Does Naughty Dog love Ellie too much? Would The Last of Us Part II be a more satisfying experience if she were allowed to be a true villain? Wccftech delves deeply into that question.
Don't think there was a real plan for Ellie. Druckmann didn't really want to do anything with the characters. his goal from the start was to try to manipulate the players emotions. most of us saw through it. that is why there is no sense in the narrative and the plot is all over the place. the whole story is just shock triggers spread throughout.
For the most part, they stay pretty true to the characters...but there are definitely a few times when making a point seems to come first.
No they don't. Ellie is now a grumpy teenager who has Daddy issues and Joel is just straight up written out before the game begins.
First to comment again huh? Quite a life you have. Do you have any other interests beside talking about games you hate?
Do you have any other interests besides jumping to this games defense? Why not play the game some more?
I've played 60 hours in a week and a half. And I'm not defending it. I'm fine if people don't like it. I just hate trolls. Clearly he has nothing else going on in life right now
Of course he doesn't. He's sitting in his parents basement all day with no life, hence the whining and crying. Never have i seen such a loser in my life.
@Pedantic91: Do you have any other interests besides jumping to defend a loser? The game has a 55% completion rate. That is almost unheard of. Loser #2
.... said the loser.
You might want to take a look in the mirror. Your comments here sound like you have some serious issues.
Look who it is. You must stalk this site waiting on another last of us article.
Good point. I've always been of the belief that when a story teller makes us feel things, their purpose is to manipulate us. Not sure what they're trying to achieve with said manipulation, but damn it, I'm a free thinker. But damn it also, I felt stuff during this game. Cant really say what the manipulation in this game managed to make me do on druckmanns behalf either. Maybe I wasnt receptive to those subliminal messages they tucked into the game. Stupid ps4p only doing 30fps. If it could hit 31fps druckman would now rule the world. I wish I could be as awesome as you, and not feel things. That would be so awesome. Then no one could manipulate me. Sure.....that's basically the definition of psychotic, but at least my mind would be my own. Sadly for you though, going straight to the hate side of things is what makes someone a sociopath. So...you have that to fall back on.
Well said. Watch Angry Joe’s YouTube review. He kind of nails it. Also, I have to say, guys, gals, can we keep this comment section civil please? It would be cool if we could state our opinions about games without being personally attacked. I mean, isn’t that what this site is for? Cheers
I think Ellie would have been an awesome villain.She already proved that she will do whatever it takes, but of course they made her soft in the end. But, I really enjoyed the game. To me, it was every bit as good as the first one.
Same same. In the end I was left feeling sorry for her. And wanted her to be in a better place. Now that she has forgiven Abby and broken the cycle.... When she pulled the knife on lev I was ready to just let abby pummel her. But Ellie redeemed her self in the end by not going al the way.
They didn't make her soft. She held i6n to her last shred of humanity. She didn't just save Abby, she saved herself. At least thats my interpretation. There's no right or wrong answers here.
Yeah no right or wrong answers here. It’s such a mess of feelings, this game man. It’s been 2 weeks and still on my mind constantly. Sony has shown brass balls letting naughty dog do this story in this game. So good.
Yeah I honestly haven't thought so much about a piece of media since I saw The Joker. I've watched so many reviews, watched and read so many discussions. I finished the game in 40 hours and started again right away going for the platinum. I never do that I'm not a trophy Hunter. This game is in my head now. It's kind of sad the people that don't like it can't at least give it credit for its bravery. We whine that games don't take risks and play it safe. This game so didn't do that. Credit where credits due.
True true, yeah joker also left a lot to discuss about. I try not to get involved in this toxic culture of ours too much. But the way I see it people that are so upset about Joel’s death are basically what Ellie has been doing through most of this game. Angry furious mad and out for blood. It’s funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Bunch of hypocrites they boo Abbey out one side of their mouth and cheer Elle out the other
I think people have lost the whole narrative of what real life is all about! How far would you go? What would you do? And just like real life, what are your standards and moral values!? As much as we'd like to say we would react in a certain way given a certain circumstance....many of us wouldn't simply because of our moral codes and values. Sure they can be tested and even over extended, in the end they are limited to who you are and what you're will to do due to circumstance.
How was she soft? She tortured and murdered people, got impaled, dealing with ptsd, got her fingers bitten off, stabbed the shit out of Abby and tried to drown her, then decided she couldn't deal with anymore death for that day. Is that not a decision the character is allowed to make? Maybe she thought Abby finally had enough after seeing her tortured and strung up, and knew she'd be killing the kid as well by finishing her off.
I don't think she felt sorry for Abby at the end. At least not to the point of forgiving her. I also don't think she actually forgave Abby like some people think. I thought that after my first play through, but on the 2nd I felt that her reasons for letting Abby go were because she saw Abby was a lot like Joel. She came to understand why Joel saved her, which is what she was upset about. Abby willing to fight for Lev, was analogous to Joel fighting to save Ellie because of how he felt about her. I believe, although I'm still working out if this was in the story, that her change of heart was more due to realizing that she was losing herself like Joel had after Sarah died, and she recognized that she was the one that brought his humanity back. Gotta remember, just like Joel, she witnessed the person she cared about the most dying. Sarah's death was no less horrific for Joel, as Joel's death was for Ellie....although Joel's was more gruesome. She forgave Joel, not Abby, and after that, she came to feel that she could move on. She lost everything else in the process though, which I feel was a major moral of the story. Haven't worked that theory out completely yet, but I picked up on a few cursory allusions to this. Of course, the ending may have also had multiple layers, and for the whole of the game, outside the pacing issues, I feel the ending fell somewhat flat because not enough exposition was given on why Ellie did what she did. There wasn't enough build up through the game like in the first so we understood her motivations like we did with Joels. We understood Abby, but Ellie was an unexplained enigma, or possibly just left open to interpretation.
If you look at the Whole Story from the first game to this one.You realize Joel is the bad guy who ruined a lot of lives by being selfish and not doing the right thing. Its just that we where watching the whole thing from his and Ellie’s perspective, So we saw them as the good people.That is what has all the fanboys butthurt and crying. These are the same people who dislike a movie cuz the hero dies in the end.
They are assuredly also the same people who think they sound smart by talking about "plot armor" when all the main characters survive in a game/movie. It's too bad, because while playing, I thought we'd all be having interesting discussions about the ethics of Joel's decision to save Ellie at any cost vs. Dr. Anderson's decision to perform surgery on Ellie, or Abby's justification for seeking revenge vs. Ellie's justification, and what it meant that Abby was far more restrained in her quest than Ellie was. Instead it's just people who haven't played the game complaining about things that aren't in the story, people who missed plot points or can't understand them talking about how the story doesn't make sense and then just repeating the same assertion on thread after thread after every complaint has been carefully explained (anyone who has been in here the past few days knows who I'm talking about), and people who are just mad that it wasn't a generic story of Joel and Ellie going across the country together again and "winning" against some "bad guys."
Almost perfect summary.
Yet "plot armor" would have been fine for Joel.
@Ouchiehurts I'm loving that your justification for why the game is bad is that people are ripping on it, and you also use the fact that some people like it as evidence that it is bad. Your logic is self-contradictory. And if course none of your comments have any actual critiques of the game, just "well some YouTubers who usually play Apex legends didn't like it, so it must be bad."
Good summation. There is a lot of nuance within each character decision and what people think is the right or wrong decision varies by person. I thought the game was brilliant. Visceral.
@Ouchieshurts Your name and poor explanation of the game fits you like a Sumo wrestler wearing a extra small wife beater tank top.
It would seem you haven’t bothered actually reading any criticism.
Some of my favorite films: -The Fly (1983): Hero dies in the end -Avengers Infinity War: Thanos wipes out half the universe (and I hated it's sequel when it went soft and undid it) -Departed (Hero dies) Etc. I love when a game has the villain win/hero dies. I dislike this game because the story is weak, convoluted, tge characters whoafully underdeveloped (Jessie and Dina come to mind), weak motives (no good logical reason for Abby to continually keep sparing Ellie), etc. I don't care if the hero dies, so long as the story is actually good.
I'll give you points for pointing to underdevelopment with Dina, since that's one of the first valid criticisms of this game I've seen anyone make on here. While the story establishes through flashbacks that Ellie was friends with both her and Jesse for awhile, it did seem like she went from "we kissed a few times and smoked pot together" to "I'm coming on your revenge quest hundreds of miles away." Although I understand why they did it; it's the same reason they had Abby find Joel so conveniently: they wanted the game to get moving.
I think The Fly remake was released in 86, but good point tho.
I think Mel and Manny were boring, totally unlikable characters whose best purpose was to forward the plot. Just means to an end. Didn't care for them at all.
I will agree that Dina was underdeveloped, although I think Jessie was just a supplemental character that we didn't really have to come to care about for any narrative purpose. Same goes for almost everyone on Abby's crew....who I found mostly insufferable outside Owen who at least seemed like a decent guy, and was developed pretty well for what was kind of the counterpart of what Dina was to Ellie. "no good logical reason for Abby to continually keep sparing Ellie" She spared Ellie's life twice. First time was because she had no beef with Ellie, and she wasn't out to just kill everyone....which is counter to what Ellie ended up doing. 2nd time, she was willing to kill both Ellie and Dina because Ellie had taken what she cared about most from her, but.....and now for the logic of it.....she didn't want to be a bad person anymore. Her entire story arc after killing Joel was her feeling guilty. She hadn't forgiven Joel, but she realized that revenge didn't change anything but herself. In her pursuit to kill Joel, she had become what Ellie had become during her pursuit of Abby, and with Lev being there to stop her, he became a reminder that she wanted to move away from the violence, and be a good person. The logic of it, was that she had the same path to redemption and finding her own humanity that Joel did. The logic after that was that that is what Ellie saw in her, which made her understand why Joel did what he did, which in turn allowed her to forgive Joel....hence the final flashback scene making it a point that was something she wanted to do. The game doesn't spoon feed you the answers, and I will wholly admit they could have built up the ending much better, or alluded to things a lot more, but I think maybe it's not that the story isn't logical....just that you haven't found the logic. There are probably others who could posit other logical theories as well. The problem itself wasn't with the story, it was that it was not always that clear at first glance what was happening or why. Unfortunately, some people think that means bad story, and stop trying to figure it out. But this story had depth, nuance, and multiple interpretations. It's only fault was some pacing, and a poorly realized climax/conclusion. Perhaps if you think on it more, you might come to appreciate it more...assuming you have the will to do so. I think overall though, you're comment is more reasonable than many who are commenting on the story, and would prefer more comments like these to take precedence over the rampant hate....although I wouldn't mind more explanation on your points.
Ellie has value. She's immune. Perhaps Abby wants her alive to finish what her father wasn't allowed to. Initially I had the same gripe. She let her go multiple times and it's almost frustrating.
Joel getting killed made a lot of sense to me when considering what he did and the effects of thos action to so many ppl, and even preventing the possibility of a cure. The more i got to know Abbys srory and action i came to consider Ellie almost more the villian, not much unlike many would have seen Joel in first game after his killingspree at the end of the first game. I liked the game overall but was dissapointed how the made Ellie and think they should have steered in the direction of Ellie joinig the newly found fireflys. There was alot they could have done with them instead it all came down to hate and revenge
I'm thinking the third game could see Abby finding the fireflies and Ellie eventually making the journey to give her life for the cure.
Depends on how you define bad. Joel's motivations for saving Ellie, or even many of the things he did escorting Ellie, weren't inherently bad, and there's a strong case to be made along the lines of, "What would you do". Joel certainly wasn't a perfect man though, and it was stated many times in both games that he had done some pretty terrible things in his time. We never really saw Joel being outright evil....although certainly he did some bad things that would be considered bad. This game explores the nature of consequence, anger, and hate. First game explored the nature of love and humanity. The state of human survival itself was just a side note in the overall narrative for both games, and not really that important to delivering the message of these games.
Not doing the right thing? You think cutting up a 14 year old girl without her consent for an unproven medical experiment that had a higher chance of failure than success is the RIGHT thing? You think murdering children for unproven scientific endeavours is a good thing? Josef Mengele would like to have a word with you.
If it will prevent the misery of countless more generations from suffering, then yes, the death of one person for the whole human race can be justified. Ellie seemed to think so, in her flashback scene with Joel (where she says he took away her chance to be important to the human race (i'm paraphrasing)) in the end of TLOU2.
Your critique falls short becasue they didn't need to make her a villain.
Exactly what I was thinking. There are no villains, nor heroes in the game, that's what the game wanted to say. It's just another opinion babbling about a game they didn't fully understand.
Yeah. There was no actual villain or hero in this game....outside maybe the superficial ones used to give some conflict mostly unrelated to the main plot. Or rather, both Abby and Ellie were not just a villain, but also a hero....although Abby more so in this game. Both were antagonist and protagonist depending on whose side of the story you were playing.
Falls short of what? It’s gotten critical acclaim and sold extremely well.
And the people who supposedly hate it apparently think about it all the time.
And the ppl who like it worship it all the time. Ur really taking this utter failure at a basic narrative pretty hard huh? For someone that thinks pretty highly of themselves u sure do think about other ppls opinions about it all the time 😀. Do urself a favor and stay in ur little echochamber. This game is being laughed at pretty much everywhere so i dont think u have the emotional maturity to discuss this game outside of ur little circle.
@Ouchieshurts So basically you are either parodying the exact people I'm talking about or you are one of them. Works to prove my point either way.
Falls short of the original TLOU. It's not a bad game overall.
looking at the crap pop music, dumbed-down movies, and weak tv shows that get critical acclaim (and awards) nowadays by elite critics, it's not like I put much stock in what they think. I hated TLOU2's story. And I can spend hours breaking down why. Most who like it can't. Especially the so-called gaming journalists.
Im sick of these last of us 2 articles, Jesus Christ. Every day spammed with many opinion pieces after another.
Unlike most video games, TLOU2 actually has something to say and has inspired some critical discussion beyond "the graphics and shooting are good/bad."
TLOU2 has nothing to say. It's a weak pathetic attempt to tell a moral tale about forgiveness, by making Abby (a person who kills hundreds in the game) forgive Ellie twice for no reason, while making Ellie look like the villain until the end when she forgivess Abby (also for no other reason other than seeing Joel flash before her eyes). Joel being the very person she was motivated to get revenge FOR. You can like it all u want, but you're easily impressed. It has such a weak ploy to manipulate the low IQ easipy emotionally manipulated gamer. The tired tropes in this game could fill a whole library's worth of books. People can downvote me all they want, but can't defend this game's plot when compared to the near-perfect first game. And that's provable: TV tropes website (which exposes the tired borrowed cliched tropes of shows, movies and games) did a page on TLOU2 and it's already the longest page yet for a single piece of media due to how many tropes it relies on: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki...
lol What? Her story was the worst. Literally all she does is kill people the entire time. I wanted Abby to kill her.
I am confused by people saying such nonsense. Playing the game and with out Spoilers Abby and Eli have lived a life from different ends. Joel was right in his actions and Abby And her dad although coming from a good place were wrong. Why would Eli be the villain doing what she has?
"Joel was right in his actions and Abby And her dad although coming from a good place were wrong." Could you please elaborate?
Not really and Only because some people haven’t played the game. But Abbey and her dad tie into the final scene/gameplay of LOU1 they think they were being moral. I’m not sure how anyone could see Joel and Elli as the villains.
They're all a little villain-y dude. But, that gets broken, with these characters at least.
I think there is an argument to be made that, despite the numbers he killed at the Firefly base, Joel's actions were objectively more ethical than Dr. Anderson's (Abby's Dad), although his motivations were selfish. Dr. Anderson was going to kill a child, while she was unconscious and had no opportunity to consent (and it's debatable whether as a minor she could have consented, but it's telling that she was not given the opportunity), in order to give other people a better life (vaccine eliminates risk of becoming infected). Even if we assume that the vaccine would have been successful and they could have created unlimited doses, this is basically child sacrifice with a basis in science rather than superstition. Of course Joel also didn't give Ellie a choice in leaving the hospital, but the Fireflies forced his hand; recall that when he woke up at the hospital, he wanted to talk to Ellie; had this happened, Marlene and Joel could have given Ellie the choice (again it's debatable whether this is a fair thing to do to a minor, but it's still better than killing her without the choice). Yes, Joel killed many people, but those people were adults willing to kill a child for their own benefit (or voluntarily being associated with a group willing to do so, as presumably every Firefly soldier didn't know the details of the operation). When Ellie found out later, she indicates that she wishes the procedure would have happened, but that doesn't justify Dr. Anderson's attempt to kill her without giving her the choice. The key question is whether the fact of the cordyceps pandemic changes all these ethics; or, put differently, how bad does the world have to be for it to be justifiable to kill an unconscious child for the benefit of other people?
Easy. We’ve already been told that the procedure would likely fail. The chance of there being a success is minimal as Ellie isn’t the first immune and will likely not be the last. The choice of the fireflies to KILL A CHILD for an unproven medical experiment without her consent is evil. Of course Joel did the right thing. Experimenting on children and murdering children, even for science is wrong. There’s a little someone named Mengele who did this sort of thing back in the 1940s. Obviously Joel did the right thing. He saved a 14 year old child from death and experimentation. There’s no justification for murdering a child, especially when the outcome is so unknown.
There was no true villain. No one's black or white. They're all grey. That's the point. You're left to interpret a lot of the morality for yourself. That's why this game is such a topic of discussion.
Abby is definitely the villain of the first half of the game. A "villain" is largely a matter of perspective -- TLOU2 would have been better if we were allowed to see a villainous Ellie through Abby's eyes. Instead, they just sidestep it.
It was surprising to me how late in Abby's campaign she found out that the Jackson crew was there hunting her friends down.
@Jeece I thought about that too. Most of the time, she thought it was the scars, although at some point, it was the trespassers who she just thought were random people maybe. On the 2nd play through I picked up more since I was paying attention to timelines between the two scenarios more. She actually seemed scared after Tommy attacked her. She seemed confused when Ellie came out of the theater. It was like she hadn't actually expected them to come after her. She thought that Ellie would have just taken the chance to live and gone on living. It hadn't occurred to her that Joel may have someone that would feel the same way about him, that she had for her dad, and I think that was a powerful motivator for Abby for the conclusion. She came to understand Ellie, because she had already gone through it herself. I don't know if there was any reason for doing it this way, but I think it was more because if she knew from the beginning, she may have become more emboldened by her justification, and she wouldn't have had that spark rekindled after Owen's death as much, as it wasn't immediately obvious to Abby or her crew that they were hunting the St. Louis Firefly group. Even Tommy and Ellie didn't realize who they were hunting until mid-way through their scenario....although I think Tommy found out later.
Abby* They tried to make us hate a character we loved (Joel), sad for a character who was just s no name NPC in part 1(the doc) and like a character who didnt exists in part 1 who also killed the character most fans felt attached to (Joel). The game was good tho. I liked the ending. I just always wanted to get back to Ellies story.
“Falls short”...yeah right 😆 It’s one of the best games ever made.
It was fairly average
I think druckman has only one plan; destroy everything and watch it burn.