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Jim Ryan: Devs Love How Easy the PS5 is to Code For

Jim Ryan, Head of Sony's PlayStation division, said that game developers are positively receiving the new console.

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chrisx8d ago

That's great news. One can only imagine how amazing PS5 exclusives would look and play.

darthv728d ago

I got a feeling the next gen wont be about what you see but about what you dont see. All the finer details that otherwise would go unnoticed. Improved fidelity and fluidity to make the overall experience even better. And most of all.... access time.

fiveby97d ago

A solid 4k 60 fps with very low load times will be fantastic. Add to that ray tracing and the visuals could be amazing.

Neonridr8d ago

I can't imagine how the coding would be much different from the PS4. It's still the same architecture, just with some more powerful toolsets.

TKCMuzzer7d ago

Well I suppose that's why your on N4G making comments and not making games for the PS5 :)

Neonridr7d ago

Both systems are x86 architecture.

Rude-ro7d ago

They are right.
Sony has spent 2/3’s if this gen building game engines for not only this gen, but mainly next gen in mind. Gt sport started this path.

To see what Hideo did in 3 years with death stranding is unimaginable honestly...

Just imagine developers that do not put that much effort in a game.. that will be some fast turn overs as far as production times go.

Minute Man 7217d ago

You are right bro. Just more powerful toolsets. Coding is the same C++

rainslacker7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

More C and assembly code than c++. APIs are a derivative of vulcan, and can be coded to in various languages.

C++, or something similar, is used for higher level function calls, system operations, and in many cases structuring the game loop so it's easier to read within the game engine

Some game engines use their own languages as well, although all major ones can use some form of c++. In the end, it all ends up as hardware code by the compiler.

rainslacker7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

There are new hardware processing calls, and there are some considerations for RAM timing and utilizing some things that havent been talked about and most people wouldn't understand anyways. There is some stuff regarding how to use the hard drive as a virtual memory set up, but I think that's not going to be fully realized on the dev side because current game designs arent focused on that principal yet.

All generally speaking of course. I'm sure anecdotes could be found if the devs were disclosing info

I'm sure gamingbolt will make sure we hear about anything good for us

Neonridr7d ago

I meant the code is still written in the same way. Obviously as I said there were new toolsets available. But you still code the same way from one x86 machine to the next. Going from PS2 -> PS3 or PS3 -> PS4 was not the same at all. This is why you saw so many issues with some devs when it came to PS3 -> 360 games since they weren't remotely similar. Whereas with the XB1 and PS4 they were basically the same machines just with some minor tweaks so moving stuff from one to the other would be relatively easy. Moving from this gen to the next it will be increasingly easy for these devs since they are using the same architecture as the current gen.

rainslacker7d ago

When it comes to assembly, you code the same way from RISC(PowerPC) to CISC(x86). x86 is just a hardware set, so yeah, there are the same hardware calls. But there is more to it than just writing to the CPU, as there are other pieces of hardware which can be written to, and some of those are changing with the next gen.

It's not something that a dev needs to worry about, as the general principals are the same regardless, and most devs who write actual hardware code wouldn't have much issue going between systems. There's always some learning curve.

I wasn't trying to say you're wrong or anything in my first comment. Just expanding on some of the changes that exist. Nothing really out of the ordinary in terms of a generational change.

gamingunited8d ago

Well that's good news, given the BC it seems like this would need be the case to some extent.

Fishy Fingers8d ago

x86. It's any developers bread and butter.

darthv728d ago

Xbox did something right for the betterment of all.... go figure.

CaptainTravel8d ago

Some will never admit that. The Xbox 360 had major influence on how to make game development easy. All this emotion engine and celll stuff only works well if you control third party.

Apocalypse Shadow7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

If that's true, how come Sony ended up with better looking games overall on PS3 using Cell and those SPEs?

If it was so easy, how come Microsoft didn't have more first party exclusives last Gen?

How come they don't have more this Gen?

The thing Ken Kutaragi was right on was multiple processors and cores working together with a custom build to offset Moore's law. PC developers were used to one graphics chip or one CPU chip. He was right. Phones are multiple cores, tablets, laptops, consoles etc.

PC developers didn't want to try anything new with consoles. But I would say Sony could have made more effort in teaching those who couldn't keep up or had better Dev kits. But most weren't even trying and didn't use the SPEs. Which made first party look even better.

Ease is fine. But sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone and learn something different.

CaptainTravel7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

Does anyone know the last time Apocolypse ever said anything that wasn’t negative about Microsoft? The ps4 is proof you can make good hardware and also appease game developers. It’s why Jim Ryan is ecstatic about the ease of use developing on the ps 5.

You had Gabe Newell and many other developers talk about how time consuming it was and a pain in the ass making ps3 games. You also had many games perform better on cheaper Xbox 360 hardware.

The ps3 still hurts Sony to this day. No backwards compatibility, Kutaragi demoted, Sony losing a ton of money. On and on it goes but let’s listen to Sony’s biggest fan instead.

MasterCornholio7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

Didn't anyone miss the first part of Fishys comment?

x86

The Xbox 360 didn't use x86 it used a custom made Power PC core made by IBM. It wasn't x86 at all.

Now I do give the 360 props for making a system that was easy to develop for.

Development was made even easier when both Sony and Microsoft decided to use x86 since that's an architecture that almost all game developers are familiar with due to its use in almost every aspect of PC gaming. Not to mention having a unified memory structure made things even better for developers.

Edit: I just did a bit of research and I just found out that the 1st Xbox used x86. On a side note it's interesting how Microsoft used PowerPC with the 360 and reverted back to x86 with the Xbox One.

@Captain

"The ps4 is proof you can make good hardware and also appease game developers."

And the Xbox One was proof of the opposite in the beginning. But it appears that both manufacturers have learned from their mistakes with hardware and won't be repeating it in the future.

"The ps3 still hurts Sony to this day."

True. But thankfully the PS4 rectified most of those mistakes with the PS3. The PS5 will probably be fully BC with the PS4 for example.

darthv727d ago

@cornhole... you really didnt know the og xbox was x86? I think most everyone knows that. And the custom PPC in the 360 was also capable of supporting x86 instructions as well.

Rude-ro7d ago

They monopolized architecture with their only blood flow in life... computing?
That’s not right, that’s demanding to control for self preservation

Stanjara7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

I do agree. Apocalypse Shadow - Sony had Blu ray storage advantage on PS3 where their first party had a lot more animations and detail - content in levels at the end of a gen, but the whole 7th gen was delayed muddy ports due to Cell and split memory, slow network and downloads. Even saving put you out of a game. Controller was light with loose sticks and loading or installing games was hideous.
They learned a lot and PS4 is fantastic. Only thing left now is to bring more effective cooling to the system and with tightening other features, we will have great ps5.

rainslacker7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

@captain

Directx, which is what I'm assuming Darth is referring to, is needed for higher level programming which isnt common on consoles. It's great for PC, because it removes a lot of barriers for the pc dev. Anyone who grew up in the DOS days remembers boot disks, and the devs had to write those hardware drivers, which didnt always work.

But any system can be made to work, and predominately, there are two formats that get used. X86, or powerpc, and devs of modest skill should be able to go from one to the other. Even all those special chips through the years were typically based in 8080, 8086(x86), or variants of powerPC. What made those chips unique is what made them special, and allowed the devs to do things that they couldn't do otherwise.

Modern consoles are more like pc, but the devs handle the programming much differently, and while x86 does allow for a good number of set commands to follow, it's not any harder or easier than other formats. Things like CELL were difficult because they used a completely different programming paradigm, which was amazing for when it came out, but devs wanted it easy...apparently at least. In the end, they learned CELL paradigms for GPU compute, just that the hardware calls are different, and the timing is not as crucial

Then directx for xbox isnt much different than what sony has available for pc. Different routines for various things, and different rendering process, but overall, you code for the two consoles differently.

Of course, if a dev is using a game engine then that handles a lot of the direct to hardware coding, so the only real change is what assembly calls they'd make with regard to the cpu architecture.

CaptainTravel7d ago (Edited 7d ago )

rainslacker one of the biggest issues the ps3 faced was its split memory.

Nobody could answer what I asked about Shadow, so I guess the answer is never

rainslacker6d ago (Edited 6d ago )

Split memory wasn't really that out of the ordinary when PS3 released. It's actually still the common way things are on PC...albeit PC games don't use as much memory management as that's done by the OS...and many game systems had split memory before the PS3 came out including the PS1 and PS2. I wouldn't say it was helpful, but it wasn't harmful. Even as late as last gen, Video memory was usually faster than system memory, which is why it was split, because video memory is faster, so you could have less, but faster memory.

Fun fact though. Discrete split memory on PC is actually better than unified memory, because a game can utilize DMA to video memory if it's programmed to do so with the new Vulcan or DX API's. While it always could, new DX and Vulcan allow for this direct access without the higher level input that the OS requires for memory management. While a GPU can use low level access to the system memory for graphics in new API's, it's still managed by the OS, which slows it down a bit. So, with discrete memory, it's advantageous to have split memory as GPU memory is generally a lot faster than system memory due to it's nature.

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stuckNhere4Good2d ago (Edited 2d ago )

x86 is stale bread and rancid butter.

MasterCornholio7d ago

That's great news. Im glad they didn't repeat the situation with the PS3 again.

Thundercat777d ago

They didn't with the PS4... Why they would do it with the PS5?

MasterCornholio7d ago

Some people were saying that they would get complacent and screw up in a big way. Plus all the changes that they had at SIE had some people worried that a Mattrick like era would come.

I'm just happy that the information we are getting is pointing away from that.

rainslacker7d ago

If it hadn't been for GPU compute becoming a mainstream thing, then the CELL paradigm was actually a damn good way to do what games were headed towards in terms if the kinds of data they were processing. I dunno if coupling it with just an RSX chip was a good thing for the long term, but it satisfied what was required for last gen.

Sony built CELL with the intent of making a more flexible coding environment for multi-point processing.

X86 has changed a lot since the CELL was designed, and couple with GPU compute, it isnt as appealing as it once was. But if those things didnt happen after the ps3 released, then CELL probably would have been a good way forward. However, since CELL also failed to catch on much for IBM, making the chips probably would have been prohibitively expensive after last gen, because there is no mainstream reason to get a CELL processor, and enterprise servers which is the other place CELL is used has other cheaper options.

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