PS5 And Xbox Scarlett Should Have Dedicated Processors For Ray Tracing In Real Time, Says Dev

David Dedeine: "It seems like it might be revolutionary in terms of late rendering."

[AngainorG7X]

It's too early for that

[fr0sty]

Yeah, the most recent real time raytracing demo I saw was using 4 of Nvidia's ridiculously expensive Tesla GPUs just to hit a decent resolution and frame rate.

[UltraNova]

I've seen tons of raytracing demos. In all honesty this tech is ridiculously power hungry and greatly effective. We'll be lucky if we see this in PS6/xb5.

[darthv72]

It's kind of an old article, but cloud based ray tracing may be a possibility as well...

https://www.extremetech.com...

[Tapani]

Just give everyone an option: 1x $499 SKU or 1x $799 SKU. Same games, different settings. Enough to double the performance to high-range-ish PC. I really don’t want to buy a $399 box that won’t have enough horsepower to fight mid-range PCs for more than a year. I would have to wait for the Pro version for another 3 years. Plus, I want full SSD support. PS4 Pro + SSD is a mandatory for a decent experience, but it doesn’t utilize it fully.

I can pay $1200-$1500 for a full console set (two controllers, SSD/NVME, more expensive Pro version from the start, and a few games to start with.) I want it powerful from the start, or I’ll just buy a PC if it’s crap. Best exclusives come late in the gen anyway, and I’ve been busy as it is with my family and work to play more than a few hours a week.

[BioNeo]

it's not too early, its never too early to start something. we started out with just lines and dots on the screen that barely looked like a game(Magnavox Odyssey). Then when we moved on to 3d and got games like Star Fox, virtua racing etc. Point is we have to start somewhere.

[blackblades]

Wrong!

[Eidolon]

Uhh, duh. He's saying it's too early for a small console to even have feasible dedicated ray tracing processor.

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

It'd have limited use until we get more processing power to dedicate to ray tracing.

[PurpHerbison]

Not ready for another generation where we try to push the envelope on graphics and suffer performance wise. We have PCs if we want crazy graphics. Consoles should always focus on performance first.

[Dabigsiebowski]

Not if AMD has been working on a dedicated chip to help alleviate ray tracing tasks. We are entering the 7nm era with the PS5 and I would not even be surprised if it's possible with 7nm tech.

[Skuletor]

Sounds expensive

[Cmv38]

That's the issue.

[showtimefolks]

Don't know about that both systems do need their own separate ram to run the system. Ps4 having 8gb ram really isn't 8gm when a lot of it is being used by the system itself

Developers should get separate ram and system can have its own 2-4gb

System 4
Developers 16

After launch I am sure developers will be able to use that other 4 to do some stuff besides just operating the system

[blackblades]

Why is it always gamingbolt?

[Sam Fisher]

They need those clicks

[Asuka]

Not if you want a $399 USD box

[oof46]

$401?

[porkChop]

The hardware isn't there for that, so what magical processor are the systems supposed to have? The latest realtime ray tracing demo had, what, $9,000 worth of GPU power? No dedicated processor will allow ray tracing for next gen. Even gen 10 isn't a guarantee for ray tracing.

[SierraGuy]

Cell processor.

[porkChop]

What? Is that a joke?

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

We'll see limited use of ray tracing at first, I think the next couple of years we'll see it used more regularly but not in large amounts per game.

[stuckNhere4Good]

I don’t think he meant it as a joke; but if he did, he’s right either way -- CELL is a “magical processor”... https://image.slidesharecdn... , https://image.slidesharecdn... , https://image.slidesharecdn...

IBM’s Barry Minor got a number of them to work their magic back in days (the video descriptions give more details https://www.youtube.com/wat... , https://www.youtube.com/wat... , https://www.youtube.com/wat... ), so it’s entirely possible for a Multi-core CELL… http://techon.nikkeibp.co.j... to unburden the GPU in whole or in part by offloading… https://image.slidesharecdn... realtime raytracing onto its multitude of SPUs.

The UE4 Star Wars and Northlight demos used a combination of raytracing + rasterization. A SPU + GPU hybrid realtime rendering system would certainly work for that combo.

[porkChop]

A Cell with enough power and SPUs/threads to pull off realtime ray tracing would not be possible in a $400 console. Next gen is making the jump to the 4K standard, which will need beefy GPUs. And due to the bottlenecks this gen, next gen will need significantly more powerful CPUs.

So, again, realtime ray tracing isn't happening next gen. This isn't like with software where you can do some coding magic to fake effects. Realtime ray tracing isn't even close to feasible on PC. How are $400 consoles going to pull it off? That doesn't make sense to me.

[porkChop]

On top of that the Cell isn't x86, and was deemed too difficult to code for by many devs. They'd be better off trying to create a new, custom solution. But even then, in a $400 console they don't have the extra funds to make that possible.

[SierraGuy]

I really didn't. Imagine that though.

AMD and Nvidia cards are expensive and by the time those gpus can handle these types of effects I'll be old.

The tech is out there. And it's cheap and efficient.

[stuckNhere4Good]

In a $400 console?... Maybe not. In a $500 console?... Sure. I get that everyone is hoping for a $400 PS5, but I have a hunch it will cost $500 -- a Multi-core CELL or none.

PD once used four PS3s to run GT5 in 4K at 60fps. That demo was both a showing of what a Multi-chip 'Quad CELL'... https://image.slidesharecdn... (4 PPEs + 32 SPEs) and beefier GPU could do ( https://www.gtplanet.net/gr... , https://www.eurogamer.net/a... , https://www.youtube.com/wat... ), and what a worthy successor to PS3 would've been capable of... https://tech.nikkeibp.co.jp...

A Multi-core CELL (with say... 16 PPEs + 128 SPEs) paired with an 8 TFLOP GPU (Cerny thinks at least 8 is needed for native 4K) would easily meet the 4K standard. 128 SPEs (~3.276 TFLOPS) would be the icing on a 16 PPE/8 TFLOP GPU cake. Ray tracing and whatever else can run wide across them, while the GPU handles rasterization.

CELL ray tracing isn't GPU ray tracing (have another look at the CELL vs. G80 performance metrics slide). Per IBM, a GPU may have the same FLOPS count as a CELL, but that CELL will perform ray tracing 4-5x faster than that GPU ... You do the math. Realtime ray tracing + rasterization techniques would absolutely be possible on a Multi-core CELL-based PS5.

CELL not being x86 isn't an issue. Ken Kutaragi told Goto Hiroshige (here's the source article... https://pc.watch.impress.co... here's a human translated summary of the source... https://forum.beyond3d.com/... ) that although CELL is a big endian processor, it can translate little endian (the byte order used by x86 and MIPS) data into big endian (the byte order used by PowerPC) data through its load/stores. In other words, CELL can emulate PS4's x86 CPU (and PS/PS2 MIPS CPUs); so backwards compatibility with PS4 wouldn't be a problem.

On the development front, Clang/LLVM (C/C++ compiler... https://www.phoronix.com/sc... , https://www.phoronix.com/sc... ) and PSSL ... https://static1.gamespot.co... , https://static1.gamespot.co... , https://static1.gamespot.co... are primed for C/C++ on CELL... https://image.slidesharecdn... These two things alone would make development on a CELL-based PS5 a breeze.

[Wikkid666]

$399 will be the target price.... so they aren't going to be as power full as people think.

[paintedgamer1984]

I hope the ps5 is at least 499 and packs a punch... i dont want a ps5pro 3 years later. In 2020 give me near 4k 60!

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

This is why I don't expect 4k 60fps,something a little below that figure between 30fps and 60fps.

[SierraGuy]

$399 price point is good for the wallet...but not much else.

[Dabigsiebowski]

Don't be surprised to see 450 honestly. I don't mind paying a bit extra for a couple more years of worthwhile tech.

[paintedgamer1984]

Oh gamingbolt 🙄

We would be lucky if ray tracing even happened on the ps6 with 8k 120 fps...

[jc12]

At the very least, they should have a dedicated processor for gaming only...There should be a back up dual or quad core processor dedicated to the OS.

As someone below has also stated, the same should go for RAM.

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

We're already using 8 core processors, games don't use all of that so there should be enough leftover for the os in the background.

[jc12]

A cheap little dedicated dual core would be perfect for the PS5 OS...that would free 8 cores for game development throughout the PS5's life cycle. As we progress into the 2020's, consoles will begin using multi core CPU more and more efficiently.

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

They won't, that's unnecessary cost they'll pass onto the consumer, you can safely assuming they have at least 4 cores available to either the OS or games. It's still rare to use a game use more than 4 cores, they're the exception, not the rule. Hopefully games will start making use of 6 and 8 cores but in the end, you still have plenty of processing power left over on one chip.

[jc12]

We're not talking about what developers can do with 8 core cpu's right now, we're talking about what they could do with a dedicated 6-8 core processors in 2023 or 2024 - this is about future proofing as much as humanly possible. But, none of you seem to be able to look past this or next year.

Look at this generation, cpus have been terribly under powered and three years into the console's life cycles, we needed refreshes. Why not build an architecture that leaves plenty of head room for developers to push boundaries well into the future so that by 2021, we're not desperately crying about our under powered rigs.

Its hard to believe a relatively cheap dual core processor for the OS would drive up costs beyond a reasonable level. Either way, Im sure Sony will go with some sort of APU configuration and I guess it doesn't really matter what I think, because in the end I'm just some Joe Schmoe with an opinion - just like everyone else on this message board.

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

@Jc12,

We are talking about what they can do in the future, they're not making full use of 6/8 core processors as it is now. Having a diploma in IT and having a strong interest in tech, I can easily see where we're heading in the next few years and things are going to get very heated and interesting. We're going to have a CPU war between Intel and AMD (more cores/threads, higher frequencies, better prices?, ect), RAM and SSDs will probably drop in price, AMD/Nvidia will both release new GPUS, the arrival of decent HDR monitors, high refresh rate 4k monitors, lots of good, interesting things to look forward to.

We can only imagine what they can do in the next 5 years game-wise (it's the GPU that gets taxed more in video games, not the CPU), 8 cores is pretty future proof. Any modern CPU will give you more than acceptable frame rates regardless of the GPU you choose.

Otherwise we could just shove another 2 or 4 cores onto the chip instead of making another socket on the motherboard and adding another CPU which is going to cost an extra $50 to $100 at least (I still think it'll be more than that counting the motherboard and CPU together). Video game consoles are price sensitive and a budget oriented way to get into gaming, any console maker with half a brain will not exceed the magic figure.

It's pretty much confirmed Sony will go with an APU again, would have liked a dedicated GPU as well as a CPU but I'm sure it'll be leaps and bounds above the PS4/Xone.

Nothing wrong with opinions, but sometimes it's obvious which direction we're heading.

[jc12]

@ Final

While it is true consoles are generally more GPU intensive, its also true that next gen games are not going to make great leaps and bounds in terms of pure visuals (it will likely be more incremental). Of course, games will look better, particularly once we get into year three and four of the generation, but I really think the largest gains can and will be seen on the cpu-dependent front this go around.

Cpu's this generation are grossly under powered, as a result, AI and environmental dynamism have suffered. I really think with a dedicated 6-8 core processor, we could and would see major gains in AI, physics, and environmental interactivity/dynamism which would take game to a whole new level.

[riibhu]

60 fps...that's it. Anything else is just an addon but 60 fps should be a must for next gen.
Although this ray tracing wont' be seen on consoles until next next gen, even the guys who showed the demo told us it was next next gen tech.

[combatcash]

60 FPS is always an option it all depends on how much the developer wants to compromise in regards to graphics. Just give people the option and I think that will be fine. I think Forza Horizon will have that option. Honestly I think people would rather opt in for better visuals than frame rate.

[MrSec84]

The developer is just talking about Casting, not Ray Tracing, most likely Navi will have more features built into that generation of Compute Units, like a part of the overall CU make up will be for Casting to reduce load on other computing hardware within the GPU.

Casting is way less demanding, but lighting should improve a lot.

This dev seems to be talking more about VR utilisation than really high Resolutions like 4K or higher.
I wouldn't be surprised to see better tech for checkerboard or Temporal Reprojection techniques, using better Casting tech and better scaling should vastly improve visuals in general over current gen.
Would be good to see 4K native images, with way improved lighting.

[BadElf]

That a bunch of pig latin to me.
They should also just let us buy a Game...put it in the disc drive...play the game.

Not wait around like some shmuck ...

[Evan_Beezy]

I’m willing to pay $600 for a real next gen box

[ibrake4naps]

and a button you push on the console to make my controller beep, so I can find it

[jaycptza]

This dev sounds like an idiot that should shut up instead of making dumb suggestions

[Einhander1971]

I thinks it’s possible to have ray traced graphics with traditional polygon visuals mixed so it maybe possible.

[TheVigilanteCode]

Ray tracing is a very expensive GPU intensive workload, and at the moment, even the flagship current generation consumer PC GPU's available (I'd be surprised if even if the upcoming GTX 1180 (or 2080) could handle this) would be brought down to it's knees and the framerate counter would be in single digits.

We're at least a good 5 years away from mainstream GPU's performing well on a scene with full ray tracing enabled. Perhaps the PS5Pro and the Xbox Two X might touch this, but I would be very surprised if the base PS5 and Xbox Scarlet would do uncompromised ray tracing instead of say some amount of cut down ray tracing with marketing gimmicks like checkerboard 4K.

[mastershredder]

Love these “look up ray tracking > read first sentance of an article > make a well informed conclusion about the topic and post.

[kookwes]

that developer is delusional I doubt even upcoming consumer graphics cards will support ray tracing.

[Phantom68]

Too early to have it on a low cost console

[Destiny1080]

The ps5 will have it

[Wintersun616]

Absolutely not. It would too expensive to justify the gains.

[King_Lothric]

The technology is good but it would make the price of a console to rise too much which is not a wise business decision.

[Aenea]

Perhaps the gen after those...

[Stanjara]

They should because that's the next step in the right direction. They won't because it isn't like a chip for HDR or antialising. Ray tracking needs serious horse power and is too expensive. But they could make some sort of technology in the middle like checkerboard rendering, something that isn't 100% accurate but it tricks you that is. And then the marketing...true 4k HDR raytracking ultra 12 bit colour 140hz console.