Series S redefines "next-gen" - and throws down a gauntlet to Sony

Microsoft shows its commitment to disrupting the market as the $299 Series S questions the concept of console generations.

[RazzerRedux]

"Depending on how Sony responds, Microsoft could end up with both the most expensive and cheapest next-gen consoles available"

Which is exactly where Microsoft has been since the release of the One X: most and cheapest consoles. So Microsoft continuing to do what they have done for years is "throwing down the gauntlet"?

Seriously? No. Throw down the gauntlet with some kick ass AAA games.

[RpgSama]

Microsoft is throwing a lot of money around, we all knew for months what the Series S was, nobody was saying nothing about it, now that we're close to release they're trying to build a narrative that this is a turning point for MS and a stroke of genius.

We've know for months if not close to a year that the series S was a real thing, that it was 4tf machine and that it was going to be a lot cheaper than the Series X (and Ps5).

[Mr Pumblechook]

"Redefines next-gen..." by not being next-gen enough.

Digital Foundry has said the smaller memory could impact graphics. https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[darthv72]

^key word there is 'could'

[arkard]

@darth yeah I've heard 20 cu and 52 cu's are the same thing. Not sure why people buy graphics cards with more. /s

[darthv72]

@ark, not sure why people buy graphic cards with less either... but they do.

[bouzebbal]

So many words... In the end it comes to the software.. PS5 broke the Internet thanks to groundbreaking games. It's what sells consoles.. See PS3

[ABizzel1]

As I read more and more about the Series S I'm starting to think this console is going to be a "successful mistake".

The Series S is going to be the better selling Xbox IMO, the price is too good to pass up and this is an ideal target for casual gamers, kids, and people eventually looking for something new to buy 2 - 3 years down the line.

But from a design standpoint the more I hear about the specs. the more problematic this is going to be for developers and gamers 2 - 3 years down the line.

The GPU while weaker than I would have liked (enable 2 CUs and clock it to 1.6 Ghz MS), is actually the one non-issue with the console.

The CPU would have been an non-issue if it wasn't clocked nearly 300 MHz lower, that means game logic has to be re-ran and tested across the board for 3 systems now (SX, PS5, and SS) which takes away from development time, when keeping it the same clock speed as the SX would have allowed it for lack of a better phrase be dragged and dropped.

The RAM is another huge problem I thought it was 12GB like the One X, but it's only 10GB and it's significantly slower than I ever expected. I suspected the RAM to be equal to the slower 6GB of RAM the Seris X has at 336 GB/s, it's actually half the speed of the PS5's RAM, with the SS being just 224 GB/s with and even worse it's split with 8GB being that speed and another 2GB being just 56 GB/s. WTF.

These things fundamentally hamper game developers, and as games become bigger and require more performance this console isn't going to be able to keep up in 2 - 3 years, without practically retooling game assets for a lower-spec'ed machine which means more development time making Series X and Series S versions.

This box should have been $349, add 2GB of VRAM bringing it to 12GB, increase the speed of the bandwidth to 336 GB/s, provide a better cooling solution to get the CPU back up to 1.825 GHz, and enable the 2CU cores and clock the GPU at 1.825 GHz to get the console to 5.14 TFLOPS. This would make CPU task equal, the GPU would slightly exceed the One X, and the RAM would be fast enough and offer 10GB towards games, making the 1440p @ up to 120fps more feasible across the board before settling into 1080p @ 60fps down the road.

[umair_s51]

Of course 4 is not same as 10 which is not same as 12. Duh.

[IGiveHugs2NakedWomen]

Agreed. The console itself is a good idea price wise, but it's going to hold back 1st party games for the entire generation.

[sagapo]

Like a standard PS4 holds back a PS4 pro? Same thing if you ask me...

[crazyCoconuts]

@sagapo, now that you mention it, the PS4 DID hold back the PS4 Pro. Some games came out that didn't even have PS4 Pro enhancements in both regular and VR games, and I don't think many games really worked to maximize the optimizations that they did put in there.
Tuning and optimizing takes development time, and the majority of the time will be spent where the majority of the customers are. AND the more platforms you have to support the less time you'll end up per platform (duh). I guarantee if EVERY PS4 customer had a PS4 Pro, we would have seen considerably more impressive results.

[Army_of_Darkness]

@sagapo

No.there's a difference. Microsoft is releasing the weakest and strongest console At THE SAME TIME, while Sony will be releasing 2 different models with the same capabilities. then maybe later on release a ps5 pro or something.
So in a way, Ms gimped themselves from the get go intentionally.

[sagapo]

@ Army_Of_Darkness: I was talking about PS4 and the PS4 pro, not the PS5. With the PS4 and the pro you have 2 console versions in the same generation, the release window is irrelevant. Developers can still bring out 2 versions of the game pretty easily on console compared to the hassle a PC brings on that area, but that always has been the case for PC developers. So developing 2 versions on the same architecture shoulnd’t be a problem.

[Rhythmattic]

sagapo
Hang on.. And the One you don't mention?
Last gen, This gen... This is not a new gen for MS. Its all one. Thats their move.

[morganfell]

"Like a standard PS4 holds back a PS4 pro? Same thing if you ask me..."

That is a poor analogy. The PS4 did not launch alongside the PS4 Pro. Had that been the case then I would agree with you. The launch window does matter.

"Developers can still bring out 2 versions of the game pretty easily on console ..."

But do they? Mostly no. So again, launch window matters. Your supposition doesn't fit reality. It shouldn't be a problem but it is since developers simply do not often push the envelop on the stronger unit. And this isn't just about resolution and some tweaks. The impact can affect overall game design and level structure.

[darthv72]

MS 1st party studios are going to be working the other way around, not the way most think. Most think they have to work for the lower base and then go up. They will be working from the top and then going down. This is the opposite of how most console devs work and is more in line with how PC devs work. They code for the best and then make adjustments to see how much needs to be tweaked to get it running on something lower. That is why there is a minimum required, a recommended and a maximum on most PC boxes (or used to be when Pc games came in retail boxes).

when it comes to 3rd parties, chances are they will use the PS5 as their baseline and know they can make improvements for the SX and reductions for the SS. It really is that simple to understand. So now you have your minimum (SS), recommended (PS5) and maximum (SX)

[Neonridr]

even with a less powerful GPU it's still using RDNA 2, and it's using the same CPU (slightly clocked less). It's going to be able to play these next gen games easily at 1440p/60fps which is who it's targeting. If you want to game at 4K, the Series S isn't for you.

[sagapo]

@ Morganfell: so what you’re saying is buying a PS4 pro when having a PS4 was a waste of my money at the time, since, as you put it, developers don’t push the envelop on the better hardware anyway?

[Bathyj]

1st and 3rd party.
They just hobbled the whole generation so they can have a price advantage because let's face it, that all they have that matters.

[Unspoken]

Like low end GPUs hold back high end GPUs when they release on PC right?

No.

[RgR]

@sagapo

The pro and standard ps4 where not released at the same time. The pro came out quite a while after and yes you're right...it is held back by the standard ps4.

But what kind of morons actually plan being held back right at the start of a next gen? Not the same thing.

[TheProblem]

If by redefine they mean gimp then sure

[Unspoken]

Yep, that's exactly what it means 💯.

One console for the high-end, one for the low end. OMG, its a new paradigm in technology, like no way possible dude for this to be ok with anyone.

[Unspoken]

The infrastructure is in place this time around. All they need are a few new killer IPs.

[F0XH0UND922]

Didn't Phil say he was going to do that, like idk, 6 years ago? Don't hold your breath, man.

[RazzerRedux]

Agree. The "new killer IPs" is exactly what they have been missing.

[1Victor]

Microsoft throw down a gauntlet at Sony and while its in the air Sony is thinking fast will they throw the shield back at Microsoft or go for the neck with a sword slash.

Stay tune for the next chapter of thoughtless internet articles

[Christopher]

This article is written based on a really stupid premise. That premise being that having two levels of consoles while advertising only one for marketing purposes is good for the consumer rather than having a single power level and ensuring every consumer actually gets what is advertised.

[morganfell]

It redefines next gen, albeit in an albatross not as glamorous as you imagined way.

[RaidenBlack]

Xbox(s), xbox(s) .... white xbox(s) everywhere ...
Now every gaming site looks like somebody suddenly ripped open a cotton pillow.

[Whitey2k]

These people need to get there head out of there asses. Series S is stupidly less powerful y u have the ps5 digital is the same power as the disk version. If the ps5 digital turns out 100 dollars more then i would consider that as ur not losing power

[crazyCoconuts]

Agreed - all eyes are on that price now. A $100 difference will make the XSS DOA no matter what these clueless articles say. If it's a $150-$200 difference - ok, maybe it has a chance, but still not a great one.

[ThinkThink]

I think you underestimate $100 in today's economy. I also think people are not factoring in that only 31% of people own a 4k tv.

[crazyCoconuts]

We'll see. And 4K is only one of many reasons to fork over the extra $100, if that actually ends up being the amount...

[Ju]

I agree. At >=$100 this will go the the XS, at $50-75, now that's a different story.

For $100 you would actually think people would read specs. But they probably won't care much about 5.5GB/s vs. 2.5, 875GB vs 500 or 10TF vs 4. Probably worth it but for the majority going for that product just numbers and words.

[darthv72]

Are we really so sure the 5DE is using the exact same SSD capacity as the disc version? I mean it was only shown briefly and everything that was talked about was geared towards the PS5 that we knew was coming. Remember the 'road to ps5' was before their actual console reveal that showed the DE. Just like the XSX tech info was all geared towards the "X" and the S was revealed later.

For all we know, the optical drive is not the only change the DE has. It too could get a halved SSD to save additional costs. That wouldnt require such a radical design change like the XSS has gone through. So a 5DE with 412gb SSD and a price of $299 sounds very appealing. It would be very reminiscent of their 20gb PS3 and 60gb PS3 and their $100 difference between the two.

[crazyCoconuts]

Yes they're the same specs minus the drive

[Teflon02]

Sony literally said they're the same. Stop this grasping at nothing lol

[Ju]

I don't think 412GB vs 825GB (or something) will make a huge difference in price. Those are fixed chips based on IO channels. You could just replace them with half capacity but not less chips which would have a bigger cost impact. It needs those 12 channels and 825 is the absolute minimum else you'd need to reduce the bandwidth, too. But an interesting idea. With that said, I don't think this will get you those $100 you are thinking of

[Father__Merrin]

Disgraceful reporting by mostly NA Web outlets. They are pathetically showing bias as was start of last gen where soon after launch they all went behind the bike shed to hide. Absolute disgrace imo

[Futureshark]

Unfortunately, MS are hobbling themselves again by all their games having to work properly on the lowest common denominator. Was the Xbox One S, will now be the Xbox Series S.

Series X games will probably have higher resolution and maybe a few more effects, but the game design, physics, geometry etc. will all have to be designed around the lower spec machine, to keep inline with the MS sales line.

A shame as we will never really see the true potential of the Series X, whereas PS5 games will evolve as devs gain better understanding of the hardware and new game engine updates.
We've seen this with the One S, One X and the PS4, and I can't really believe that MS has done exactly the same decision again and everyone is cheering.

Don't get me wrong, the Series S is a nice looking machine, and probably excellent to get if you are just after what's on Gamepass (and EA Play) at the moment, but in a year or two it will be stale.
I'd like to see MS have the balls to release Series X exclusive games, only developed for that console, but they never will as that would now split their customer base and break promises.
So again we will get like the One X, a heavyweight machine that ends up punching below it's weight. Oh well.

[darthv72]

Both the Pro and 1X were capable of more than what was delivered but both Sony and MS didnt want to split the base. So instead, each upgrade just upgraded what was there as far as res and fps. MS has chosen the SX as the lead platform for its games and will work down... not the other way around like people think. As for 3rd parties, that is on them to decide. They could use the PS5 as lead and know they can improve for SX and reduce for SS accordingly.

But just know that MS game studios will not be working with at the lowest and going up.

[morganfell]

"MS has chosen the SX as the lead platform for its games and will work down... not the other way around like people think."

Utterly absurd.

You do not build a title for a more powerful unit then realize because of game design. level layout etc, cutting resolution and frame rate will still not make the title playable on the weaker system. Now for the sake of parity you have to go back to the more powerful system and make changes in the game design. Extremely inefficient. You either build to the lower spec unit or you build in parallel. The issue with the latter is it is a slower process because of the constant back and forth.

And you are making a mistake thinking developers would improve for the X over the PS5 ignoring inherent bottlenecks in the unit. components do not operate in a vacuum. In addition, how about holding back PS5 loading times in MP titles because of crossplay so that PS5 gamers do not enter a level ahead of X gamers. How about slowing down the respawns of PS5 players after a death because faster loading and respawning would be seen as an advantage for PS5 players. How about far less complex environments and level sizes because the X cannot match the fill rate of the PS5 made possible by the SSD. Or retard the speed of PS5 players through an environment because the X cannot match environmental traversal loading speeds. Another individual staring too hard a numbers on a piece of paper as well as thinking next gen = resolution or framerate. Vertical and narrow conception at best when the overall equation is so much more complex.

[morganfell]

One other note. Developers familiar with systems can build to an allowance knowing that will not overtax the lower system. They can build on the higher end and then move to the lesser capable system. But the issue remains and that issue is you do not get to push your higher end system to the wall then find a way to make it work on the weaker hardware. The game is affected at the design stage. That's not a great way to reach for next gen.

[Ju]

I think this is exactly what's going to happen @darth. PS5 becoming the lead, than port this to X and scale it down to XS. With quite some impact that the games will be fully optimized for PS5, the X advantage becomes negligible and the PS5 games will release earlier while developers will pull their brains how to get this damn thing working on the XS. Well done MS.

[rainslacker]

Working backwards only applies to graphical settings. For game design, you have to work from the low end. You can't force a lower end machine to be able to perform all the functions that high end game design may include...such as objects on screen, advanced AI, special functions only available at higher powers that directly influence the visual design....for instance if you use some sort of advanced lighting to change how you see a level, but the lower end system doesn't support it...and the list goes on.

Once again, people are misappropriating advancement in games to being nothing more than graphical advances, and the sooner people get that fallacy out of their head, the sooner they can start to see that what MS has here is not in their best interests if they want games to advance. This is MS trying to cater to the casuals, at the expense of advancing games. The last time MS did that, it was with Kinect, and we all remember how that went.

If you want to praise this nonsense now, then don't lament at how games are being held back years from now.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

They build from the top down not the bottom up.

[Futureshark]

I'm sorry but they really don't.
If you believe you will see the full potential of the Series X realised as long as development has to include the Series S then I'm afraid you are delusional.

[S2Killinit]

Its pretty much a last gen console.

[Wikkid666]

One S vs Series S

Series S:
Smaller
More ram
Ram 3.3 time faster
CPU 4 times faster
About 4 times tflps
SSD about 50 times faster than the hdd
Raytracing
Full RDNA 2 features

Yep... definitely last gen.

[Atticus_finch]

That's a whole lot of words to say underpowered.

[Ju]

Correction:

Less ram than the 1X (12 vs 10, and 2GB of that as extremely slow ram, basically dropping this down to 8 or half of XsX and PS5)
4TF RDNA2 about the same performance as X with 6TF GCN.

What makes you think, this will look any better what the X currently delivers? Other than say 60fps more often.

[Wikkid666]

Ju can't read

[Silly gameAr]

No, it just seems like these blogs are writing dumb s**t to get a response out of Sony, and get some traffic to their little sites. You guys NEVER learn.

[Magatsuhi]

Seems like a desperate move to me

[thornh]

Ok. Let me get this out of my system.

I've been around for a long time, longer than Microsoft has been a company. Let's clear up one thing when comparing Microsoft to Sony when it comes to console design.

Microsoft has always been a software acquisition company (they acquired things like DOS and Word, they didn't write that stuff themselves). So, from the beginning Microsoft has leaned on 3rd party support and partnership to build their empire. They're good at that. They write code and make good partnership deals. They don't engineer hardware. For their consoles they cram as much high powered PC equipment as they can into a box, call it a console, make deals with 3rd parties (EA for example) and call it a day. Where they have shined is Xbox live because code and networking is their specialty.

Then there is Sony. Sony is an electronics engineering company. They design and manufacture premium electronic equipment, cameras, tvs, audio equipment, etc. and have been doing so for decades. Nintendo went to Sony for their engineering expertise to design a disc based video game console and then decided on a different direction. Sony decided to pursue entering the console market on their own and the PlayStation brand was born. Sony has gone to the drawing board and engineered and designed each of their consoles in house from the ground up. The same is true for the PS5. Sure they partner with chip makers on CPUs and GPUs but there is so much more that goes into their console. I honestly don't give a damn about which console has more teraflops or clock speed. There are so many more things going on inside the PS5 that are innovative and moving the industry forward. The controller alone is unlike anything else out there and is more likely to define this generation than anything else.

These are two very different companies both with their strengths and weaknesses. But please do not insult our intelligence by claiming the Series S redefines anything, particularly the next console generation. It simply does not.

[Father Murder X]

You are correct to a certain degree but that narrative changed with the Xbox One X. I think that was when they started moving towards excelling in hardware design more so then they had previously. They do engineer their own hardware internally. They started designing the Series X/S 4 years ago. The Series S is designed for the mass market. I will definitely getting one for the kids.

[thornh]

Understood. And I'm sure they will get better at hardware design. Sony just has an outstanding pedigree and I feel they are much more capable on the hardware front. If we lived in a perfect world Sony would engineer the box and Microsoft the connectivity.

[Ju]

But also showed how little they understand that market. While I agree that the X was a great engineering success, it was a total failure on the market. Little to late, the PS4Pro totally cut them off. MS basically rebuilt the console which huge money while Sony simple made the pro an evolutionary step. Resulting in the shortest lifetime of a console yet for the X. MS just doesn't get how that market works.

Now they yet again introduce a X replacement (because that what the XS is) and call it "defining next gen". It isn't. Taking the X of the market is a clear indicator why. Its a cheaper, pimped (but also reduced) version of the X which is compatible with nothing. This will totally fracture the market (yet again, they don't understand how a console market works). And again, in typical MS fashion, they believe they can offset that with marketing $$$ and label things with what they are not.

[ShadowWolf712]

Nintendo didn't just go to Sony for a disc-based system, the sound chip in the Super Famicom/SNES is a Sony-designed chip. Their sound equipment is some of the best out there. The company's R&D and Engineering departments are pretty much made up of audiophiles who invented their own proprietary audio codecs that are crazy good.

Which is part of why I still chuckle when I remember someone on this very site was legit trying to argue that Sony has NO experience in audio engineering when compared to, say, Dolby, and thus the PS5's audio would be inferior.

[thornh]

Yes, that's why the Tempest Engine is exciting. Again, something new and innovative in the PS5 design that is glossed over in the general gaming media.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

The engineered the entire Surface line, Hololens including the new Surface Duo. You don't seem to know much about Microsoft.

[ShadowWolf712]

Didn't they actually buy another company that was working on AR tech to make Hololens for them?

[Rhythmattic]

As they did with the Israel company that innovated Kinect.... Inspired and Aquired...
Sure, Many companies do this...But Sony more so does its own in House R&D....
They have definitely Paved the way in many markets....
Walkman. Trinitron. Lenses, CCD's , even where doing motion controls before many others.... Perfect? No.... Like DAT, DASH, Digital Desks, PCM, (minidisc errghh.. good for broadcasting though) in the Pro Audio field, they never go unrespected....

[FlavorLav01]

You have to have games 1st before any true “gauntlet” is thrown down. Otherwise, SeriesS or X might as well be just another entry point PC.

[OB1Biker]

7.5 GB (slow) RAM 'next gen"

[parkesy78]

If by redefine you mean they've fucked up and will hold back future xbox series x and ps5 multiplatform games for the entire generation with xbox series s being the lowest denominator then yeah they've redefined next gen well done

[parkesy78]

I think there making a mistake by touting it as targeting 1440p machine there gonna cannibalise there own xbox series x sales by confused parents who think there's not much difference between 1440p and 4k ,I think when it launches people will be surprised how many games are 1080p and have lower resolutions than xbox one x cant wait for digital foundry in November

[RgR]

Nit sure giving the weakest option for hardware again is throwing down the gauntlet.

All PlayStation needs to do is offer the digital version at 350$ and keep the other version at 500$

[talocaca]

I love how people are hyping it without seeing a single game running on final hardware.

The same goes for the 12 TF and the 4 TF versions.

[Darkborn]

I bet it doesn't help them out in the short term or the long term. Short term they have no big exclusives to market except a couple mostly timed exclusives from third parties. Long term, after the two year limit of making games also on the super out dated Xbox one, they will also be forced to make games on the 4 TF Xbox series S. Their games will not look that amazing since they will be forced to make it for the least common denominator for the rest of the gen. Meanwhile, sonys games will look amazing from day one. I'm going to make a bet that 0 first party games this next gen on the series X will look better than ghost of tsushima or the last of us part 2 on the ps4 pro.

[Whitey2k]

Well developers have stated not only its crap in power but the main concern is the size of the ram and the speed. Whats gonna hurt the most as most developers stated including the crytek game engineer is the split ram! All assets or what not has to been crammed in the fastest ram available its going to hurt series x down the road but foremost is really going to hurt the series s

[Shikoku]

What? Lol

[catlover316]

I don’t think it’s enough, especially if the ps5 price is close. Remember most gamers went ps4, and these consoles play last gen games, it’s going to take a lot to make people switch.

[Qin1982]

Refine my ass.This article makes me laugh. If Microsoft wants to redefine next-gen, throw some quality trip-A games to do it, not a stupid gauntlet.

[Chriswheeler22]

Imo, the sales for the S and SX will mimic the sales of the original Xbox one and X1X. The S will be the dominating system in thinking between the two.

[Italiano1234567]

Yeah ok. The s cant even play xbox1x bc games. Its gonna be playing the xbox1s versions. Also alot of developers r coming out saying this is gonna hold back game development

[anast]

Not sure gauntlet is the right word, "Roku Box" might be a bit closer.

[garos82]

gtfoh with this nonsense.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Get the S with Gamepass and 200+ games, a controller, and Xbox Live for $24/month over 2 years for your kid on launch day or a PS5 for $499 a controller and no games included.

This is an easy decision for a parent.

[Italiano1234567]

It comes with a game that astro bot platformer and kids r gonna want spiderman haha

[Atticus_finch]

Get PS5 digital ($400) and PSnow ($10 a month) and get 750 games, the best looking games, actual next gen machine and the guaranteed best exclusives. Also batteries included 😂👍

[toyzombie]

If Sonys digital console has a difference of $100 the S console is in trouble. For $100 more you get a more powerful machine.

[Atticus_finch]

More than 2 times the TF for 100 more. PS5 will be a must have.

[RosweeSon]

Throws down more of a speed bump than a gauntlet 😑🥴😂

[Rhythmattic]

Redefine ? Like , make a console a box with no exclusives....
Long Live 3rd party Multiplatform games!

[IRetrouk]

🤔 in what way...

[ironmonkey]

Meh more like throwing a few dead twigs. But its an effort at least.

[RosweeSon]

Roadkill 😂 🦡 😅

[esemce]

No it doesn't, we all know series S is not really "next gen".

[Jericho1337]

Wow, never seen so much saltiness.

As has been mentioned before, we (people on this website) are not the target demographic for the Series S. It's really there for mass market appeal and to say you can get a brand new Xbox "from £249". It's smart business whether you like it or not.

[PrinterMan]

That’s a pretty laughable headline.

[RgR]

I hope that devs opt not to release games on xbox s and if they can't due to crap then not to release on xbox period.

It's really strange to claim next gen while delivering current gen hardware.

What they are doing is deciding that their next gen consoles will be weak but be more affordable with gamepass and at the same time block multiplat devs from actually creating unique experiences for next gen due to their imposed limitations.

The way I see it is the following.
MS main console is the Xbox series S, just like the current xbox s is equivalent to the launch xbox one. Their xbox series x is their mid gen refresh. But they're offering both at launch. Therefore they are intentionally bottlenecking the next gen games.