Why PS3 Emulation Is So Hard Even After 15 Years

As we learned earlier in the year, the PS4 won’t be feature any backwards compatibility outside of the PS4. While a disappointment to many, some had wondered why it was that some PCs were capable of running emulations such as RPCS3 yet a next-gen console such as the PS5 isn’t. Well, for those who aren’t very technical, a new video by Modern Vintage Gamer breaks down the very reasons as to why it’s not easy to emulate the PS3, with professional input from a former member of Sony’s own ICE team.

[MadLad]

Obviously it's the CPU.

[VenomUK]

Call me an optimist but I don't necessarily think this is the end of the PS1, PS2, PS3 backwards compatibility dream! The reality is Sony has a 110+ million install base of PS4 owners so it was paramount to carry them over to the new generation so that's why it has invested in getting this working. But what Sony will discover through the player use metrics is just how much PS5 owners use PS4 games. It will see how valuable this is and may then look to conceivably expand compatibility to the older generations. No guarantees but at the start of the new generation when next-gen game releases are limited Sony is going to be shocked and delighted at how popular backwards compatibility and BC with boost mode on PS5 is.

[Rude-ro]

Sony has offered bc on all consoles in one way or another except to the PS4.
Sony are tech engineers.
The base is not concerned with backwards compatibility.
Is it/would it be cool? Sure.
Would it generate a lot of revenue? No.
It is niche. Known through sonys long run in console gaming and offering bc.

Sony pushes boundaries and tries to push things forward.
Cameras, tvs, stereos, batteries, etc etc etc..
They win some and lose some, but they are not about being stagnant and slapping a price on old and calling it “new”.

They gave up the fight per the direction of the ps3s architecture because no American tech company would ever allow the hardware to change that could effect software.
Microsoft, google, etc. all put up that fight.
Especially in the ps3 erA where Microsoft was loosing major ground/trust per insecure os builds and the like,

So now, Sony is focusing on what they do best... game coding.

They may not be allowed to “rewrite” computer hardware... but they sure as hell know how to pierce together the puzzle to make THE best game engines per their consoles.

[darthv72]

PS1 and PS2 'digital' bc is already a possibility. They just need to enable the feature. Many PS2 digital games have even been given trophies but at their core they are still the PS2 version, just running through specific emulation on the PS4 (and soon PS5). Disc based BC may be a bit harder as I believe theere is no CD diode on the optical drive of the PS4 (and subsequent PS5) so no CD media support. That eliminates 100% of the PS1 library and about 30% of the PS2 library.

PS3 discs would be supported if Sony were to add in a Zen compatible version of RPCS3 to their system. Then it would open the door for much more BC titles (both disc and digital). Maybe even get the emulation to utilize some of the SPU of the Tempest processor.

[Shane Kim]

Ps4 had no ps3 bc yet it's the most sold console. So much that MS haven't even showed figures for years. It's the second most sold console of all time. It's a nice feature but not one that sells consoles.

[INMATEofARKHAM]

> Call me an optimist but I don't necessarily think this is the end of the PS1, PS2, PS3 backwards compatibility dream!

I think that's an honest assessment... I doubt we'll ever see offical support, obviously, but fans of emulation will always tinker and there's not much that cannot be solved with more processing power.

(Obviously, I'm talking about PCs here and not a consoles)

[Knightofelemia]

I'd have to say the Cell

[cell989]

Did you say cell?

[Knightofelemia]

Unless you can't read yes I meant the Cell processor and just in case you're thinking of the villain from DBZ no I did mean him even though he is one of my faves.

[cell989]

I heard my name and I just couldn’t help my self lol

[ApocalypseShadow]

To this day, I still wonder what games would have looked like with all 8 SPEs working together. System only allowed 7 as 1 was redundant. And, one 1 was used as well for features. Bringing it down to 6 SPEs.

Just think of Killzone or Motorstorm with all 8 SPEs running. Mouth just waters and flies open. ..Ptuh Ptuh...lol. Got mud in my mouth. *Lunatics unite!!*

[Mithan]

One could also say "what would it have looked like if they had a more traditional cpu, with the same power?".

[ApocalypseShadow]

Traditional CPUs weren't putting out the same power. Remember? They we're hitting Moore's Law.

Only thing wrong with Cell was that Sony didn't teach PC developer's early on on how to program for it.

Funny thing about the Cell design is that today's modern chips have multiple cores. Including mobile chips. Ken K and IBM were actually correct in the direction. Just not in the execution of teaching PC developers new tricks. But they all had to learn multi core programming anyway. PC developers basically said it was too hard. Showing that they lacked advanced programming skills and needed to go back to the easy and familiar.

Now they could program easily for current gen. But things swung in the opposite direction. Gamers complained that current chips weren't powerful enough. "It's mobile chips." But hey, Sony gave ease of development. Everyone should have been happy. Now, Sony decided speed and balance while still being complex. We'll see how smart these developers are in thinking outside the HDD and old game design box.

[sagapo]

@Apocalypse; there’s a big difference between multicore (cell) and multiprocessor ( like today). Multicore is way more difficult to program for than a multiprocessor system. So you can’t really compare that way.
The x360 was a multi processor system; multiplatform games were easier to develop on xbox 360, so they got an edge in performance. The PS3 exclusives however showed what the cell was capable of, which was impressive to say the least, but it was hell to program for.

[LucasRuinedChildhood]

@Mithan @sagapo
I wouldn't bother with ApocalypseShadow. Even though you've corrected him, he will not change his opinion.

"PC developers basically said it was too hard. Showing that they lacked advanced programming skills ..."
EA: "Hey Bioware, here's Frostbite. The engine is not very well documented but you should just know how to use it anyway because you have advanced programming skills."

This is such a dumb point of view. Programming being more difficult requires more time, training and resources. He's trying to take a jab at the intelligence of "PC developers" (casual fanboyism) when he can't even pay attention to a 15 minute video. If multicore and multiprocessor systems were essentially the same, then emulating the PS3 wouldn't be as hard as it is. These developers who "lacked advanced programming skills" are to ones who made PS3 games so maybe they know something.

"Now they could program easily for current gen. But things swung in the opposite direction. Gamers complained that current chips weren't powerful enough."
Not what happened. The PS4 being easy to develop for is because of the x86 architecture. The CPU being underpowered is not the reason that it was easy to develop for (if anything, it's the opposite - it would have created more limitations and required more optimization). It was just a financial decision to keep the cost low.

"Now, Sony decided speed and balance while still being complex. We'll see how smart these developers are in thinking outside the HDD and old game design box." The PS5 is easier to do develop for than the PS4. What is this guy even talking about?

[RedDevils]

I want Motorstorm on PS5 now damn it!

[Cernunnos]

Mostly the same, but possibly more stable frame rates. The PS3 was quite majorly bottlenecked by having very little RAM and the GPU was not the greatest.

[no_more_heroes]

Because the Cell processor was a monster in all the bad ways as well as the good.

[excaliburps]

Kutaragai is the one who pushed for it, no?

[IanTH]

100%. I was going to add in a pithy "because of Kutaragi" in the comments because, yea, it's the Cell that's the problem..but it was a problem because of Ken lol.

PS3, if executed only on his vision, wouldn't have even had any traditional GPU at all! The Nvidia GPU got thrown in practically last minute due to (plentiful) feedback, and I just wonder if the PS3 only had SPUs to work with, how much more would the PS3 have struggled, and how would that have impacted visuals? Quite a complicated mashup, the PS3 ended up being lol.

[Terry_B]

Well, we have 2020 and the first Xbox is still not emulated.

[MadLad]

No real reason for it. The original Xbox was basically a PC.

Most of the games had were also on PC. It had its exclusives, but the people who work on these projects usually aim for platforms where a lot of the titles could only be had through emulation.

[FreeckyCake]

Otogi, Ninja Gaiden Black, Dino Crisis, Blinx, Conquer bad fur day reloaded, Crimson Sea 1, Jet Set Radio Future and the list go on. There's a lot of reasons why OGX emulation must be stable in the near future.

[MadLad]

That's still just a handful. It's a lot different than the hundreds had on the earlier Playstation/Nintendo console. Both of which have multiple, high quality emulators available by comparison.

[RedDevils]

The only game I want from 360 is probably Blue dragon, everything on Xbox has no interest or a waste of time when it also on PC.

[Sophisticated_Chap]

Perhaps Sony can get some advice from those part time developers over at RPCS3 to get some tips on how to emulate PS3 games. This is absolutely ridiculous.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Obviously PS3 emulation has not and never will be a priority for Sony. Thank goodness we have a great emulator that works well on even AMD CPUs.

[Rhythmattic]

Real question.. How many games does the emulator play without any issues... ?
Forget extra fps, res, but a 100 % compatibility.

[Cernunnos]

Quite a few now actually. Currently 1881 PS3 games are playable on RPCS3, which is more than half of the library. They have made huge progress over the past year or so.

[Rhythmattic]

Cernunnos
Thank you for the reply.... I guess it was a year ago when they announcedUC1 finally playable, and my thoughts were why? Like home brew I'm glad there's a community dabbling in this, but it just seemed a passion of coders love... Will check up again.

[Rhythmattic]

Cernunnos
Yeh check it out again.... Def come along way, but still, I look back at Sonys way of doing things , and code for emulation is not their thing... I guess that's what they've always done up too the PS3, Hardware Level compatibility.... As Cerny has taken the reigns, in a way its a reset for Sony to do what it does best, Games... And innovations they feel are more important..... They just don't have the resources MS does when it comes to dealing with code to emulate older , and without doubt, Very different architectures like the PS3...... Sure, RPCS3 has many talented coders, but the resources involved, to be "Playable (59.66%): Games that can be completed with playable performance and no game breaking glitches" doesent mean no glitches..... They tried when they drop PS2 support via hardware on the PS3 and used emulation code.... It just was a mess..... Not making excuses.... But I guess, Id rather them doing what they do best, a console platform with exclusive games I like, its the only reason I buy a PS..... When or If they follow the GAAS Sub model, Ill need not buy a PS..... But the future of sub based gaming won't be for Gamers saving money... Its for Making more money..... Its the App Store, Netflix, Steam model rolled into one.....
So, my point, my opinion.... Ive still got my PS3... It does what int does super well... No percentages of ps3 games rated by playability.... Though I know thats not your point.,.... I must reiterate with the resources that would be involved for PS5 emulating PS3.... Sony just wouldn't be able to do it... Sure , its also a business choice to not allow a Home-brew emulator to be freely available on their system...
Take Windows and Qdos as a comparison , The PS5 not having PS3 BC is but Childs play.

[Pancit_Canton]

I think Sony did that on purpose to combat piracy. It was a success, yet at the same time, it was a failure if you care about backward compatibility.

[SegaGamer]

Emulation isn't the only way to play piracted PS3 games. Custom firmware on the PS3 is much easier to do than emulation and that has been around for years.

[RedDevils]

I bought a used PS3 just for that lmao play all PS1, PS2 and PS3 games. Best jailbreak console.

[NeoGamer232]

No, that was not on purpose. That is a conspiracy theory.

The first three years of PS3 did not go well at all for developers. The PS3 was very difficult to develop for and game after game was better framerate and better resolution on X360. Plus, many games were delayed for release because of the PS3 development difficulties. These issues were reported upon numerous times early in the PS3 era.

If Sony did do this on purpose it cost them winning the generation and killing 360 early so it would be considered a mistake. But why would they purposely make something very difficulty to develop for? Raising developer costs and delaying games? I doubt it was on purpose. They were trying to innovate and do something different and new. Valiant effort, but it didn't work out like so many other tech innovation ideas that every company tries.

[Minute Man 721]

Sony didn't do this on purpose, like the Emotion Engine they overhyped the Cell.

Only die hard Sony fanboys defend the Cell, if it was that Great the end results would be more than PS3 and Toshiba TVs

[LucasRuinedChildhood]

Reminds me of the people who say Covid-19 is a hoax.

[Rhythmattic]

MM
Only die hard Sony fanboys Defend the Cell? Only Die hard MS Xbox fanboys deny what was an attempt at a different approach.... Whats to defend when the crappy cell, 1 year later released after the 360, 16 months later in its strongest territories, And caught up and sold more ww... Thats not defending, and remember, Cell blades have also been used in servers... The only thing to defend here is not all of us are on the offensive....
Great is not a 50% failure ,great is not denying the issue, not great is the few billion the shareholders wore, also great those that bought multiple 360's... Great is the 10 x power of the One, Using the cloud.....Great is the now ripple of One support for a gen, And great is now the "Outdated Console War"
The conversation isn't about what's great. Lets talk about whats bad.
Though, im sure youll defend that.

[meganick]

Don’t PS3 games run by emulation when you play them on PSNow? I know they’re streamed, but don’t they run on emulators at the source, or are they running on native hardware?

[Nitrowolf2]

to my understanding its the hardware at source, since you can access xmb elements iirc

[RaiderNation]

No I'm pretty sure Sony has actual PS3 blades at their server farms.

[badz149]

@meganick

Nope. PSNow uses a farm of actual PS3 hardware to run all the PS3 games natively. Not emulation

[FreeckyCake]

The same could be said about certain heavy CPU games on PCSX2.

[FanboySpotter]

Cell. It was too ahead of its time no one is trying to deal with that mess anymore unfortunately. Would be cool if a ps5 model in the future had basically a secondary board with all ps3 chips like the og fat ps3 that played all bc games so that ps5 can play all natively. Idk if that's possible but would be cool

[I_am_Batman]

That wouldn't even be necessary. RPCS3 proves that you can fit all the PPU+SPU threads on a 4 core Zen 2 CCX. If the PS5 SoC has a unified cache pool similar to Zen 3 it would actually make the thread scheduling and cross-communication even more efficient.

The unified GDDR6 memory pool could benefit the CPU to GPU communication by preventing stalls due to a potential memory bandwidth bottleneck. Having both the the GPU and CPU on the same die should also help synchronisation requests by the CPU.

If Sony had implemented PS3 bc they could've even raised the CPU clock by a couple hundred MHz and lowered the GPU clock to stay within the intended power consumption and thermals of the SoC, since PS3 emulation would benefit more more form the higher CPU clock.

[SullysCigar]

Because the Cell processor was an untamable beast that was far removed from the regular tech used before or since.

[Imortus_san]

Because Sony screw that Generation really hard with the worst hardware ever, the game sufered like hell, that was the generation they should have released a PRO version.

[SierraGuy]

I'd choose PS3 over PS4 to this day.

[Imortus_san]

I had hopes the PS5 would read and enhance the PS3 titles, it's a real bummer to me, guess I will have to keep storing the PS3.

[Einhander1971]

Still have my PS3, playing Dantes inferno the other day. Runs like a dream, the way it was intended.

[badz149]

I am also keeping my PS3 tunning from time to time for the huge backlog I still have for it

[DVAcme]

The Cell is a monster of a CPU (it's actually more powerful than the PS4 CPU), but it's such a complicated architecture that emulating it takes an enormous amount of CPU power from any system, even if on paper a more powerful CPU can handle it. Basically, instead of being general-purpose, the Cell prioritizes performance but demands a certain way of programming for it. When programming specidically for it, the Cell outperforms everybother processor on the narket, but regular programming methods are too inefficient for it, which is why multi-platform games would run better on the XBox 360, but PS3 1st-party games would out-perform the 360. It has even been considered a challenging architecture to program for outside of gaming applications, but it has been used as the base for supercomputers even at the military level. There's a famous Air Force supercomputer composed of linked-up PS3s, and a Cell-based supercomputer was the first to avhieve petaflop-level. This is why the PS4 did not have integrated backward compatibility, it was literally impossible for the PS4 to handle. Even now, the PS3 games available on the PS4 are either ports made to run on PS4 natively or they are streamed through Playstation Now, in which the PS4 is not handling the processing at all.

Would I love it if the PS5 was able to handle backcomp with the PS3? Absolutely. But I'm neither holding my breath nor considering a top priority. It handling PS4 backcomp I think is more important for the sake of continuity and to have a more established games base. At this point, emulating the PS3 is a niche, at most.

[Cernunnos]

The Cell's theoretical performance is indeed higher than that of the PS4/Xbox One, however it would not outperform everything on the current market. A modern Intel or AMD CPU will run circles around it. But for its time it was definitely a fantastic piece of hardware.

[plmkoh]

My PS3 60gb Phat still lives strong today.

It's the only way to play unique games like Killzone 3 + 3D + Move controllers.

[Mustakrakish]

Because the CPU design was really dumb?

[blacktiger]

PS3 emulation is not hard, it;'s the cost and the licensing. PS3 emulation is everywhere on PC