(Xbox Studios Developer) "Rare are delighted to return as Headline Sponsor for the MCV/DEVELOP Women in Games Awards this year"
That’s nice and all but diversity does not = talent Best people for the job should always come first
More diversity in the top ranks of Ubisoft would have resulted in a much better portfolio of games over the last decade. It depends. I used to have a fairly hardline view on this topic but I changed my mind when I looked at the data. Corporations don't have bleeding hearts and they don't do things that they know will hinder their bottom line. Most studies show that diversity leads to higher productivity, more innovation (look again at Ubisoft) and higher profits for companies. ***That might sound like a talking point but companies have the data and they know it's true***. That's why they're so desperate to have a more diverse workforce. The PR is really just a nice bonus. I've studied computer games development (programming, not game design) in college and it was a complete sausage fest. I'd already done part-time jobs where I worked and made friends with different kinds of people, had my first girlfriend, etc. so I found this really unappealing, tbh. From my own experience, diversity is a good thing and will improve the games industry.
"More diversity in the top ranks of Ubisoft would have resulted in a much better portfolio of games over the last decade" Or you know, just not filled with abusers and sexual predators Anyway they used to go on and still say how "woke" they are yet all the shit that happened in the company shows how hypocritical they actually are. Point is if you go into something and say "We're going to focus on diversity, we need a black person, an Asian person, a Middle Eastern person, someone who's Gay, Trans, Non Binary and also we need someone who's classed as handicaped then you'll go out looking for JUST that, it comes off then you are exploiting these things for show and to keep people happy. When really, you might have just missed 1 or 2 applicants who could have made the next "Assassins Creed" level franchise or had an idea that could have refreshed Prince of Persia to critical acclaim, extreme examples but you get the point.
Diversity is a kind of accepted racism and sexism where you are loved only for the color of your skin. In a perfect society, everyone would be human and skin color or gender or religion is not even considered since it's not a critetia for hate ( racism ) or love ( diversity ).
"Most studies show that diversity leads to...." ...whatever that study was designed to show. Social and political "studies" are created in order to push an agenda. "From my own experience, diversity is a good thing and will improve the games industry." Certainly, because of the shortage in skilled workers overall. https://www.youtube.com/wat...
More diversity of thought would be great, more new ideas generated.
what absolute nonsense. you wanna make a change Lucas, why dont you get a job in primary schools. I hear there is a severe lack of penises teaching our kids. Instead of being the sausage fest "problem", be the change you wanna see
To some, equality (or the equaling closer) feels like racism/oppression. Those folks are going to have a rough time as time progresses.
@garos82 "what absolute nonsense." Out of interest, could you highlight something in my comment that's actually wrong? If my comment is just nonsense, then that should be fairly easy. "I hear there is a severe lack of penises teaching our kids." And thank God for that. haha Taking your comment seriously for a moment, a diversity initiative doesn't mean that people can't pursue what they're passionate about. I would approve of similar initiatives for schools to increase the amount of male teachers so I'm consistent in my views. Also, there is now a significantly higher percentage of women in most of the tech industry than there was just 5-6 years ago while not much progress has been made on race if you look at the stats. Common sense will tell you that men of different races are not genetically predisposed to being more or less interested in computer science than one another.
Diversity in viewpoints doesn't mean racial diversity. Ubisofts portfolio hasn't changed due to greed not anything else.
Saying a diverse team is incredibly important to them also doesn't mean that talent is less important. I don't know why people always have to say things like this. Highlighting one important element doesn't mean they don't hire talented people or other important factors in hiring.
Talent and personality should always come first in the hiring process. In person interviews should be a relic of the past. Names should be replaced by serial numbers when applying.
Some people feel that an initiative to get a bit of diversity into a company is fundamentally unfair and that it represents an attack on them. That's it, really. I used to feel the same, tbh. I don't think a lot of people here have thought much about the topic besides how it relates to their own self-interests.
Because diversity does not equal talent. If diversity is really important it directly goes against talent because it would conflict in many cases. Saying diversity is super important to them conflicts with the goal of getting talent into the studio. If this was not the case you would get more deadlines about how they are looking for the best talent no matter the skin color. Now that is inclusive and that has the right priority. If you have a more talented asian then hire the Asian. If it's a more talented white person then hire them. Same for black, Latino, etc.
"Saying a diverse team is incredibly important to them also doesn't mean that talent is less important." Because as soon as a company starts being racist/sexist and wants to know what someone's skin colour and reproductive organs are they have to sacrifice talent. It's as simple as that.
***Because diversity does not equal talent. If diversity is really important it directly goes against talent because it would conflict in many cases.*** ***Because as soon as a company starts being racist/sexist and wants to know what someone's skin colour and reproductive organs are they have to sacrifice talent. It's as simple as that.*** These are likely the most racist thing I've read in a while. You should really read what you just typed. You just said that talent is associated with these things and that looking for "diversity" has to mean giving up talent, which means those of different backgrounds can't be talented because if they look there it is being sacrificed? I seriously hope that's not what you meant. And saying you look for diversity, again, does not mean you don't require talent as well. We don't live in a world where talent is only in a few hands, it's in the hands of millions. That's a pretty big pool to utilize for job searches, especially as those people with said talent tend to congregate in specific regions of the world because that's where the jobs are located.
I'm not fond of the idea of companies actively trying to hire people based on things that are not legal to not hire them for. Basically, if you can't say no to someone because of discriminatory factors, those things shouldn't be considered a positive either. I'm a firm believer that equality means equal, and that any candidate should be looked at on their own merits. In jobs such as these, two equal candidates should not have one chosen to meet an agenda or quota. However, I am also a very firm believer in increasing the number of people that fall into those under-represented groups to want to go into such fields that typically do not have a lot of people in said groups applying for them, learning the skills or going to school to get those jobs, or just increasing knowledge on these jobs to these groups so that they may becoming interested in them. This just means more qualified candidates as a whole, regardless of any of those factors. That to me is a more long term solution to the problem, and it's the reason I participate in, or sometimes lead STEM sessions which uses various IT or computer engineering related programs that emphasize younger girls who typically aren't exposed to these jobs being something they'd be interested in at an age where they'd start forming their ideas on what to do with their life. Most of this is through normal social engineering that we see today, and the expectations and general cultural constructs that men and women have in society, which is ingrained in them at a young age. Programs such as this are also branching out into things like marginalized racial groups, immigrants, and more recently under-privileged areas with a focus on recognizing talent or ability with the purpose of helping with scholarships or financial aid....which is actually pretty exciting, although not much of that around where I live. As far as your rebuttal goes though, focusing or going too much towards diversity does indeed mean that people that shouldn't get a job over someone else do. I've seen it happen at big studios that claim to be diverse....even one that was owned by a publisher who is considered well ahead of the curve, and often celebrated across many IT fields, on their hiring policies on this matter. I won't say that it's always the case, because it most certainly isn't, but it does happen enough that it shouldn't be happening at all. A bigger problem I see though is that there is this systemic undercurrent which seems to automatically think that some of the talented people that fall into under-represented groups got their jobs because of that. However, in the end, I've also noticed that a person's work ethic, and actual work output tends to make that go away after a while....although I assume that isn't the case at every studio. I will say though, that this debate does tend to go to the extremes on either side. Lots of anecdotal thoughts, or sometimes just misconceptions. The good or bad of it all tends to be somewhere in the middle, and more often than not, the actual outcome at any given company is probably negligible. The effect it has, has more of an impact when taken as a large data set, because at any given company, you may only have 3-4 out of 100 that may get hired because of something like this....and that's assuming a large studio. More often than not, not hiring someone because of discriminatory factors would mean losing out on talent more than the other way around.
-Foxtrot, in the same breath, diversity could mean the best talent. It can be sliced multiple ways.
But we all know what they mean. They mean, "look at us! Aren't we nice? We're doing the PC thing! Bang on trend! Love us for this and give us your money!" What I want them to say, is, "look at us, we're getting the best person for the job every time, ensuring fairness to everyone! No box-ticking here! Just awesome games incoming, because that's our sole focus and THAT'S why we deserve your money!"
Then they should say getting "the best talent" is what is important.
You mean that what some peiple mean when they say that. You can't broad brush everything.. i do not know what they mean neither do you. They are not supposed to say what you want them to say, the same goes for me, or what anyone else wants them to say. I see what you are trying to say, but as aforementioned, they may be hire the best and diverse team. How do we know they are or are not. It ttypically don't make assumptions. Also, PC is subjective. What one person calls PC isn't the same for others.
Nope. If you go for talent you may get diversity and talent. But if you go for diversity you may not get the talent.
It does go both ways. However, I think the idea of hiring someone to meet a quota is also more an active decision than the other way around, as many people don't actually realize their own perception bias when it comes to race or gender related equality in the workplace. While I have no data other than my own perceptions, I've always felt that not hiring someone because they're a woman, or of a certain race, means potentially losing out on talent. Diversity hires, at least in IT fields, do tend to at least try to find someone qualified...even if they're not the most qualified. However, nowadays, the most qualified can sometimes have a hard time finding a job, because it's cheaper to get someone with less experience.
Being diverse is OK as long as it doesn't extend to abusers and sexual predators.
Ubisoft have been banging this drum for years and it was all very clearly empty statements. We know exactly how this diversity was treated within their studios for a long time now
The more diverse a company or organizations' leadership is, the more efficient its output. That's a statistical probability.
What happened to Rare from the old days
Maybe if they focused on actual talent instead of having tunnel vision for race only, they'd produce better games!
And like a lot of companies More important than quality
Here's a top tip, if you think your portfolio is letting your application down, tell them that you transitioning into a black lesbian that also has autism. On a side note, I've seen what they're working on for their next game, and it looks like the biggest load of hippy rubbish I've seen in a long time, i wouldn't be surprised if they shipped the game in a hemp case. That's where forced diversity gets you i guess, making hippy hemp games for vegans.
Lmao at using hemp!
The Times we live in...
Merit over diversity.
as consumers we dont give a s**t. Hire the right man/woman/ attack helicopter for the job and if they are talented enough, the game will sell by itself
So you pick diversity over talent? How about you make it more about the right person for the job and less about politics and trying to get a pat on the back from SJWs?
"Psst, hey, look at me. I'm woke and a good person. Just thought you should know" If everyones working equally as hard, it's very unfair to reward and spotlight someone that fills in a different block on their employment papers. If someone else is working harder, then they're going to feel unappreciated when someone next to them has leadership praise with the premise that they meet a non-work related requirement. What's worse is if someone uses this to make themselves look like better people.
I just came here to read comments from the keyboard racists.
And yet, not a single racist comment can be found.
Says a keyboard racist...
Thanks Brand for copy paste statement no:58649. I was just thinking how brand hasn't come out and said they have a diverse team yet and was about to tweet about their backwards ways.
Diversity is very important. If I were the head of a studio I would want not just those with skill, but people who think unalike. If that meant hiring up only white doods then so be it. If that offends you, thats your problem. Diversity to me means having a palette of different personalities, and people with a passionate imagination.
Diversity is important. (Keep in mind whether they pick a black, white, latino, Japanese, or Indian, those people still have the qualifications for the job) Having different people from around the world in a studio can lead to more diverse ideas. Personally, i love a diverse work place, a diverse portfolio, a diverse community, diverse music, diverse shows, diverse games, diverse environments in games and above all, i love diverse foods. Why does the term Diversity trigger so many gamers, i am actually curious about this.
I would respond to that, but the fact that you were too lazy up to this point, to read or listen/watch anything about it on even Youtube, determines that it would be a waste of time. Diversity of thought > diversity of color/orientantion/(insert any other thing I don't give a crap about, as it's just as important to me as what kind of food someone likes. Not interested. Don't care.)
Diversity of thought can come from having a diverse group of people from around the world. Also, you don't need to care and your input is not needed. Companies will do as they please, deal with it or move on. Whether you agree with it or not, many companies see this as a positive and will do what they want. I would respond to that, but the fact that you were too lazy up to this point I can know all your points and still disagree with them all. You are clearly not mature enough to have this conversation Anyway whatever makes you sleep
While the thought of diverse ideas within a studio is all good and stuff, the truth is, is that the creators and directors tend to be the ones in charge. While a diverse group may be asked for input or suggestions at some point on that production, once it's set in motion, the idea of that diversity adding significantly to the project is just not a thing that happens. It leads to bad design, and it's much better to have a clear road ahead once production starts. The best games come from strong leadership, not a diverse group of coworkers. In fact, when it comes to the actual work, a hive mind with a common goal tends to be more productive. On a higher level, say executives or decision makers at a publisher, diversity can indeed be more beneficial, but nowadays, game publishing is more about playing the numbers of what is popular, rather than trying to make things diverse and different. That's a core problem that has nothing to do with actual diversity in the work place....just trepidation towards losing money on unproven metrics.
It leads to bad design, and it's much better to have a clear road ahead once production starts Can you please link me to the study that was conducted for you to reach such a conclusion? You can have a strong leadership as well as a diverse team, it's not one or the other. You can come from very different cultures and still share a hive mentality about work and achieving a goal. I literally deal and manage freelancers from around the world and we all work towards the same goal, we have different ways of approaching projects, but the goal remains the same. I would hate for my coders to have a hive mentality. If Rare thinks having a diverse group works for them, let them, i don't know why some gamers get so triggered by this topic. Naughty Dog, Santa Monica and insomniac have very diverse teams, other devs, who are not so diverse, sometimes bring in contractors from around the world to help, whiles adding those new ideas to their games. Some gamers might not like this, but the honest truth is their opinion is not needed, if any company thinks having diverse teams is going to benefit them, they will keep doing it, doesn't matter what i or you think
No study. Just common sense, and my own practical experience working in various studios or productions. The one's that have clear direction, and strong leadership, tend to go smoother, which tends to lead to better games. In those kinds of environments, when people bring up ideas not in the core design, they are often hard to get into the production, as the director knows that changing things too much is disruptive. Yes, you can have strong leadership and a diverse team. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point was that once production starts, diversity isn't going to bring in new ideas, and the average studio worker doesn't typically have that much into the actual production.
It doesn't let me post the comment, so divided. Part 1/2: This is exactly what I expected to see if I wasted my time to respond. Nonsense. You come up with big words "I do, I work, I manage" and "show me studies". Oh. You're a smart guy, aren't you? How typical. And of course, the gamers are "triggered". I am mature enough, thank you. Probably twice as old as you are. There's a shitstorm going on since years now. Plenty of mature and wise conversations about it even on Youtube. And you come here, call people triggered, wasting time to writing long comments, but unwilling to read/watch/listen anything about it. Diversity of cultures and colors in a team might help. And might not. Just like listening to different type of music can. Or not. Why we don't have soldiers placed in companies who ensure there's a diversity of music taste in game developer teams? Cause that doesn't make sense? Well what a coincidence. The SJW crap and all the diveristy enforcements, virtue signalling etc. can damage the games. And it often does. But you won't know about it if you never hear the arguments of other side. Especially if you live in a media or (think-alike friends) bubble which blocks everyone by twisting what they say and calling them alt-right or -ists or -isms. (t.b.c. in next comment)
Comment had to be split. This is part 2/2: Comics. Movies. Games. Looks like a warground, with plenty of victims lying around like dead bodies after a battle. Diversity is trendy. It's being bullied and shoe-horned into companies. In a perfect world, which will never exist, it would be just positive (cause let's be clear here: I have nothing against hiring different people from different places/cultures/colors if it's reasonable and logical) but the reality is that it does a lot of damages. Instead of people who could do the job well, we see idiots being hired, who are more focused on pushing their political views on everyone, rather than doing good stuff of whatever they work on. We see plenty of this and yet you come here and ask a very, very silly question "why gamers get triggered". Are you aware there's millions of gamers? If you focus on 0,01% retards who are actually dumb, racist and whatever, who don't want anyone in the team to be even a bit different, then you will miss many opinions with actual merit. I am not even 1% as good at explaining this topic and providing arguments as many other people are. But just do some research. It's like right in your face, like 2 seconds of googling away. It got to the point, that when I see a company bragging about diversity, I immediately am worried and pessimistic about the quality of the work they'll do. Lastly, the thing which can actually trigger you: there are teams which create good stuff in a certain way, and lack of diversity is their strenght. Not because they're racist, but because it might be exactly the culture which goes in line with whatever they create. For example, take Metropolis Street Racer and Project Gotham Racing games. launch them, play them. What do you notice? You notice a certain vibe to it. A very uniform and common vibe across all of those games. People who created it might've been a very diverse team or not at all, but they created something with a certain way of doing it, a certain vibe. If you went back in time and changed a lot in the team between those games, the next one would not have that unique feeling the fans loved so much. This one was western, even "English". But same goes for other cultures. I really don't mind if a Japaneese game is created by 100% Japaneese team. I'd rather have them doing the games as the "Japan way of making games" dictates, when I choose to play a Japaneese game. If they suddently hire a western guy (color and culture aside, whatever) it could be a negative overall. So diversity even before being affected by the media and SJW push, is not "all rosy". And that's like a no-argument or 0,0001% argument. If you put an effort into it, you'll find people 100x more intelligent than me, providing real arguments, way better than I could ever do. Will you? Or will you stay ignorant, calling people "triggered" and enjoy your think-bubble?
If you put an effort into it, you'll find people 100x more intelligent than me, providing real arguments Just as I can search online and find people 1000x more intelligent than you providing real arguments in favor of diversity. Are you going to provide me with studies or not? Whatever makes you sleep bro, p
I don't need your studies about diversity being helpful or not. It's not a thing of an interest to me. I think it can be helpful just as it can be not helpful. And I know it can be harmful, when forced. I was talking about going and reading/listening to people you insult by calling "triggered gamers". I meant going there. Please pick one of many logical arguments and facts and try to come up with a contr-argument. If you can. You probably can but are too arrogant to do so. Or too sure you're in the right. Challenge your point of view. That's how you grow a person.
I asked a simple question Why does the term Diversity trigger so many gamers? Did you ever think it might not have been geared towards you? There are many so called gamers that get triggered by games having gay people. Have you read some of the user reviews for TLOU part 2. I asked a simple like what i just asked, Why does having gays in games trigger so many gamers? Or why some gamers get triggered when their religion is in a game, but not when other religions are? I like having these conversations. There are people that truly get triggered by the word diversity, their points don't seem valid, so i want to know why? Do you recall, when Narrative Director of Dragon Age 4 said the new game will be celebrating diversity and differences? I recall how negative so many gamers took it, without even waiting for an explanation people went after him and many voice their hate towards the game before even seeing it, calling it woke, or SJW. This told me, many of these people have never played a Dragon Age game and were only reacting to the word diversity. Maybe in the new Dragon age, human and other races have to form stronger bonds to fight a new race, or evil, maybe there will be tension between the races, maybe a new civil war is taking place with humans.
No wonder these people haven't made a good game in nearly forever. Focus on hiring talent, not skin color
I prefered the less diverse team, but the team which included all the talented people who left the company after Microsoft takeover, which resulted in downgrading the studio from the one of my favorites, one that made the games I loved the most, to a company which didn't release a single game since Banjo N&B that interest me in a slightest way. And no, I'm not sentimental. I was already 19 when I played my first Rare game. From Donkey Kong Country on SNES, to some live service crap done in "diverse" visual style which I find absolutely off-putting. Where are top class single player platformers, you "diverse Rare", huh? Where are even just very good ones (Kameo)? Where are even just good ones (Banjo)? Why Playtonic made a joke about Kinect and Microsoft, huh? How about that, you diverse Rare? Why people who left this once beloved company, were able to create decent games and your super diverse team can't? Also, for showing Conker character a few years ago, just to not create a sequel, sincere Fuck You, diverse Rare. What a tragic downfall. Sadly, one of (too) many.
just hire who is the best in their field, not based on their skin colour or ethnicity
Ahhh, going down the path of Hollyweird I see, aren't we Rare? I seriously wonder when people are going to equate quality with actual talent instead of their skin color or religion, who the fuck cares?! I want some goddamn quality games worth playing, and please, hold the political messages..they're not needed in my games.
what are they trying to run? company or a zoo? if have to lower your standars only to hire color people you are racist.
Needs to be a balance. Hiring someone just because they are not a white male is a disservice to all races and genders. A balance between talented and a good mix for the group. Forcing diversity agendas and meetings and fucking parades within a company just creates extremists on all sides.
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