Gears 5’s inclusion on the Xbox Game Pass service didn’t stop it from outselling Gears of War 4, said Microsoft executive vice president of gaming Phil Spencer at the XO19 event this week.
Come on man, just put out a factual number. Until a number is officially posted, this is just another case of an exec saying "take our word for it". Not saying it's not true.
Even if they did put out factual numbers, what’s to stop the people here from saying that they “fake” those numbers? They’ll never win, especially on this site.
On this site the standards for things change depending on the company in question. For example,first party games that get 70s or 80s from Microsoft, etc are considered failures. Yet, Sony games that get similar scores are either: not for everybody, or being overly criticized by reviewers. Or Microsoft games that sell 4 million copies are considered a flop, but similar selling Sony games are a success.
If they're official numbers that they outright say and/or put out to the verified public, that should be the end of it regardless of who likes it or not. Fanboys on both sides are always going to have something to say on this site regardless the company. But having OFFICIAL statements negates some arguments
Sciurus Well, on the other hand gears 5 gets applauded as THE best thing since sliced bread with a metscore of 84, while certain people laugh at death stranding for being a failure while sitting at a meta of 83. You see it goes both ways, but is just that one group has alot less opportunities/ releases where they can show this kind of behaviour
If they put out factual numbers, number that can be confirmed or supported by multiple 3rd party sources, then anyone crying fake can be proven to be full of it. Mind you, given current era, if 99 independent environmental scientists say climate change is a thing while polluting companies get the one working for them to say otherwise, putting PR firms behind that one scientist, creating doubt in the other 99, then we are all just that f**ked. In regards to everything.
It is still a fact that it outsold gears 4.
I first started lurking here in the early 360 days, it wasn't always pro Sony, I came here after the original gears launched. an ther
Agree 100% lol
It's still an exec of a publicly traded Corp. "Take our word for it" still cannot be materially false or intentionally misleading.
what it can be thought atom is potential deflection. Like for example, a company tells you such and such is a big success, then said product gets phased out because the product wasn't the success that they claimed it to be. Kinect is an example of that. HOME is an example of that. This is why official numbers are important. They can't be disputed. Sure, anyone can "spin" them. But it's just like what they say in basketball, the numbers don't lie.
I get that, but the SEC wouldn't care about "deflection." It would care if he came out and falsely made a statement that would impact shareholders. Like lying about sales figures, for example. And unfortunately, we do have Kinect numbers. They were way better than they deserved to be.
@Atom666 You'd be completely right if we were talking about him reporting to the SEC or FTC. But this is him in an interview with Eurogamer. So it's not exactly the same in regard to penalty. He can tell a news outlet, fans, ect anything he wants to be honest. If he were talking to the SEC like you said then yeah, this would be a different matter all together for sure IF he was lieing
No, he really can't. Hell, Elon Musk was brought up on charges for a tweet.
10b-5s can be brought as a claim by shareholders or the SEC directly. Damages wouldn't be as difficult to establish as materiality of these types of statements. Spencer has been with MS for 30 years, and press interaction is a primary component of his job. He'll know the difference between puffery and explicitly stating that a product sold more than X. He'd have defenses if this type of statement was false, but he'd also be out of a job. People try too hard to say he could be lying. Gears 4 released in 2016. Safe to say they've sold many more systems since then to make his statement pretty obviously true.
"He'll know the difference between puffery and explicitly stating that a product sold more than X. He'd have defenses if this type of statement was false, but he'd also be out of a job." "Gears 5 sold well for us. It sold better than Gears 4. And we feel good about it." I am not saying that total sales of Gears 5 isn't greater but if called out all he has to say is that he meant during this (whatever period) of time. No way he would lose his job if total sales of Gears 5 is less than 4.
I never assumed it was lifetime sales. I took it as 2 months of 5's sales are higher than 2 months of 4's sales. I can't see this being true of lifetime sales. He cannot fabricate that.
That is my point you assumed what you wanted. Without a specific time frame we have no idea what it actually means so there would be no reason to fire him. He could be talking about sales on a full moon the PR is good for MS so this statement could never cost him his job.
Lol. Why is this even arguable? How many articles do we see calling DS the biggest new IP, or COD as the best selling new COD. Do people think that means total sales? If it hasn't outsold Gears 4's initial numbers, and he went out a fabricated that, yeah, I'm not confident he'd still be around. This just reinforces my point. Nothing triggers more scrutiny than a Spencer interview. With that in mind, he really knows not to go out there lie. As much as people want to get upset anytime he talks, he's bound by some serious standards. By all means, people are free to report him for lying.
@Atom666 It's your time to waste so do what you want to do... but you're wasting it arguing with these guys.
I mean...youre already searching for reasons NOT to believe him now haha. Why do you feel it would be any different with official number? All you would do is fine some type of logic to claim its still not impressive.
Why would anyone need to search for a reason? Official numbers puts any argument to rest regardless of whether or not anyone likes them. So please, show me where the searching for a reason is?
And yet here we are! Phil said out his own mouth that Gears 5 outsold Gears 4, yet how many people here are trying to find ways that its still not impressive...or calling him a flat out lyer... "In that context, how do you view the success of a title like Gears 5? It's obviously not about sales for you. So how do you justify the investment in a big project like that? How do you measure its success when you've got this game that's coming out on Game Pass day and date with retail? Phil Spencer: Gears 5 sold well for us. It sold better than Gears 4. And we feel good about it. If people want to make the choice of buying Gears, that's an option we want to give them. I'm not trying to funnel everybody who wants to play Gears into the subscription. It's about giving gamers choice. Certain players will make the decision as part of Game Pass that they'll either want to start to subscribe, or they're already a subscriber and they stay subscribed." That's what its about! Gears 5 has more engagement than Gear 4...not only did it sell better but its player base is higher which is the real gage for success. Signing up through GP or buying outright...Microsoft is making money.
@Genkins People always argue with reviews. That's been going on since the day reviews came about. People need to keep in mind review are just opinions, So they can always be debatable. But we aren't talking about that. What we're talking about are official sales numbers. @timotim All Phil Spencer said was something happened WITHOUT giving an official number to it. The reason I say he should have put out the OFFICIAL number is because not only would it put things to rest, it would refute the evidence we see that contradict what he said. https://www.pcgamesn.com/ge... https://wccftech.com/npd-se... Those links I just put up would easily refuted if he just gave people official numbers. And as for the engagement, timotim, they were selling gamepass for $1 when Gears 5 came out. So of course it's going to have a higher engagement level than Gears 4. And I never said he was a liar. I will however say that evidence like the links I posted say things contrary to what came out of his interview. Which AGAIN is why I harp on needing official numbers. That way regardless of what any Playstation fanboy or Xbox fanboy says, numbers don't lie.
@Lodossrage You keep proving my point! He didn't need to give official numbers...first off, Microsoft doesn't do that anymore because it doesn't tell the whole story...and secondly, this wasn't a conference call style interview...why would he give him specific numbers as if it was? however he said flat out said that it indeed sold more! But here you are trying to post evidence that says something else haha. This is the head of Xbox were talking here...if anyone knows, HE would...yet that's not enough for you.
@timotim "That's what its about! Gears 5 has more engagement than Gear 4" ... You're even regurgitating their PR terms? Engagement. Really? Anyways. Saying it sold better is different in many contexts. Did it sell better day 1? What about week 1? Lifetime? Pre-order amount? What particularly did it sell better in? Microsoft is KNOWN for spinning things that were doing well. Zune is great example of that. They said it was successful and grouped it under different product markets that were doing successful and said it was doing well since they stuck them together. But, Zune itself performed miserably. Remember when Nokia and Windows phones were apparently doing well enough and were picking up? That certainly wasn't the case. Is it really so hard to understand distrust for this company and their lack of clarity? I don't care if you love them and are actually happy with the purchase. The history and facts are there and it was for many recent years and then some. It's funny when "selling-out" has become more of buying your way into a hole and a group that thinks one way but are too proud to admit the wrongs and to properly address them in such a way as to become wiser, rather than ignore it until something new comes along and only addressing the old issues when it no longer is relevant so you may appear objective at present.
@Sin Engagement, player base, more bros...whatever way you want to say it buddy...ill let you tell it. You can choose who trust or dont...that sounds like a personal issue to me...we aren't the same. At the end of the day, I'm going to take Phil's word over yours...he said it sold more...why is that so hard for you to believe? The more important thing is however, that Microsoft can put their AAA games on GP and retail #DayOne and still kick out a successful title that does well for their company...
@tim MS isnt interested in telling the whole story, and this statement tells less of a story than factual numbers would, and really the only thing it says is that it sold more than gears 4. But, without a frame of reference for gears 4 sales, it gives about as much context as it did when they didnt disclose gears 4 numbers. Statements like this create a narrative, but dont tell a story. The narrative is what MS wants to push, because they have a bunch of fans willing to do most of the work spinning the numbers for them, while others just hold onto doubt, and criticize without anything tangible to hold onto, which instantly devalues their criticism. I dont think Spencer lied, but doesn't mean what he said really means much, and it just means that we end up arguing assumptive conclusions, as opposed to forming conclusions based on facts.
Zhuge "This would need to include game pass to make sense." https://www.resetera.com/th...
Microsoft doesn't do that anymore because......reasons.
A power of cloud that can make your regular xbox one 4x powerfull and a true VR on the X, anyone still remembers? aahhh those days just feel like yesterday.
This is straight up bullshit. I have reliable sources that say Gears 5 only did 15% of the sales of 4 retail wise so unless 85% of people bought it digital, Phil is counting gamepass as sales which is pathetic.
"Phil is counting gamepass as sales" This is what immediately came to mind.
@Zigg Yep, Zhuge literally said "if you count Gamepass dowloads"
what good would releasing “factual numbers” do for you? Are you an investment analyst? are you a MS stockholder? like seriously, what direct benefit is there to you to release numbers? It sold well and did well on gamepass, which means they’re most likely to continue the story. I really don’t get it
I just want to know if he's lying. Lying affects your reputation
Would probably be as useful as when Sony releases their sales, and then the xbox fanboys find some reason why those numbers arent good. Like it only sold to a small percentage of the install base, despite hitting 10 million in sales. But, in this case, spencer is the one bringing up sales, but giving information which doesn't say much because there isnt really much frame of reference. For a Sony game, we know what it sold. For a ms game, we know it sold better than another game, but if that other game sold poorly, is that really an accomplishment. What about the fact gears 5 released on pc as well. Did the people who had game pass and brought gears 4 now just not buy it and play it in game pass? There are a lot of facts left out so Spencer can spread a narrative of his choosing, and the way its framed, it causes pointless contention based on assumptions, itead of less pointless contention based on worthwhile facts. If we knew the numbers of gears 4 and 5, we could conclude for ourselves that it sold better. We dont need to be spoonfed conclusions, as I assume most of us can perform basic arithmetic.
@rainslacker in that entire dissertation, you never answered the question. How would getting those numbers help you personally? Would it help your investment with MS. Did you work on the game and have performance based bonuses based on sales? He said it outsold the previous game. What does he gain from lying? Has he ever lied about sales numbers before? Please explain to me how you will gain personally from knowing that info
Its more about what it does for people who are investing their time and hard earned money into xbox, die hard people that bleed green like yourself, those people deserve real truthful transparency from Microsoft instead of empty promises and PR talk but I digress. Its not about being an analyst or a stockholder its about having real faith in the company you fanboy for and that company having enough confidence in the numbers they're selling to tell the world. MS used to have that confidence and now they don't.
***what good would releasing “factual numbers” do for you?*** I'd be more hopeful or a sequel. I might take more of an interest to try it out. I'd know more about the industry, which is part of why people are here (we aren't just consumers, we're curious about the industry and where it's going). What good would not releasing "factual numbers" do for you that you argue against people wanting them?
@Krib Sorry, I realize by your post in another thread, too many words makes it hard for you to discern my point. To answer -It wouldn't affect me personally. -Numbers means discussing something factual in context. -What's stated by Spencer leads to a lot of speculation, assumption, and derision. That's all.
“Xbox Game Pass didn’t stop Gears 5 from outselling Gears of War 4” Then release the sales numbers and back it up. Talk is cheap.
"Not saying it's not true" - yep... pretty much that is what you are insinuating.
Awesome ppl finally saying how this site sucks nuts literally
Agree with what you said on people telling the truth on what goes on around here. Fanboys are the worst on any side but these ps fanboys are scumbags like the president lol. I love my ps but the stuff they come up with on this site in defense of ps is unbelievable. Gears 5 outsold gears 4, ps fans want numbers then they release numbers and then they will say oh well gears 4 was a shitty game lol. Here is a fact gears 5 is a great game and one of the best of the year that sold very well while being free with gamepass that new comers can get for $1. People on here talk about how gamepass is not good but yet the games on gamepass still sell well.
Considering it sold terribly in the uk, wasn’t high up on the NPD in America (from what I recall), dropped out of the top played games on twitch and the Xbox dashboard, and quickly lost all its players on steam, I’m finding that hard to believe tbh. Especially when they were touting that GoW4 sold a few million copies last year when the achievement percentages came out and people tried to work out how many people that worked out to be. But, just like anything the developer or publisher of a game says, you can only take it with a grain of salt as they are paid to promote the games and clearly have an interest in making them sound much more popular than they really are.
The issue I find with this statement it's that the could be referring to ANYTHING, is he talking about lifetime sales? The US? The first day? The first year? First week? PC? Worldwide? I find it hard to believe that gears 5 so far has already sold more copies than lifetime gears 4 sales, specially if you add the fact that day one was on Gamepass.
It was on PC, and the X1 userbase is higher now. Plus, it's not like the entirety of the X1 user base is using Game Pass. Maybe it just means that not as many people are using game pass as some people are positing, because they still prefer to own their games. Maybe it's as MS says, Game Pass doesn't effect game sales, but it'd be interesting to see how the numbers line up between console and PC copies sold. Of course, we won't get that....ever, but we can always have fun complaining about how MS loves to obfuscate numbers, and make statements which don't really say anything while they equate two things while leaving out a lot of the nitpicky details which actually matter. Dunno if I believe anything that I said above. Just pointing out that I can easily spin anything with ease, just like the execs at MS can. Greenburg taught me well.
Yea you're right.
This is exactly what I said he should have spoke the numbers. I'm not going to sit here and say thing man is being deceiving or not. But the evidence (which you laid out) we've seen thus far say the exact opposite.
It depends how it sold. Digital games are not tracked as far as I am aware and if you look at Xbox gamers in general they tend to buy digital. Also don't forget you get a discount on GP games to and your also forgetting about pc gamers to who also buy more digital than retail. Lots of if buts and maybes but then again I don't care love the game and Microsoft just looking at numbers and if the numbers are what they expect/above it then they are doing well.
Thanks for this useful information. Now I can proceed with my life as a gamer
Let me see them numbers PHIL!!!
He wont give them cause he knows its not true. He is counting gamepass in sales by his logic Bloodborne has now passed 40+ million in sales. Gamepass has destroyed game sales on Xbox we have the data to back that up from microsoft themselves but soon they wont even give that data anymore in their quarterly reports.
Gears 5 didn't even make the npd top 20 in only its 2nd month. Cant be selling that much
Interesting news indeed. Gears 5 outsold Gears 4 (Im assuming in the same time in its life span) even with a huge push from Gamepass for Gears 5...that's big.
That's also a lie. I think you know it too.
He does that's why it's funny.
You CANNOT include Game Pass downloads as sales.
"Phil Spencer: Players. How many people play a game. But I think we'll get more sophisticated than that over time. As Game Pass continues to grow, I don't want us to think that every game has to reach every subscriber. Because the subscriber base is already too big for that. What I love is when creators can understand that in a base of players that's that large, there are sub-communities inside of Game Pass where you can say, hey, I'm gonna go do a black and white puzzle game because I know there are a few million people there who will go play that game. Somebody else can say, I'm gonna do a turn-based strategy game because I know there are enough people. I really want to foster diversity, not every game trying to reach every player from now until the end of time, which so many games I see that are pure retail today, their model is, here's how I bring people in and here's how I keep them playing forever and ever. That's great for some games, but I don't want every game to be that kind of game, because it's just not true that the creative lends itself to every game being that game." Some people on this site would have you believe that GP is just for service games, yet here is Phil saying how he WANTS devs to make specific games for specific audiences within GP. SP, MP, small puzzle games and have its community seek it out from those that like that style game. Sobering. Keep doing what you do Phil! We loving it!
LOL.. Timmy just stop. Phil "saying".. MS is the best at "Saying" but time to show will have to come soon.
Gears 5 sold 4 kajillion. 1 kajillion more than Gears 4.
I wouldn't put to much stock into the n4g naysayers who are anti Xbox after all we as a community have to out a cease on the key board warriors who judge everything Xbox. It's time to rise above the hate. Lead into good discussions. Ignore the fearmongering.
This is Microsoft speak. There's no way Gears 5 outsold Gears of war 4. Microsoft says all the time "we want release sales numbers" and then they make a claim like this. Many gamers that were Xbox gamers last gen have moved to PlayStation because they lost trust in Microsoft because of hardware problems, lack of exclusives other than the Dudebro 3 and most important Microsoft just can't tell the truth they BS about everything and this claim is a classic example.
You hit the nerve.
I moved from Xbox 360 to PS4 this gen, but have recently moved back to Xbox One largely because of Game Pass. To be clear, I own all the consoles. I’m talking about which console I consider my primary. The Xbox One X is now my primary. I originally bought it to get the best RDR2 graphical experience. Since then, I play all multiplatform games on it and many Game Pass games. I only use the PS4 for exclusives I’m interested in, but those are few and far between. This year it has only been Judgment and Death Stranding. I have put close to 50 hours into Death Stranding though, so my Xbox has been getting a breather for the past week.
On a console starved of exclusives this comes as no surprise. I played half of it via gamepass and it was just the same old gears to me.
Maybe people play it on game pass, then buy it with the discount you get from games pass. You do get a discount from the games you buy from game pass. That's what I did.