Twitter thread from Neon Doctrine co-founder Iain Garner has complaints echoed and verified by numerous peers.
As a consumer on Platform X, I don't really have time for indies unless I make time for them, and most of the time they just don't grab me. I bought The Last Campfire and beat it, is that indie? Also bought Gris but haven't played it much. I'm good with Returnal and Ratchet right now, and have a huge backlog aside from that.
Referring to Playstation as Platform X is really confusing. I wish that dev didn't say that.
a bunch of amateurs think they became Kojima in one night and want their game First name on the Cover if they search Dreams can found 100ndrds games equal quality to theirs for free by real amateurs What they expect? Sony to advertise for free their buffoon games
How is that relevant to the topic at hand?
Housemarque (the developer of Returnal, the game that you are playing right now) was once an INDIE developer. Insomniac was also once an indie developer, although they made bigger games than Housemarque. So don’t discount indie devs and their games.
@King Noctis Good point with facts delivered +1
And they greatly enjoyed working with Sony on many games. So don't discount the support Sony can show Indies, but don't expect them to be able to show the same level of effort to everyone.
Yeah and those guys never bad mouthed Sony, guess they must have made games people actually liked.
“ Yeah and those guys never bad mouthed Sony” So valid criticism is now labeled as badmouthing? Why is Sony immune to criticism?
fanboysim at its finest. completely missing the bigger picture to defend a huge corporation taking everybody's money.
Most don't grab me, but I do buy them occasionally. How is that fanboyism?? Fanboyism of what? Most indies are multiplat anyway so platform is irrelevant.
This is not good news. Sony was the friend of indies with PS4. Doesn't look like they are that much of indies for PS5.
All day, like 20 different indies are showcased on playstation Twitter and YouTube.
NeoGamer232 Thank you for your concern but with hundreds of indie developers some are bound to be unhappy with few decisions. Outselling your competition and having huge chunk of the market share means they must be doing a lot of things right creating This is n4g man where Xbox showing trailers is amazing games changer move while any negative news towards Sony is doom and gloom and when that doesn't work they fall back to the very site is run by PlayStation fans Remember these news headlines: Remember fire Jim Ryan Sony hates cross play when cross play has been available on PlayStation since ps3 and when xbox360 was lead NA market they shouldn't allow cross play and that why FF14 never came to Xbox 360 at that time. Only when they were being outsold almost 3-1 they wanted playstation fanbase to accept cross play how about how dare does Sony support last generation when in PlayStation history Sony have always supported outgoing consoles for few years Forbes is basically on Microsoft's payroll to write hate articles about PlayStation What's amazing in all of this they demand better from Sony yet never demand Ms matches Sony's output on content. Because they just bought a $500 console to play older games But what do I know I only been on this site for decade plus
If you actually read the article, it seems like these indies can't even get communications with Sony. Waiting months. Is that the experience with all indies? NO. But, with some it is happening. I am not saying others are any better. And I am not saying Sony is doomed. But, they did trumpet indies as coveted with PS4 and indies flocked there It does not seem (from at least these indies) that the PS5 era is the same. Whether this is a small amount or a trend is hard to say from four indies. But, the fact that four indies are saying this is not a reason to just discount them as idiots.
Bet you're going to pay 30 dollars so you can play your ps4 game with ps5 features on your $500 console
GOULDYBOBS What $30 to play PS4 games? New console new games. Yes I would like to play some from my backlog when we are going through the usual summer dry spell. But that's all Xbox has had a dry spell from last 2 years of Xbox 360 till now. At that time it was said Ms is preparing for next generation that's why they couldn't support Xbox 360 till the end when Sony release GT6 and TLOU on ps3. And they did the same with TLOU2 and Ghost in ps5 When it comes to quality of games Xbox fans have absolutely no argument to begin with. PlayStation and nintendo make better games, that is a fact not an opinion. Once Ms matches that up and are releasing AAA games which are selling 10+ million and winning/contending for GOTY come back and talk
@neutralgamer1992 I'm talking about having to pay to unlock ps5 features for Ghost of Tushima. I don't have either console but it is clear Sony have the better games. That should not excuse them from being greedy bastards. Also I don't particularly care about indies. I would like them to receive due payment for their content but I would not be interested in playing!
It's $10 upgrade for PS4 owners and you do know they are bundling it with new expansion. These dlc expansions could cost anywhere from 20-30 dollars
Wait until you hear that they have to do the same thing for Platform Y and Platform Z!
Oh I am sure of that. AND I DON'T CARE WHAT PLATFORM IT IS.... IT IS NOT GOOD TO TREAT INDIES THAT WAY.
YOU MEAN TREAT THEM LIKE EVERY OTHER AAA BUSINESS OUT THERE? WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM?
Please read the article. They went out of their way to suggest it wasn't a platform with Gamepass (i.e. not Xbox) and other developers went on to share their own experiences with Playstation as an indie developer. So, it sounds like they don't have all of these same issues with Platform Y and Platform Z.
Sure. Those other platforms are way better. That's why you see so many Playstation Indies as a focus and telling stories of how great Sony was in helping them get their game out. Obviously, this one developer's experience speaks for all developers.
@Christopher It isn't just one developers experience. Multiple developers commented on their experiences. You know what, I'm not going to bother responding to you if you aren't going to read the article. Because clearly you haven't.
***It isn't just one developers experience. *** Doesn't change what I've said. But you're not going to address that, but instead, focus just on the words of these few people.
Funny cause Kena, Stray, and Little Devil Inside all look astounding, I cannot wait for each of those to drop soon. Also, Warframe still running strong with the support of PS5. Also, Day 1 PS5 launch with Pathfinder….I’d say they’re doing pretty well with indies so far from my perch.
By the tone of the complaining it seems like a long term issue with how Sony is organized around indi-development support. I dont get the fake outrage over this issue though, I couldn't care less about these behind the scenes issues, I'm just the end users. Very unprofessional to go on Twitter and whine about it. Most of them are claiming they don't make much money on the playstation platform anyways so why not just take you business elsewhere.
Step up Sony if true of course.
Repeat it like a robot, do it.
"the operator of a very successful console and does not have Game Pass!" Ok I stop reading there , is pretty obvious what his going at , seriously if Sony give the chance to indie devs to release games like The life of black tiger in PSN , they should be greatful they have PSN to promote their games. Also if your game isn't selling is maybe because...hmmm ...you know ....your game effing Sucks!!!, lol seriously what game are we even talking about here? 😅
Personally, I am ALL FOR Sony being strict curators of the PS Store and not allowing every jack leg with a dev kit to put their piece of crap game on there for sale. Not all indie developers are created equal and shouldn't all be treated equal. It's a meritocracy and if your game is extremely "mid" then you don't deserve the same treatment as an indie who actually makes something worth playing. The last thing I want is for the PS Store to become the friggin' Google Play Store that's saturated with a bunch of garbage.
If your game doesn't sell well, maybe your game just below standard.
Did you even read it? It's not about that at all. "Email communications with the platform are returned in months rather than days or weeks, the process of obtaining sales reports is unnecessarily time consuming and outdated, and it has no marketing, analytics, or advertising assessment tools for developers." "Platform X" is a poor indie partner, plain and simple.
Heard ember lab before?
Just make better games and they'll sell better. Of course Sony doesn't care about your shovelware.
"Email communications with the platform are returned in months rather than days or weeks, the process of obtaining sales reports is unnecessarily time consuming and outdated, and it has no marketing, analytics, or advertising assessment tools for developers." "Platform X" is a poor indie partner, plain and simple. Not getting data is huge for ANY game.
The whole having to wait in line to be able to have your game on sale is a little weird. Is it to avoid having the sales page be too overcrowded? But saying their games deserve to be spotlighted on PSN is some next level entitlement! Too many games come out all the time for this particular unknown developer to get their unknown game spotlighted instead of the other 10 plus games that come out on the same day.
I would like to hear Shuhei Yoshida address some of the shortcoming. He's such an honest and nice guy, and heads up the indie initiative at PS. Hopefully PS can change some of their archaic ways, as having happy developers is key to having great games on your platform.
Bla, bla, bla 😂😂😂... . Don't put your game where you feel its not wanted. By all means put your game on that platform that has Game Pass. Not more than a very small handful of people will notice your game not on the Platform that dose not have Game Pass and everyone can be content. Also maybe if your indie game is great "I very much doubt it" but if it is maybe Game Pass will pay you to put your next little Indie game on it in stead of you hoping someone will play it so you can get paid.
Lol charging between 25k to 200k for a shout out on the psn and not letting indies drop the prices of their own games. Even the head mod of N4g is in here shilling for sony 🤣.
Advertising isn't free? OMG time to demand my own billboards across town.
Lmao Chris going head asf for Sony dude ain't even read the articles 😂
Sony was strong arming Epic, why is anyone shocked they are doing the same thing to Indie devs
Sony has really become evil. They need to start doing more friendly practices instead of greed
This would actually see Sony not making money, explain to everyone how this is "greed" exactly. How is it you get away with posting comments like this?
Evil? Sensationalist much?
I’ll say this. I think the vast majority of Indies are doing fine, of course with varying results (not everything is worth buying) but fine overall. The thing about complaints is that it’s easy to get a train going and make it look like a lot. If I wrote “omg Outback Steakhouse sucks and is the McDonald’s of steakhouses “ someone would chime in and say “ yes it’s terrible” and or recant a bad experience. Someone else would follow too and so on. To anyone that has never been it would sound like “wow. I’ve never been there but why are they so bad? I won’t waste my money there.” The people that had GOOD experiences at the place will RARELY speak up because they don’t care enough to and/or it’s not worth debating. So now you have the minority seeming like the majority. That’s what I think this is. Negativity spreads a lot faster than positivity because how easy it is to share and feed on. PS5 damn near shoves indies down your throat. That can’t show them ALL cause I’d never get to what I want to see. But you always have a splash or place with them on there. I’m the stores they have indie highlights, devs indie recommendations Like Ted prices favorite indies and stuff like that to name a few. Nintendo has the news section on the switch that shows indie games along with others. Similarly to PlayStation, but more informative usually. It’s like a whole video or wall of text about a game. Xbox has the weakest showing of indies on the store fronts I’ve seen BUT that’s where Gamepass comes in. You can download booty warrior 2 for the cost of your monthly sub, hate it, and delete it. Just like iTunes or Spotify, you already downloaded it and played so they get their pittance. Plus Microsoft can show the indie as a day one gamepass game (no matter how dumb the game is, it’s still a bullet point- not-) and that might help people download on a whim. It’s a win for both. Gamepass gets more bulletpoints and the devs allowance money is adding up little by little. Point is though, no matter WHERE you put your game, if it looks like crap nobody is going to play it. Advertised or not. Your best bet is Gamepass. At least there you can get that “Aw F it I’ll try this” bored on a Saturday customer.
The Ps store is whack when it comes to most things especially promotions. The ps5 doesn’t even have an add-on section anymore. That’s nothing new though, stop counting on Sony to advertise your games because they obviously suck at it or just don’t care. As far as sales go, that’s tough but it’s their platform. I don’t know how that works but neither do the devs apparently. This might be one of the few times crying could work, it’s just a communication and interface problem. It sounds like easy fixes and I doubt Sony is intentionally screwing them with the deals. I doubt they would give 2 shits if these indie games were on every weekly sale.
A couple of months ago I remember the dev of Return of the Obra Dinn (sp?) was crying that they couldn't get it on sale, the a couple of weeks later I saw it on sale on PSN. Make of that what you will. That game does look pretty cool actually, but I'm a fanboy and would rather play Returnal right now.
When it’s just a communication issue the usual “public outrage” can do wonders. If it happens that often you would think it would be fixed by now. Maybe it’s a cultural thing I dunno. I heard Japanese corporations are cutthroat and soul sucking. More than usual corporations I mean.
I can understand where he's coming from but I feel that if he wants to be on the front page of the store it he has to bring something high quality to the world. I'm a consumer I have very limited time to actually play despite it being a hobby it's still something that's limited. There's no reason Sony would want to advertise his game on the front page unless it was a huge seller from a proven studio and.i don't want them displaying Indies either I want AA plus games being shown off I don't want to waste time shifting through thousands or d- rated games like you have to on steam.
Sony is dooms
'TRUST ME when I say that the vast majority of devs are reading that thread, and NODDING THEIR HEADS VIOLENTLY" lol
As someone who plays indies on Platform X... I can say that indie games there are too expansive. Last two sales were good... but 15-20 euros is a bit much.
Well I guess Sony's publishing practices will be like jumping through hoops, but it usually is when releasing a live product. Just sounds to me like an self-entitled indie dev whingeathon.
Indie startup games need to be supported by buying them. But many experimental indies I can't get I to them. I bought one called Tyler 005 and omg it's awful he's even forgotten to put sound effects when you battle any creatures
Only the complaints of a few doesn't echo the sentiment of EVERY indie developer. Not going to take them seriously.
I'm not sure what the solution is and I'd be curious what Xbox and Nintendo are doing that Sony isn't. I'd also like to know specifically which games these devs are from (I did see Hypnospace). Did these devs have some sort of marketing elsewhere that they didn't with Sony? One thing I can say in regards to the PS5 is that their new releases list is DOMINATED by indie games. There's zero preferential treatment to indies or AAA in regards to this list and you're far, far more likely to see some $4.99 title you've never heard of on the front of the list than that new major AAA release. If that isn't getting people to buy these games, then I'm not certain advertising is going to. Additionally, if you're subscribed to the Playstation channel on Youtube, they're putting out new trailers every day, a majority of which are Indie. I don't doubt these developers at all, but I'd really love more detail and comparison.
Sony would do a state of play and showcase almost all indies and get trashed by their fan base. Its a no win, they want to spotlight what the PS5 can do putting a 2d side scrolling indie even of amazing won't show that.
Sony really can't catch a break huh?
Sony is cultivating an environment lately that I think does an good job of weeding out junk and let the true quality games rise. Indies are well known for abusing naming structures and artwork to trick people into buying their games borderline false advertising. I mean do you want all that garbage cluttering up your storefront just as you open it up? If an indie game is good it will eventually do well. This really just rings that indies are not happy that they can't as easily make a quick buck on Panther simulator type garbage.
This just more proof Gamepass help sell games not hurt. PS has majority market share yet have indies that sell the worst on it. That's crazy. PS need something like [email protected] to help indies and try to get indies on PSNow day 1
Sony is getting more and more draconian with their policies.
Sonys one of the most anticipated consumer company ever
PS5 Store basically a building block for the entire P5/4 games catalog, needs some work.
"worse than other well-known plumber or super-soldier related video game systems" Lol, that is a great way of saying "mario" and "halo"