Jon Burton "In this episode of Coding Secrets I look at how the Rift Gameplay in Ratchet & Clank can be achieved on much older hardware with no SSD. Don't agree?"
But at what level? Even if it’s possible it wouldn’t be anywhere near the extent of the PS5 levels.
Exactly. 'Store both alternate dimensions in RAM at 100th the quality? See it works! ' No. It doesn't. You need a fast SSD for this fidelity. PS3 (and PS4) LODs would be trash.
There is a lot of PR into that and ps5 is optimized to take advantage of SSD… but ps3 is also a very special piece of tech that still remains a mystery today..
The question should really be "Can you run Ratchet and Clank PS4 (2016) but also add in switching between levels within a second?". The answer is no, so there's no lie. On top of all that, Insomniac also made a game that looks better than every other console game out there, even including performance demanding tech like raytracing. I imagine this clever guy knows this but figured it'd be an awesome clickbait video.
There are two separate uses in this game being discussed. The first are the pocket dimensions. They are standard viewport hacks as described by Insomniac in its interview with Digital Foundry. This technique is quite common and Insomniac in no way asserted that it was because of the SSD. They were very clear. The second are full dimension teleporting. These are not possible on the PS3 or PS4. These are instances where an entire level is loaded into memory from SSD in what is practically an instant. These are not persistent in memory. They are actually loaded on the fly, quite literally. There is no way the older consoles could stream this amount of data so quickly. The PS4 drive could achieve like 100 MB/s. With Compression on PS5 this reaches 9GB/s This is a gigantic jump gen on gen. Imagine if there was a similar 50x jump to the GPU? Thats the kind of advantage PS5 SSD has over PS4 HDD.
Isn't saying that the PS3 could run Rachet as is, more disingenuous then saying the SSD makes it only possible on PS5? FYI companies say this all time. "Such and such is only possible on ________ console" When in reality you could always scale stuff back to make it possible. Last of Us II for example could run on PS3 if you scale back quality, but I don't think anyone would take issue with Sony saying it's only possible on PS4 hardware, besides Jon Burton maybe.
If you are scaling back to run on something and cutting content/level design to make it work. It’s not possible. The last of us 1 remastered on PS4 is not possible on ps3. PS3 could only output 720p 30. PS4 could do 1080p 60 and pro did 4K none of which is possible on PS3. Since PS3 and ps4 days devs have been saying the limits of the devices stop them from innovative ideas. Rocksteady wanted the bat mobile in Arkham city. It wasn’t possible on 360 and PS3. But it was fully realized on PS4 and Xbone. Rift apart would have to be butchered to make it work on PS3 that’s not the same game if you have to butcher it.
"Rift apart would have to be butchered to make it work on PS3 that’s not the same game if you have to butcher it." Which is my point. It's ironic that this guy Burton is accusing Sony of "lying" while saying that Rift Apart can run on PS3 which in itself is a "lie." "If you are scaling back to run on something and cutting content/level design to make it work. It’s not possible." I agree with that and should have made it more clear. I'm saying that if you're gonna say that game can run on old hardware if you cut back "such and such" or do something differently to achieve similar yet inferior effect then you can say that about any game. Was using Last of Us as an example in saying Burton (or any one of us) wouldn't dare say that Last of Us II is possible on PS3, yet he said it here for Rift Apart which is silly.
It's the same with the Nintendo switch to get games to run on that you get a lower resolution/graphic setting version of the game. And tbh it is the same game. Not the same experience. Its once you cut content out that's where the game is not the same. The game is the puzzles, the controls, the levels. A game isn't the graphic level. We grew up not caring about graphics because you could experience a game with low quality graphics and be amazing. Where as you could have a rubbish/bare bones game that looks great.
One thing I do know is R&C could run on current gen consoles . This magic ssd was either a flat out lie or extremely exaggerated and misleading.
Is this guy Phil Spencer? Talk is cheap!
This whole video is completely BS. The amount of data in the pipeline is multiple times larger than what it was in PS3 era, it is tenfold or hundred fold, depending on the game.
Lol I highly doubt that.
But is that really a dog at next generation consoles or ssd? Because PS3 was quite powerful for it's time. Jak and Dexter didn't have load screens and that was on PS2. I am ready for days of no load screens. When I played HZD fast travel took over a minute to load and that's one of my favorites games of all time
To say "the exact same thing" is massively disingenuous here. Miles Morales is on PS4, but those instant reloads and whatnot are not on there at all. Both are loading environments, but why can't they load that environment as quickly and seamlessly as you can on PS5? Obviously there *something* there that makes it possible. R&Ccan absolutely run on PS4/PS3, but those on rail scenes to control loading would be much longer as would those scenes where it's not on rails would suddenly have loading screens or loading animations/scenes.
There is a level in Titanfall 2 named Effect and Cause. The previously mentioned level allows players to nearly instantly switch between two different variants of the same map due to rapid time travel. When switching time periods, enemies and the overall environment change. Titanfall 2 was released last gen for the XB1 and PS4. I’m not a game developer. I don’t think it is not unreasonable to state that Rift Apart maybe technically possible on the PS4 with increased loading and decreased visuals. However, the smooth,rapid, essentially loading free transitions between world and dimensions of an integral feature of Rift Apart.
That was a very cool lvl in Titanfall 2. The entire campaign was slick.
Titanfall 2 reminded me of Half-Life 2, every level was unique.
I haven't played Ratchet yet so do you Rift into totally different environments? I've seen videos where the scenery changes from city to jungle in seconds. Because in Titanfall 2(that I've beaten) the level that is brought up all the time is just a cosmetic change to the same environment. Facility in the present ruined but still just the same environment and the Past where the same environment is cleaner. They do the same in dead space with hallucinations when the same room will all of a sudden have a bunch of extra assets appear out of nowhere but it is just the same room. I don't think we can call it the same thing. PS. Titanfall 2 Campain is totally underrated and super cheap. Pick it up.
Yep, exactly this! As excellent as that level and the whole campaign was, it was much less resource-intensive than loading in brand new environments
You can not only step through a portal into a totally new environment and back again, you can stand there and see that environment before you step into it and even walk around the portal behind it while remaining in the original environment and see there nothing on the back of the portal, meaning that yes it is not some cheap trick where it's essentially the same environment already loaded with a different aesthetic. It really is loading in a completely new level in an instant.
The only places where you go into totally different environments is the on rails level that this video shows. Otherwise the portals just zoom you around the level, and sometimes to a bonus collectable level.
Yeah in Ratchet, there's a world that you hit a crystal and it instantly changed the world. While it's the same world. It's layout is completely changed and it's loading an entirely different stage. There's a big difference between it and little tricks like changing textures and loading 2 areas at once in lower poly counts and shifting a character between them. There's big limitations to tricks vs legit doing it
@JustTheFax That's not true at all, there are pocket dimensions in every level where you walk through portals into completely different worlds that ar just instantly there. Also as @Teflon says there are levels where you smack a crystal and the whole world changes in a flash instantly.
If you read on what devs commented on Ratchet & Clank they commented on many of the assets already being present as well use of simple skydomes. Watch the video and you will understand that the so called "completely different environment" really aren't what you imagine them to be.
other games have done the dual times in 1 area. what makes that different is that you're juggling some of the assets, not entirely different open world maps.
It could have certainly been on the PS4 (with rifts) but im not so sure about the PS3. Graphically sure, given how good Crack in time is but the fast loading of the rifts could have posed a problem.
In principle it would've been easier to do something similar on PS3 than PS4 (at much lower asset quality/density of course). The reason is that the ratio between mass storage bandwidth and memory was more favourable on the PS3, especially when a large portion of the game's data was installed on the HDD. The PS4 had a really bad ratio which lead to a lot of memory being wasted because assets would have to be preloaded very early. To make this work devs had to implement effective ways to predict what data will be needed. The PS5 pretty much flipped that ratio on it's head. It takes a while for game engines to catch up to the paradim shift. As we move away from the cross-gen window I expect to see the asset streaming bandwidth being utilized more freely without relying on scripted set pieces so much.
No paradigm shifted. It's just loading stuff as you approach the object it knows you will inevitably SMACK because obviously you will. It's a feature made more possible with fast SSD speeds but it's not revolutionary. It is, however, neat.
@Kavorklestein: The shifting paradign is the development environment. Ratchet & Clank is built with an early and evolving toolkit which has it's roots in the last generation. Going from 2 minutes to fill the entire memory on PS4 to just over 2 seconds on PS5 requires a complete makeover of the asset streaming pipeline. It'll take time until devs can fully unlock and utilize the PS5's potential. As cool as Ratchet & Clank is (and it is pretty cool), we haven't seen nothing yet.
that guy have to delete and reupload his video.... check the first comment on the video to know why. The guy seems to have a beef with imsoniac... maybe cause they dont hire him xD
If people don't know what this is talking about, he deleted a whole portion of the video that goes against his whole argument. That being about the crystal whacking to change environments which weren't explained by any of his other items. It was instantaneous and loaded whole new environments. But he removed it to make his argument stronger for the parts he wanted and ignored the parts where it didn't fit. Very disingenuous presentation of arguments when I found out about this. Very Anita Sarkeesian of him.
yea the guy is pathetic, a salty dev for sure, variant from youtube got him in the lie. An example from Youtube comment section: VariantAEC What is being done cannot be done without those smart optimizations he mentioned which is very different from what is being done here. What he thinks is level streaming just isn't and he does (right before ending the video admit that) so he actually is the one who is lying here. This game would not run as well without ultrafast I/O.
@ecchiless Thanks, it's nice to know some people read my comments and understand them. What annoyed me most about his video is that he does know what he's talking about but chooses to deliberately claim that the ultrafast switching to two stages would be possible as is on much slower hardware regardless. Jak III's opening cinematic shows us that couldn't happen; it would take too long.
Just imagine the amount of screen tearing the game would have on ps3 Lol
I didnt notice much on the PS3 versions. Not saying there wasnt any, but that i didnt really take notice as I was too busy having fun.
What does this even mean….
Lol at like 720p and 20 fps probably and lower textures and lower everything. Sounds like a ps3 game.
I think this is one of those things that is about efficiency over possibility, and is something we've been hearing about leading up to this generation. The Rift Mechanic could have been done via bank switching from the RAM. However, the fast speeds of the SSD allow it to act as if it is a form of RAM leading to the developers having a greater amount of RAM to work with (as they don't have to pack as many assets into it) and leads to simplicity in development.
I like the comment by Sciurus_vulgaris. It's well said. But I also like the video. I am sick and tired of everybody overhyping their crap. Everybody does it. It's a lie. It makes me sick. And I never understand why everybody just falls for the lies and accepts them. This doesn't mean whatever the developers did to make this possible wasn't great work. I hate being mislead as well. It's bullcrap and completely unnecessary if your product is any good.
Can you tell us what they lied about, or go into detail what is meant here? People are using TF2 as an example, but apparently, that's not the same thing as what was done in R&C. I don't know the insides and out of game development, but you seem to know some based on how angry you seem to be. Can you break it down in laymans terms for us that just play the games, and not develop them? Anyway, can't wait to see what Jon Burton can do. He seems to really know his stuff. Waaayyyy more than the guys at Insomniac, with all of the games under their belts that look incredible. Man, I can't wait to see Jon Burton's new game.
the video answers all your questions
But, can't you answer? The guy in the video uses soooo many big words and terms that my little gamer brain can't comprehend. If only he gave an example instead of just talking about stuff that I doubt anyone would understand. I sure hope he can back up his words in the vid, and build a world inside of a world, and make it load in real time just like in R&C. Darn, I wish Mr. Jon Burton would make a game on PS3, and show Insomniac how it's done, but conveniently, we're 2 gens away from the PS3, so Mr. Burton can't show us his awesome skills. He can only talk about a company that's already proven what they can do, while he just talks gibberish. Please save us, Jon Burton!!!
Do you even know who Jon Burton is? He made lots of games on PS3.
"I sure hope he can back up his words in the vid, and build a world inside of a world, and make it load in real time"... he did that. In the lego star wars game he talks about in the vid. Weren't you paying attention or did you just not watch the vid?
JustTheFax8h ago Do you even know who Jon Burton is? He made lots of games on PS3. Yeah he seems very creative with a diverse portfolio of true next gen graphics https://en.wikipedia.org/wi... *** 2006 Super Monkey Ball Adventure Concept consultant 2007 Transformers: The Game Concept consultant 2008 Lego Indiana Jones: The Original Adventures Director 2008 Lego Batman: The Videogame Director 2010 Lego Harry Potter: Years 1-4 Lead designer 2011 Lego Star Wars III: The Clone Wars Creative director 2011 Lego Pirates of the Caribbean: The Video Game Director 2011 Lego Harry Potter: Years 5-7 Lead designer 2012 Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes Creative director 2012 Lego The Lord of the Rings Creative director 2013 Lego City Undercover Special thanks 2013 Lego Marvel Superheroes Lead designer 2014 The Lego Movie Videogame Director 2014 Lego The Hobbit Director, designer 2014 Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham Writer 2015 Lego Jurassic World Director 2015 Lego Dimensions Creative director, designer, writer 2016 Lego Marvel's Avengers Director 2016 Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens Concept consultant 2017 Lego Worlds Concept consultant 2017 Sonic 3D: Director's Cut Programmer*** lolol FFS son ***2001 Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex Creative director, lead designer, writer 2004 Crash Twinsanity Lead designer, programmer*** He has no knowledge of PS hardware since the PS 2 days.
"I am sick and tired of everybody overhyping their crap. Everybody does it. It's a lie. It makes me sick. And I never understand why everybody just falls for the lies and accepts them." I don't know, maybe Mike Fitzgerald (core technology dev at insomniac) touched you in an inappropriate place? I promise you, this is not even a slight issue. Jesus christ.
With a lot of compromises sure, but that fact that it would need a compromise, and this is still a launch window game and barely scratches the surface of what these consoles will do is awesome. I think maybe it can do the rift crystals thing, POSSIBLY if it stalled the transition a bit, but i highly doubt it could do the bossfights and setpieces that instantly transport you to entirely different planets, that an entirely new set of assets.
As good as the PS3 R&C games turned out... sure it could be done. And it was long rumored that RA started out on the PS4 but then rift jumped to the PS5 at the request of Sony. Keep in mind how well they did the reboot of R&C on the PS4 and you can understand the evolution of the game we got in RA. the rift points are not random, they are scripted / linear. So anything is possible if they wanted to make it happen.
Never heard this rumor but seeing insomniac has stated it was made for the ps5 with the ps5 in mind when they designed it. I call cap
can you show us the ps4 version? can the lego dev show us who is done with a ps3 dev kit? or he is gonna not do it?
Didn’t Titan Fall 2 do it? Edit: I need to scroll down before I post a comment
Claims and real world application are two different things Sony claimed PS3 could do 4D graphics after all…whatever that meant
You dare doubt Sony and their claims?
He doesn't need to, there's apparently plenty of people to do it for him.
if you dont know what it means how do you know they didnt do it?
It would be a dummied down version of the game probably also missing a bunch of stuff and probably wouldn't look as good or run as smooth. Unless a team took their time and actually reprogrammed the game for the PS3 you're comparing a PS5 to a PS3.
I am sure it could have if it was native 720p and 8 bit. Straw man of straw mans.
The titanfall 2 level is nothing like what ratchet is doing. Titanfall 2 it changes scenery to look like it's going in past the level that it snaps to is simple looking. You have no guns and it's scripted. And going back further anyone remember legacy of kain soul reaver you could change the rift but it's nothing like ratchet. You hear these articles Oh it can be done on previous hardware but nothing can be found
Those stages were also broken into several chunks... with long loading screens between each section of the level.
O, is it now buddy? O is that so, hey? Admit it, this is a pathetically desperate attempt to throw shade. Get over yourself. Start worrying about more important things in life than trying to prove to everyone that Insomniac were liars (You are attacking Insomniac employees here). I don't know why dumb controversial BS seems to follow Insomniac's games? First puddlegate, now this. It doesn't stop. The tales of franchise director sould be ashamed of himself. Go outside and lick some grass, get back to reality, I promise it's not that bad.
Prove it! I loved the PS3 but speed wasn’t its strong suit.
That's just it he can't prove it, that's why this is completely baseless and should be failed as an article.
I highly doubt it. The game looks & performs beautifully on the PS5,I doubt the PS3 could have done the same.
It couldn't all these schills are in damage control over the L3 custom cache facts that have surfaced and how much more discreet and better designed the PS5 hardware is in actuality and how a variable boost clock is actually better for gaming at 120 fps with less dips in performance.
I love it🙏
Just look at the original demon's souls and the remake. Sure it can be done but look at the loading times and FPS between the two. Imagine the new ratchet and clank on PS3. 1 minute loading times every 10 seconds 😂
The difference between trying to do this on PS3 and PS5 is complexity of per frame data, on PS5 you're not seeing transitions in LOD, you're also getting a level of detail far beyond on PS4, let alone PS3. SATA ATA allows for something like 150MB/s, PS5 5500MB/s and that isn't taking into consideration the OS streaming in the background, which requires far less of the PS5's SSD to Memory bandwidth pathway. PS3 would be streaming in less than 5MBs per frame if your having to draw only 30 frames a second, PS5 can shift around 90MBs per each of a game's 60 Frames or 180MBs per each of a games 30 frames each second. This video creator isn't mentioning how detailed objects would be, on PS3 sure you can have bland, low geometry objects, with no animations or very few changes from one frame to the next, but PS5 can take that and turn the whole thing on it's head. Sure Ratchet & Clank isn't going to be pushing the new tech to it's limits, it's an early generation game, built around an early pre-launch SDK for the most part in it's approach to how Insomniac will be able to use the technology, but it's still allowing for no shortcuts to be taken compared to what would be needed on far less demanding assets and streaming techniques on PS3 or PS4. Sure PS4 could basically allow for no loading in wide linear games like God of War 2018, but no game really ever did what Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart has done in streaming assets without the pop-in and the per scene levels of complexity, I mean it also looks like a Pixar Movie while actually moving Ratchet and Co between dimension shifting areas of Rift Apart. TBH though it isn't just a matter of these dimension shifting areas being what the new SSD streaming capabilities allow, it's per frame data loading, developers will tap into storing, reading and writing physics code to make way more complex games, with all kinds of unimaginable possibilities as new iterations of game engines and game development techniques are used. Saying that a shift to dozens of times the per frame data loading isn't making a difference is pretty stupid IMO.