CBE Software’s Jan Kavan reveals what interests him about the upcoming next-gen console.
And another one speaks out! But of course these developers are wrong/s We are no longer talking about Sony/Microsoft hyping their own products to garner praise, it's far beyond that. It definitely isn't about these developers recieving monotary gains, because let anyone tell you Microsoft is in a much better position to do so! I seriously doubt it's about some secretive NDA's as well, so what is it!? Perhaps exactly what Sony and Mark Cerny said it is "A efficiently built Console"! That can't be defined by any specific part, but of every part as a whole.
Remember though, most of these devs speaking out are working with that console exclusively. Same with the series X. Medium, scorn and the ascent devs have spoken out about the power of the X. These are devs working exclusively on that platform. You have to take it with a grain of salt Bottom line is we have to see the game output, the first party differences and the digital foundry comparisons (if you care about that).
"Bottom line is we have to see the game output, the first party differences and the digital foundry comparisons (if you care about that)." Exactly.
Epic isn't exclusive to Sony
I've got to say if the xbox only looks slightly better and digital foundry has to zoom in on photoshop to find it then I'm of the opinion sony made the right call to have an ultra fast ssd which pumps more things on screen such as particle effects and actual levels
I see your point. Many of these developers who come out to praise next gen hardware have time exclusivity agreements like Scorn and The Medium. Unreal Engine is free for anyone to use and Epic isn't making anything other than MULTIPLATFORM GAMES.
You guys are saying Unreal, but EPIC has a marketing agreement with Sony. There’s a reason they weren’t even allowed to say the word “Xbox” in their interview after the engine demonstration
Ellow. Moy nine is Moichel Kine
funny thing is, this latest developer is just mentioning PS5 whilst talking about a game they have already released. He does not say he is working on a PS5 game.
@ Ausbo "They" don't care about DF when it doesn't fit their agenda
@Kumakai It's well established here that you don't understand the technical terms you talk about. Quit lying on here. Just stop. Frequency cycles? That's not even a term lol. You just thought the two sound right together because all you do is Ad-Lib technical terms. "push it hard on occasion to hit 10 TFLOPS without over-extending the pipeline continously" Nope. Officially the console maintains its 10.28TFlop performance constantly. This was spoken of during the Road To PS5. Variable is to allow excess power and resources to be sent to the GPU from multiple avenues to maintain system stability and lower power usage. Also, to maximize on the fact that CU's are not fully utilized and fall off quite easily as you go higher. " If you let off the throttle in your car, your car uses less energy and slows down. The ps5 is no different. This is basic computing and basic physics." Again, you know nothing. The PS5 is basically just switching gears to maintain speed but use less gas. The games it plays are the roads it drives on that tell it what MPH/KMH it can go. If a game runs at 60fps with the same fidelity even while the system downclocks by 20%, then what's the point in running at 100% clock? There is no reason to be 100% clock if the game isn't demanding enough. The benefit is that these variable designs allows better power delivery to the GPU, the most important factor, which means better stability, less frame-pacing, stuttering, or frame drops. You don't even understand what variable means, completely lie about dropping to 8TF of all numbers, and don't even realize that variable is a common feature for this hardware. The difference is that consoles didn't need variable in the past, but because AMD PowerShift is now a thing, it benefits APU's tremendously. It's not just about being supplied power to get to a TFlop number. It's also the consistency, flexibility, and efficiency of that power delivery that increases performance. Sustained clock speed has zero benefit over variable. Once a product is confirmed to sustain a clock, we already know its capability just the same. PS5 is confirmed to sustain both max clocks simultaneously even in demanding titles. Do you even know that, even while running the same clock constantly, that a GPU can perform slower than usual? If all the resources of the GPU are being utilized, the clock speed is just hogging some juice that can go elsewhere. SmartShift + variable means that even brutally demanding titles that use nearly all GPU resources, and could benefit from even a very small clock decrease to increase efficient cycles and push other hardware will be better off than constant clocks that have no flexibility. Whats your portfolio? What have you worked on? Surely if you know your stuff you'd have no use hiding your success.
Fantastic saved Me explaining it myself, Sony made a mistake by using “variable “ as variable isn’t accurate because as you’ve explained above, perfectly by the way, it remains at those clock speeds almost constantly with occasional 3 percent if needed through smart shift, and that happens very fast we’re talking milliseconds . Doesn’t he know that 12tf in series X is best case scenario?!?! It won’t run at that constantly do some research and you will clearly see
So would u say that ps5 will be at 10.2TF most of the time while xbox series x at 12TF constantly?
@WGAF It depends on the efficiency of the system. TFlops is a theoretical performance measurement. Not real world scenario. It's not even a benchmark. Just taking the specs of the hardware and multiplying them together to have a reference point of power. This is why they say TFlops aren't created equally. NVidia, AMD, and Intel have different architectures with better or worse architectures even within themselves. AMD GCN vs RDNA2 vs RDNA1 Tflops are different as well even though all are AMD. If all had the same 2 Tflops, then RDNA2 would significantly be better for gaming because of its efficiency. However, SX and PS5 are both RDNA2. We don't know how much the Tflop difference means to gaming performance yet. We have to have real world examples to show us. We have a 17% difference in theoretical performance. This doesn't mean much in a games console. It is a slight advantage, but on one hand, we know that the PS5 is all about efficiency. We know that the GPU is not hindered and will be more representative of its theoretical performance. The SX has an older design philosophy, but I'm sure the GPU has no issues being held back on the hardware side. The issue lies with software development. The more CU's you have, the more wasted resources that aren't optimized for unless developers specifically spend the time to do it. CU's have gotten bigger and more feature packed, but increasing CU count is less growth versus finding that sweet spot for CU count and packing more into the CU's themselves. Of course, these two GPU's have the same architecture. The PS5 CU's are simply faster, but less total, unless told otherwise. It just depends on developers taking advantage of them, and if they don't take advantage of a large amount of them, then there is a falloff for a larger count of them. My expectation? PS5 will have more consistent performance with less stutters, frame-pacing, or drops. Not that I'm saying that SX will have these as common issues. Just more likely to have these hiccups in certain situations if the scene wasn't optimized well to address a sudden request in power draw. But, SX might have a very small increase in settings. 3rd parties likely won't take advantage of either system. Just enough to meet the same goal on both. It's like having a car with more horsepower versus a car with less horsepower but other things to make it efficient enough to perform just as well.
From the DF article with Mark Cerny... "Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core." That would explain so many of the games shown at the PS5 event running at 30fps. They are having to throttle the cpu. Mark describing the extra OPTIMIZING developer will have to learn to do. "Mark Cerny sees a time where developers will begin to optimise their game engines in a different way - to achieve optimal performance for the given power level. "Power plays a role when optimising. If you optimise and keep the power the same you see all of the benefit of the optimisation. If you optimise and increase the power then you're giving a bit of the performance back. What's most interesting here is optimisation for power consumption, if you can modify your code so that it has the same absolute performance but reduced power then that is a win. " In short, the idea is that developers may learn to optimise in a different way, by achieving identical results from the GPU but doing it faster via increased clocks delivered by optimising for power consumption. "The CPU and GPU each have a power budget, of course the GPU power budget is the larger of the two," adds Cerny. "If the CPU doesn't use its power budget - for example, if it is capped at 3.5GHz - then the unused portion of the budget goes to the GPU. That's what AMD calls SmartShift." This was the point Jason Ronald from Microsoft was making. Variable frequencies is extra work for developers. As you can see even Lord Cerny is saying so. Optimize!
Well explained sinspirit.
Thank you! This is identical to what Cenry said. I, myself, keep wondering where people kept getting the misunderstanding of this
@WGAF The Teraflop number will never change. I think that's where some people are confused. There's just so much misinformation being spread about what a teraflop is because of people Kumakai. Here is how the teraflops are MEASURED for the GPU's of these consoles: For the PS5 36 Compute Units x 64 shaders x 2223Mhz (Clockspeed) = Total Flops x 2 = 10.28 Teraflops (Flops = Floating Point Operations Per Second) It's a simple mathematical calculation based on the "KNOWN HARDWARE SPECS" The Teraflop number is static it does not change based on down clocking or power reductions, it is a REAL NUMBER. Think of it like this 2+2=4, that equation and it's result are real numbers that will never change. I understand where Kumakai got this silly idea of saying that teraflops go up and down if the PS5's clock speed goes down, they got it from Microsoft executives who said "We could have went with variable clocks," but blah, blah, blah. Microsoft was just damage controlling because they are beginning to realize that teraflops is only one part of a bigger picture. When you see someone trying to change the reality of the PS5's Teraflops basically, they're trying to tell you that 2+2 doesn't equal 4. Know and understand that there are only three ways to see this: 1. The person saying it has no idea what they're talking about because they obviously believe that 2+2 doesn't equal 4 2. They are fanboys who are spinning something Microsoft said in order to reassure themselves 3. A combination of both 1 & 2
You can't say "less frame pacing". Frame pacing is simply how long a frame remains on screens. You should have written "more consistent frame pacing". Still, great explanation! I 🙂
@sub, you forgot the rest of that quote where they state they are still coding with the jaguar's in mind.... "Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores." They really just need to start coding to the hardware and stop worrying about cross gen, it's not the variable frequencys that's the problem, its devs not moving forward.
why does that matter to you so much?
It must be true seeing as its being reported on by the most trusted site on the internet..... gamingbolt
And many many other sites. But let's keep ignoring it all right Darth?
Apparently, no site, or person, is credible enough to keep some people from accepting what is said on why the PS5 might be a good console. But yeah, Gamingbolt still sucks.
It's called context. When something is consistantly being reported as factual regardless of source, it give that aspect or probability there truth behind it. As much as certain ones want to try and destabilize the conversation surrounding PS5 and its capabilities, time and time again they're failing miserable. It true for whatever reason there are those who would love to see Sony on bended knees, but I'm calling it now.....not going to happen
"That can't be defined by any specific part, but of every part as a whole." This is every piece of hardware or computer or console.The same could be said about Xbox one PlayStation 4 Xbox one x series x. Seriously.
Yeah, but this is gamingbolt.
It seems their CPU is more flexible than expected.
I can't believe all these devs conspired and agreed to all lie about that weak station 5,i was told xb being more powerful equals winning the generation. The only person who tells the truth is Phil Spencer just like when he said high fidelity vr because it is still coming. Sony ps5 is doa
Dude what on earth are you talking about? Just exactly what is this dev from a game I’ve never even heard of saying when he speaks out? I read the article twice and he isn’t talking about the series x the author mentions it but he don’t directly. Basically all he says is he wants to work on the ps5 because of tempest . Sound. Sony and the ps5 are hard up when the ONLY thing you got to hype your console up is a new way of delivering sound that probably won’t work for everyone. You are twisting peoples words to fit a specific agenda. Just because one thing is better doesn’t mean the other one is bad. The ps5 will be great and doesn’t need anyone making excuses for it even if it is weaker than the competition. Just enjoy the system and it’s wonderful games when it comes out
The car analogy is stupid. Maybe if you guys said NASCAR stock car doing the Daytona 500 which needs a sustained performance over the length of the race. Many of these next gen games are going to require next gen speed and performance to maintain their graphical/framerate targets An ordinary vehicle only need what is required which is why in the city there is so much stop and go. 40 mph for 2 min then stop repeat. Sure I can go 85 mph on a highway ...enable cruise control but most cars are not being driven 85 mph sustained all day. Stock cars go 200 mph over the entire race. And really stupid argument using a regular car.
I did hear from a twitter thing.. The exact words were something like "cerny has downplayed everything" or "cerny is downplaying everything" try find it someone. Please.. Anyway the point is that it can sustain it's 10.3tf ineffinately. Which I'm not sure.. Don't want to say and be wrong, but I'm not sure if this is the case with all all consoles? When graphic card manufactures, be it pc or consoles, when they list a TF rating, It's peak output, ... (Best case cenario) Where as ps5 can sustain this number for hours.. The variable clocks are used, if cpu isn't needed as much in a particular bit of the game, gpu can take more power... And vice versa. So for instance... A fps game.. Can look amazing taking some cpu power, shifting it to gpu. But say a platform game, which has a high phisics load, can ask the gpu to slow down so gt he cpu can take power for the physics rendering. I'm no expert, + this certainly does not explain the Ratchet and Clank demo, which has both good looks, while loads of particle effects are flying all over..
For graphics cards the clock speed is determined by the temperature of the GPU. The expected frequency range is between the base and boost clock. This method means that ambient temps, airflow, and the cooling solution of the card have an impact on the performance. The upside is that you are getting the maximum performance at any given time. For consoles this approach wouldn't be ideal, because it would result in performance inconsistency. Instead, clock speeds are generally more conservative, but fixed. Console manufacturers try to design a cooling solution that can deal with a reasonably realistic worst case scenario (dusty console, hot summer day and so on). If the chip can't be cooled sufficiently on the highest fan speed the console shuts itself off to avoid overheating. If I understood Cerny's explanation correctly Sony identified a problem with the traditional method used on consoles. With fixed clocks, some situations consume a lot more power than others. More power consumption means more heat produced. Counterintuitively in many of those situations, the rendered geometry is actually rather simple. On PS4 this problem is expressed by an unnecessarily high fan speed in situations like map screens for God of War and Horizon or something like the loadout screen in MGSV. To avoid these problems Sony has adopted a variable frequency model, effectively setting a maximum power budget for the SoC. When a situation like the map screen in God of War happens on PS5, the Power control module examines the chip activity and lowers the clock speed to avoid producing unnecessary heat.The big advantages of that model is the elimination of power spikes compared to the traditional console model and accordingly higher predictability of the temperature variance. Unlike the graphics card temperature dependent model, this produces consistent performance across all PS5 consoles. I expect the fan control to still be based on the temperature of the SoC and if the PS5 were to overheat it would probably shut itself down just like the other consoles. Finally, SmartShift is a technology that allows an APU to deliver unused CPU power to the GPU and vice versa. I'm not sure if it's one way on the PS5, but it's safe to say that most of the time it'll be shifting unused CPU power to the GPU. It's important to note that this does not necessarily require a downclock of the CPU or GPU.
the PS5 can run at full 10.3tf as long as it needs to. It's not a short burst that it can sometimes run. The thing being done is explained quite well by sinspirit above, so I won't repeat it here, but basically, it allows devs to decide where to put the power they want to use. TF ratings are just a measure of the potential max number of floating point operations that a processor can perform per second. It isn't a measure on actual graphic rendering potential, as there are many things that will be required to do that. GPU's aren't the renderers, it's the software and processes themselves which do that, and the GPU just spits out data in a format the TV can understand.
Oh gamingdolt again!
Their headlines stick out like sore thumbs.
Says a developer that I've never heard of before.
I still believe a developer with experience making games than anyone else in this industry.
Ugh....I'm not saying that the PS5 won't be great. I was only pointing out that a comment from an unknown developer doesn't mean that much. I would say the same thing if it was a comment in favor of the XSX. Some of you guys get so tied to these console companies that you can't be objective anymore.
If only people had this attitude towards other devs who give praise to the other consoles
@bneals Gamingbolt likes to frame their headlines in a way that tends to exaggerate what the developer actually says, in a context that isn't even really related to the question that they asked the developer in the first place. I believe a lot of the developers that gamingbolt interviews aren't as clueless as many people would first consider them to be, but they also aren't always going on making such assertive declarative statements as gamingbolt tends to make it seem. Usually they're just talking about what they like about a system, or how they feel about a system, or in this case, saying why they're looking forward to working with a system, and that thing they felt would be a game changer. There is really nothing here that makes it seem like the dev had any motivation beyond giving a good faith answer, and more than half the time, that's usually the case with a gamingbolt interview. On rare occassions they do have devs that give some technical analysis on why they feel the way they do, and gamingbolt tends to twist that around into something bad, while interjecting their own misplaced "professional" analysis. I think gamingbolt feels they're knowledgeable on the level of Digital Foundary, who I believe also gets things wrong at times when they move beyond graphics analysis, but at least DF is willing to say when it's wrong, and does try to give facts when they aren't going full on fan boy.
Why does it matter if you heard of them or not? They're professionals. I would still like their opinion because you know.... It's their area of expertise?
Still a developer who knows more than us, back in April an obvious troll on twitter was stating that Sonys console was struggling and Xbox fanboys were all over it like gospel then developers were coming out praising PS5 on its SSD and ease of development and then suddenly Xbox fanboys: "they don't know what there on about"
TF are old story. PS5 has twice faster SSD and IO. End of story.
TF is also important parameter of GPU. But it only says theoretical amount of floating point operations per second. Thats all. It doesnt say anything about how system will perform as a whole. It can be used as a comparative attribute because typically when systems have same architecture (like PC or XO and PS4), it can give you idea how much fps/resolution can machine process. But its only one part of system. So if xsx can produce up to 12tf and ps5 10,28TF, it really doesnt mean too much. Maybe some progamer who accidentaly buys xsx instead of pc will realize, he will have some fps more then other guys on ps5. But for noncompetitive gamers around the world it doesnt make sense to think, that this advantage can mean better user experience.
Xbox pr bots really loves ignoring the fact that PS5 has a superior 100% faster SSD. not just 20% difference but almost twice faster. lol
3D sound with haptic feedback in a horror game Resident Evil Village, this game may aswell be exclusive to the PS5 because the haptic feedback & 3D Audio will take it to a whole other level
Don't forget vr
I already couldn't play RE VII in VR because of the immersion. I made it about two hours into that one. This one will be a solid no for me with even better 3D audio haha
Only way to play RE for me at least.
Plus VR mode.
I guess you could say that Sony is paying off the general development community, but that seems a bit silly.
Impossible, I was assured devs would HATE that feature since it couldn't do anything but make their job super hard.
Next gen comparations are beeing a blast and consoles are not even out, hahahaha.
Did i hear that a few developers saying that ps5 can pretty much reach its full potential 10.2tflops compared to series x which apparently wont reach its full potential?
Teraflops is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units - and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher. At 33 per cent higher frequency, rasterisation goes 33 per cent faster, processing the command buffer goes that much faster, the L1 and L2 caches have that much higher bandwidth, and so on
No you did not - but nice try lol
I just don’t understand how you can gauge if you’ll need 10.3tf or not. Are we not expecting devs to push as much as they can anymore? Ps5 will always have a drawback. You can’t design your game around the full utilization of 10.3tf if the CPU takes a dip or vice versa unless Sony plan on doing the “dynamic” BS once again this time the dynamic is all the way down to the silicon... Aiming for max potential on either side seems like a nightmare whereas lowballing with the base clocks would make development much easier and straightforward with the over clocks being a cushion. Only developers getting the max across the board with Ps5 took meticulous time making sure their engine works with the shifting internals. I’m sure the Ps5 can hit 10.3 most of the time but will developers actually target that or aim for a lower clock speed with the 10.3tf being a cushion in case they go over? Time will tell but come digital foundry we will see how gimped this console in real time. 17% lol oooook
You are looking at it wrong, if they build the system with enough cooling and power then it can run at full clocks always if needed. If a game doesn't require full clocks then the system can down clock.
Seems like that is only an advantage in terms of energy efficiency and heat, not raw performance which these articles seem to suggest.
Developers don't target TFLOP/s. No workload makes use of every Stream Processor (shader unit) in every clock cycle. It's simply impossible to get anywhere close to this efficiency in real world scenarios. Generally speaking the more compute units you have, the lower your efficiency will be, because it will require higher parallelism of the workload. Some people came up with terms like GCN FLOP/s and RDNA FLOP/s, because they want to rescue the metric as an indicator of real world performance. There is no such thing as RDNA FLOP/s and the theoretical compute capabilities of a GPU are not a reliable indicator of real world performance. Sony is using variable clocks to keep the power consumption in check. The goal is to eliminating power spikes. This allows them to get the operational clock much higher. It basically compresses the power variability. Fixed clocks on the other hand force the console manufacturer to have a large buffer between the typical power consumption and the power spikes in certain situations. Even if the spiking only occurs in certain game situations, the cooling solution has to be able to deal with that situation. A higher fixed clock would also mean higher spikes, which is why console manufacturers are usually forced to be fairly conservative in that regard. In other words: Having the ability to lower the frequency in certain situations and send unused power from the CPU to the GPU allows the PS5 to run at a higher clock most of the time.
@ Beyond When DF broke down the Series X about 4 months ago they stated that the GPU inside the X only exist inside the XsX. And they didn't know if a similar GPU will be released this year
How could an RDNA 2 GPU exist outside of XSX at that point when there were no other actual RDNA 2 GPUs even announced, not even PS5? No RDNA 2 GPUs outside of consoles have been revealed at all so what is your point?
That future GPU will copy what Microsoft did according to DF
"And they didn't know if a similar GPU will be released this year" "That future GPU will copy what Microsoft did according to DF" How the hell is DF saying they don't know if a similar GPU will be released this year but that a future GPU will copy what "MS did"? BTW....this is all AMD RDNA 2 tech so nothing you say makes any sense. sigh....just the post the link to the article and quote it.
@ Razzer So DF is lying???? But everything Sony says is the truth. You're on the internet, search and watch the videos yourself.
DF isn't lying. You are since you can't back up your own bullshit which isn't a surprise especially considering you just contradicted yourself and exposed your own lie.
"the “dynamic” BS once again" I'm amazed people still think this way after how many graphics awards Pro won with games like Horizon, Death Stranding, and God of War using efficiency techniques like checkerboard rendering despite being the weakest >1080p platform in terms of raw hardware power and with the praise DLSS 2.0 has been receiving. Games journalists have got people's minds twisted into thinking native 4K is always the best the way to go when it's idiotic to blow so much of your computational resources for a mild increase in clarity...maybe. Brute force rendering could work when we were talking resolution increases from 300K (480p) to 920K (720p) pixels or even 2.07 million (1080p)...but since then it quadrupled to 8.3 million (4K) and is quadrupling again to over 33 million pixels (8K). Remember games journalists' "mandatory install" nonsense with the PS3? They did a story about practically every PS3 game regarding if it had a mandatory install. That didn't age so well, did it? The PS5 is getting a 100% digital SKU, and pretty much every game is installed to some extent currently. Most people have a backwards, antiquated mindset thinking brute force rendering high resolutions is the ideal thing to do. I'm hopeful the marketing nonsense of "Now in full native 4K Ultra HD!!!!" doesn't get in the way of legitimate performance modes, which are going to be very possible now that the PS5 and XSX will have legitimate gaming PC level CPUs.