How can we be gamers in an industry that is hurting its developers?

We need to support the people making games while also being critical of the practices they work under

[SirBillyBones]

How can we be gamers in an industry where publishers hurt both their developers and their customers.

[Skull521]

Sounds like liberal entitlement culture to me. If you don’t like your employer go work somewhere else. If you don’t have pride in the team you work with and what you are doing and you live in the mindset that the world revolves around you, you are the problem, and you are somewhere you don’t belong.

[Fist4achin]

While your statement might have some truth, a lot of executives shifted to the gaming industry because many AAA games have bigger productions and profits than any other entertainment/media. This in turn attracted those only interested in maximizing the profit and the cutting out of everything else. Thats partially why you see these moves such as microtransactions, paid dlc, rushed bug filled games, crappy sequels that will still move lots of games bc of the previous games popularity, etc...

[paintedgamer1984]

Wow skull, for once i agree with you...

[roadkillers]

I agree as well. My employer is amazing and if they asked me to work overtime I would. If they asked me to work 80-hour weeks, I would be annoyed, but give it my best. No way in hell would I work 100-hour weeks unless I had no other priorities.

Most of the world does not live in a conmunist country, we choose who we work for. If working at Rockstar was that bad, especially this day of age, we would know about it. I do not believe Rockstar treats their employees badly.

With that said , our economy in the US is booming. There are so many jobs, especially for Software engineers. Game development does not pay as much as other Software positions. The people who do not want to work that many hours could easily find another position. Easily, especially if you are talented enough to work at a company that has released Game of the Year after Game of the Year.

[RizBiz]

What does entitlement have to do with liberalism? o_O

[Princess_Pilfer]

Do you know how many qualified game devs I know who can't get jobs in the industry and end up working menial crap like IT? Are you aware that spending that huge amount of time working makes it near impossible to spend time trying to find another job? Are you aware that quitting so they have time to look for another job means they don't get unemployment and have to rely entirely on savings (which 75% of americans have precisely 0 dollars in savings and so have no way to support themselves.) The fact is many people *don't* have the option to "just go work somewhere else" and even if they did, this is a wide spread problem in the game industry, and frankly many other "project based" industries, most of which are tech based and the sort of thing a game dev might be qualified to do even if they did leave, meaning there is a decent chance that the mythical game dev who can afford to just quit and survive long enough to find a new job may well end up right back in the same sorts of conditions.

The world isn't your anyrandian fantasy land, reality doesn't let people just switch jobs at a whim to escape horrible working conditions. Further, it has *nothing* to do with pride in ones work and everything to do with 40+ hour weeks having *measurable negative and long term health consequences* not to mention the stress it puts on peoples families.

[bluefox755]

@paintedgamer1984 Same, couldn't believe it, lol.

[steven83r]

@Princess_Pilfer There is always time to find a new job. This isn't the 90s where you go door to door. You post your resume and wait. Also go online and apply for everything that looks like something you may like. Your friends chose that field. Art is crap as a career. Someone younger will always take the job for less pay leaving you jobless. Maybe your friends can't get work because their portfolio sucks. You mention spending that huge amount of time, but that 100 hour week was possibly an exaggeration. So let's assume 60 hours. That is normal for most people and leaves you plenty of time. Also at those hours and good hourly you are possibly making more than 50% of the US. Probably close to $75k. The Art/Tech game works like this, You want to be paid well and work less you have to be the best. You have to constantly work on your portfolio. On your days off you are still polishing your skills and learning new tools and programs. No different than the overpaid idiots complaining in Silicon Valley making $100k to $400k saying it's tough and hours are long. You know who doesn't complain? The person working 2 - 3 jobs at minimum wage working 80 hours to make $40k before taxes.

[Skull521]

I don’t think it’s a big deal to work a couple weeks on overtime to finish up a project you’ve been working on for seven years.

[bellome]

@princess_pilfer

You speak for the truth.

People who have children to raise or loans to pay can’t resposably quit a job before finding a new one. There are exceptions but that’s how it works in the real world for the most of adult people.

Unless you are rich enough to be indefinately unemployed.

[rainslacker]

@Princess

Before my current job, I was doing contract work at a major AAA developer, and the last month was about 70-80 hours of crunch time each week. I loved my paychecks during this time, and realistically, it's not overly hard work to program, although it can wear on the body during long sessions....but there is plenty of downtime as well.

Knowing that my contract was about to end, and not sure if I'd be hired by the studio since my skills weren't really needed during any pre-production period for the next game, I posted my resume about 4 weeks before we were scheduled to release the game....2 weeks before going gold.

By the end of the day, I had 7 requests for job interviews. By the end of the week, I had 4 offers through first contact interviews on the phone. By the end of the next week, I had accepted a job, which I ended up starting a week after my contract expired....and my contract was even extended by 2 weeks after release.

Now, I do have some highly specialized skills which are very hard to come by in the industry, and at the time I had a portfolio with 2 successful AAA releases, and a likely third about to come, and references out the waazoo, but I was also getting offers and requests for just regular programming jobs, which would have been fine, because I do like it. But the point is, is that I took the time to build my portfolio and prove myself, and if one does that, there really isn't any trouble finding jobs in the industry unless you are just known to not be good at your job.

So, if all your friends are having a hard time finding a job and they don't have any career strikes against them, I can only come to two conclusions,

1. They aren't qualified for the jobs they're applying for.(problem I had right out of school)
2. They aren't working in an area with enough game developers to choose from.(not a problem for me).

There is a massive shortage of qualified help in the game industry, and for the most part, if you've worked at a big studio, and weren't let go for being incompetent, and especially if you've shipped a mid-tier to AAA game, and even more especially if you've shipped 1+ successful AAA games, getting another job is pretty damn easy.

There may be some down times as contracts ending don't always line up with the hiring process, but I find it hard to believe you know a large number of qualified individuals who can't find jobs....and I don't know why you consider IT menial. There is a shortage there too, and they tend to get paid about the same as game developers do, and if they don't, then they either don't know how to negotiate, work in an area which doesn't need them that badly, or are not qualified for the job they actually want.

If your friends are having a hard time finding a job, then they need to figure out the reasons why, because it certainly isn't because there aren't enough jobs out there. But even with the shortages, there is always going to be someone else applying, so your friends need to step it up and prove themselves in some way to those that are potential employers.

@Skull

"I don’t think it’s a big deal to work a couple weeks on overtime to finish up a project you’ve been working on for seven years."

Neither do I. Nor do I feel its that much to ask to work extra in times of need. I would only have a problem with it if it was excessive AND prolonged AND/or frequent, because that can indeed wear you down. Most crunch isn't like that anymore though, although there are still some bad studios out there.

[Princess_Pilfer]

@Rainslacker

Good for you? I'll take the word of my friends over yours, thanks.

Also, shifting from 1 abusive studio that overworks you to a different abusive game studio that overowrks you, which btw has physically measurable negative health effects even when it's work that doesn't involve physical labor) isn't exactly a fix, because most of them pull this for weeks or months at a time.

I consider IT menial because I hear them talk about it. Like 90% of what they do is deal with idiots who don't know to open the task manage and see that the problem is they've maxed out their systems RAM with 32 brower tabs and 9 different pieces of software. not solving any problem that's actually interesting.

[paintedgamer1984]

Fist4achin:

Very true tho ill agree to that. Like i cant wait until another 2 years when Bungie is done with Activision Blizzard 10 year deal.

[zombiewombie]

Also journalists and media

[Princess_Pilfer]

Be a responsible capitalist. Don't buy games with buisness practices (be they consumer or developer facing) that you don't think should continue. That's how it's supposed to work.

[RememberThe357]

That's literally the invisible hand John Smith was talking about. The more you know about the product the more informed a decision you can make about how and what to purchase. One of the reasons free markets have problems and end up going capitalist or socailist is because of the lack of informed consumers. A free market can only function properly if all aspects of a product are known to the consumer.

Skull can cry about liberals all he wants but informed consumers is as conservative as it gets economically. The more we know the less government has to do.

[Dixiedevil]

Can we stop acting like game devs are treated like, I don’t know, let’s say, the people that make the devices that these articles are written with? They’re people that work hard and get paid for that hard work. There’s hundreds of thousands of other people with hundreds of other professions that do the same thing. “Stop whining!” -Arnold

[Smokehouse]

My bleeding heart yearns.. Its up to them, not your fake activism.

[FallenAngel1984]

The same way consumers in any industry continue to consume products that mistreat the people who help produce it

[LemyAtom]

Exactly. People buy from Primark even though they know kids work for pennies in factories.

[ginganinja]

So, we shouldn't care about one group of people getting shit on because another group of people also get shit on ?

[LemyAtom]

@ginganinja no I'm not saying that all. I do not condone it at all. What I meant was people are aware of where things come from but despite that choose to purchase them anyway. People buy Primark clothes despite it being well documented they come from factories that employ kids and unfair work and pay. RDR 2 will probably break sales records, despite people hearing about how awful working conditions are at the company. I would love to think things will change, but most people will just thinking that's terrible" and still consume anyway. We live in a society where everyone expects the next guy to be the good one. Just like with global warming and why the world will continue to heat up to the point we are destroying the earth.

[rainslacker]

Think it's more that we may care, but we also want our cheap clothes, or in this case, the game itself.

I don't see any reason to not play the game in this case though. It doesn't really help the devs one way or the other if people refuse to buy this game because of it, nor would it even make an impact on the industry if it started happening regularly with a great number of people boycotting. If anything, it would mean in the long run, less resources would stop being allocated to games, likely resulting in fewer employees, and those employees having to do more work. R* games are sort of an exception because of how much they sell, but industry wide, a lot of publishers are already looking for ways to invest less, but return more, and paying one month of overtime for half your employees is still cheaper than having 25% more staff to do the work.

[ginganinja]

I know you weren't condoning it and I don't think boycotting the game is worthwhile. But I do think that continually bringing things like this to light and forcing those responsible to explain themselves, will go towards them making changes for the better in how they go about things.

[AspiringProGenji]

Not buying the game hurts the people who put infinite hours into developing this game for 8 years even more. We are just gonna let all of that work go to waste? I'll just play the game and let R* deal with its employee situation. Thank you everyone who put their soul into this, and every game dev ever as well who does this for us

[paintedgamer1984]

Exactly... even so you got to be pretty hard core to skip this game because a few people had unsatisfactory comments out of hundreds of staff lol. Id call their bluff or doubt they are even a gamer but really someone putting their bs oppinion where its not wanted. A game like this only comes along so often and you call yourself a gamer? I doubt that.

[Princess_Pilfer]

You really think that someone who was vocally critical of the company they work for 1: gets to keep their job, and 2: ever gets any other job in the game industry ever again? Please. Rockstar "lifting the social media ban" doesn't actually mean they're letting their employees talk frankly about their working conditions and wether or not they're satisfied with them. Even if they're not fired immediatly because it'd be bad PR, guess who'll find themselves first on the chopping block when the rounds of layoffs come at game completion?

[Princess_Pilfer]

Who cares? It does not matter wether or not they're gamers. *No* consumer product is *ever* worth the health, relationships and general wellbeing of the people who make it. I don't have to be an avid nike wearer or an avid nestle choclate eater to say the ways in which the produce their producsts (out of countrie sweat shops and by buying cocoa from slave owners, respectively) are disgusting and outragous and nobody should buy any of their crap if they can avoid it.

And because it's mosly game devs in the EU and US (both of which are also the primary markets for videogames), unlike those other products, we have *way more* control over the working conditions of the game developers than we do the people nike and nestle exploit in other countries, so there is actually more reason, not less, to take action (even if their exploitation isn't as bad as in the other examples I gave.)

[Princess_Pilfer]

75% of americans live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings. No, people *cannot* just quit. They *don't* have much choice.

[Princess_Pilfer]

You do more long term damage by buying it, because you enable rockstar (and every other dev who does this sort of thing) to keep doing it in perpituity, doing way, way more damage than if some of the specific devs who work there now got laid off because of poor sales.

[paintedgamer1984]

Above, thats totally not what i was saying. Im saying not the employees of rockstar... other people that just want to throw ppl under a bus or scream foul ball that arent even gamers.

[paintedgamer1984]

Lol what are you talking about? They CHOOSE to do these jobs... they CHOOSE to work crazy hours... if its affecting THEIR lives or health to such an extent... theres the door this is America you can quit and find another job. Im a nurse and sometime i work 75-90 hours a week not because i want to but because i love helping people and i LOVE making time in a half or double time. Same goes for me... i can quit! Youre acting like they... dont have a choice... well if they cant quit because of xyz that has nothing to do with the employer but the employee for allowing themselves to be a slave to not having opportunity to change professions... not rockstar... youre acting as if rockstar is holding a gun to their head on a hamster wheel... gtfo with that bs... you are acting like a young child or a young adult that doesnt have much experience in the work force... i served 8 years in the United States Army... go to the military talking this bs and they will laugh you out of the building.

[AK91]

How can we be gamers when game journalists have no idea what makes a good game or have even properly played a game in their life?

[fluxmulder]

These devs are adults. They know what they're getting into when they sign up for these jobs. They don't need you to be outraged on their behalf. And you're literally criticizing something you know nothing about. It's like going into a foreign country and getting angry about the local customs. Who are you to judge?

[Felix_Argyle_Catbro]

Start game. Play.

[Orionsangel]

Are you trying to make us feel guilty?

[jebabcock]

So basically highly paid employees who willingly opt to work for a prestigious company and willingly agree to the work conditions should give us pause on how we spend our money..

Well, I hate to break it to you, but most indie/startups can't afford to pay their employees anything and most are forced to work alternative jobs with only the hope of someday making money.Maybe we should stop supporting the indie/startup arena.

Stepping outside of gaming, there are whole organizations that have people volunteering to do work for absolutely no compensation. We should stamp out volunteer organizations. It isn't fair that people should willingly volunteer to do something and subject themselves to many hours of work.

I feel about as bad for these guys as I feel for people trying to get into the NBA, or actors trying to make it big in the movies. The only real difference is that people working at these game companies have EXTREMELY marketable skills that can easily be applied to a near infinite supply of job opportunities across the globe that all provide income and benefits far above the norm when compared to just about anyone else.

With all the game stories that could be written now, can't we do any better than this?

[rainslacker]

Small indie dev start ups work their asses off to make a good game. I've known guys who would work every waking hour they didn't do a regular job to support themselves. I've watched good friends push themselves so hard their health was hit hard, and by the end of their project you wouldn't even recognize them.

But they did this on their own accord. No one was paying them. No one was supporting them. They had to make their game to make money off it, and they were well aware they may never return their investment, often of their own money. But they do it to make a name for themselves. With the hopes of being recognized. With the hope of making a good game.

And that's how many devs in the big dev houses feel about the product they're making. They may work more. They may work some times where the average person would say, "screw that". But this notion that the studio execs are forcing these devs is greatly misappropriated. Even when crunch was more a problem than it is now, it wasn't usually like that, and the studios where it was, usually didn't maintain staff.

There is very little reason for a dev to stay at a dev house nowadays that abuses them. There is a massive shortage of qualified devs in the industry, and those in the industry know they're expected to get the work done regardless of where they work. Many take pride in their work, and there is usually a sense of pride in the product itself. In good studios, it feels like a team, and usually, there are more people willing to go the extra mile, than those who aren't. There are always some who complain, and of course, always that one curmudgeon. But for all these people, they are more than capable of making their own decisions.

[FPS_D3TH]

Crawl back to your virtue signaling hole you sad attempt at gaming journalism.

[asm120]

The rockstar situation was debunked.

[deafdani]

No, it wasn't. Unless you want to believe the word of Rockstar's management and the word of employees that were "allowed" to speak freely about their time there without any fear of retaliation, which nobody with any common sense would believe.

Look up Kotaku's most recent article about the culture of crunch inside Rockstar Games, and you will see that this situation is far from being debunked. Unless you are one of the many people on this site that hates everything Kotaku does because it's Kotaku.

[rainslacker]

Ah...yet another instance of ignoring anything that goes against people's outrage.

[asm120]

Yeah cuz Kotaku has always been known for their journalistic integrity.

[OpenGL]

I don't know that boycotting the product helps them in any way.

[deafdani]

It really doesn't. Several Rockstar employees, when asked about whether gamers should boycott RDR2 as a gesture of solidarity towards the devs, they basically said hell, no. They worked their asses off on this game, they want people to buy it and enjoy it, they don't want all that effort go to waste. Plus, they get a bonus depending on the sales, so more sales actually help them.

That said, they also stated that one way you can help them is to keep the discussion going. Keep writing these articles about crunch culture, keep making them visible, keep pressuring big game companies on any digital media to take a hard look at their practices. Just the many articles that have appeared regarding Rockstar in last month alone has led to a shakeup at the company, or at least what appears to be the beginning of a shake up. Now more game developers are starting to talk about crunch and shitty job conditions in other gaming companies, so that definitely helps.

Believe it or not, your wallet isn't the only way to vote. You can buy the game, enjoy it without feeling any guilt, and still do your part by keeping the conversation going, keeping the topic popular. Gaming companies (and companies in general) don't like these kind of controversies exploding on their faces.

[rainslacker]

If these developers wanted change, then they should stand up for themselves, and not work those hours.

It's not like R* can just let everyone go, or even a significant number, because it does take time to replace a qualified programmer, engineer, or artist. Even if you replace them quickly, it can take time to get that person up to speed.

There is a serious shortage of qualified labor in the industry, and if these people were let go, they could find a job somewhere else, even if they left because of working conditions. About the only thing that will ruin someone's career is breaking an NDA, because that's more serious than being upset about working conditions.

I don't think people realize just how dire the situation is for qualified staff. This is why there has been this big push to change the idea that it's the kind of industry where you will have to work your ass off for no gain. Why there is a big push to get more women into the industry because that is the only way to get more help quickly.

I have heard of no shake up at the company. If anything, half of the RDR2 staff is going to be let go anyways, because they're contract employees, and their work is probably almost done once the initial bugs are worked out.

Game developers have been talking about crunch for a long time. The discussion has been going on for a while. There are those in the industry who are leading the charge to find better ways to manage projects, and many companies are listening to them. Amy Henning is one such person, and has been the foremost authority on the proper ways to manage a studio, and many studios follow her methods. But these things don't change overnight, and the last thing these qualified individuals who really understand the situation need, is for a bunch of ignorant keyboard warriors adding noise to the discussion that is already going on.

Nothing we say is going to change the industry on this matter, because while we'll sit here and say how bad we feel for the devs, we'll go right into the next article and criticize companies for delays, say how a buggy game is the dev being lazy, and keep buying them because we want the game, and ultimately, don't really care that much about the dev themselves. Posturing with support for these devs on this issue is for us to feel good about ourselves, nothing more, nothing less.

[Hellbound1978]

When they start putting suicide nets outside development studios maybe it'll be worth looking into.

[deafdani]

That's a terrible take.

[Hellbound1978]

My statement was meant to acknowledge the fact that no matter how bad you think you have it you should at least entertain the thought that others have it worse, like people who's job is so bad that suicide nets become needed.

[deafdani]

It's still a bad take. You're basically saying that if we're in a bad situation, we should count our blessings if we can actually think of people being in an even worse situation. It's a flawed logic. Other people having it worse than you doesn't mean you have it good.

[Segata]

lol, what?

[steven83r]

Who gives a damn about the hours they had to work. They were paid for their time. And most making 6 figures. i work 12 hours a day and drive 2 hours to work and back each way and make no where near 6 figures. It's life in America. If they don't like their jobs they can get new ones. CA has labor laws. Maybe the author should think about the workers suffering who made his/her phone and computer used to write this garbage.

[rainslacker]

The average pay of a software engineer is around 80-90K. Artists are around 50-60K. Leads, those with a lot of experience, or those with specialized trades which are hard to come by(like myself) tend to make 6 figures a year, but they make up less than 5% of the total jobs in the industry.

[steven83r]

Only Engineers and Management are usually on Salary. If you're W4 Artist, Tester and so on you are hourly and benefit from the massive overtime. So that starting pay of $50k without OT is now 6 figures. It's life in the US. Other countries work less for better pay. I work in Aerospace. We asked for a raise and our American mentality bosses said "you want more money, work more hours". Love it!

[rainslacker]

For the most part yeah, that's true. I know some contractors that live for overtime, because it means they get a huge bump in pay for a month or two of work, then they'll likely be out of a job after the game ships.

And I think its reasonable to say if you want more money, work more hours. So long as they actually pay you for working more hours.:)

[PaleMoonDeath]

Man, what a wimpy post. Just play games.

[PlayableGamez-]

A lot of products we consume come from worker exploitation.
Welcome to Capitalism.

[paintedgamer1984]

I read this bs and automatically think great, now democrat snowflakes are sticking their noses into my gaming. I could see if it was many people berated and MADE to work 100 hour work weeks with no compensation whatsoever... or hmm how about when they were hired on there wasnt a black and white professional statement of what was required of said employee under certain circumstances upon hiring, but this is not that. There was like a few people out of hundreds that had bad things to say... Wake up! Its a mathematical impossibility to please everyone. These are probably the same people saying HEY! we should sign a pitition to boycot RDR2 because were mad at the thought of the inhumane practices! Just wow 😂 Please Please PLEASE take your BS somewhere else!

[CrimsonWing69]

Um crunch isn’t anything new to the industry and if crunch happens that’s due to bad management. Are you going to boycott driving on a road because workers had to do overtime? Are you familiar with people who work in hospitals? They pull some heavy hours, too.

I’m so sick of this wussified world we live in.

[Sirk7x]

Yeah, I have friends as EMTs and nurses, there are times where they've worked for days straight, sleeping in break rooms on cots or on the floor. Having people die in front of them. It's hard work for sure.

[ElementX]

Why limit it to game developers? Almost every product you buy is made by somebody either underpaid or treated like dirt.

[rainslacker]

I was in Lowes the other day, and I couldn't help but be upset over a customer berating the person working there as if they were idiots, because that employee had the good sense to tell the customer what they were trying to do was not an appropriate way to do something, and that customer was setting themselves up to have a bomb in their utility closet which would possibly kill someone, and certainly destroy the house. Not a maybe situation, but an absolutely would happen within a few days kind of deal. That guy at Lowes knew his stuff, and did the appropriate thing IMO, and did so probably making probably around $11-14/hr.

While I don't think gamers in general are as bad as that, I do often see them blaming devs for releasing buggy games, publishers for having delays, games not living up to expectations, etc.

I find it a bit hypocritical to say that one support devs workplace rights, all while demanding they achieve more than is possible in the time frame given by the publishers. The fact that these devs often work for the benefit of a better product of the consumer is worthy of praise, and even buggy and bad games take an extraordinary amount of work.

Anyhow, to finish my story, and be a bit off topic, with the customer at Lowes I ended up chiming in and letting the customer know explicitly that they were trying to do something that would probably kill them or someone else....as I felt the Lowe's employee was being too polite. What's sad is he took me more seriously, despite him not knowing anything about me. That employee told me afterwards that if the customer insisted, he'd still sell him the product, but to me, that should be illegal, because some people need protecting from themselves, and I always found it stupid to ask for someone's advice, then get mad at them if they don't tell you what you want to hear.

[2pacalypsenow]

Same way we eat fruits and vegetables picked by people making $2 an hour while being exposed to chemicals.

[Kumakai]

stop bitching about every thing and feature you don't get for $60. also stop bitching about micro transactions OR accept that games might have to cost more to get the quality we expect from big AAA games.

part of the whole problem is that a lot of devs/artists/producers etc go on day rates or week rates. the thing is tho... a day is just considered start of work to end of work that day. so a day could be 23 hours but still billed as one day (w/ no overtime). same thing with weeks. a week could be in Rockstar's case 100 hours. these games get bid out in days or weeks like that because its more cost effective on production vs paying an employee hourly (same thing with cg/vfx artists) a day rate of say $500 a day vs an hourly rate with OT that would total around $1300+ a day for the studio (per person on average).

If people were willing to accept that games realistically have to cost more than $60 msrp to achieve the same quality, it would mean that margins and bids could be changed to reduce hours. I live and work in "silicon beach" (playa vista, ca). we have activision, EA, Sony and more here and the local lunchtime conversations are all about this stuff.

[rainslacker]

I've never heard of any dev getting day rates. If you mean salary, then it's common practice for those on salary to get bonus or overtime pay for any time that exceeds a pre-determined amount of time...usually 45-50+ hours depending on the studio.

More than half of devs in the vast majority of developers are contract workers, who more often than not get paid hourly, and receive overtime pay for anything over 40 hours.

The selling price of a game has nothing to do with crunch, or how much it costs to make a game. RDR2 could sell for $10, and still return it's investment by a considerable margin.

[Kumakai]

thats because youre not in the industry and its apparent.

most devs are contractors and freelancers. this allows the core of the studio to be small and inexpensive and able to scale up to meet production needs. almost all of those exclusively do day/week/month rates with exception to staff employees like myself who are usually on a flat salary (no matter how much i work, my paychecks are always the same - and this is very intentional from my studio). some do retainers. some do kill fees too. my friends all work at sony, activision, evolution (formerly) santa monica studio and so on. I also work in cg/vfx and just wrapped up working on COD BO 4. everybody was on week rates because of shorter term contracts. so if you've never heard of that, not sure where you are working, but it isn't any big studio.

you can break your day/week/month rate down to an hourly rate but nobody does that in deal memos. everything is done as larger scale rates and increases are just percentages of those rates.

its easier to bill 45 weeks of work at a week or month rate than say billing total hours worked an hourly rate... nobody does that. NOBODY. that would be almost 3000 hours at whatever rate. plus OT 1.5x hour or if youre really F'd you go into golden time which i believe is 3x your base salary. Studios don't like any of that at all. so they bill in weeks and months. big round numbers. no surprises. like bulk discounts on man hours.

[Sirk7x]

I was having this same thought lol. All employers have labor numbers that they want to hit. Keeping games at $60, and with customers crusading against micro transactions, these companies are going to continue with the crunch culture, so they can consolidate all those labor hours to hit certain numbers and projections.

[EDKICK]

Continue to support and play games that deserve to be supported and played. And there are issues worth being vocal about...

However, anyone boycotting Red Dead 2 thinking there doing anything but hurting the devs they say they care so much about either don't understand the gaming industry or are chasing likes.

[rainslacker]

And us being critical of these practices achieves what exactly? A bunch of noise that gets added to a real discussion that is already being had in the industry?

Lets use an allegory to see why this doesn't work.

Last gen, there was a lot of good discussion in dev circles about representation, sexism, patriarchal viewpoints, etc within the gaming industry and the games that it produced. It was discussed at length on places like Gamasutra, where actual developers and industry professionals congregated to discuss things related to the industry. It was discussed in panels at developer conferences, and usually good discussions came about in open mic answer and question sessions.

Then along came Anita Sarkeesian, and in less than a year, the entire discussion was derailed through a huge influx of people who were neither qualified, or relevant to the discussion adding their voice to the discussion. Since then, Gamasutra has become a joke, and many devs don't bother going there anymore. Publishers are making decisions based on focus groups that don't even involve their customers. And the general feeling of discontent over the issue has divided gamers from developers who wish to create a product that may actually wish to make more representative content.

So, lets say we all start adding our voice to the topic at hand, when that discussion is already being had by the developers it actually affects. When the entire industry is looking at ways to better manage projects to help prevent attrition of the workforce. What happens? The entire discussion gets derailed, because instead of those qualified to discuss the issue without the hyperbolic nonsense that exists within our community, are drowned out, and people who make the decisions either get frustrated that they can't solve the problem because it becomes an issue of pleasing everyone which is impossible, or start becoming more defensive, because people keep attacking them as if they're are evil incarnate.

So, we as gamers, don't have to voice our criticism IMO. These developers don't need your support in that way. These are intelligent professionals who can make their own decisions. They are more than capable of voicing their grievances, and the longer they do that, the more they'll get better working conditions. Nothing we say or do will change that, and it can actually hinder progress. The industry has come a long way in the last ten years to minimize bad working conditions. But change won't happen overnight, and I don't trust people on the internet to be patient or accept anything that isn't an immediate remedy to what they consider to be wrong.

[UNCHARTED2FANATIC]

That's like saying how can we be citizens in a country that hurts its soldiers (because they go to war)

[FloydianAndroid]

The same way we by diamonds from people who chop kids arms off in Sierra Leone, the same way we buy oil from places that harbor terrorists, the same way we buy shoes and clothes from company’s who run underaged sweat shops, etc.

are you people really that hypocritical and naive?
compared to all of the other atrocities, making employees work 100 hours for a few weeks doesn’t seem that bad,

Get off your soapboxes and quit pretending you’re so noble and idealistic.

[nucky64]

so, pcgames doesn't care about the sweatshop labor all over the world that makes all types of products for next to no money at all. no, they're worried about overworked game devs who DO make a nice salary. yea, pcgames has their priorities in order.

[notachance]

as long as you're judged by the products you make, crunch culture will always exist in some form or another...
unless you're working as, for example an administrator or moved up the corporate chain and became a manager, you'll do some kind of crunch, maybe once a month, maybe every other weekend, it's simply often unavoidable.

maybe these snowflakes who wrote the article should try programming sometimes.

[Profchaos]

The negative comments are mostly from ex employees of rockstar maybe they are ex for a reason. There's also lots of current and ex employees with good things to say about then so who do you believe

[Tross]

We can be gamers in this industry because not everyone is interested in the workplace politics involved in the creation of the games we play. Also, even if we were interested, we really don't know what goes on behind closed doors unless it's reaveled to the internet in some way, shape or form. I agree that people should be treated properly on the job, given proper pay, etc., but if you're insinuating that I need to research the workplace politics of each company involved in bringing a game to us before I buy it, I strongly disagree. A game is entertainment, and I'll check it out if I'm interested in the game as a product. I really don't think there should be any obligation on my part as a consumer beyond that.

[Einhander1971]

Corporate suits run the game industry, that’s why it what it is. It won’t change unless so called gamers stop buying shit.

[Garrett_the_GOD]

Get the fuck outta here,these publishers are 100% to blame..they have been shoving microtransactions and lootboxes down our throats for 10+ years now...you cant blame the consumers,we are what keeps this industry alive..if there wasnt millions of us ready and willing to buy these games the day they release these big budget games wouldnt exist...we made that possible

[Silly gameAr]

You can't expect compassion from a consumer base that review bombs a game for going on a discount, or constantly on the attack or angry over something. (though anger is justified sometimes). I think you're barking up wrong tree.

[FITSniper]

Oh shut up. Buy the games or don't. Work in the games industry or don't.

[Psychotica]

More politically correct liberal bs..

[Sirk7x]

How can we buy anything when it comes at the pain of others? I laugh at this. All creations take something from a person. Those same developers choose to go to work every day. They applied for those jobs. If you're a skilled enough worker, you can arrange contracts with an employer. Otherwise you're replaceable. If your boss is trying to force you to work ungodly hours and you have shit management? It's time to quit. A better question is how people support all technology or clothing, when it's made in sweat shops in China. How about oil, at the cost of poisoning the planet? Jewelry, dug by people at the ends of guns in Africa? Oh, processed meats? That comes at the cost of the greatest suffering anyone could ever imagine. Video games are super important though lol.
I'm just saying, work is hard. Physical laborers generally have horrible back problems and other health complications later in life. Imagine being in the military and getting sent to a shithole country. Even in the food industry, you're standing for 12 hours a day in boiling kitchens, burning and cutting yourself, getting yelled at, no vacations, forced holidays lol. Ever work in a pizza place? Standard practice is usually have the least amount of staff possible to run a shift, so most of the time you can't even take a break because you'll be there by yourself if you work opens.

[TheOtherMoon]

Ya'know, I really am not feeling all that terrible about the "work conditions" that have been discussed over the last two weeks. I am a teacher, One brother is a manager for a power/cooling team, another a CPA, and my third brother works in analytic data -- 4 fields that are somewhat different, and I have to tell you: Everyone has crazy work schedules, everyone goes through the crazy crunch, and everyone puts in more hours than they are supposed to -- Game Developers are no exception to the rule.

Despite the crunch, the tough times, the feeling like we are working around the clock, we all find something(s) that we love about our jobs -- if you can't than you need to consider another profession. Before teaching, I was a writer and performer, and guess what: crazy late hours, crazy weekend hours, feeling like 5 weeks wasn't enough time to put up a show or that someones deadline was unrealistic, because they want proofs four weeks before the convention. We all have crazy work schedules or take on some-sort-of crazy within in our work day. The real question is: Do you love what you are doing enough to handle the particular crazy that comes with your profession?

There are little things that we can do, to help the overall environment of gaming and our relationship with developers. We do tend to blow set-backs, delays, and misinformation way out of proportion. Look, there are moments where we should be upset, and: the art of being wise is knowing what to overlook.

[zugdar]

The same reason why people still buy sweatshop Nike shoes and electronic devices at Foxcom. Its all a worthy cause until you're asked to take away something yourself.

[Strafe]

I think we should hold an event for these poor well paid workers, like a Live Aid for devs. I'm sure a lot of people around the world will feel their pain. Maybe a few starving Africans will chip in once they've heard their plight.

[lio_convoy]

As a gamer, I'm interested in the end product, not the drama that came before. They need to police themselves and if you're an employee that doesn't like the work environment, put on your big boy pants and find a job somewhere else. If a company can't keep it's employees then they'll figure it out soon enough or go broke.

[AllMightyFox]

In what Universe does companies like Activision, EA and others who fleece consumers with micro-transactions, buggy releases, main game content in DLC and yet we're blaming workers and not management … I mean, "COME ON!"

This article is propaganda supporting the mistreatment of workers … Look I boycott all wrong practices, if "John/Deb" at EA lost their job over bad Battlefront sales that is not my or their fault, EA decided to put illegal levels of gambling in their game, low level workers don't make those calls.

Nor do regular employees change direction of a game, or bump up release dates or "ANY" of the practices that cause these crazy stupid positions where they need to redo and added on work.

This is such a lame attempt at guilt tripping people into buying something, people will buy what "THEY" choose to buy, and those who try at persuading us to buy for any reason other than our desire is called a scam.

Forget your morals and how this developer used bad practices, "reward them" and yet it's the consumer who is entitled ? "PLEASE"

welcome to 2018, a time when people see the corruption and greed because it has gone too far and yet we get sold how great everything is .. like the NSA spying on American's, Games are developed to be fun only cash cows, and the wealthy lie to us daily on "THEIR" news programs … wake up and call these articles what they are ….

"PAID PEOPLE WHO LIE TO ABOUT PRODUCTS TO SELL US INTO BUYING TRASH AND POORLY MADE GOODS"

I'm curious, when Nike started endorsing Kaepernick did they stop have little girls sew the shoes ?!? (NOPE!)