Zhiqing writes: "There's a boss fight at the end of the second act of The Last of Us Part II that will stick with players for a while. Let's talk about it."
"Ellie is the villain, and Abby’s the one who has every right to seek payback for all her friends who have died unfairly" Unfairly? Are you kidding me Ellie was totally in the right, Abby killed someone very dear to her, not just kill, torture the shit out of him taking pleasure in it while Ellie was forced to watch, then she got her face kicked in while some of them were talking about killing her and Tommy aswell. Those people chose to go with Abby, and they all participated without knowing the full story, even Abby's dad never answered the question when Marlene asked if he would do the same if it was his daughter, he's a hypocrite. Even if Joel let them kill Ellie, there's no evidence it would work 100% and if it did who is to say the Fireflies won't use it as leverage in the world, they'd be in complete control, hoarding it and dishing it out when they see fit. People need to remember the Fireflies aren't saints, I don't know why the sequel makes them out to be good people. So yeah lets stop trying to justify Abby when Ellie is not that bad, not in the slightest, same with Joel, he made questionable choices but didn't deserve it. I don't understand why people are suddenly shitting on them. The whole "stopping the cycle" thing is bullshit because any one of the hundreds of people Ellie / Abby have slaughtered could have a family member who will go seek revenge. Ellie should have just finished the job. https://i.redd.it/8p7kld2f9...
You didn’t feel bad for Abby at all during the game?
Not really, I felt more sorry for Alice ...The Dog
Hell no! As a matter of fact, I felt mocked by her the entire time I was forced to play as her.
When I saw Abby weaken and abused that's when I really really felt bad for her! That fight scene was disturbing and all she wanted to do is go to the Fireflies and help Lev. She did felt guilty about what she did, so she was going on a path of redemption. It was a good thing Ellie spared her life, which is her way of trying to forgive Abby like she did with Joel. The hater say it was all for nothing, but it still would have been nothing if Ellie killed Abby! Abby bite Ellie's 2 fingers off so she can't play the guitar. No it wasn't all for nothing, she overcome her obession for revenge. Ellie still lives as the cure. The Haters say that doesn't make sense, but that is no different than a drug addict or a war veteran on PTSD. It was the obsession to keep going. You can clearly see that with Tommy who lost an eye, barely can walk, and his wife left him all because of obsession to keep on going.
If you can't empathize with Abby, at all, then you probably don't have the full context and haven't played the game. What you've said shows a complete lack of understanding, and if you have played the game, comprehension. The people who were in Abby's group were biased and preferential toward Abby's cause of killing the man who murdered her father? How could they do such a thing? Why would they hold such a bias? There's also the side matter of Abby's murdered father being a well-intentioned doctor in search of a cure. Ellie in the end comes off as worse than Abby to me, and to probably most people who have played the game. Even after as much as admitting that she understood why Abby killed Joel, she allowed herself to succumb to rage. She had so much, and senselessly lost it. Though, I am glad that she also wound up saving Abby even though she came to kill her. I loved how it all played out.
@Maga You can't possibly know that; that first portion is all assumed. Why did Abby's 'friends' take Abby's side? Well first of all, they're her friends. Mel described a good relationship with Abby's father, who told Mel that she was her best medical student. Joel killed Abby's father and Mel's friend, and they shouldn't be mad over their loss? How/why is Ellie's revenge due to her loss justified and Abby and Friend's not justified? I don't know much about Abby's father aside from what I was shown, but I didn't see a psychopath, even if he was wrong, which we're not sure of. In the context of the game's world, these characters can be just and unjust. Abby and Ellie both speak to that, though I feel Abby can let go more easily, and not undoing herself in the process as Ellie has done.
"If you can't empathize with Abby, at all, then you probably don't have the full context and haven't played the game." Or, maybe Neil Druckman did a terrible job writing the character. Saying: "yOu JuST dOn'T UnDAStand" is not a valid arugment.
@Xabi But, I haven't been as dismissive as that. Why are you lumping me into some group I'm not a part of?
"But, I haven't been as dismissive as that." Ugh...yes you have. "If you can't empathize with Abby, at all, then you probably don't have the full context and haven't played the game." According to you if I can't empathize with Abby at all (which I don't) I am incapable of understanding context and or I haven't played the game. You are complaining about being lumped in a group but look over your comment before you decide to play victim.
@Xabi If you're incapable of empathizing with Abby, AT ALL, and her situation AT ALL, and understanding why she would kill her father's killer AT ALL, then I truly believe you don't have the context, or haven't played the game. Truly. That's how I feel. If there's nothing about Abby's cause that you can say, "I get why she'd want to do that" then I maintain my position.
@SyntheticForm "then I truly believe you don't have the context, or haven't played the game. Truly. That's how I feel." Your feelings reside in a vacuum, but great job doubling down on your hypocrisy. I don't sympathize with characters born out of retcons. Its terrible story telling and no amount of emotionally manipulation from Neil Druckmans garbage narrative is going to change that.
I agree, after finishing the game I felt Ellie was more in the wrong than Abby. Killing Joel the way she did may have been wrong but Ellie went well beyond an eye for an eye in killing Owen and Mel.
@Xabi and anyone else who disagreed, I pose the following question, because at this point it demands posing: If I killed a member of your immediate family, would you at least be justified in disliking me - forget killing me. But, would you be justified in disliking me as someone who murdered your mother or father, or is that totally OK with you? As of right now, based replies in the context of this story, I'm going to assume that you'd be fine with it, because that's the only choice you've left me, logically.
@SyntheticForm. I think a big point in how much people care for Abby, is how succesful ND has been with making players care for her by the end of the game. Some get more invested in her, and are willing to be forgetful, others like myself might care a bit, but not nearly as much as ND intended. And that's where you get the disconnect. Nothing to do with understanding the story, just personal involvement with the character.
"Abby killed someone very dear to her..." Are you forgetting that Joel killed her father? Someone who was just about to develop a vaccine for a *cure*. "... torture the shit out of him taking pleasure in it while Ellie was forced to watch" I don't think you followed. She wasn't forced to watch any of the torture. "... even Abby's dad never answered the question when Marlene asked if he would do the same..." ... except Abby literally told him she would want him to do the same if it was her. "Fireflies ... I don't know why the sequel makes them out to be good people" It doesn't. Another point you've missed. "... he made questionable choices but didn't deserve it" speak for yourself. "I don't understand why people are suddenly shitting on them." You must forget the debates that happened after the last game about whether his decision was the right one. I seem to recall a lot of people exclaiming how selfish it was of him to take her life actually meaning something away from her. "Ellie should have just finished the job." And another point you've missed. If you followed, you'd know why she didn't ultimately didn't go through with it. Even imaginary Joel in the very first trailer asks her if she really wants to go through with it: https://youtu.be/qPNiIeKMHy...
Most of those that didn't like the story didn't even play the game, they're frauds.
”Ellie was totally in the right, Abby killed someone very dear to her," Who's the hypocrite? You agree with Ellies motivations but dismiss Abby's motivations when they're both the same. These two women are basically on the same path just at different stages. You gloss over the fact that Joel slaughtered a base tortured people and doomed humanity just because you like him. I never once cared about Abby more than I did Ellie but I completely understand her motivation and Joel had it coming from Abby's point of view he deserve to die and from hundreds of others as well. You've got no objectivity
”Those people chose to go with Abby, and they all participated without knowing the full story.” Same with Ellie. She decided to pursue mindless revenge against Abby and her group without even trying to find out the reason why they did it and just stumbled upon an answer when she finally encountered Nora at the hospital. I don’t think she even knew about Abby’s father dying to Joel’s hands. By the end of the game, Ellie has done far worse things than Abby ever did. She’s so single-mindlessly obsessed with revenge that she abandoned her family and still went after Abby even after being spared twice. Choosing not to kill Abby is the smartest decision she’s made in the game.
I'm sorry that's a terrible take 😂😂 The game puts you in abby's shoes for a reason every night she dreams about the death of her father and you mean to tell me her revenge wasn't justified? Joel screwed humanity and killed innocent doctors who were just trying to save the world and your ok with that? Naughty dog made you guys fall so in love with Joel that you overlook everything he's ever done. Ellie risk the lives of her friends to go on a revenge quest that was never justifiable hell when Dina and Jesse asked questions on why Abby would of wanted to kill Joel ellie continues to lie to them and saying it doesn't matter, when in reality if she told them why they would abandon her BS quest for revenge. I guarantee if the people of Jackson knew what Joel did they would of already killed him. Abby was never in the wrong and yes I hated her too at the start but I actually sat down and thought about everything, hell she just saw her friends murdered and still let ellie go I can't stay mad at Abby. At the end of the game I was screaming at ellie to please for the love of God just let it gooooooo.
"..but I actually sat down and thought about everything.." And they didn't...they take one look at that scene and just threw the controller at the screen and started hating it. And even when they continued they just want nothing but to kill abby and when they didn't get that.."game is trash" "story is trashed" Take a look at Foxtrot for eg. He even had to link us that fanmade comic which shows he just wanted to kill abby at no cost and then saying Ellie had every right. But Abby doesnt?
@outsider1624 Exactly I swear last of us 2 should be a case study in college of how blinded people become when they like a character.
They both deserved it. Just as you are saying that people should stop trying to minimize Abby’s actions, you should stop doing the same for Ellie. The biggest difference between the 2 would be that Abby again stopped herself from killing Ellie even after she had killed all her friend (which included torturing Nora in case you didnt remember). And even then she stopped mostly because Lev helped her stop, and also Ellie was able to do the same at the end And thats basically the whole point, if you feel the actions of either of them were justified, then the actions of the other one also are and since both decided to go on their mindless revenge journey, both lost practically everything
"So yeah lets stop trying to justify Abby when Ellie is not that bad, not in the slightest, same with Joel, he made questionable choices but didn't deserve it. I don't understand why people are suddenly shitting on them." He may have quite literally doomed the human race by taking ellie. But what makes him evil incarnate ( to others) is he kills the doctors too.
Abby took pleasure in it? No she didn’t watch the voice actors interview. Or, I don’t know Pay attention to the game! She felt extreme remorse for killing joel, and horrible Abbys father understood it was a horrible thing but he was willing to do it for mankind. Joel even states in part 2 “they were actually going to make a cure.” Everyone assuming it wasn’t a done deal are making assumptions. The idea was that that it was going to work. Everyone ellie killed in part 2 was in self defense besides Nora. The gameplay isn’t about stopping the cycle of violence anyways. It’s about obsession, the stages of grief and acceptance, empathy, and mostly the amazing and horrible things we will do for love.
I don't see any villain or hero in this game. They were characters who didnt asked for any of it to happen what happened. That comic book. Looks like Ellie turned evil. So you're okay with having that version. Cool. Guess for you all you want is revenge and kill abby. Maybe ND should have given an option to give you some pleasure in killing them eh? For me by the end of the game i forgave i actually felt sad for abby and forgave her. As for Ellie, im glad she redeemed herself. She learnt to forgave.
Yea, I would say both Abby and Ellie had equal reason to want each other dead. And Joel and the Fireflies holds plenty blame as well. Abby tortured Ellie's father figure to death. The man who also by the way, SACRIFICED THE WORLD FOR HER! Sure, Ellie/Joel relationship was Rocky at that point. Yet anyone with family knows you can feel Hate and Deep love at the same time. It didn't help that Ellie never got real closure will Joel, an aspect that often haunts tragedy survivors. On the other hand....Joel fucking doomed the world for the foreseeable future in his selfishness. Abby's dad was the best researcher/scientist in the known world. The only ones that we know of trying to end the apocalypse. He was confident he could make that cure. Sure, we could say that there is no 100% assurance of that, true. But seeing the world the way it is...was it not worth the try? In Abby and the WLFs minds, Joel was basically the Antichrist. He killed just about everyone of importance in that hospital, and the MOST important people were there (Marlene, Doctors). WLF put every death that came after that point on what Joel did. Although I empathize greatly with what Joel did, WLF wasn't wrong to hate him for it. Especially in Abby's case. Something of note that I don't see really brought up. The war between the Seraphites and WLF is pretty much a direct translation of the cycle of revenge and hate. At the time of us being introduced to them they are BOTH monsters. Disemboweling and/or torturing enemies. Neither started off that way. We don't know who drew first blood but they tried being at peace. The treaty was broken and their conflict escalated. Isaac killed the Seraphite leader, and since then they deified her....and used it as an excuse for horrors. This emulates Joel's death, how it affects Ellie. Food for thought.
Bro give it a rest you’re EVERYWHERE bashing the game. They already won GOTY
Well i felt more emotion for Abby than Ellie. and if i were in her shoes i would of done the exact same.
Yeah i understand the motivations for both of the characters and at the final fight, I really didn't want to press the square button.
The thing I love the most about this game is how it makes the player feel the same emotions of the controlled character. In the Nora scene, I felt rage. In the final scene, I felt sorry. And it was exactly the point, I don't think Ellie seriously wanted to hurt her after all that time... she just needed to do it. Like us.
Some of you are missing the point, there is no true villain or hero in this game. They all do bad things at different times, for different reasons, under different circumstances, depending all on the perspective. This game just tried to provide it all at once. Heck, even at some point they made the Scars appear like ruthless savages, but then showed they had a village with children and are not all "bad" ie: Lev and Yara.
It proves that nothing is as good or bad as they may seem. Joel is presented as a loving father, but we find out through both games that he has done some messed up things. Others are presented as bad people, but we learn that even they have families, friends, and responsibilities, just as out protagonists do. There's no good and evil, not black and white, just survivors covered in gray.
Damn, this story was good as fuck.
The Last of Us 2 is epic! Seriously good story and game play. I'm glad I ignored the go woke, get broke toxic campaign. During the entire game I was gripped. At first i took Ellies side... but Abby won me over. This is a 10/10 game. I'm stoked. @Naughtydog - More Abby please! She kicked ass 😃
Honestly, by the end of the game, i felt more sympathetic to Abby than i did to Ellie having seen both sides of the story. These are two sides the two characters don't see of each other, so they wouldn't understand the other's troubles. I found it a really engaging story that fit the world they are in. I think the game could have been trimmed in places and i also think it would have been better to chop and change back and forth between Ellie and Abby instead of a long stint with each, but it was still a brilliant game for me.
I agree, after completing the game Abby's story was more interesting and showed that she had a lot more humanity than Ellie did in the end.
We need a DLC.. the quality was so good that playing other games right now feels like a step back. I need ghost of tsushima right now. On the other hand. The ending of tlou2 was perfect. I just wish joel didnt die😭. Especially not after the final scene with Ellie. I wish there was a way to save him. Like Meryl in MGS1.
So if you think the story is shite, you either didn’t play it or didn’t understand it. That is the biggest cop out ever, can excuse every bad story in the history of storytelling, Last Jedi has a great story, critics mostly loved the movie,you just didn’t watch it if you disagree. That argument is no different.
@ilikestuff My guy, you already condemned the story long before the game was released. I didn't expect any different from you lmao. But belive me we're not lying to ourselves when we say the story is better than the 1st it's just our opinion.
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