yoshi P, I’m excited for the whole team involved. Former Bus Devision 4 members, Quest. The only thing FFXVI is missing is Yasumi Matsuno, but I’m happy with Kazutoyo Maehiro. Not every Final Fantasy is going to be for everyone and you should get over it. Not every mainline FF is turn based, ATB is command based just like Chrono Trigger.

[Lexreborn2]

Don’t worry old school guy, in about 2-3 decades it won’t mater how angry you are. The kids this is meant to appeal to will be the ones posted and half of you will be dead to care.

[Shinox]

As a producer the moment you said stuff like this to justify your decision to your core audience you are literally shitting on your brand in general, not only that you are spitting on your core fanbase face and treat them as disposables for the cost of thinking that you are appealing to a wider audience , this is a self-destructive mentality coming from a company that doesn't have faith in their fanbase , the same shit SE is doing is exactly what Capcom been doing with RE and the whole fixed camera + pre-rendered backgrounds gameplay style

[shinoff2183]

Thats been clear for sometime. I just think not all but younger people dont have the attention span that us older people had when we were kids. Especially with their phones.

I knew that was the exact reason. Well square your starting to lose some of us that prefer turn based

[LordoftheCritics]

You mean younger people want to waste less time.

[shinoff2183]

@lordofthecritics

Lol your funny. Younger people want to waste less time. When most are not buried face in phone their watching others play games.

[VenomCarnage89]

@shinoff wasting time is in the eye of the beholder, we're all just gonna be dust regardless of if we changed the world or simply stared at the wall, the individual decides which was the time waste.
That said, I'm in my mid 30s and agree on their poor attention span in general, but aside from Pokemon (the only game I've seen where turn based actually went out of it's way to make feasible sense,) I have hated turn based my entire life as well, and attention span has nothing to do with it for me. It has everything to do with pulling me straight out of the immersion in order to take forever to make decisions that I would only have a quarter second to make in real life. I just don't get the appeal in pausing time in order to slowly make said decisions, that and it doesn't make me feel like a strategist of any kind. High level strategy is associated with IQ after all, and high IQ is highly associated with being able to make accurate decisions *quickly,* as far as I'm concerned RTS doesn't correlate to anything in terms of mental capability in this context. Like it if you like it, but there's several good reasons not to like it that aren't "they're too goldfish minded to handle it"

[omegademonchaos]

Heres hoping for a new ff tactics

[_Decadent_Descent]

Should check out The DioField Chronicle if you haven't already. It's a Square tactical as well.

[autobotdan]

Out with the old generation and in with the new generation- Naoki Yoshida

[whitbyfox]

Let’s hope the combat is like Bayonetta and not Devil May Cry then.