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Dina Deserved Better Than The Last of Us 2's Ellie

Throughout the entirety of The Last of Us: Part 2's gameplay and story, Ellie constantly did things which proved she was a terrible partner to Dina.

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Gamerking8240d ago

She does but she was more of an annoyance in my opinion after a bit . I mean I personally though ended up disliking Ellie also .

Game-ur39d ago

can't feel anything because the characterization isn't consistent and keeps suddenly changing according to forced plot events.

Name Last Name39d ago

We get it. You hate the game. Stop commenting on every single story.

Game-ur39d ago

@Name Last Name
I need to explain why. Bathyj below said it "had to be Joel that died". this is proof event's in the story were targeted to manipulate the emotions of the player and not the growth or decent of the characters. but it only works on those easily manipulated. and this renders all argument for the motivations of the characters moot. because there is no real case or effect in the game. Just the writer trying to pull the strings of the player. and this failed on most people.

anast39d ago

@ Game-Ur

All writing and forms of entertainment are designed to speak to or manipulate the audience, none of which is a necessity for rendering a character's motivation irrelevant. It means that you didn't like the story, which does not negate motivation, it projects your motivation on to the characters.

I could also argue that you are easily manipulated by things you deem trite. If the characters motivations were actually moot, then a constant barrage of repetitive finger wagging would not be needed, unless it's all in good fun, then I say carry on.

sampsonon39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

I love the way Joel died. He had it coming and the game was better off without him :) 10/10 fo the bashing of joel's head alone. Bravo!!

I love watching people cry over a video game character like they lost their father.... amusing to say the least.
Best game ever because of that as well. Thanks ND:)
https://tenor.com/view/joke...

jimbost7939d ago

@Game-UR

Thanks mate, I thought I enjoyed the game. Thought the story was good, not as good as the first game, but still good.
But thanks to you and your superior intellect I now know that I didn't like it and am easily manipulated.
Could I pm you so you can tell me of any other storys I thought I liked but I didn't really?
You need to let it go pal.

Game-ur39d ago

@anast

"All writing and forms of entertainment are designed to speak to or manipulate the audience"

actually no, forced character manipulation stuff is for daily soap operas and cheap teen drama. once the initial shock is gone the story has nothing. good fiction lets the characters write themselves. and the stories stand the test of time.

gamer780439d ago

Precisely, the whole story so forced that it feels fake to me.

rainslacker39d ago

Dina was the most consistent character in this game. Man, can you come up with anything that is more than hyperbole, or cite any examples which help clarify the arguments you're making? Do you actually feel you're making strong arguments? Are you just a troll seeing how far you can push people? Is there no redeeming quality to this game that you can find?

+ Show (7) more repliesLast reply 39d ago
Smclaren198539d ago

Yeah She’s was extremely uninteresting

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jBlakeeper39d ago

Same. The fact that Joel didn’t allow a vaccine to be made really speaks about his character. Incredibly selfish. I get why she’s defending him, but I also think that she is selfish too. She refuses to see why.

Imalwaysright39d ago

I suggest you play the original again because the way you're framing what happened isn't in any way accurate. What Joel didn't allow was for someone that he viewed as his daughter to not be killed in a procedure that wouldn't guarantee a cure.

gamer780439d ago

Some people don’t believe that the end justifies the means, and I totally get that.

rainslacker39d ago

So, lets say for the sake of argument, that the first game ended with Ellie being killed for a cure. But, in this scenario, no cure was actually found. Would people be more prone to thinking that Ellie's death was meaningful and Joel's new revenge quest being justified if the 2nd game showed him trying to take out the fireflies....which he kind of did in the first game anyways since he killed all the parties involved with the cure anyways?

Joel was selfish. Joel did supposedly doom humanity to never getting a cure. But, given how he had come to feel about Ellie, and the way the first game made you care about her in the same way, wouldn't it make more sense that he'd protect his own, rather than sacrifice her on the chance that a cure could be made.

Joel was always an imperfect hero. Him saving Ellie was not about him doing the right thing. It was a morally ambiguous situation from start to finish, and ever since that first game, it has been discussed if he did the right thing. Even people that disagree with either side of that topic, tend to understand the other side though, and regardless of how one feels about what he did, they all seem to agree that given how Joel had come to feel about Ellie, and how she obviously felt about him, they'd be hard pressed to make a different decision. Joel's redemption was being able to find his own humanity, the rest of humanity wasn't his concern.

-Foxtrot38d ago (Edited 38d ago )

1) The Fireflies did not have the right technology to manufacture a cure to the masses

2) The Fireflies were not saints, they could have used the cure to dictate and control whenever they saw fit

3) Cutting open Ellie and killing her might not have guaranteed a cure 100%

4) These are the people who beat Joel up, didn't give him half the things he was promised and tried to send him out into the world without any of his gear, basically sending him out to die.

5) Ellie was going to do the operation because she thought she was going to wake back up, she wanted to learn the guitar from Joel and they said once the Fireflies were done with her he'd teach her how to play back in Jackson. She didn't get a choice.

6) Joel saw her as a daughter. Saving her after his awful selfish, Hunter days past, is the best thing he's done in his life.

People really need to stop seeing the small recton bullshit NaughtyDog wants you to see in this game, things they did to force out a new story.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 38d ago
harmny39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

I mean. She was Ellie's girlfriend but she had a baby from another person in her belly. The director of ac Valhalla lost his job for cheating on his wife. So I'd say that Dina deserved to die

rainslacker39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

I think the point of how she treated Dina was to show that Ellie was not much of a good person anymore due to her seeking revenge. I also felt Dina was just kind of a tag along with no real purpose, and outside of some narrative points, she wasn't really needed to be there outside the odd time to help Ellie advance through a garage door or scale a slightly higher wall. But, Ellie going along through all that would have left a rather weak narrative if she had no one to play off of, so if it weren't Dina, it would have had to be someone. Joel wouldn't have made sense to the narrative, even assuming he lived, because he would have tried to put a stop to Ellie's quest long before she got to the point she did. So, at least from a story stand point, Dina was probably as good a choice as anyone. Only other logical character would have been Tommy, but I don't think that would have made much of an interesting relationship to explore.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 38d ago
Mr Marvel39d ago

I hated Dina and really wanted her to die.

Bathyj39d ago

Precisely why in had to be Joel that died at the beginning of the game because if it was Dina like we all thought it was going to be, then who would have really cared or believed that would spark an epic revenge quest?

porkChop39d ago

I mean, they could have written Dina as a better character and it would have worked fine.

Godmars29039d ago

@porkChop:
That would have involved better writing and setup.

Game-ur39d ago

"had to be Joel"

finally admitting it was a forced plot device. like every plot point in the game. and the focus was the emotion of the player not the character in the story.

sampsonon39d ago

@Game-ur: " finally admitting it was a forced plot device. like every plot point in the game. and the focus was the emotion of the player not the character in the story."

Jesus Christ!! You're a F in loser lol wow!

zeuanimals39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

@Game-ur:

You make no sense whatsoever. You're really just showing that you know jack all about storytelling. The focus wasn't on the emotion of the player as the characters are feeling similar raw emotions, right? And those characters change based on what happened to them, right? Wanna know something that TLOU2 does that no other media has ever done, it made me genuinely wish that person was still around so amends can be made and a proper farewell can be said. But much like in life, you don't always get that. Sometimes, you never get to patch it up with your father before he passes. TLOU2 made me feel that same loss of connection that Ellie feels. And guess what? Coming to terms with this fact is what develops Ellie as a character. But sure, it's all about manipulating the player's emotions.

Game-ur39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

@zeuanimals
Ellie had the talk with Joel that night. the character knew it. what was the point of the Santa Barbra arc? what experience did she have there that changed her while the events at the aquarium didn't? nothing in the story causes this. she saw a vision and suddenly she changed.
the story is just broken all over

Sunny_D39d ago

@game-ur

I guess you never watched any sort of media where the main characters dies then? I guess if they die, it’s always a forced plot device? yawn. Please don’t let me ever see you complain about generic story telling from now on when creators are too scared to deviate from the norm.

rainslacker39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

They'd have to build a lot of narrative to get Dina to the point that it would make sense. Particularly since Ellie and Dina were just starting their intimate relationship a day or two before Joel was killed. I'd be hard pressed to believe that Ellie would go off the wall bat sh*t psycho over some chick that she knew for a couple days. She had known the death of much dearer friends and had come to accept it as the norm.

Joel, OTOH, was like a father to her. He meant everything to her, and even when she was mad at what he did, she didn't want to be apart from him after her initial anger went away....hence the flashback at the end.

The game already had pacing issues, so putting in a long drawn out narrative to build Dina as a character we cared about, and could believe that Ellie was that close to, especially at her age, and how little she really connected with others, would have been more problematic.

About the only other person that maybe could have had the same effect would have been Ellie's mother, but Ellie said she was gone, which most seem to believe means that she was dead, because Marlene took Ellie in because she was a friend of Ellie's mother. While this was left vague in the original game, Ellie said, "where are anyone's parents"(or something to that effect), and her mother could have easily been written back into the story, it just wasn't to be, and Ellie seemed to not really have that much connection or much to say about her mom in the first game. However, I still recall the first trailer with Abby, where a lot of people thought it might be Ellie's mother, so I guess some people would have been prepared for it.

rainslacker39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

@Game-Ur

I don't think you know what a forced plot device is.

From some random dude explaining it to someone else on the net.

"A forced plot is one in which the development of the story relies on putting things into the story that force events to proceed in the specific way, relying on elaborate coincidence, extremely unlikely events, or other plot devices to get from plot point 1 to plot point 2 etc with no effort to find more believable and fitting ways to advance the plot."

So, what part of Joel's death meets this criteria?

1. The story did rely on Joel's death to proceed. But that isn't forced, that's a primary plot point of the story. It wasn't a matter of advancing the plot, but setting up the plot. Big difference.

2." relies on putting things into the story that force events to proceed in the specific way"
How exactly did the story have to proceed the way it did because of Joel's death? Ellie could have just grieved and come to accept it. But, she wanted revenge, which again, is a MAJOR plot point, and all her reasons for wanting revenge were not random or forced, but believable to the well established relationship the two had.

3. "relying on elaborate coincidence" Nope, none of this. Expect maybe Abby and Joel coming into contact with each other, but it wasn't really that elaborate, just that Abby happened to have something coincidental happen to achieve her goal. It was expeditious to get to the main plot point, instead of spending God knows how long having her hunt Joel in Jackson, which would have only delayed the plot, and was counter to the story they were trying to tell, and would have been repetative when we saw Ellie do the same thing.

4. "extremely unlikely events," None of these...outside the typical Naughty Dog set pieces, or any game really.

5. " or other plot devices to get from plot point 1 to plot point 2" Nope, was a pretty basic plot device to get to Joel's death. Everything after was the plot.

6. "with no effort to find more believable and fitting ways to advance the plot"
Perhaps you could offer up some examples of how what the plot points were weren't believable.

From some other random dude

"a forced plot is a plot that does not develop organically from the characters and the environment.."

The plot seemed pretty organic to me, and fit the characters and the environment just fine.

Anyone interested, this was from the first search result in Google and links to Quora. There are a lot of answers to the person's question, with examples, and reading through quite a few of them, I can't find any that would support Joel's death being a forced plot device.

I can accept that Ellie killing some of those she hunted were forced in a way that made it so she did it and not needed for plot purposes....outside maybe a couple people to drive Abby to find Ellie, but it's not really inconsistent to the narrative.

+ Show (6) more repliesLast reply 39d ago
Knushwood Butt39d ago

Forced plot device?

Some of Joel's actions came back to haunt him.

Could have been any number of people. Been a while since I played the first game, but didn't he kill a whole bunch of people?

rainslacker39d ago

Dina was even asking if it was some of the groups that Joel had crossed in the first game when you were first riding into Seattle on Day 1.

harmny39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

Nathan drake killed thousands and he is still alive. They had families too you know

Poopmist39d ago

I don't think she nose better.

Looper39d ago

Gamers are just the best mankind has to offer aren't we?

In case my sarcasm isn't coming through, you're an ass.

MetalGearsofWar39d ago

I assume you also hate this game due to the violence?

Looper39d ago

No, I love this game. The animations were not what the demo promised exactly but they got pretty darn close and excited me to see what ND can do with a proper console not held back by dated gpu and cpu!

Bathyj39d ago

And she's free to deserve away but that doesn't mean you get what you want. People in hell want ice water. She followed Ellie knowing she could be pregnant. She put her own baby at risk.

And Ellie is not the mother despite what the writer thinks. They were together 5 minutes, in fact Dina was pregnant before they were even together. Ellie tried to come home and play happy families but she couldn't put her trauma aside and let it go. So she had to leave.

It's just another example in this game that no one's all right and no one's all wrong.

TFJWM39d ago

They weren't together for 5 minutes. Ellie had feelings for Dina since she got there and Dina had feelings for her for almost as long. She has obviously been playing the role of a mother since JJ was born not sure how she wasn't. Also Ellie seemed to have let it go until Tommy comes and gives her the info and the guilt trips her after she is reluctant to go. If Tommy had stopped looking for Abby Ellie might have never left to get revenge. She might have further down the line but def not when she did.

Ausbo39d ago

She didn’t know she was pregnant until they got on the road though. Which is why Ellie said they could’ve turned around

Looper39d ago

Please. This cesspool? We deserve what we get.

King_Noctis39d ago (Edited 39d ago )

Better news don't get as much discussion and becomes as much heated as news/opinions piece like these on this site.