Could Sony secure PS5 exclusivity for an AMD Navi APU?

AMD CEO, Dr. Lisa Su, has once more been talking about the work its semi-custom division has been doing with Sony to get the Zen 2 processors, and the upcoming AMD Navi silicon, working for the needs of the PS5.

But just how much influence has Sony had on AMD’s next-gen graphics architecture? And if the answer is ‘a lot’ does that mean it has any call on hardware exclusivity, potentially shutting Microsoft out of a Navi-based APU?

[UltraNova]

The answer is no. Only custom design choices build around Navi will be console "exclusive", the GPU architecture wont and both will come equipped with a Navi/ Ryzen SoC.

[Zeke68]

I don't know anything like the rest here on N4G but as 99% off this article is now proven a fact by Mark Cerny and the latest reports from AMD:
https://www.google.com/amp/...

What say the statement "Which brings us to, in my eyes, the more interesting revelation. According to my sources, Navi isn’t just inside the Sony PS5; it was created for Sony" isn't true? I just want to throw that into the discussion.
So your firm no might be wrong, I think it could very well be a Sony console exclusive and "normal" Navi for PC.
I base that on that rumour about 1-2 years ago that Sony pushed in 6-800 millions of dollars into the Navi development. Could just be their "special sauce" but it seems unlikely.
Exciting times anyway. I guess we have to keep on guessing for a little while longer.

[sprinterboy]

The custom navi chipset was designed for Sony not navi, just like Microsoft will have a custom built navi chipset from AMD

[Zeke68]

Could very well be true, but even if so, it will be interesting to see the difference and if Phil spencer gonna have to eat crow on his promise "always have the best hardware from now on".
For me personally nothing of that really matters. I have already pre-ordered a PS5 that will ship on the EU release day. I know Sony delivers, they have made me a happy customer since my first PS1 back at 1996.

[UltraNova]

You did not realize that you basically agreed with me. What's stopping MS from equipping their next xbox with an off the shelf but custom "Normal PC" Navi GPU?

[bouzebbal]

Don't care, as long as I get console exclusive games

[OB1Biker]

That old rumour was misleading though. First thing I thought at the time is the guy is talking about playstation because thats the info he knows about. There was nothing saying Ms wasnt doing something similar with a custom chip based on Navi too.

[Tigerblud]

How do you already have the PS5 pre ordered?

[nismo370]

"I have already pre-ordered a PS5 "
😂😂😂

[Ju]

It amazes me that despite 0 news on what MS does, the peoples of the internet know exactly what MS will be doing. Obviously the "Me too" rumors after every Sony "news" must carry more wait then the rumors itself.

First, MS did a full custom design "inhouse" with the XBOX, their chip has some severe extensions on the CPU side of things. But the GPU is off the shelve. To suggest MS going with a Navi/Zen APU is just speculation.

Second, the PS5 chip might not be a pure APU. By the looks of it, it won't. It will most likely have a 16GB DDR + 8GB HBM in what I'd call a hybrid configuration (under one memory controller). Same what the Pro already does with an added 1GB DDR. While not much talked about, this is the most feasible explanation how Sony gets to 24GB of memory and how they address bandwidth limitations in there current APU design. That might well be that "special sauce" if anything at all.

It is very interesting, that Navi has not been mentioned outside of Sony's endeavor. Even Google's stadia is using a stock 13Tf Vegas GPU. MS might not show anything at this E3, what then? They won't release anything before end of 2020, and might as well hold that big announcement back for next year. And who knows, might skip Navi, use some Vega cores or even go to the next iteration. First they have to sell XBOXs to at least recover some cost on that one. You can spin everything into any direction based on non-facts we have today.

[cd1]

I cant see PS5 having 24GB of RAM or using HBM2 - 16GB of GDDR6 sound more likely to me.

[Shikoku]

Or all of you and everyone on the internet is taking a phase used by AMD's CEO putting it n a context it was never meant and "special sauce" just means their games and how they produce awesome content.

[Shane Kim]

Don't think so.

[TheColbertinator]

Thanks for clarification, Shane.

[Shane Kim]

No problem, just let me know if I can be of more service.

[Profchaos]

Highly unlikely given how much money they would lose by not selling to both

[Zeke68]

Couldn't they just make another chip for M$?

[blacktiger]

cause everything is cheap right :p, this is a billions of dollar research

[GameBoyColor]

No there gpu division doesn't make much and they keep flopping on gpu releases. Making a whole new chip is out of the question, but if you are talking about modifying the current one that is exactly what they will be doing for both companies.

[PhoenixUp]

What doesn’t AMD have to gain by going exclusive?

[MajorLazer]

They won't gain more money for one

[Ju]

Its all about money. Really depends who contributed to the bottom line the last couple of years...

[PhoenixUp]

I meant to type “does” but spellcheck fucked up

[Gridknac]

Well if Sony worked closely with AMD developing a special Navi variant just for the PS5, then possibly that specific variant would be exclusive. I don't think that it really matters though, as I would think MS will have its own blueprint for a customized version of the chip.

[PhoenixUp]

Just like how Xbox 360’s Xenon had a chipset based on PlayStation 3’s Cell processor

[babadivad]

IBM made the PPEs in the Cell(the main processor) and sold a tri-core variant ti Microsoft for their console.

[Ju]

It was Sony contracting IBM to built that chip. Read this: https://www.amazon.com/Race...
And yet, IBM sold the same design to MS...money rules.

[cabbitwithscissors]

It does matter actually. One of the main reasons why IBM lost out for the PS4 architecture was due to the fact that they shared some of the technology derived from the Cell Processor Architecture (which was then used to come up with new technology that GPUs are today based on) to come up with the Xbox 360 Xenon architecture. Sony, Toshiba and IBM spent billions on coming up with that and Microsoft came along and took the results and sped up with the success that Xbox became until Sony took over the market after a number of years.

Rest assured that the new contract with AMD would have clauses protecting against these. No sharing of information and technology derived for the Playstation. Microsoft will have to come up with their own architecture basing on their best guess of what the PS5 would have, and they will have access to AMD's vault of technology, everything except what they are working with, with Sony.

[HighPlayer28]

U have any sources to back up that Microsoft took those cell processor results? I believe the engineers at Microsoft are more than capable of creating their own unique architecture with out stealing info from Sony.

[Sitdown]

"Microsoft will have to come up with their own architecture basing on their best guess of what the PS5 would have"

My gosh, I hope you have stock in Sony. So Microsoft is sitting around designing their console based off what they believe the ps5 will be, instead of just making the best console that they want?

[cabbitwithscissors]

@HighPlayer28 and @Sitdown :

Read the following:
https://venturebeat.com/200...

https://www.wsj.com/article...

You might want to get the book too if you're interested.

[cabbitwithscissors]

Another one:

http://www.gamasutra.com/vi...

[Ju]

That book was a actually a great read. We'll see if someone writes one for the next generation.

[rainslacker]

Uhhh...how did you come to that conclusion? The CELL technologies can be licensed for use by any company through IBM. Sony benefits from these licenses because they paid for the investment to research and develop the CELL processor, but Sony doesn't outright own the technology.

Any technology developed specifically for either console maker, payed for by the console makers themselves, may not be allowed to be used in the other's chip, but that isn't related to CELL. There is no sharing of technology but any technology developed by AMD could be used independently if the console maker wants them. For the most part, these companies are both going to be in tune with what might be necessary for the next gen, and they will develop their chips to be pretty close to one another, maybe with focuses on some different available features. It's not guess work, it's research, because we're talking about companies that actually shape what is available for the next gen.

[Shikoku]

I agree

[Ju]

@Rainslacker. Not true. IBM does not own the CELL, it does not own the SPUs. That was in fact brought in externally and there are PPE less SPUs variants available (I wonder if they live in Sony's X1 visual processor - but I don't know). So, no, IBM could not have licensed the CELL. But thety "sold" all the research STI did on the PPE - which was in fact a GHz race, because at that time, IBM did not have a PPU core which could scale to beyond 3GHz. They typically used their older G3 variant (e.g. in the Nintento's console) but this wasn't scalable to were Sony wanted it to be. So, that team developed a core running at 3.2GHz. There comes MS, with a bag of money, and IBM sold that design to MS. Because they did not own the SPUs, they simply made it a triple core PPU version.

[mkis007]

Well ms could have a custom vega. Who knows.

[OB1Biker]

I love this tweet the media has been running with:
'Multiple insiders have now confirmed it’s true Xbox “Anaconda” will be more advanced as rumored.'
If you read carefully it just says RUMOUR CONFIRMED haha
They basically confirm their own rumour is a rumour.

[Ju]

And yet, nobody knows what "more advanced" really means. What does it mean? Its funny how all those appear a day after we hear a thing or two after the PS5 rumors. With pretty much no evidence what so ever.

[OB1Biker]

@Ju
Indeed!
Whats even funnier is everyone is going by the devkits at best. The chips are nt even built yet.
Let alone the consoles 'advanced' or not

[Stanjara]

Nope!

[pyroxxx]

That would be Micosoft MO,.. but no Both will have customised chips,..

[Zeke68]

But what fact or even rumour say both consoles will have the same basechip?
Apart from lazy writers on internet who use the catchy "next gen consoles will use both Navi and Ryzen" without a shred of proof.
Just the fact that Lisa Shu or whatever the AMD Ceo name is, is talking proudly about Sonys new console seem to be evidence that Sonys design has been worked extra hard with by both AMD and Sony. Why would she choose side if she didn't know that this is an Sony exclusive product?

[CptDville]

Wouldnt you talk proudly about any product that used your cutting edge technology that will generate revenue and renoun for years to come? It's kinda a must for any CEO.
Problem is, microsoft still owns a considerable share of the market, don't think they would give them something lower end just to get a company they do not own a better hardware and sale.
They get money from both and money doesn't take outrage (unless Nvidia may now be coming under MS Xbox hood and therefore there is no announcement from MS and AMD in this sense?)

[Zeke68]

Yeah around the same time i first heard about Navi could be Sony exclusive i remember reading a similar about M$ using an Intel nVidia combo. I thought the jump to Intel seemed sketchy, but maybe the nvidia part turn out to be true. We'll see.

[HighPlayer28]

She said the same secret sauce pr line about Microsoft next gen Xbox. It has nothing to do with favoritism she is just proud and excited about her work with both companies.

[skiggy34]

There is probably a non disclosure clause in place for MS. Remember, back before PS4 and Xbox One were released, Sony was only putting 4g of RAM in their machine. 4g of DDR3. Then somehow they found out MS was doing 8 so they waited and upgrade to 8g GDDR5. Look it up its everywhere. So MS may have an ND in place that says AMD cant say a peep. Plus MS may be designing their own style chip with AMD but Sony may have relied soley on AMD to build theirs..

[Ju]

She doesn't choose sides. Sony is in the news, information has been confirmed. She simply cannot talk about what MS is doing without breaking any NDA. And I am pretty sure this is somewhat coordinated with Sony what and when you can say something.

[cd1]

@skiggy34

Sony must have always planned on using GDDR5 in PS4, otherwise they would have also designed some sort of ESRAM solution to make up for lack of bandwidth.

[OB1Biker]

I don't have any tech knowledge but just going by the fact and common sense:
Incoming pc GPU: Navi 12, Navi 10, Navi 20 (next year)
We know Sony/amd made a custom Navi 10 for ps5
How on earth could Sony secure that Ms doesn't have a custom GPU based on one of the above?
That in mind, the rumour saying Navi was made for the ps5 sounds very misleading. It could be true that Ms doesnt use Navi for Xbox but there's nothing preventing it

[Zeke68]

OB1
Source for confirmed Navi 10 on PS5? , just curious as I thought I read all both news and rumours about it but this I can't remember.
I know that "leak" speculated that 10 meant clockspeed but they admit they don't know for sure. Any new fresh info last week that I missed?

[OB1Biker]

There are so many 'sources" talking about Navi 10 for PS5. It's just common sense though. Navi 12 is not powerful enough with only 40 compute units. Navi 10 is 48 to 56 CU. If it's 56 CU that would match perfectly with the many leaks mentioning nearly 13TF.
Navi 20 is for high end pc, coming a year later and much more expensive. Price near the price of a console.
It's also been said that Ray Tracing built in hardware by Sony and AMD is the reason why they talk about Sony involvement. That maybe exclusive feature I think and what they call special sauce.

Sorry I just sumarize what I found around the net but that would be too many links and of course with buckets of salt :)

[Zeke68]

No problem, thanks for taking time to answer 🤘

[jznrpg]

It doesn’t matter really. Sony will make great games , make new IPs and expand their studios that are already very successful . We are still waiting for E3 number 6 to see what MS is going to do

[Zeke68]

100% true. I totally agree. Sony is fine as consolemarketleader together with Nintendo, M$ has pretty much just been trying to copy them since day one and claiming they invented everything first.
Sad for Xbox owners who just get the most expensive console over and over but least support with great games and so on. I'm still astounded over that fact, year after year.

[skiggy34]

MOST INACCURATE COMMENT ON THIS ARTICLE ABOVE
Your drunk as fuck dude. I too like Sony but "MS trying to copy them since day 1?" Bro MS leads both Nintendo and Sony in tech every gen. Go back to when old xbox released in 2001. Hard drive, Ethernet port, xbox live, online gaming. Who copied who???? MS came out with Xbox achievements then Sony copied with Trophies. Bro learn your gaming history before you dumb comment..

[MajorLazer]

I feel sad for you. So bitter about a console/company that doesn't even know you

[Zeke68]

How am i consolefanboy? I bought PS1, PS1 slim, PS2, PS2 slim, PS3 PHAT aaaand a PS4 😉,PSVita, PSVR and PS4 Pro.
Because I'm a fanboy?
No!
Because my lifesituation allows me to play 8-10 hours a day apart from weekends and holidays. Those are family first of course!
I made a choise based on fun, hardware, games, newthinking and so on from Sony. With all respect for Nintendo, thats not my cup of tea so to speak. The few that have one that we know are for the kids.
M$, well nothing I feel i miss out on my Playstation and shelling out another 500euro just to collect dust, have you seen how many great games I can buy on the PS4 sales?
I prioritize (hope that's the right spelling haha) to go all PS and I'm happy about that. Simple as that. 😁
Defending my interests from troll reviews and clickbait articles and forumposts, that's just how I am because I hate this "see me/click me culture" thriving at the moment with at least 50% easily spot lies and falseclickbait propaganda. I'm just trying to shot down a few lies and do my part for a better Internetsituation.
I see people who defend M$ lies as fanboys, I see people who think every Nintendo Mario/Zelda number 57 is 10 ml 10 as fanboys as much much as people claiming GT Sport i more fun than Driveclub. (I miss you Evolution Studios!)

So, once again, what exactly make me a fanboy and not just a hardcore fan for great Sony games /experiences?
Take your time. 🍺
If just trying to troll...
Bridge that way ➡️

[Zeke68]

Comment above was for Shaggy, as 50yr I type too slow haha.

Skiggy / Major
So just because i think otherwise in this article, my GUESS opposite of your GUESS is void because you don't agree? You must be american or something, freedoom of speech - IF you think like us.
No thanks, I think for myself.

[meep316]

No they can’t, maybe they can have a special variant of it but no.

[FanboysKiller]

No.

[rlow1]

Navi was on the road map ages ago, The base tech will be AMDs tech. Any variant will be the special sauce that each company throws into the mix. They did that this at the beginning of this generation as well. people forget that Ms put in 2 billion of their money to AMD. So whatever chips are in there I think that both companies will go big. The Market has grown tremendously and broader in the last five years and the money spent by both companies will be worth it.

[HighPlayer28]

AMD would breach their contract if they ever gave Sony exclusive chips and would lose out on millions with Microsoft.

[FITSniper]

Both the PS4 and XB1 had custom "exclusive" elements to their GCN GPUs and CPUs. The same will be the case for next gen.

[skiggy34]

Hardware exclusivity in consoles is not real. I doubt this would happen. I can't wait for the new PS5 but I also still think the Xbox Anaconda will trump the PS5 in power. I think they will both run games 4k 60 with high to ultra settings and the deciding factor of the 2 will be games. Sony has a great track record but while I read the tweets in this article of people ripping on Xbox for no games I laugh because if people dont this Phil Spencer took a lot of sh1t this gen for the lackluster games then I dont know what to tell you. Xbox is probably going to acquire Crytek and if that is true they have a serious portfolio of 1st party game devs. MS will have great exclusives next gen......

[Ju]

Crytek is almost broke (again?). They need an investor or its game over

[Jayszen]

I suspect that Sony will have a variant which will have been 'loaded' up with enhancements by Sony or Sony working with AMD. The best MS can then do is to have a basic version from AMD and then do either the same as Sony or find another manufacturer. I don't think AMD would give chip exclusivity to any company as it sets a bad precedent and gamers would end up paying the price!

[Bytor]

Didn't Microsoft steal the design of the 360 chipset from Sony who says they won't do it again

[GamerHeaven]

Yes they copied the cell processor layout. It was proven they used 60% in their Xenon Processors and Intel had to stop making them and microsoft paid them for the damages outside trial as I remember it.
Sony, IBM and Intel made the cellchip but Sony owns the patent. Intel couldn't sell it to microsoft.

[jivah]

Tf? Intel? Intel had no part in it. It was the STI alliance. Sony, Toshiba, IBM. What fud are you throwing around

[GamerHeaven]

Mixed up intel and toshiba. Feeling better now?

[Xavi4K]

no AMD aren't crazy to sign such deal

[Dragonopolis]

Why is this so hard to understand for what isn't that hard of a concept. Modular design in computer chips isn't a new concept actual been around awhile.

Think of the core or main aspect of the CPU as a person. Everything else is like clothes. Generally clothes have purpose. For instance a person could function without clothes but would be severely limited in what they could do. In other words I don't think anyone would want to play American contact football naked because the risk of injury will increase significantly. Could a person function without football clothes and gear yes but it's not going to happen because a person playing football needs a "custom" set to fully function in a game.

Now let's change the circumstances let's say that football player wants to parachute out of a plane in football gear. That football player needs an important piece of gear to succeed and that is a parachute. So for that specific circumstance, a parachute was added to the core of this person/player. Now the football player could wear the parachute all the time while playing football and in practice but why carry a parachute, a bulky item, all around for a one time custom experience of parachuting out of a plane. That person wouldn't and instead add or take away clothes and gear that is or isn't neccessary.

Now that person (the core of a cpu in this analogy) could decide to parachute naked if he or she chooses but when jumping out of a plane the person isn't completely naked because in order to successfully jump from a plane that person still needs to have a parachute to wear in order to live another day.

Hopefully this example makes it easy for the less technical minded individuals who can't grasp the technical jargon as to why article is a bit ridiculous.

Both AMD and Microsoft can use the same core and the add/wrap whatever they need around the same core to achieve whatever they want to achieve.

And yes sometimes manufactures add to a core something that may not be used that often by developers but that's ok because it's a feature that others may not have. It could make the chips run less efficiently than other similar cores and it could increase the cost. However while the majority might gripe about the cost of a feature that isn't used by the majority; the minority of people that do use the feature will appreciate the added feature because it isn't found on other CPUs or runs as effectively.

So nobody is blocking anyone and the world hasn't come to the end (not yet anyway).

[Pyrofire95]

Why would they want to. It's a competitive market but the companies are generally pretty friendly with each other. Also having generally similar hardware is a benefit to everyone because porting theoretically wouldn't be as much work.

[Tazzy]

Why would they secure it id PS5 is launching next year the console is in deep development.

[Ju]

If it's releasing next year. Kaz said the same thing ;)

It's most likely sourcing parts and planning 7nm production runs which causes it. And more testing and giving game developers more time to really show how a PS5 can shine

[Tazzy]

I think they'll talk about it at e3 and steal the show with the announcement of PS5 I'd be shocked if PS5 isn't announced.

[Glak18]

Hopefully this is the generation consoles finally hit that magical 60 fps for all games as a standard. It will feel like 2005 all over again.

[Thundercat77]

And why would that needs to be exclusive? The whole console architecture is what makes the difference, not a single piece of that architecture.

[Miacosa]

No, AMD is basically supplying the same parts to both with a few minor tweaks given to them by MS and Sony respectively.