Remedy: Perfecting That 30-Second Loop as Halo Did Doesn't Cut It Anymore, There Have to Be Layers

Control's director at Remedy said that simply perfecting a 30-second gameplay loop as Halo did in the ’00s doesn't cut it in today's games. There have to be additional layers to make a deeper experience.

[Imp0ssibl3]

True. Don't know if 343 has the skills to add what's missing though...

[Chris_Wray]

I wouldn't completely agree. There are games that can survive on a core loop, but I would say that the way to get recognised futher is with layers, deeper gameplay and a strong narrative.

[itBourne]

I mean, I would even go as far to say developers are forgetting about the core loop, and focusing too much on the frivolous. The core is an after thought more and more often these days.

[Tapani]

Exactly! I think it is actually much harder to create that 30 second loop than a game with elements that are , based on research, liked by everyone (= accessible action with light rpg elements to keep people on the hook.) Halo 1 was exceptional because the development team perfected the loop of that generation. I think Dark Souls is the next game that did it again after that in another genre. So it is no wonder there are six Soulsborne games done with the same system, just as there are multiple games in Halo series using variants of the original gameplay loop.

I think Remedy is giving excuses just because they have finally added some layers, not because they perfected the 30 second loop. However, that being said, I also think Control will be magnificent.

[Cybermario]

agreed, Halo lost its magic when Bungie left. 343 is not capable to make Halo great again.

[SephirothX21]

They need to make Halo great again. They need to build a wall and have the Covenant pay for it.

[Kingthrash360]

Win^

[Vasto]

Yep, it lost its magic alright.

https://twitter.com/PMS_Jor...

https://store.steampowered....

Halo is still miles above anything else.

[capjacksparrow]

Aren't the games in the Master Chief Collection originally made by Bungie? And is that a poll from a PMS gamer person? Most of their followers are usually Xbox peeps. Kinda a poor choice for references, but okay. Your points against the original poster aren't that great, I'm not saying whether they're wrong, but you should definitely use better sources to prove your point.

[Vasto]

You can put how ever much spin on you want to.

Like I said, 1 more month. See you at E3!

You all know who sites on the Iron Throne.

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[SamPao]

The last of us sold more than any halo game though

[Dark_Knightmare2]

Lol good one. I freaking love halo both for its campaign and mp but sorry to say ever since bungie left and 343 took over the games haven’t been great

[JesusBuiltmyHotrod]

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA..you must be a massive xbox fan with narrow tastes.

[CorndogBurglar]

Uh.......The Master Chief Collection consists of games made by Bungie. Not 343.

It isn't "spin". The guy said Halo lost its magic after Bungie left and you used games made by Bungie to prove him wrong? Yeah. That makes sense.

Also, Halo Infinite hasn't released yet. No one knows what it will be like.

[gamer7804]

I'm not so sure, I'd take the recent halo's over the recent destiny's any day. The proof will be when halo infinite comes out.

[Rude-ro]

Which is sounding like a destiny clone.
We shall see.

[Concertoine]

@Rude-ro

I’ve heard nothing to suggest Infinite is a Destiny clone. I dont think weve seen hardly anything at all outside of the trailer.

I think after Anthem and the fizzling out of Destiny 1 & 2 MS wouldnt hedge their bets on a Destiny clone. That would be the nail in Halo’s coffin.

[Sciurus_vulgaris]

Funny thing is, if my memory serves me currently, Destiny received a lot more gameplay related criticism than Halo 4 & 5.

[jznrpg]

More people played Destiny so I would assume it would get critiqued more.

[CorndogBurglar]

I actually remember the gameplay being the only thing that the majority of people agreed was phenomenal.

It was all the other stuff that people complained about: lack of content, too much grind, expensive DLC's... But honestly most people can agree that Destiny is at the very least very fun to play with great, solid mechanics.

[Hardiman]

I loved Halo 1 & 2(except for 2's cliffhanger) but I did not care for 3! Reach was awesome but 3 just didn't stack up for me.

[chiefJohn117]

Disagree, 343 did an excellent job with making the story more emotional. Touching on Cortana and Chiefs characters were something Bungie never did.

[mandingo]

Weird because halo 5 was great. Nothing close to halo1-3 however

[Dark_Knightmare2]

No it wasn’t halo needs to be a complete package and while 5 had great mp the campaign was absolutely crap

[deno]

I disagree a bit. Halo 4 single player was great but online was average. Halo 5 story was bad but online rocked. If they can do both equally then 343 will nail it. Remember a lot of Bungies people stayed on Halo after Bungies jumped ship.

[Sirk7x]

Halo 5's multiplayer is very good. They just need to deliver a better story/campaign, which is tough, as the lore has become incredibly encumbered. Twenty something books, comics, web series, games, etc, all considered canon. Too complicated.

[Pickledpepper]

Yeah bunjie, they really know how to put the magic into a game, take destiny 1+2 for instant lol. You can't give Activision all the credit for them master pieces.

[gamer7804]

yes additional layers like a great setting, character development and story. I really hope control can deliver, but it looks to be all about the gameplay, but I'm not sure they have much to back it up with unfortunately.

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Next halo right here

[Vasto]

Control should not be mentioned with a true masterpiece franchise like Halo.

You all know who really sits on the Iron Throne. 1 more month!

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[Thundercat77]

In the iron thron of your toilet perhaps.

[capjacksparrow]

By what metric though??? xD

Sales? Sony and Nintendo outsell Microsoft consistently.

Games? Sony has had 4 GotY majority nods in the last ten years, Nintendo 2, Microsoft 0. Here is a cumulative list of GotY awards by number since 2003... https://gotypicks.blogspot....

If we're talking last gen, they held it for a year until the Wii launched. The PS3 eventually outsold despite being a year late and $200 higher in price... and it had GotY majority votes for both Uncharted 2 and The Last of Us. Other than that short stint of time, they haven't been at the top of any console gen they've been a part of. The best argument I can make is that the 360 has one of, if not the, highest attach rate of any console. But not the One, that's for sure.

I simply don't understand where people get this stuff from 🤷‍♂️ If you were to say, "I personally prefer MS and their games, they sit on the Iron Throne for me," then that would make perfect sense. But your metrics are whacked, man.

[chiefJohn117]

Huh? 30sec gameplay loop? Lol Halo wouldn't be the king of FPS if it was 30seconds of gameplay rinse and repeat. The thing that made halo great besides it's core mechanics and mission structure was the exact opposite of what they're talking about.

[spicelicka]

Also Halo is designed to be seamless between multiplayer and single player, you can't apply this logic to multiplayer games. The feeling of a headshot is still as satisfying to me now in Halo then it was 10 years ago, it works.

I think the dev is just using it as an example to make a good point for his own game, but people are just stupid in the comments here.

[Rude-ro]

This is literally bungies game design.
You can not argue their fundamental core design.
Perhaps you are not understanding the term and it’s meaning.

[DARK WITNESS]

I get what they are trying to say and ya it sounds good on paper.... but in my humble opinion, most games of even this current gen can't seem to nail down that 30sec loop, let alone come up with something better.

I love Remedy for Max Payn and for at least trying new stuff, but there last few games weren't really all that and hardly managed to make that 30s of fun. so maybe they should prove their own formula is actually up to the task before saying Halo's don't cut it anymore.

[meep316]

Halo devs talked about the 30 second game loop, but there is much more to the games than that. The actually decent ai of the early games, the vehicles, the different guns, enemy variety, weapon variety, the interesting level designs of the earlier games etc.

But at the core yes, you need to nail the core gameplay.

[DeadManMMX]

There is nothing wrong with the core gameplay of Halo. Halo 5 is pretty much pitch perfect multiplayer. The reason Halo doesn't have the pull it used to is simply Modern Warfare. Casuals who played Halo before because it was the best available multiplayer despite disliking the sci fi aesthetic jumped over to COD once modern warfare came out. The grounded more reality based atmosphere was a lot more mainstream then Halo's sci fi one. This has been proven time and time again. It's also the reason Titanfall wasn't more successful (well that and 2's launch window). In fact the literal jumping of the shark moment for COD was when they went all the way into the future with COD: Infinite Warfare which was actually an awesome single player sci fi based campaign. The more COD became like Halo aesthetically the less popular it became to the point that the next game went all the way back to WW2. The lesson is clear casual audience prefer grounded weapons and combat over sci fi ones.

[spicelicka]

I partially agree with you, but I don't think it has anything to do with aesthetics. Overwatch and Fortnite are the biggest most recent multiplayer franchises and they're not grounded in reality by any means.

The reason COD overtook Halo was because of the progression system that provided easy rewards and toned down skill for perks. In games like Halo the focus is a lot on skill, everyone starts with the same weapons, in order to get better you had to increase your skill level which provided you with a significant rewarding feeling that made the game addictive. What COD did was give you game changing rewards frequently, which meant a lot less time was needed honing your skills because you could instead just complete challenges and gain perks, not good with the AK? Try getting 10 kills with it and you'll get a better scope making it easier for you. This addictiveness was a lot quicker to achieve. In theory it's a better system to get the players engaged fast and keep them engaged, but it's quite a bastardized system that doesn't value skill as much.

Your example about COD jumping ship to try to be more sci-fi and people preferring grounded weapons is correct, however it only applies to COD. It's not because people in general prefer grounded weapons, that was just a backlash from the COD community for trying to change genres. Any community that grows up with a certain style of game will be resistant if their favourite game just switches genres and doesn't do a good job at it. It's not like sci-fi games are any less popular.

The way I have seen the industry change, Halo became less popular because it values skill-based arena style gameplay that rewards players on the merit of the abilities, which people simply don't have the patience for. It's the same reason Gears of war is so hard for the new players to adapt to. What people want is a quick reward to be handed to them at every step, like a dog being given treats (and I don't mean to be offensive here I'm giving an actual example). This is why Halo 5 cleverly introduced the frequent reward system via REQ packs and tried to keep it contained within one game mode to not push out the traditional Halo community. Now the industry is changing again towards because of battle royale games, and I haven't play enough of them to provide a better analysis, but I know it's changing again because COD is also getting less popular.

[Rude-ro]

Ehhh
Feel how you want about destiny..
But destiny held strong with an average of 1 million daily players for years.
Halo had its pull, but was only on Xbox.
Cod, destiny, etc were on all platforms and therefore their numbers were heavier and not so much focused with grounded gameplay.
There were just no options like halo anywhere else but once there was.. it created a hell of a fan base.

Yes, there are players that prefer grounded.. but is that due to the offerings at the time.
Like for me, it was cod:mw and battlefield until destiny launched.
Then for 4 years, it was destiny.

[TheHan]

People may be upset about Halo but 343 has done a wonderful job with the series. Their can be so many ways to create a Halo game and still create the Core FPS experience. Like Halo Wars for instance it’s a RTS much different than your normal Halo FPS but it tells a different part of the same story in a different but amazing and fun way. They can even think of creating a Halo RPG. That would be badass just imagine traveling through space and going into all these amazing huge wars between the covenant, Forerunners, Flood etc. The story is rich for a video game same as a few others that comes to mind like StarCraft and WarHammer. 343 has done more for Halo than Bungie has with Halos 1-3, Reach and ODST, To me Halo 3 is the worst in the series. Loved every single other Halo that’s came out, just saying 343 industries has more than proven themselves and they always test and push themselves with every Halo sense. I’ve read a few books, watched all the shows/movies and bought and Played every single game that’s released. But as a fan I support them and love what they have done with the series despite the let downs mainly with Local Co-op.

[Captain_J_Sheridan]

Remedy is always trying to make their games deeper while never making it better. Then we get shallow pretentious stuff like Alan Wake that's all style and no substance

[JesusBuiltmyHotrod]

Standards change yes..but there are games that buck this trend, a lot of Indies.

[ShinRon]

the loop works, it doesnt have to be 30 seconds tho