Mahler Says Third-Party to Develop for Lowest Common Denominator, PS5 SSD Likely First-Party Only

Thomas via Resetera: "I would be shocked if most third party developers would not just develop their games for the lowest common denominator. I mean, there's literally 0 chance that levels will get changed just because the PS5 can load them faster, simply because it's way too expensive and work intensive to do that.

The super fast PS5 SSD is nice for first party, but it won't make any economical sense to heavily adjust your games to suit one particular platform. On PCs and the Xbox, you'll have to work with what's there. So it's 2 platforms against 1. The scenario pointed out in the OP is highly unlikely."

[mrsolidsteel20]

Oh boy.......

Well it seems the narrative or should I say narratives that are trying to be created is:

PS5’s SSD is just for faster loading screens

PS5’s SSD are just for first party developers

Now, PS5’s SSD are too expensive for third party developers.

I’m not sure why exclusive developer will comment on this, but it’s not surprising.

[Eonjay]

Everything involving an SSD will be faster on PS5. How exactly would a dev make the drive slower to satisfy the slower Xbox. This is what I want to know.

[Minute Man 721]

The game will load faster but once we start playing we won't be able to tell

[zimm]

Loading screens. But it's more a questions for Nintendo consoles and older PC's or cheap SSD.

[rainslacker]

They wouldnt make the drive slower, they'd just design the game on the back end using what's been done for 40+ years now, which is basically loading in the bulk of the game scene to run off memory, with predictiveoading of new assets for upcoming parts of the game.

Ps5 can still do this, it's just not considered a best practice or suggested by Sony. It doesnt mean that some of these features couldn't be used for optimization though, which could bring it's own benefits

[Stanjara]

Here is Mass Effect example. Your character on PS5 just enters the ship... you don't have loading... it's beautiful.
Xbox has to load the inside of the ship. So developer is thinking: Elevator! A small travel and door opening till it loads.
Ps5 game ends up with elevators because the game was multiplat.
Thats how they slow down PS5 ssd.

[starchild]

No, the fact they are not making a PS5 game doesn't mean that they don't understand the technology or how the industry works. I have been saying the same thing. Multiplatform developers will not radically redesign their games for one platform. We've already seen for years that they will not do this.

The PS5's SSD speed will probably be used for faster load times and faster asset streaming while in game, but some of the more esoteric ways that have been discussed will almost certainly not be used in multiplatform games if PC and Xbox Series X don't have the same capability.

[ChristopherJack]

The thing, the XSX SSD is no slouch either, yes the PS5's is better & the I/O improvements has also been widely championed, doesn't mean the XSX won't see the majority of the same potential in-game benefits too, rather it'll be handled slightly differently.

With the superior CPU, GPU & RAM, there'll be other ways more traditional ways to reach the desired results, the biggest difference for the end-user(us) will be loading times, but the loading times with a 3.5GB/s SSD will already be mostly non-existent. Neither are going to require much prerendering which will be the biggest difference this gen, the PS5 even less so. That said, RAM is also important when it comes to rendering & the XSX does have better chips so I'm curious over how much of an advantage the PS5 will have there.

Outside of load times & rendering, multiplat games will almost definitely look & run(FPS/resolution/textures, etc) a little better on average with the XSX. Exclusives will always be subjective, I personally vastly prefer Sony's single-player games but I do enjoy things like Halo3/Reach & SoD2 yet those are playable/will be on PC but even a top end $3k PC may not have the same loading & rendering advantages that even the XSX contains for years to come. Individual components will improve to the point where it can brute forced but at the moment, it's too expensive & too fragmented to compete in that area..

At the end of the day, I don't why so many are acting as if the XSX has a 5400RPM HDD. Well, I do, fanboyism, but why do people insist on behaving in such a way is my real question- most of the time it's answered by deflecting it onto another group of fanboys, as if somehow one is worst than the other: You all come off as petty children arguing which sports team is better, preferences are fine but I don't see why conversations can't be civil & factual, instead everyone takes everything personally, as if they were given birth by the very product they defend.

[Spicyram]

There's also an underlying concession over here that Ps5 is the better performing console.

[Obscure_Observer]

“The super-fast PS5 SSD is nice for first party, but it won't make any economical sense to heavily adjust your games to suit one particular platform. On PCs and the Xbox, you'll have to work with what's there. So it's 2 platforms against 1."

Interesting. Looks like third party devs will have to choose the PS5 over PC and Xbox if they want to fully take advantage of PS5´s ultra fast SSD.

[IRetrouk]

That's just no true, cerny already explained this.

"Behind the scenes, the SSD's dedicated Kraken compression block, DMA controller, coherency engines and I/O co-processors ensure that developers can easily tap into the speed of the SSD without requiring bespoke code to get the best out of the solid-state solution. A significant silicon investment in the flash controller ensures top performance: the developer simply needs to use the new API. It's a great example of a piece of technology that should deliver instant benefits, and won't require extensive developer buy-in to utilise it."

https://www.eurogamer.net/a...

[Unspoken]

My gosh man, that's the same rhetoric used by every proprietary software/hardware developer used since the beginning any development.

It was on the internet, it must be true.

[starchild]

@IRetrouk
So do you really believe that multiplatform developers are going to fundamentally change the design of their games to take advantage of just one platform? They've never done this in the past. Do you really believe that multiplatform games are going to look and run better on PS5 than PC and Xbox Series X? If so I'll bet you right now that you're wrong.

[crazyCoconuts]

Only developers can tell us how modular they can make this asset streaming feature (that they baked into Unreal 5). Like - if you have the best textures in memory already (Uber video card) you use it. If you have fast IO you can stream the best textures from disk. If you don't, you employ the traditional LOD with low quality textures until you get closer and then load the high quality ones. Maybe if the tools are reasonable it won't be terribly difficult to add the IO streaming option into games and it will manifest itself as "better graphics". It should also push that minimum spec on the PC over time to either have more memory on the graphics card or a faster IO system.

[StormSnooper]

Carney already explained this. The dev won’t have to do anything. They simply will be able to create more and not worry about whether it will be able to fit it.

Perhaps they will make the game for both consoles and then go back to add more assets to the PS5 with no worries. I’m no dev, but it seems like it’s a matter of the dev wanting to go the extra mile for the PS5 to really shine.

[badz149]

The PS4 has proven that it can sell more software. there are just a handful of multiplats from this gen that have sold more on PC and Xbone combined compared to the PS4. and if you exclude CoD, FIFA and GTAV, the only other game that is competing with PS4 exclusives in sales is...RDR2 and maybe FO4? TW3 and FO4 sold more on PC, that's a given and not even Battlefield games are selling in the same ballpark as PS4 exclusives now and that's CRAZY! TLoU Remaster, UC4, Spider-man and GoW all sold gangbusters and Ubisoft even constantly reporting they are making more money on PS4 this gen.

so...I don't know why is it illogical for this guy that devs would want to cater to the PS5 next gen compared to XSX or even PC.

[Obscure_Observer]

"I don't know why is it illogical for this guy that devs would want to cater to the PS5 next gen compared to XSX or even PC."

Maybe because both PC and Series X´s architecture are closer while with the PS5 Sony is back to their exotic ways. That goes without mention that both PC and SX are more powerful.

[Sunny_D]

@obscure

You mean AMD zen 2 and RDNA? The same/similar type that’s inside the Xbox? You don’t know what you seem to be talking about do you?

[rainslacker]

@Obscure

I think you're mistaking API's with hardware. Consoles use x86 hardware just like PC, and PC can use a few different rendering API's, as now they'll probably have 2 different GPU core designs.

The XSX is about as much like a PC as the PS5 is otherwise. If the dev uses DirectX, then yeah, the port to PC, or vice versa, would be more fluid, but PC optimization is much different than console optimization. You can't just hit the "Build to PC" function, and expect it to run the Xbox specific code. Unless of course you want to gimp all that tech in the XSX even further by using the higher level API's that exist on PC....thus rendering all that extra power xbox fans love to gloat about moot.

If it was that easy, I wouldn't have the job I have, and MS probably would have pushed out Sony from the market already. BTW, my job is to make tool that port DirectX code between PC, Xbox, and other systems, which includes PS and even Switch, among other things. The fact there is a healthy sub-industry of tool makers who make these sort of things is enough to say that it's not as simple as you posit. Not that it's particularly hard to make games for multiple systems, just that the advantage you suggest, doesn't actually exist in the way you suggest it.

[CaptainHenry916]

WRONG AGAIN. 😁

[I_am_Batman]

I agree, but that's generally true for any significant difference in any consoles architechture. That's one of the main reasons, why exclusive games often end up setting the bar in terms of technological achievements. Multiplats will need to run on the lowest common denominator which in case of the SSD will be the PC for a while.

It's arguable whether it was worth it to go with the Cell for the PS3 for example. While it unlocked a lot of potential for exclusive titles and prolonged the PS3s life cycle, it also made the process of porting multiplatform games much more complicated.

Unlike the PS3's Cell processor, the I/O architecture of the PS5 won't stand in the way of multiplatform developers. It's simply an upside for exclusives without the downside for multiplats.

[SamPao]

not true. the ssd and the architecture in the ps5 will do so automatically sooooo
this developer just tries to downplay it

[I_am_Batman]

You just missed his point. The implementation is on a system level, meaning it won't require low-level optimization to get full access to the I/O speeds. It doesn't change the fact that a game that is build from the ground up to utilize these speeds can't be simply ported to the PC or Series X.

It should be pretty obvious that a game that relies on these speeds to work, won't work on one tenth or even half the speed without some fairly extreme compromises requirering a lot of work to be redone. Now given that is true get yourself in the mindset of a multiplatform dev, are you really going to build your vision on the PS5 and then compromise your other ports by completely reworking your rendering pipeline for each different version? Or are you going to do the best job you can for the lowest common denominator and potentially make some slight optimizations for the other versions?

It's always the latter, which is why high end hardware on PC is never truly utilized or why cross gen games are never as impressive as next-gen only games. It's not a question of what the devs can or can't do. It's simply what makes the most sense given that resources are limited.

With that being said, if you have a very scalable engine which was made with all platforms in mind you might be able to stream in higher quality assets on PS5 (This could be the case with an engine like UE5 for example).

[crazyCoconuts]

Won't stand in the way, and perhaps could still be incorporated into multiplats, we'll see. Not for different level designs, but potentially to make the console act like it has more memory than it does and load some higher quality textures.
Even if traditional LOD is used, faster IO can reduce the perception of pop in.
If nothing else, everything should load faster from disk getting you to the game faster and less time waiting for the next level.

[I_am_Batman]

For sure. I wouldn't be surprised to see some differences in asset quality in some games. UE5 utilizing Nanite will probably show that effect due to basically offering unlimited LOD. I just think if your game has to run on SATA SSDs that both the Series X and PS5 will be sufficiently fast, that pop-ins and loading times shouldn't be much of a factor.

My initial comment was meant to stress the fact that multiplatform devs won't be in a position to utilize the PS5s unique advantages to build a game that relies on those speeds to work.

[SamPao]

But you are saying that its only an upside for exclusives, which is simply not true. Its an upside for ALL developers, because its implemented on a system level. thats what I am saying.

[I_am_Batman]

You have to read my comment in the context of what Thomas is saying for it to make sense. I'm talking about 'upsides' in relation to changing the level design and heavily altering parts of the world on one console vs. the other.

That's what Thomas was responding too and he's absolutely right about what he is saying.

Of course there will be other more subtle upsides even in multiplatform games, but that's besides the point when we're talking about fundamentally different approaches to level- and worlddesign for different versions of the same game.

[StormSnooper]

@I am Batman
I believe you are assuming that the dev will not be able to make the game simultaneously for the two systems (creating a base that works for both) and then go back and add more assets to the more capable PS5.

Im sure Sony’s first party will be pushing the boundaries yet again, but I think 3rd party devs can also use the SSD to push their games on PS5.

[I_am_Batman]

'Creating a base that works on both' is a lowest common denominator approach. Scaling up from that common point won't fundamentally change the game.

[StormSnooper]

Sure, but now we are talking degrees. There is no doubt that 1st party will benefit the most, but to say that multiplats wont benefit from PS5 SSD is also incorrect.

All the dev will need to figure out is where the baseline is, then they can add to the PS5 version from there on, and based on what we’ve been told, it wouldn’t take a significant effort from the dev to implement the benefits of this new SSD as it’s simply a matter of creating the assets with next to zero (I paraphrase) worries about how to fit it in the game.

[I_am_Batman]

It's not a matter of degrees. This is about two fundamentally different approaches.

1. Creating the game for the PS5 and using the I/O bandwidth as a requirement for your game design, then porting it down to less capable systems requiring a lot of additional resources, because you now have scrap a lot of the work you've already done and redo it to work on less capable systems. This could be changing the layout of the level design or adding loading buffer zones like elevators, tunnels or gaps that artificially slow you down.

2. Developing for the lowest common denominator and then scaling up from there. This is easy, because multiplatform engines are quite scalable by design. Additional resources can be utilized, but they won't impact the common baseline.

The first scenario is not how multiplatform development usually works and it's not likely to change, because it would be an inefficient way to allocate the limited budget.

[RazzerRedux]

Hmmmm, so that means XSX first party won't be able to take full advantage of its Velocity Architecture as all those games will be on PC.

On the PS5 side, first party games (as well as any third party exclusives) will be able to take full advantage of the new hardware and can be designed with that in mind.

Sony's first party is getting more and more exciting the more I hear Microsoft devs talk about it. LOL

[Obscure_Observer]

"Hmmmm, so that means XSX first party won't be able to take full advantage of its Velocity Architecture as all those games will be on PC."

Source?

"On the PS5 side, first party games will be able to take full advantage of the new hardware and can be designed with that in mind."

Based off your first comment while assuming things (like you), if Sony has no plans to release future Playstation games on PC, yes, you´re right.

[RazzerRedux]

"Source?"

Speculation based on what the Ori dev is saying. Microsoft hasn't backed off on their commitment to games on PC and I see no reason for that to change. The only caveat I can think of is they could make SSD a requirement on PC, but very few PC gamers are at PCI 4.0 SSD and none have hardware compression so that seems unlikely at this point. As we stand right now, I don't see how Xbox games can be designed outside of traditional means as PC HDD is the "lower common denominator".

"Based off your first comment while assuming things (like you), if Sony has no plans to release future Playstation games on PC, yes, you´re right."

Same caveat applies to that scenario. Any plans for PS games on PC would require PC to catch up to the point that enough PCs meet the requirements that make any ports worth the investment. On the other hand, PS Now could take advantage of this right away once PS5 hardware is in place at Azure data centers. Same for XSX and Project xCloud.

[IRetrouk]

Razzer cerny already covered this, third partys will be able to take advantage of ps5s ssd, this is just more downplay.

"Behind the scenes, the SSD's dedicated Kraken compression block, DMA controller, coherency engines and I/O co-processors ensure that developers can easily tap into the speed of the SSD without requiring bespoke code to get the best out of the solid-state solution. A significant silicon investment in the flash controller ensures top performance: the developer simply needs to use the new API. It's a great example of a piece of technology that should deliver instant benefits, and won't require extensive developer buy-in to utilise it."

https://www.eurogamer.net/a...

[RazzerRedux]

IRetrouk

I don't think level design is what Cerny is referring to though. Devs can take advantage of the speed, but in the past devs have had to make design choices (such as elevators) to accommodate the slow loading from HDD. PS5 SSD architecture removes these limitations and frees up design capabilities. But XSX and third parties are still bound by PC HDD. The Ori dev is saying that is going to force those devs to make conventional design choices. That's my understanding anyway.

[IRetrouk]

I assumed they ment all advantages to be honest, but I can see what you mean, level design etc will be held back by hdds that's true enough, I guess we will just have to rely on sonys devs and exclusive 3rd partys to really change game design.

[Obscure_Observer]

@RazzerRedux

"Speculation based on what the Ori dev is saying."

Except he didn´t mentioned Velocity at all.

"As we stand right now, I don't see how Xbox games can be designed outside of traditional means as PC HDD is the "lower common denominator"

Look no further than Microsoft Flight Simulator and tell me again how SX´s first party games will be bound or tied to PC´s HDD.

"Sony's first party is getting more and more exciting the more I hear Microsoft devs talk about it. LOL"

Good, because after tomorrow, I´m really looking forward for their games to really impress me on the same or even higher level than Hellblade II and Flight Simulator did. Not sure how a 1080p 30fps presentation is supposed to show games running on actual PS5 hardware, so I´m just gonna wait for Sony to upload the high resolution videos after the show, then wait to see what DF has to say about it in a much more detailed analysis.

[RazzerRedux]

"Except he didn´t mentioned Velocity at all."

Which is why I am "speculating". But it follows that if devs have to design for the "lowest common denominator" when it comes to storage architectures then Xbox first party have to design for PC HDD.

"Look no further than Microsoft Flight Simulator and tell me again how SX´s first party games will be bound or tied to PC´s HDD."

The Ori dev is talking about "level design" so FS doesn't apply.

"Good, because after tomorrow, I´m really looking forward for their games to really impress me on the same or even higher level than Hellblade II and Flight Simulator did. Not sure how a 1080p 30fps presentation is supposed to show games running on actual PS5 hardware, so I´m just gonna wait for Sony to upload the high resolution videos after the show, then wait to see what DF has to say about it in a much more detailed analysis."

lol.....yeah, because DF telling you what your eyes can't see on their own is always important. Kind of like that UE5 PS5 demo:

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[starchild]

That's a very slanted way to look at it, but sure. Of course, it's also true that PCs and Xbox Series X will have advantages in ray tracing and pure rasterisation that won't be matched by the PS5's hardware. Different games will have different visual advantages. Very exciting times ahead indeed.

[RazzerRedux]

lol....you want to talk about slanted? We are discussing the Ori's devs statements on how SSD will/won't impact level designs for different systems. But you?

"Quick, talk about GPU!"

Slanted, indeed.

[EmperorDalek]

People are still trying to argue the PS5 is more powerful? So much denial, it's ridiculous.

[xer0]

Even a highend PC doesn't have the custom silicon or software (DirectX/Windows) to pull of what PS5 is capable of.
1.8TFLOP advantage isn't going to cut it in the next generation.

It'll be 2 years until PC catches up to what the PS5 is capable of.

In the meantime, the Xbox Series X will be the lowest common denominator.

[alb1899]

1.8 Is the best scenario, it is almost 3 terraflops of advantage in the worst scenario. But let's wait and see.

[xer0]

@darrin2 - it's 10.28TFLOP... but don't worry the I/O and SSD brings the performance way above the Xbox Series X, which is hobbled by game compatibility for Xbox One S and Windows bloatware.

https://www.ign.com/article...

[Spicyram]

Those who think 1.72 teraflops being the defining difference between ps5 and series X are unfortunately in for a MASSIVE rude awakening.

[KilluaX3]

You console fanboys are ridiculous. PC can always do more than a console, that's just a fact.

[Imalwaysright]

And what exactly is the PS5 capable of? What exactly are we talking about here? What will the PS5 be able to do that PCs won't?

[starchild]

And yet, I'll bet you my house that the PC will still offer the best visuals and performance in multiplatform games.

If you want to ignore all the areas where the PC has the advantage and pretend that SSD speeds are suddenly all that matter, then sure, go for it. But you'll be wrong.

[Spicyram]

Yes agreed, it's ridiculous because it's clear Ps5 will be able to do things series x and PC's cant, yet people act as if series X will be the leading platform setting the benchmark for next gen. News flash: It's going to be the ps5 with its vastly superior custom ssd.

[KilluaX3]

Things like 2 second faster loading times? PC is better than consoles and can do things much better than your toybox. SSD differences are so miniscule that it's irrelevant. And PC is getting better SSDs at the end of this year anyway.

[xer0]

@darrin2 - ☝️

[jairusmonillas]

Reassurance for the weak ssd/io of xbox series x article.

[THC CELL]

This may also promote Sony more exclusives

[tontontam0]

Nice to know, I guess xsx/pc exclusive games will be developed for the least common denominator, there are a lot of pc out there that are significantly weaker than the upcoming next gen consoles.

And no these weak pc owners will not upgrade for quite a while, they've just bought these weak systems this year.

[KilluaX3]

Anyone buying a PC right now is getting better hardware than next gen consoles unless they are buying 300 dollar budget builds. You ignorant console fanboy.

[ocelot07]

I'm a PC owners and ill be upgrading my 1080ti later in the year. I am just waiting on what the Nvidia 3000 series is going to be like and AMD's offering. But are you telling me if I was to go and build a system lets say with a GTX 2060 Super or a 5700XT ill have a better hardware than a PS4 or a PS5?

Or are you just saying anyone who builds a PC now is guaranteed to be using a GTX 2080ti? Because they are not. Look at the recent steam hardware chart. 11% of users are using a 3 year old GTX 1060 followed by 8% using 1050ti followed by 5% using a GTX 1050 followed by 4% using a 1070.

[TKCMuzzer]

Amazingly you come across as an ignorant PC elitist at the same time as insulting this guy.

[tontontam0]

Lol ignorant pc gamer wannabe, You probably own a weakshit hardware. a 5600 xt gpu costs more than $300 and that card is significantly weaker than ps5 and the series x.

I have noticed people upgrading their pcs to 1660 ti or 5600xt this year, these are mid range cards.

[Giblet_Head]

Built my system last year. It already runs circles around either console's specs.
Two 2080tis in NVlink. Living that 4k 60/150FPS life.
https://i.imgur.com/e0wkrAG...

[cell989]

Yeah but how much did you spend? Also as expensive as it is, you’ll have to upgrade soon because your pc is using old architecture, dope graphics cards yes, but old architecture non the less

[Giblet_Head]

@cell989 None of this architecture is 'old'. I have one of the best motherboards out right now,Gigabyte Z390 AORUS MASTER, an i9-9900k, 32GB of 3600mhz ram, 2TB M.2 with 4TB of additional SSD space I won't have to upgrade for at least ten years with two 2080tis in NVLink, especially with Vulkan API gaining more traction. My system isn't even overclocked yet. And I'd only upgrade because I feel like at that point. I spent $4,000 on my system. I don't only game on this by the way, I'm a vfx artist and use this horse power for rendering besides just gaming. It's a production tool for work too.

[Fishy Fingers]

We've got through this gen with all its incredible games with a read/write speed of 110mb/s. Suddenly anything less the 9gb/s is going to be an issue?

I'm sure first party will take full advantage of their respectable consoles strengths. Thats their job.

But I'm also pretty sure the "lowest common denominator" here, be that Xbox or a budget PC nvme, at a their "mere" 30+ times the speed they're used to isnt going to cause many devs any headaches.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

You can say that about TFLOPS, ray tracing, CPU etc. We've gone through this entire gen with great games without ray tracing and single digit TFLOPS, so any significant upgrades in those departments should be seen as satisfactory. Yet that doesn't stop people from saying one is superior or inferior than the other or crying about variable clocks as if it would give developers headaches.

[Fishy Fingers]

That's kind of my point.

Next gen we've got 2x GPU performance (with better architecture) and 2x the CPU performance (crude clock comparison and because they have far better architecture here) pretty sure 35x read/write will be more than adequate for most developers. I can only see that not being true in edge cases (ie when its built specifically for it - exclusives, the point of the article).

"Yet that doesn't stop people from saying one is superior or inferior" - not really concerned with the 'he said, she said' stuff. That's been the console fanboy way since there were consoles.

[rainslacker]

Not an issue....just not achieving something new for a new gen.

I'm sure the games next gen will look great regardless of SSD. But, SSD offers up the potential to advance actual game design by removing the existing bottlenecks of current systems(PC included), which for the longest time has been the hard drive.

People love to moan on about how games aren't advancing. But, when advancement comes, it gets twisted into a console war argument. By the gen after next, SSD, and the paradigms being put into play now, will probably become the norm, even for PC.

And that's a very good thing.

[XabiDaChosenOne]

We have gone through entire generations with 2D spirtes, sub HD etc.. what is your point? Technology advances so that we have new standards. Your argument is stupid.

[Jsm89k]

If that's the case then this might convince some developers to go exclusive.

[Obscure_Observer]

@Jsm89k

"If that's the case then this might convince some developers to go exclusive."

Which might be a good thing for both consoles.

[Baza]

Just like Series X TFLOP advantage will be irrelevant for third party developers.

[Fishy Fingers]

No. Graphic settings are easily upped/lowered. It's literally just changing a parameter and benching.

That's why PC versions don't look like consoles (or the upgraded consoles vs the OGs). PC just gives you those parameters/settings. Consoles its set by the dev.

[Axonometri]

All the alcohol comes from the same tap. You can choose what your drinking, but it all comes out the same hardware.

[IRetrouk]

Pure bull, cerny covered this in his original ps5 talk.

"Behind the scenes, the SSD's dedicated Kraken compression block, DMA controller, coherency engines and I/O co-processors ensure that developers can easily tap into the speed of the SSD without requiring bespoke code to get the best out of the solid-state solution. A significant silicon investment in the flash controller ensures top performance: the developer simply needs to use the new API. It's a great example of a piece of technology that should deliver instant benefits, and won't require extensive developer buy-in to utilise it."

https://www.eurogamer.net/a...

[I_am_Batman]

That just means that it'll be easy for developers to use the full potential of the PS5 I/O without having to do low level optimization, because the architecture works on a system level and doesn't need any specific implementation on the software level except for supporting the new API.

That doesn't change the fact that a game that is build from the ground up to use these kind of speeds can't be easily ported to the PC or even Xbox Series X without significant sacrifices. This in turn means that multiplatform devs won't have much of an incentive to build a game that relies on PS5 I/O speeds.

If there is noticable loading, PS5 will benefit from the additional speed even on multiplatform games, but if you wanna see the full potential in terms of game design, you'll only see it fully realized in exclusive games.

[IRetrouk]

I understand game design is going to be held back by hdds, but there is far more the ssd can do than just make levels load faster or stream in newly designed worlds, texture streaming, texture quality and texture loading can all benefit from the ssd and io speed increase too.

[I_am_Batman]

@IRetrouk: Yes. A highly scalable engine like UE5 that is designed with all modern platforms in mind will likely be able to stream in higher quality assets due to the higher I/O bandwidth of the PS5. That's not what really excites me about the PS5 I/O speeds though.

There will be exclusive games that can make use of the architecture in ways that simply won't be possible on other platforms. Imagine Bioshock infinite like tears for example. Only that you will be able to move through them into other worlds in real time without the need of a loading screen. Or imagine the next God of War. An epic boss fight against Thor and during the fight you warp from one realm to the next. This kind of stuff is what excites me much more than slightly higher detailed rocks.

[IRetrouk]

I'm excited by all of that too, the SSDs and io systems in these new consoles are a real jump, I'd say as big as 3d was, I'm just pointing out that's not where all the benefits lie, excited to see what sony shows on thursday.

[I_am_Batman]

Same here. Can't wait to finally see the PS5 in action.

[StormSnooper]

@I am Batman
“Fully realized”, yes. But that doesn’t mean that multiplats cant create a common game that works with both devices, and then go back and add more assets to the PS5 version’s more capable SSD.

[I_am_Batman]

@StormSnooper: That would still be a bottom-up approach which is not what Thomas was responding too. I get the feeling that most people didn't take the time to read what this is actually about.

[buffig]

This isn't necessarily true. While it may often be the case. In the future, there is a very real possibility the SSD spped will sit along side CPU, GPU and RAM as a games requirements. For example, on PC, If you want a to hit ultra requirements you'll need a 3080, 32GB RAM and a 5000mb SSD. Below this spec, geometry detail and complexity will start to downgrade, load times increase and any other number of things may change. Simply transfer that analogy to the here and now in the console space and there you have it. Ways in which the developer can develop for the higher tier and lower tiers are downgraded accordingly. Dismissing this out of hand is the obvious and lazy thing to do. Doesnt mean that is reality, especially as Cerny already outlined that next to no work is required by the developer to leverage ssd speed

[xX-oldboy-Xx]

The xbox one? Is that what they mean? I dont go to that website - it's trash through and through.

Either way thank fark for Sony 1st party.

[Whitey2k]

If its not built around the ssd and its the same all around. Theres other advantages that comes with the ps5 ssd aswell and thats streaming higher quality assets

[Spicyram]

What is it going to take to get this into people's heads? im still seeing people say raw power and numbers are everything. People need to do some research

[Games1st]

Devs that won't compromise will go exclusive.

[waverider]

Of course 3rd party studios wont care about where they get 50, 60, 70% of their sales.... Thats make perfect sense... Where do we get more money? Sony.... Who cares... We dont want to make money....

[-Foxtrot]

If that’s the case then what’s the point with power...if a console is too powerful then wouldn’t the same apply?

I just think Sony and Microsoft need to at least agree one gen what to aim for so third party developers will take full advantage

[Bluemaster77]

How many times are we gonna hear about this SSD exhausting to keep hearing about storage as if thats the only important part of a console ITS NOT

[StormSnooper]

This is a MS developer talking about PS5.

[Ghostbob]

Sony will easily have a lot of second parties making games only for PS5 who will also take full advantage of the PS5 SSD.

[Bathyj]

Well this is nothing we didn't know. Multiplat Games always have to take that into account. It reminds me a bit of when Xbox stuck with DVD and everyone said Blu-ray didn't properly get utilised.

But I can't blame Microsoft for this one, I'm not going to claim they are holding anything back, they still put a great hard drive into the Xbox series X a big improvement over last gen. Sony just put an even better one and first party games are always where a console shines the brightest.

[NextGenCeo]

Game Industry will be change especially on PC. Because people still playing games with 7200RPM HDD or Just Sata3 SSD with 500mb read and write speeds. So years and years Nvidia and Amd do new Graphics tech or Intel they do fast CPUs but no body think how you gone feed does fast PC chips? NVME comes on that part but even a PC market good ssds over 100$ for 1tb nvme.
Soon or later developers will start use PS5 5.5gb ssd and Xbox Series X 2.4gb ssd for create new games but multiplatform games can`t do that atleast 2 more years.

Because games still should work on 7200RPM PC HDD or Sata3 550mb read write speed ssd`s. PC on that side main problem for game developers. When they open the Steam most hardware page they will still seeing GTX 1060 GPU and lots of HDD with 8-16gb memory with 4-6 core cpus from 3-4 years old.
And their games should work on those PC system if they want to be Multiplatform released with Game Consoles and PC.
NVME SSD price should be get low on PC market globally. Other Wise games never gone be desing for fast nvme ssd`s.
(ESL guy here sorry for English)

[Minute Man 721]

This super fast SSD tech ( not as fast as PS5 n XsX) was around since 2016.

[ShadowWolf712]

Why do people seem to be cheerleading the idea of games being held back?

[blue88]

So Xbox series x will hold back the ps5 not the other way around lol. Xbox fanboys on Twitter are going be super angry when they hear about this news.

[TKCMuzzer]

Microsoft are holding the series X back by not treating it as a next gen console out of the gate.

[Bathyj]

This. Xbox fanboys are beating their chest about a small TFlop advantage over PS5 and then ignoring their games are going to be designed to run on an XBox One S. They're sacrificing the potential of next gen to support a console they barely supported in the current Gen. People argue and argue about hardware but it's Microsoft's vision that is what turns me off.

[Shiore2u]

Look at all this cope in the comments.

[Shalawsorchi]

Let’s punish lazy developers with our wallets. Let them learn on the hard way!

[BenRC01]

And in other news the sun will set tonight. Capt Obvs.

[StormSnooper]

At the rate 2020 is going, I wouldn’t be so sure (;

[sampsonon]

It doesn't matter. Sony's devs are the best in the industry. And now they have the best tech to work with. Others will see it and do the same. They will just need to dumb down the other versions. Well, until pcs and ms catch up in a few years
:)
Devs make art and if you think they will pass up having a larger colour pallet and a better brush set you are dreaming.
It's about realizing their creation as close as possible.

[S2Killinit]

Looks like MS is worried.

[Ashunderfire86]

Well there is a way around this when it comes to third party games. Gamers remember that both Sony and Microsoft always have marketing deals with third party developers. Sony has marketing rights for Call of Duty and Microsoft has mareketing rights for Assassin Creed Valhalla for example. I am pretty sure that there will be third party games that will take full advantage of the SSD.

As for the lowest common denominator, I blame Microsoft for forcing crossgen and low end PCs capability with next gen third party games. We have to wait 2 years until most third party games to take full advantage of SSD gaming with PS5 and Series X. Microsoft has 4 variations of Xboxes that is a total mess of capability like Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, and Lockhart! All Xboxes have different power levels in descending order. Yes even the Xbox One and One S has a difference. One S is 1 percent more powerful with memory space needed to play 4K Blu Ray movies, so there is a small difference. Sony, on the other hand, focus more on the PS5 which is expected for next gen. Microsoft talk too much about power and need to show actual gameplay running on the Series X! Not gameplay cutscenes! Live gameplay with someone playing those games on a controller.

[Whitey2k]

The problem with series x aswell and they done this with xbox one. Despite having high bandwidth and a better Gpu the thing thats gonna hurt them down the line is the split ram.

[Shadow Man]

Not this again. Same thing happened during the PS3 and Xbox 360 console era. You had some games been down graded because of the Xbox 360 using DVD and not blu-rays.

[Minute Man 721]

What game was that again????

BC multiplats ran worse on tbe PS3 and and exclusive the 360 could run it no problem.

Just look at Burnout Paradise, made on the Cell first, 360 ran it problem free

[Italiano1234567]

And teams have also said that their gonna have to find a work around for microsoft's slower ssd

[angh]

It will benefit all the titles written for modern engines, like UE5, which will scale down code for inferior systems.
All those loading screens (asets) will be placed at certain areas where ps5 will simply go through.

[leoms]

Ahh so multiplats developpers don't want to make their lives easy??? You guys are wild lmao.

[CanadianTurtle]

Wait, so is this going to be a PS3 situation all over again? Where multiplats ran better on the 360 while the PS3 got the shorter end of the stick. Or is this situation different? From reading other articles, people were reporting that the PS5 will be even more developer friendly than the PS4. So how does this work out for multiplat devs??

[ironmonkey]

Coming from a side scrolling developer owned by ms.

[Livingthedream]

No biggie I'm buying both consoles, both are going to have great looking games no doubt about it. It'll be interesting to see what can be done on these machines.

[caddytrek]

So, 3 generations in a row Microsoft is the lowest common denominator, it's nice of them to admit it.

[Hakuoro]

So in the end you'll have games where PS5 is the lead platform and Xbox games have elevator rides in the middle of the forest, and Games where the Xbox is the lead platform and we have elevators forced into PlayStation games because Xbone.

[Minute Man 721]

What's up with all these doom n gloom articles?

The XsX can access 100 GBs of virtual ram due to the VA

Both consoles will be fine

[IRetrouk]

Its 100GBs of assets available for the devs to pull from not vram.

[Minute Man 721]

DF will disagree with you, I had to go back on the video and listen again.

[GreatSako2020]

Why would 3rd party developers bother Mark Cerney with this I/O if they don't utilize it? Wasn't developers who requested the super fast SSD? How about we shut or mouths and wait for Thursday. Everyone denied the SSD speed and then the reveal comes with 5.5GB/s. Everyone denied it will help with graphics, and then UE5 happened. Now everyone doubts 3rd party developers will utilize it and...... Thursday we will see...

[Mulando]

And that is the PC.

[WheatBread]

Obviously.

[Italiano1234567]

So then that would be the xbox lockhart

[drunkenspy007]

History has shown that isn't true at all. Usually developers optimize on one system they prefer then it gets passed on to the rest.

[OB1Biker]

Of course they will be developed for it too.

[Kaedro]

Least Common Denominator: AKA XSX

Edit: Oh wait, those retards at Microsoft are still clinging to that failure known as Xbone.

[Mithan]

Probably most multi-plats will be, but if its such a ground breaking feature as they say it is, one would expect that a lot of them will at least try and take advantage of it. First gen engines may not, but I would expect as they evolve throughout this next generation, they will.

[antikbaka]

oh...someone finally said it

[GamingSinceForever]

Is it me or does MS and their exclusive developers love to mention the PS5 in their interviews?

I think the developers will focus on the platform with the highest potential for copies sold. It's business in the end.

[MidnightMay0r]

Lowest common denominator meaning Xbox lockheart.

[isarai]

I'm sure we'll see some benefits in 3rd party games, how much of a benefit really depends on how much they are willing to stray away from "parity" between versions. That being said i knew from the start that 1st party would be where it would really shine, and i don't understand why people are saying this like it's a bad thing lol. It's for that reason that i'm more excited to see the PS5 exclusives more than anything else. The 11th can't come soon enough!.

[iofhua2]

And all games on Ps5 will be censored anyway.

[DiRtY]

The least common Denominator will be PS5 when it comes to GPU, CPU and memory bandwidth

[marinelife9]

I mainly only purchase Sony exclusives anyway so no effect.

[Rimeskeem]

An indie developer for xbox is stating how PS5 hardware wont matter.

Alright, sounds super reasonable to believe and that he would have no bias in this statement or anything.

[ElementX]

You can build more elaborate game worlds with next-gen hardware, but you still have practical limitations, such as the number of objects on screen. We have game worlds that look great, running on less RAM and MUCH slower HDDs. Devs aren't going to suddenly cram 2x the number of things on screen, it's not feasible and it would hinder game play. They can use higher quality textures, but 4k textures are still great, 8k assets require 4x as much space, so unless you want huge file sizes, 4k and lower will still be the norm. We have 4k texture packs running 50GB+ for some games, imagine 4 times that much for higher quality textures, it won't be done. There's a 8k Skyrim texture pack that replaces some of the ground textures and that's over 3GB alone. If you consider 4.8GB/sec (compressed), that's 600 textures that can be read off the SSD per second, no game will use that many.

Textures will continue to get reused like they have in previous generations. It's not feasible to create 2x or 3x as many because that would significantly increase dev time and costs, not to mention hardware limitations. You may have some variety to various wood textures, stone, brick, etc, but tons of textures get reused in creative ways for many objects. Being able to read 1200 textures per second off a drive is useless, that number would never get used on screen at any time. That would be a good chunk of the total number of textures in the entire game!

PC will be the lowest common denominator. Those SSDs are slower but they're improving. No PC game ever requires state-of-the-art tech in terms of minimum system requirements. They may require an SSD, but they're not going to start asking for 5GB IO drives any time soon.

[Destiny1080]

You realize there will be textures a lot higher then 8K At least on the PS5 Version

[ElementX]

Doubtful. They'd take up too much space and also there wouldn't be enough GPU RAM to hold very many textures. Many games also use 2k, even 1k textures for various things.

"For any reasonably complex game with a lot of different environments, I think it's safe to say that it will use thousands of textures. Let's just toss out 10,000 as a nice round number.

Going with Unreal Engine file sizes, for 1K textures (basically a "high quality" texture), the game would need 13.3GB of textures. Bump up the resolution to 2K textures and that jumps to 53.3GB. And if you want the latest and greatest 4K textures, you're looking at 223.7GB. Oops. And that's just for textures—most games will also have lots of audio files, especially if they're fully voiced (like Call of Duty and Red Dead Redemption 2). Add in map geometry files and some videos and any modern game that uses 4K textures is going to end up being pretty massive." https://www.pcgamer.com/why...

Using 10,000 unique 4k textures would take about 223GB, 4x that for 10,000 8k textures. It's not feasible to use 8k for most things, except in certain circumstances.

[Destiny1080]

Gran Turismo uses 12k textures for all its cars and that's on a ps4

[Flewid638]

Just like every generation ever in the history of gaming.

Exclusive games customized for the platform will always be superior. 3rd parties make exclusives too. Either way its looking like a good gen.

[XBManiac]

Well... I buy a console for its exclusive games. For any other game... I invest on PC. No problem here, PS5 is a first day buy.

[WelkinCole]

Sony after launching PS4 had extensive consulation with devs about the PS5. I am sure Sony discussed a lot with 3rd parties what they wanted. The overwhelming majority wanted a fast ssd. Dev kits for the PS5 were already reported in the wild 3 years into PS4. With EPIC showcasing thier 3rd party engine on PS5. I am pretty sure Sony has ironed out most if any issues for 3rd parties in that they will take advantage of the fast ssd on PS5 without having to customise any of their custom game engines for the PS5.

[neomahi]

If the Xbox Series X is the "Worlds Most Powerful Console," then well, I guess focus is on the PS5 anyway. Games will be optimized and developed to maximize the PS5 and XboneseX will get the PS3 treatment. Too bad for the PS3 when you saw Uncharted and The Last of Us, honestly.

[yeahokwhatever]

this is super dumb. ps5 is the winner for Unreal 5(according to epic), which is what the majority of non-exclusives will be using. also, you're all REALLY underestimating the sound chip.

[Jamaicangmr]

"Lowest common denominator" If any one else said this Xbox community would be at war calling you all kind of names and saying 12TF. Interesting

Anyways so this basically means XSX will be holding multi platform gaming back.
Plus lead console is not taking into account here. If a PS5 is the lead console best believe they will be taking advantage then scaling back to run on slower SSD.

[Wontime1]

Hey look another ssd article

[Harryvok]

And this is why PS5 exclusives have the highest potential for doing amazing things next gen.

Series X games will have to run on PC. This will hold them back from their full potential.

[hamburgerhill]

This has to be the most brilliant spin ever. So of a game looks inferior on PS5 then claim it's because of Xbox SX. Really people. SMH

[Saijahn]

This is common sense. That’s why I never understood all the hype over an ssd that will only be pushed to its limits by first party titles 🤦🏽‍♂️

[GamingSinceForever]

Which is perfectly fine because Sony’s exclusives are what make the Playstation, else the One X would be selling way more because it clearly plays multi-plats better. The Series X will likely play multi-plats better but we all know that won’t matter to most consumers.

[blackblades]

None of these fools know that they just just talking out there ass on what they would do not not other devs.

[sourOG]

Well yeah lol...

[AizenSosuke]

I feel damage control over here but it's my opinion of course.

[Pyrofire95]

There will still be some benefits, like largely load times, which is still nice. It'd likely be minimal though as Both will still be using SSDs anyway, PSs SSD is insane but Xboxs is pretty fast too, it's still SSD and it will take some time to see benefits too.

[ocelot07]

But it's not just about to he SSD speed it's about the I/o Sony has developed for the ps5 that's what the devs are all praising.

[Pyrofire95]

Very true that's really what the difference is.

[ocelot07]

Yup and it's a big difference. If a legendary game developer is praising it you know it's good.

[Lexreborn2]

If it’s developed for least common denominator and people have been swearing PS5 is weaker then SX. Then doesn’t that mean they would develop with PS5 in mind? This is why you don’t argue on the internet about this shit

[ikarodemon]

This is the way game development are since the beginning.

[RangerWalk267]

Sony's SSD solution is kind of like their cell chip. It might be good, but it makes third-party developers work extra to try to make good use of it. It's going to be skipped over

[GamingSinceForever]

You literally got that completely wrong.

[blackblades]

You confused bruh better yet delusional as hell.

[lazyboyblue]

I don't see why PS fans still get drawn into these debates. Power has never been what makes a platform great - it's the games. If it was power then Switch wouldn't be constantly sold out all the time.

[Darkborn]

Or second party. If a dev studio really wants to push into new boundary, they'd make a PS5 exclusive so they could really utilize the SSD.

[PhantomX02]

News of what these new consoles are capable of must be making PC elitists feel alittle jaded of all the spotlight. Please feel free and defend yourselves. Tell me why we should buy a PC for gaming over these new consoles for thousands of dollars this year? I'll get my popcorn...

[anast]

PS5 day one

[MIDGETonSTILTS17]

Didn’t the PS2 destroy the OG Xbox in terms of console sales, but Ubisoft still committed to making each Splinter Cell game have noticeably better graphics on the Xbox version?

I think games will run on PS5 great, no matter the developer. And I’m expecting the PS5 exclusives to be more impressive than Gears/Halo 6.

[cell989]

More expensive levels because they have to build less?? Lol that’s the whole point of this new architecture, save development time building your game, means saving money

[jwillj2k4]

Stop holding the PSV back with your slow ass machines 🤣🤣🤣

[spambot0815]

duh... tell me something that i don't know already. the last decade of pc gaming should everybody with just half a brain make obvious that building a high end pc for gaming is useless because you never get the equivalent in software for an up to date hardware due to no first party pushing it.

[mkis007]

Just had an interesting though, though it might just be stupid. What if Son'y releases their ps5 games on pc, but has the system requirement to run it be the same as ps5...meaning no pc can run ps5 games until pc is able to match the io.

[blackblades]

Sony isnt going to release there ps5 games on pc probably til ps6 hell not all of tht ps4 games will make it there honestly.

[mkis007]

I'm just saying it would kinda funny to watch the master racers flail around in this scenario. It could be used as a marketing ploy.

[Dragonscale]

So the new xbox is the lowest common denominator. Lol.

[Dissidia]

That would be PC and Xbox One as the lowest common denominator, not Series X.

[DVAcme]

While he does have a point, in that multiplatform games will be made with inclusiveness in mind, what he fails to mention is that Sony has a long history of 3rd-part exclusives for their systems, and those most likely will take advantage of the PS5's SSD. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if 3rd parties actually decide to approach Sony to make exclusives for PS5 precisely to take advantage of the features it offers not available in other systems.

[Shikoku]

Depends. Last gen lots of games chose PS4 as the standard Platform to begin from and it wasn't to begin with the lowest common denominator it was the best selling one so that doesn't always hold water.

[Acecalibur]

*system sound* Narrator: "Games play better on Playstation 5".

[XBManiac]

And that's the reason for having real exclusives for a platform es a good thing. Because exclusive titles make unique experiences and the best from each platform. Multiplatform games bring unhappy people who see others play better expending less or the same amount of money. Games for PC/consoles are stopping PC game development since PS3 days. PS4/Xbox One made it worse. Now, we face a time when Sony will defend exclusive development for PS5 and PSNow and it is good. But, also, a time when Epic and Steam will defend exclusives for high end PCs. At the same time, improved hardware for Stadia and GEFORCE Now will provide exclusives for them with better specs than anything that we can run at home, because of hardware and software optimization. This is for 2021, BTW, so we should play all the games we have shelved or we will lose the train of progress.