Native 4K Resolution At 30 FPS With PS4 Image Quality Requires 7.4 TFLOPS GPU – AMD Developer

Apparently, the Xbox One X and the PS4 Pro still don't have powerful enough specs to be able to "properly" render 4K visuals.

[MasterCornholio]

I kind of knew this when I bought both systems. These mid gen updates do make current gen games look nice on 4k TV/monitors.

[darthv72]

So... PS5 @ 8-10tf all but confirmed. Making the next xb 12tf. Both are likely to be double that of their current best offerings.

[MasterCornholio]

Not really Sony could end up with the most powerful system again. There’s nothing that guarantees that Xbox will be the most powerful out of the two. We will have to wait and see what happens.

[Christopher]

That's not how it works. They're both going to aim for the max they can get at the time. Only way Microsoft will aim that much higher and get it is if they lose more money on sales, go higher price, or take an extra year to put it out. Otherwise expect simultaneously released hardware to be pretty similar with no huge advantages to either other than what they offer software/infrastructure wise.

[81BX]

I have a feeling ms next console will be more powerful. I have a feeling sony will go for the cheaper hardware backed by already proven exclusives.

[dirkdady]

Sony was able to put GDDR5 RAM into the PS4 cost effectively while Microsoft was only able to get GDDR3 into the Xbox one due to Sony's hardware negotiating position as it commands massive contracts with chips manufacturer in China. If both console manufacturers were to launch around the same timeframe I suspect the PS5 would have the superior specs at a $399/499 launch price vs Microsoft's next gen Xbox.

[Sharky231]

It depends on the price of the tech. I feel like Sony is gonna try and stay around the 399 price point! It worked so well for them this gen!

[Obscure_Observer]

"MasterCornholio"

"Not really Sony could end up with the most powerful system again."

It´s possible, but, highly unlikely. Sony will prioritize price. So a $400 PS5 is more likely.

Phil Spencer already gave us hints that their are aiming for power again with the Scarlet. So, a $500 (+) Xbox is to be expected again.

[Razuel]

thought the dev kits were 14-15tf

[MasterCornholio]

@Obscure

Why would either of them say that they won’t do everything possible to release the most powerful system?

Phil saying that means nothing because he doesn’t really know what Sony’s goals are. The same goes for any other console manufacturer.

There’s saying that we have at my work and it’s this, “ Deeds not words “.

[Muzikguy]

What if NextBox ends up 8-10 and PS5 at 12?

@dirk
Part of that was MS had Kinect in with the console too driving up the price. My guess is that’s why they didn’t go for GDDR5. I hope Sony goes for power again. I feel like this gen it’s the first time they did that and it really paid off. All past consoles were hindered by memory issues

[Omnislashver36]

This is why I keep saying a $499 system is logical but people don't believe me. Even doubling power at the same price(jumping to 7nm in 2019-2021) we still won't be anywhere near 16 TFLOPS for $399, but people believe it. It's going to be more like 12 TFLOPS for $499 or 9 TFLOPS for $399, well into 2020 and maybe 2021, we're not getting another price drop before then, we get ONE (1) price/performance boost which is from the jump to 7nm. That jump is 9TFLOPS/$399 12TFLOPS/$499

Although I don't agree with you either Darth72. I think we'll get an increase in price, somewhere between $450 and $499. Sony isn't going to let Xbox get the upper hand, they'll also take a loss on consoles, but I doubt it will be $100. More like the price will end up being $429-449 when all is said and done.

[DarkHeroZX]

Honestly if both use the same Ryzen CPU and have atleast a 7-8tf GPU then I don't think it'll really matter who is more powerful because they'll both be capable of the highest fidelity in games for a while.

[Christopher]

***It is not the most powerful now, so there is no "again", dude.***

It was the most powerful four years, though... So, yeah, again might work. And then Microsoft will one up and and so forth.

[joab777]

Why? These were offset mids. Unless and wanta to give Sony a year’s head start, expect both to be about the same.

[zoks310]

If MS is not more powerful and cheaper than PS5 then they lose next gen hands down if they come out equal or less than PS5, Why?
Sony exclusive will be what tip the scales in PS5 favor next gen just like it did this gen.
If MS dont get the exclusive right then they better be 1st, cheaper and more powerful than PS5.

[xX-oldboy-Xx]

darth72 - what makes you think Sony will release first? MS is the one languishing in soon to be 3rd place (again).

Look what they've done with the power advantage with the x - nothing, absolute jack. Sony still has the best looking console games, by a HUGE margin.

They won't have the power advantage next gen, but at least you mugs won't have to buy a camera as well haha.

[darthv72]

@oldboy.... considering 2020 is a significant year for playstation history, it just makes sense.

2020 is the 20th anniversary of ps2 world wide launch and its also 25th anniversary of the ps1 releasing in NA and EU.

2021 is the 20th of xbox releasing world wide as well.

[3-4-5]

Rumors already stated months ago that PS5 is around 16 T.flops, as they stated that is around what they would need to get the result they are after.

14-16 actually. That was from Sony...Microsoft will be around the same and might go higher just so they aren't behind in specs two gens in a row.

expect anyways from 14-18 T.Flops.

Tech took a huge jump in the last 2 years.

[DarXyde]

Last I checked, for the last two generations, Sony has been matching or exceeding Xbox consoles.

One X came out a year after Pro. They literally got a do over. The only way that you think will happen actually happens is if the next Xbox takes a year or longer to follow up on the PS5.

I expect them to be largely comparable again. Even so, the specs are, in my opinion, an afterthought when it comes to software.

[AngelicIceDiamond]

Its interesting and hilarious to see these fanboys think MS will cheapen the console and again. The X and S both have 4k capabilities which is stupidly obvious where MS is heading with the next Xbox. Numerous interviews and publications even this past E3 Phil said a powerful console is important to him.

So how in the hell is the next Xbox gonna be weaken compared to the PS5? I personally think they're gonna be even maybe with a few bells and whistles but nothing major. N4G can keep dreaming about PS5 outshining the next Xbox.

[ProjectVulcan]

If AMD's Vega shrink to 7nm goes well at the end of 2018 then we should get an idea of what kind of performance you can expect in next consoles. It's not a consumer GPU but gives us an idea of what AMD can do with the 7nm process.

As it happens a couple days ago they demonstrated a 7nm Vega and it showed something like double the transistor density of the current 14nm process used in X1X. This is not that great, because estimates were for a potential 2.8x increase in density and AMD achieved only 2x with those parts, but it's ok..

In theory then you could double up X1X's CPU + GPU performance and not have a bigger die, although currently it would be more expensive because 7nm manufacturing is a lot more expensive. It will come down gradually in cost a lot over the next 18 months though.

[MasterCornholio]

@Mark

We are talking about the beginning of next gen not mid gen upgrades. That’s what I meant by “again”.

I didn’t mean to offend you with my comment.

[n1kki6]

The 1080ti is 11.3 TFLOPS and that is still a $700 card. The 1180 sounds like it will be 13-14 tflops. Which will surely be $700+. Not sure how they are going to fit that tech into the next boxes and keep them affordable. Have to assume the new production will start in a year. So they need a powerful GPU, board, ram, cpu, and keep it under 400 so console gamers don't melt down. That 7.4 tflops mentioned isn't even high quality image assets. This is why cloud and streaming will have to come online. The hardware simply isn't affordable.

[SirBradders]

Pc hardware does not compare to consoles in price point. Consoles are designed purely for gaming.

[n1kki6]

I agree, pricepoint wise, and cost is going to be slightly lower than PC. But they need to put enough power in them to last 5 years, since thats what gamers still expect. I'm sure they can do it, but I wouldn't expect $399 launch prices, if the expectation is native 4k 30 with high quality 4k assets. Simply rendering in 4k vs creating 4k assets is very different. I doubt consoles will be native 4k 60.

[jmc8888]

You forget a few things.

#1 The CPU and targeted framerate alter this.

#2 What are they referencing? AMD TFLOPS or Nvidia? Because the two aren't equal in effectual power. Yes the 'measurement' is the same, but effectually, Nvidia has about 25-30 percent lead Flop vs Flop. This also isn't set in stone, as each architecture has to be compared against each other and past ones.

#3 The timing effects how much power. Each new line brings different benefits. Console lines generally get a mix of features. Sometimes they'll have one aspect that is brand new, but pushed onto something else that is a line behind.

What is a $700 card today, might be alot less. We're talking 2016/2017 tech there. In a sense 2012, since 600, 700, 900, 1000 series lines are all very similar at their core. At some point they will radically alter the underlying architecture.

We're likely about 2-3 months before a new series comes out, at which point that $700 card might be beaten by a $330-450 card. Just like a GTX 1070 can beat a GTX 980ti. Not always, but can. The new one might not, or it might, and maybe by a decent amount. Then given that this is 2018 and consoles might not be out for another 28-40 months.

It's not inconceivable that the 1200/2100 line might be out in 2020, and the new consoles STILL might not be out. So the new console might have, what at this point (since the 1100/2100 line isn't out) is 2 1/2 PC video card generations to go before they are released. The tech from these can then in varying amounts filter down to those console. Plus when comparing versus last generation, a new CPU will definitely help with framerate. At 1080p, the X1X is literally wasting about 30-50 frames per second because of it's CPU. Lots of games on X1X would run at 80-120 frames per second instead of 30-60 if it had a capable CPU. Now at 4k, it isn't quite the bottleneck. But still, framerates, especially on the higher bound need better CPU's.

#4 Also people need to remember 4k is a moving target. People could play 4k/30 at max assets 6+ years ago on 1.5-2 TFlops. Its why many old games can be run at very high 4k framerates today.

#5 People forget that all currencies are being depreciated. It costs what it costs to create this and due to the debasing of currencies, it tends to cost more. The problem for console makers is if the average person doesn't get more money, they have a harder ability to afford higher priced consoles. Because even $499 in 2020-2021 is literally like $299 in 2013. $499 in purchasing power for a console in 2020-2021 is less then the purchasing power of $399 PS4 in 2013.

So lots of things have to be considered. Meanwhile Cloud and Streaming aren't anywhere near there, and even then, with drawbacks that will take decades (at least) to get through. No one wants to play their games, especially single player games at low framerates and lag like they are connected to a low powered overloaded server at what seems like is located at the furthest point away from them on Earth. Higher framerates create an even much higher hurdle.

[ProjectVulcan]

Nvidia won't be used in these next gen machines, they will almost certainly be all AMD designs. So your comparisons are flawed immediately.

Nvidia GPU floating point performance does not directly compare with AMD's because they are completely different architectures. Floating point is really just a measure of compute, not rendering (games) performance. So you don't use it to compare AMD cards to Nvidia ones in games performance.

For example an Nvidia Geforce GTX1080 with 8.2TFLOPS is easily as fast as an AMD Vega 64 which has 12.7TFLOPS in games.

A GTX1080ti is much faster than both.

[n1kki6]

@jmc8888 solid points.

[letsa_go]

Not sure why you got downvoted, but I agree with you. Especially since today's consoles use x86 architecture, and next gen most likely will as well. So they are essentially just striped down, streamlined pcs, and only one has the overhead of the windows os. JMC & ProjectVulcan are saying your argument is flawed, but they are basically saying it will cost even more than a GTX 1080ti, because AMD chips require more TFLOPS to get comparable performance.

[Teflon02]

You have it right in a sense. But no. You forget multiple things. Console gaming is alot more optimized. You see how warframe can run on a potato but you probably have problems with FFXIII. That's because warframe on PC is so optimized that it uses your resources so efficiently that it doesn't need as much. My old GTX 1060 can run games at 4K 30-60 depending on the game of course and that's a $350ish dollar card in Canada as of now and will drop once the new GPU's start rolling out. Now is it a reasonable card to run at 4K? No because games get more demanding and I was having problems with more demanding games or bigger ones. Now I'm assuming when they say PS4 quality it means like GoT, GoW, Horizon etc level of graphics. It makes sense but with the drop in prices of the GPU's and the fact that these are custom made will drop prices as they don't have to follow the same guidelines as say Gigabyte or EVGA. It's all about the Devs. WipEout Omega despite being Vita and PS3 games look absolutely fantastic on Pro at 4K 60. Even looks current gen imho. Same with some Xbox One games on X at 4K whatever. It's all about ambitions, which is why first and 2nd party games always hit more achievements vs 3rd party which isn't to blame anyone

[Teflon02]

jmc
what you said is 100%
my 1060 which is suppose to be a 1080p card can run last gen games at 4k in most cases without issue. I play Lightning Returns at 4K/60fps downscaled to 1080p with a GTX 1060 because the game was having frame drops of about the same whether 4K or 1080p so I said F it, let's get a supersampled image instead lol

[frostypants]

Consumer GPU prices are not the same as what console makers pay.

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

Just a few points to add to the discussion, Nvidia probably won't be used because they were kinda dicks to Sony/Microsoft last time, Nvidia's next gen cards will probably cost more than last gen at release, but offer more like Ray Tracing if they do include dedicated compute units like tensor cores. Navi supposedly comes out sometime in 2020.

[Muzikguy]

Ummm.... if you don’t think the hardware is capable yet, why would a cloud be? There’s just way too much to stream back and forth for a working 4K title. I don’t see clouds working well for gaming for a long time, if ever. Isn’t much rather have a dedicated gaming machine over putting all my faith into servers, ISPs, and bandwidth.

[BenRC01]

Lmao, you think Sony will be paying £700 a card when they order 40 million of em???

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

@sharky231, @Omnislashver36,

I'm pretty confident Sony will try to stay at the same price point, Sony learnt their lesson with the PS3, they don't want a repeat of high prices and taking a loss again. Power doesn't always dictate success, the vanilla ps4/xone were reasonable close spec-wise.

Nvidia and AMD still have until 2021 to release their new GPUs, some of that tech may trickle down to this pricepoint by the time they're ready, although I'm not banking on native 4k for next gen but some between 1080p and 4k upscaled to 4k.

On the upside GDDR6 maybe not as expensive as expected so at least that's some light at the end of the tunnel.

[3-4-5]

Exactly. This entire gen was a "stop-gap" place holder to keep the industry moving while the tech caught up to really do what they want.

Industry was waiting for a tech boost....it happened a few years back...like 2.5-3 years ago which is the reason the Switch is as powerful as it is, within such a small casing.

If Sony could have made the PS4 just as powerful, yet as big as Switch....they would have.

The tech boost happened after XB1 & PS4 launched and both Microsoft & Sony knew this.

* Next gen is the gen developers have been waiting for since it will be the noticeable graphics boost upgrade we all thought this gen could have and should have been.

* Next Xbox & PS5 will be about 16 T.Flops, thus giving them ability to do native 4K @ 60 FPS, and still have some room to spare, to keep things smooth.

It's been obvious for years and plenty of people on forums on many sites, including myself have stated this numerous times.

Some people don't want to hear it, but the truth is what it is.

This gen was a place holder to keep the industry alive while they figure out the future/next step.

Next gen is going to be awesome with the possibilities for XB1 & PS5.

[Sm00thNinja]

Clearly though the Xbox One has been able to squeak by with 6 Teraflops. Plenty of games are native 4k. Maybe it means the image quality of PS4 games? Since most PS4 games LOOK visually better than Xbox One titles. Despite the power advantage?

[MasterCornholio]

I believe that's mainly due to the talent of the developers and the quality of their engines.

[Sm00thNinja]

Id agree with that. I'd say the Xbox One has a pretty big catalogue of native 4k games though

[Sam Fisher]

To me its due to the fact that ms failed with the xb1 original, thing couldnt even do 1080p, so even tho the xb1x is triple the power do not forget that they have to accomodate to lesser console anyways hense why only the resolution bumps up but nothing else

[MasterCornholio]

I wouldn’t say that it’s a very large catalogue of native 4K games. Most of the enhanced games run at a dynamic 4K or at a much higher resolution than 1080P.

Even though I own both I wouldn’t call either a native 4K system.

[Sm00thNinja]

Of course not. No where did I say it was a native 4k console but a large majority of games DO reach native 4k. Are they PS4 quality visuals hell no it's not pushing Uncharted Lost Legacy or God of War at 4k. Im assuming that's the standard the article is talking about.

[Obscure_Observer]

@MasterCornholio

Most games on X (enhanced) run at native 4K. No dynamic. No checkerboard. No 4K range. You can make a research. DF analysis will help.

[mkis007]

Huh? I would say a large majority don't reach native 4k.

[Razzer]

"Most games on X (enhanced) run at native 4K. No dynamic. No checkerboard. No 4K range. You can make a research. DF analysis will help. "

What are you basing that statement on? Link.

[slavish0]

Lying fanboy here

[MasterCornholio]

@Slavish

Well the Xbox One X came out at the end of last year so it doesn't have a large catalogue of native 4k games. By native I mean without any upscaling or checkerboarding. Also my interpretation of large might be different than yours.

As I said earlier while both systems are capable of native 4k and the Xbox One X is indeed more powerful than the pro, I don't consider either to be a 4k system just because 85%-90% of games on either are not rendering at a native 4k.

With that said im happy that I own both systems.

[Razzer]

Here is the official list of Xbox One X Enhanced Games.

https://www.xbox.com/en-us/...

I copied that table and pasted it into Excel. Total of 342 games. 204 are "4K". That is 60% and includes BC titles. So right off the bat 40% of Xbox One X enhanced games are not 4k at all. Just glancing at the list of "4K" games, I see a number of them that use dynamic resolution like the Call of Duty games, Halo 5, Overwatch, etc. Of course, a ton of these games are indie or not graphically demanding. So the claim that "most" run at native 4k. Doubt that seriously. Most AAA? Certainly not. Most excluding the 360 games? Absolutely not.

[MasterCornholio]

@Razzer

You have a point ther Razzer. You really can’t use that list to calculate the number of Native 4K games that they have. Thanks to our friends at digital foundry a good portion “4K ultra HD” games are running in either a dynamic 4K or use some sort of checkernoarding technique. It’s really difficult to calculate the actual figure from the information that Microsoft gives us. Unfortunately that’s the way marketing works which is why we have to use other sites like Eurogamer for Accurate information.

[Sevir]

XBO X games are being boosted to 4K with baseline XBO/OneS image quality. Those games range from 720p to a full 1080p depending on engine optimizations... To get 4K stuff from games built around 1.2/1.3 base hardware a 6TF machine can get you there.

The same can't be said for PS4 as it's 50% more powerful than the Original XBO. Mark Cerny already claimed that to run PS4 centric games at 4K you'd need a threshold of about 8 Tflops of performance, and that's if they Gerry rigged a PS4 to operate at that.

In light of Navi CPUs and Ryzen GPUs being completely partitioned off for next Gen PS hardware, I believe Sony based on AMD's road map is looking at a 12-15 on bleeding edge console specs, they likely will settle for something in the 10-13 range.

Im sure we'll here more in 2020.

[Sm00thNinja]

I think this is exactly the answer

[MasterCornholio]

That makes a lot of sense especially since some PS4 games look absolutely amazing. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Xb1ps4]

Did you just say the og ps4 is 50% more powerful than the og Xbox one?

[Xb1ps4]

I’m not claiming to be a computer wiz at all but that makes absolutely no sense... how can a weaker console get you 4K stuff but a 50% more powerful console would need more power than a weaker console upgrade to do the same?

[Razzer]

"Did you just say the og ps4 is 50% more powerful than the og Xbox one?"

I believe he is referring to the Pro

[bolimekurac]

the ps4 is not 50% more powerful then og xbox, your delusional even saying that, 1.2 vs 1.8 tlfops doesnt equate to 50% more power, even what released on both systems never equaled to ps4 games looking 50% more powerful.

[ProjectVulcan]

"1.2 vs 1.8 tlfops doesnt equate to 50% more power"

1.8 IS exactly 50 percent more than 1.2! I don't know where you learnt maths.....

Although the original Xbox One is 1.28 and PS4 is 1.84 which is a 44 percent gap..

[Razzer]

@ProjectVulcan

derrrr…..so 1.2 times .5 equals .6. 1.2 plus .6 equals 1.8.

lol......exactly right. Duh.

[Sevir]

There have been numerous deep dives into performance comparisons on both the OG PS4 and OG XBO, and the findings have deduced that performance threshold ranges from 44% to 50% overhead... Which is why, the very same multiplatform games launch and even now, show gains on PS4 and concession on the OG XBO.

XBO games were running at half the HD Resolutions, from 720p - 900p, with only a handful running at 1080p... Their image quality and draw distances were less stellar than the PS4 offerings, and appeared softer in presentation as well as displaying noticeable Screen tearing and artifacting.

Then of course there's the argument of stability where the PS4 would more regularly hold higher average framerate over XBO Versions of the same game...

So @bolimekurac... The math and the real world examples demonstratably agrees that the PS4 is 50% more capable in it's performance than the OG XBO... You're delusional if you can look at 720p Call of Duty Releases on XBO verses the full 1080p and much more stable 60fps performances on the PS4 and say that isn't 50% more powerful.

You can't spout lies and disbelief the truth just because you don't like the facts...

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Truth

[theXtReMe1]

This article is absolutely not true. Games like a Forza 7, Ghost Recon: Wildlands(yes, at 1800p, though with higher quality textures and tessellation, etc., though 1800p with ultra quality presets looks better than 4K without), Far Cry 5, Gears Of War 4, Middle Earth: Shadow Of War, Rise Of The Tomb Raider, Sea Of Thieves, State Of Decay 2 or any game that uses 4K textures proves otherwise. If a developer takes the time and truly takes advantage of the X or the Pro, it can happen.

The problem being, very few developers do. It’s why there are quite a few games on the Pro that look incredible, even compared to some X games. First party developers will always draw more horsepower out of a machine than third.

Also, this developer is acting as if any game that gets a true 4K resolution, is getting reductions in quality to reach it, which they are not. They look as good as, or better, than any base system game. Usually with, at the bare minimum, 16x AF. Which adds a nice boost in quality to the near and mid texture clarity.

Only a game that truly takes advantage of a systems power will reach its full potential at 4K. Next generation, developers will be forced to reset their focus on the more powerful systems and therefore development will shift to a true 4K output with 4K textures and higher resolution effects. Abt least, most developers. The less talented will just make excuses as to why they can’t.

[Christopher]

Note the "image quality" statement. That image quality at 4k is what he's talking about. Meaning making God of War at native 4k isn't possible on current hardware, while other games are. But, it's about the quality of the graphics, not just the resolution of them that he's talking about.

[rob-GP]

Just one little correction - Ghost Recon, Far Cry 5 and Rise of the Tomb Raider don't have '4k Textures' - they are all running the same textures that shipped with the original Xbox One, the PS4 and the PS4 Pro. The only difference is the slight boost in Texture filtering which allows the textures to be a little sharper when also displayed at a higher resolution. Put any of those games on a 1080p TV and downsample on both the pro and the X and you will have two almost identical images in terms of textures.

Out of the 150ish X enhanced games since launch, only a handful (like 8-10) have actually supplied a texture download pack.

Don't forget though - Resolution isn't the graphics - well, not in terms of how good a game looks. Minecraft at 4k isn't going to look anywhere near as good as Spider-Man at 1440p for example. It's basically saying that you wont get games as graphically advanced as you do on the PS4 on any system lower than those specs - not if you want a solid framerate. Although - they wont have taken into account if the developer offloads any of the computations to the CPU or if the systems have faster RAM - that will all help the system push more with less.

[Sevir]

The Last of Us Remastered runs at 4K on PS4 Pro... And it's image quality was at it's best on PS3... A game like Horizon will need more than 4.2 TFLOPs with all that it's doing to hit 4K natively

[fathertime4464]

I think what the dev was referring to as true 4k resolution is that not all the games that have native 4k resolution on either mid gen console has the 4k assets to go with the resolution setting. Which is true. So yes they reach 4k resolutions, however their not truly able to reach 100% 4k because of the assets being of a lower quality.
At least that's my take on this article

[KingKionic]

Not even a remotely true statement.

Xbox One X has SEVERAL 4K native titles with matching very high settings and even have the highest textures from PC.

These are just the facts.

Troll article?

[TheColbertinator]

Gamingbolt is all about the trolling and agitation headlines

[gameseveryday]

The article is about PS4 image quality. In that sense, this statement is nothing but the truth.

[Obscure_Observer]

@gameseveryday

"The article is about PS4 image quality. In that sense, this statement is nothing but the truth."

Would be "truth" if the article in question would be talking about PS4 consoles only.

[Goldby]

this isnt about resolution but image quality.

xbox has 4k games, no denying that, but interms of getting games that have the quality of god of war for example isnt possible with 6tflops.

image quality and resolution arent the same thing

[Obscure_Observer]

@Goldby

"xbox has 4k games, no denying that, but interms of getting games that have the quality of god of war for example isnt possible with 6tflops."

Xbox One X could run GOD or Uncharted 4 at 4K/30fps without any problems.

[Goldby]

again obscure. this isnt a discussion about resolution but image quality.

Ms doesnt have the image quality that sony has. even for games of similar genre, Forza 7 at 4k doesnt have the same quality as GTS at 1800p. no ifs or buts about it. Digital foundry did a comparison and there is more detail and image quality from PD than from turn 10, yet only one of them has native 4k resolution. i wonder how they managed that?

"Xbox One X could run GOD or Uncharted 4 at 4K/30fps without any problems."

if thats the case, why hasnt Ms brought anything to the table that is even remotely at the same level as god of war

[letsa_go]

But but but...the xbox one x!! *lip quivers like I'm about to cry*

[thekhurg]

Don't be so butthurt. They aren't talking about pure resolution. Calm your fanboy pants.

[jmc8888]

Not exactly. Many of those games claim native 4k, and indeed can occasionally hit it. But most of those games use dynamic scaling which then most of the time during the game hover around 1620/1800p. Sometimes even lower.

[rob-GP]

Resolution isn't the graphical quality... Minecraft at 4k isn't exactly better looking than Spider-Man at 1440p for example...

[Obscure_Observer]

@rob-GP

"Minecraft at 4k isn't exactly better looking than Spider-Man at 1440p for example..."

Agree. But Spider-Man, Uncharted or even TLOU 2 at 1440p won´t look better than Far Cry 5 at native 4K.

[rob-GP]

@Obscure_Observer - I’m guessing you’ve not seen those games? Far cry 5 uses the same ‘medium’ textures across all four platforms. Even your precious Xbox one X. Thus a 2160p resolution will make it a bit sharper on 4k TVs (when the game hits that resolution as it is dynamic), but the game is built on an engine that runs on multiple platforms an has to cater for the very weak Xbox one.

Naughty dog only code for Sony - they know the system inside out. They can exploit and push the systems to the very max and beyond. Thinking a multiplatform game can look better than that is just stupid and ignorant.

Also, uncharted came out in 2015 wasn’t it, after being developed for about 3-4 years. Can’t really compare that with a game that came out in 2018 can you... even though uncharted actually has higher quality textures, a more stable frame rate, increased graphical effects and a more compelling storyline that far cry 5.

Just because third party games are the best looking things on the Xbox doesn’t mean that’s the same over on Sony’s side, where the talented devs gather and create great games.

[cd1]

@Obsure

Uncharted 4 already looks nicer than Farcry5 at any rez, I obviously understand Uncharted wouldn't look as visually impressive if it was open world but still your statement is inaccurate.

From what I've seen of TLOU2 i'm guessing that will take the graphical top-spot from GOW.

[Shineon]

They are just hating shawdow of war textures are even better than ps4 pro version and many other games the one x had better textures and I dont even have a one x but ivr been disapointed with ps4 pro since the first day I booted up rise of the tombraider ugly texture in 4k.

[rob-GP]

Rise of the tomb raider has the same textures in all 4 versions of the console editions... Why do people like you think otherwise? The Texture filtering along with the higher resolutions in places make the image a little sharper. However, that fake image that was passed around a while ago was pre-release. It had all the depth of field and post-processing effects turned off - the final version of the game didn't actually look as sharp as that image. Even on PC, you had to literally turn off all the graphical settings in order to get the same image as that picture...

Also, Yeah, Shadow of War had a texture pack - the Pro got it for the cinematics but not gameplay - so yeah, the X got higher textures within the game at the sacrifice of framerates. But can you name all the other games that have done that since launch? All the games with a texture pack or a massive 30-50gb download to include PC HQ textures - games that are multiplatform and not MS studio titles? I imagine you can't.

you know why? Because nobody else did. MS paid for the Marketing on Shadow of war and they paid for them to produce the HQ textures just for their system - all other games since have just used the increased texture filtering by default. Assassin creed - same textures as base Ps4 and Xbox One. Farcry 5 - same textures as base PS4 and Xbox One. Battlefield 2 - same textures as.... you see where I'm going with this?

Sure, it can run games at a higher pixel count and it has an increased system-wide Texture Filtering, but at most, 1-5 games that aren't 1st party or MS studios games actually gave gamers HQ textures on the X.

[chiefJohn117]

Tomb raider, gears 4 and Forza say Wazzzzzzuuuuuppp!!!!

[Goldby]

And last of us 2, and gran turismo sport all have better image quality than those u listed.
Resolution is different than image quality. There is more detail in gts port than Forza 7. Digital foundry already proved this with a head to head comparison

[chiefJohn117]

True but what's the one big thing those games doing that tlous 2 ( hasn't even released btw) and gtsport isn't? ACTION! more players, bang and a.i on screen. You dim those down and make things more script like tlous I'm positive they would still run 4k

[Goldby]

Fine days gone vs state of decay.

Days gone is a more detailed world.
Action doesn't always need be lots of ai. Sometimes even a 1v1 can bring more action to the table than 99v1

Mind explaining Forza dilemma in not having as much detail as gt sport

[bolimekurac]

gran tarismo S looks like poo, are you mentally ok

[chronoforce]

Would'nt resolution be one of the things that contritube to an images' quality as well as stuff like anti aliasing, colour depth, HDR etc.

[ONESHOTV2]

"PS4 Image Quality" what does that mean.... let me say this that any dev with the money can create a game that just graphics and throw in more cutscenes than gameplay and then say it's the best looking game any dev can do if that's what they want and another thing i don't want to see too many devs jumping on this movie game bandwagon because that not innovation I want to see devs create game with advanced AI a living world with active flora animals and so on and let's not forget about physic because it looks like this gen devs only care about how a game looks and that's a no-no.

[Goldby]

ps4 image quality is how much detail the image on screen has. nothing is coming close to that from xbox or 3rd party games to date.

image quality has nothing to do with the style of game, case and point, GTS has better image quality and detail than Forza 7.

Cinematics have nothing to do with ps4 image quality. and cinematics are a tool used to help tell stories. guess what, Halo 5 has cinematics, same with Gears of war and nearly every other game out there. that opening scene before a race starts in forza is a cinematic.

[Despasito]

This is not what they are referring .

[cd1]

Even Cerney admitted his team required ~10TF to output native 4K games, I assume he meant with the level of detail gamers expect in AAA titles nowadays as both mid-gen upgrades already have games at native 4K.

I fully expect PS5 to have about this level GPU grunt, combine that with Zen - good times!

[Obscure_Observer]

@cd1

"Even Cerney admitted his team required ~10TF to output native 4K games"

Mark Cerny said 8TF.

[cd1]

In which case i stand corrected - that interview was some time ago...

[rainslacker]

Cerny said around 8tf. Amd is basically verifying what very, and many others who follow and understand gpu tech said back when he made his statement.

[Obscure_Observer]

@rainslacker

"Cerny said around 8tf. Amd is basically verifying what very, and many others who follow and understand gpu tech said back when he made his statement."

Yet somehow, Cerny sold the PS4 Pro to many as a "4K console".

[rainslacker]

With a full on explanation of the checkerboarding technique. What's your point?

The reason he even mentioned the teraflop requirement was because he was talking about checker boarding.

[Obscure_Observer]

@rainslacker

My point is, if the X is able to deliver native 4K for MOST CURRENT first party, third party and indie games, it makes it a "4K console" IMO.

Even 7.4 - 8TF next gen consoles will not be enough to deliver native 4K for 100% of next gen games just like the X is not capable of native 4K for 100% of current gen games now, so i´m not sure what a "4K console" means to you.

[Razzer]

"if the X is able to deliver native 4K for MOST CURRENT first party, third party and indie games"

Most games on Xbox One X do not run 4K at all. Actually, the vast majority of games don't as they are not enhanced. And you have yet to substantiate that claim for X games that are patched. If "most" you mean barely over 50%.....lol.....maybe.

[rainslacker]

@Obscure

Since you want to use the term "most", give me actual statistics which support your argument. We'll say for games that have released since the X1X released. You can even throw in games that got updates after the release, while excluding those that didn't get enhancements to help your numbers.

By most, I expect your numbers to come up to over 50%, but no picking and choosing what to exclude because it doesn't help your numbers. Be sure to count all those games, 1st party, 3rd party, and indies. By native I expect it to be the contextual meaning that eveyrone seems to use...in that, it's not some checkerboarded technique or upscaled.

Balls in your court.

I do agree that even at ~8TF, not all games are going to hit native 4K next gen. Every dev will have different priorities.

[Razzer]

good luck getting a response.

[Christopher]

***My point is, if the X is able to deliver native 4K for MOST CURRENT first party, third party and indie games, it makes it a "4K console" IMO. ***

Considering that even most of the games coming out now on Xbox One aren't native 4k on it but upscaled (albeit at higher resolution than its competition), I'm not sure how you can make that statement.

[Obscure_Observer]

@rainslacker

"Balls in your court."

I don´t think i need to make you a list to show you what the X is capable of.

I though that an extremely demanding and highly detailed open world game as Far Cry 5 which you´ll need a GTX 1070Ti or higher to match or surpass the X´s visuals and performance for this game would give you a pretty good idea what the X is capable of. Destiny 2 which Bungie said themselves that would hit 4K through checkboard just to turn out NATIVE 4K on the X in the end, also should have had gave you an idea what the X is capable of in the hands of top tier developers.

"I do agree that even at ~8TF, not all games are going to hit native 4K next gen. Every dev will have different priorities."

You got it. "different priorities" is key! But but dynamic resolution on games like Call of Duty, Halo 5, Overwatch. Really? Those games are 60fps games, fcs! Even the dumbest fanboy (i´m not talking about you) would know that because of the 60fps performance, resolution will take a hit! Smdh. Xbox One X could EASILY run those games at native 4K/30fps! 30fps is the STANDARD performance for consoles.

First party studios are the ONES who can trully showcase the power of an console! Halo 5, Forza Horizon 3, Gears of War 4, Forza Motorsport 7. ALL top tier AAA games! ALL running at native 4K! And those are just Xbox One X enhanced! Those games wasn´t developed using the X as the base hardware, so:

Don´t even get me start it on the upcomming NEW first party games which will be using the X as the BASE HARDWARE.

60fps for Forza Horizon 4? native 4K/60fps for both SP and MP modes on Gears 5? They just had scrached the surface with the X. Things is about to get really interesting. VERY soon!

I repeat: If first party developers can hit native 4K for games like Forza (Horizon), Halo and Gears, most (NOT ALL) developers should be able to do the same.

Just like the PS4 Pro. If Sony´s first party studios can hit checkerboard 4K for games like GT Sport, Horizon Zero Dawn, and GOD, most (NOT ALL) third party developers should be able to do the same.

Based on everything i said above, YES, i stand by my comments/opinions. The X is pretty much a "4K Console"!

[Razzer]

"You got it. "different priorities" is key! But but dynamic resolution on games like Call of Duty, Halo 5, Overwatch. Really? Those games are 60fps games, fcs! Even the dumbest fanboy (i´m not talking about you) would know that because of the 60fps performance, resolution will take a hit! Smdh. Xbox One X could EASILY run those games at native 4K/30fps! 30fps is the STANDARD performance for consoles. "

Who said "most" games on Xbox One X was native and didn't rely on dynamic resolution, checkerboarding, etc. AT ALL. You. I'm missing the part where you specified 30 fps. Oh....now you capitalize "standard" and pretend that you meant that all along. lol.....fine. Change out those games with Far Cry 5, Final Fantasy XV, Shadow of War, The Division, AC: Origins, and Fallout 4. Dynamic 4k at 30 fps. Even some "standard" games have to rely on dynamic resolution. Most? Well....that is your claim which obviously you don't know to be true.

Pretty telling that you are shifting gears entirely from your claim to focus on first party. Here is a tip: just admit that you really don't know if "most" games rely on techniques like dynamic resolution or not to reach native 4k. That simple.

[Razzer]

“I though that an extremely demanding and highly detailed open world game as Far Cry 5 which you´ll need a GTX 1070Ti or higher to match or surpass the X´s visuals and performance for this game would give you a pretty good idea what the X is capable of. ”

BTW....that is wrong. DF says GTX 1070 at 30 FPS will beat One X with “full fat 4K experience at ultra settings”. Not the slightly lower settings One X runs at and NOT with dynamic resolution. One X version does beat 1060 and RX 580, however.

https://m.youtube.com/watch...

[rainslacker]

I'm not asking for a list. I'm asking for a compilation of numbers, which can then be used to confirm or refute your assertion that "the X is able to deliver native 4K for MOST CURRENT first party, third party and indie games"

If it's able to deliver that, then why are most current first party, third party, and indie games not delivering it? Is it because it's not as capable as you say, or is it because devs just don't care that much? If it's the latter, I'll refer you to a prior comment of mine, where I said that many devs aren't going to bother, to which you were adament about how much they would.

Or are most games delivering that? I don't know, you're the one making the assertion that they are.

You're free to change the goal posts for calculating your numbers. With the exception of keeping it to first party.

If you want to keep it on topic, you can also make a separate list that only includes games that have image quality on the level of PS4 image quality. There aren't that many indies in that field, and only a few 3rd parties that even try nowadays.

I don't mind a generalized argument when it can be backed up. But there are times where I feel it prudent to have facts available if someone asks you to back up your arguments. If I were to make a statement of fact, and was asked to provide proof, I would do my best most of the time. If I found I was wrong, I would accept that, and use it to form future arguments and maybe even come to argue the same as someone who called me out. That's how discussion should work. Not just a bunch of people declaring statements as true because they believe they are.

[PGRfox]

Mark Cerny of Sony said this long ago. Though he thought 8 Tflops

[Razuel]

So to get a 60fps checkerboard at a 3x power advantage would require 20tf minimum, interesting. Dont really see this happening for a 2019 console release.

[rob-GP]

Not really. The CPU is the bottleneck. If they put in a decent cpu then it can hit 60fps easily. It’s just all about the cost and optimising it. Would people rather get a console that hasn’t a solid 1440p/60 and 2160p/30 for about 400-500 dollars or one that pushes the 2160/60 narrative at about 600-700?

[SameOldx2]

Strange article. Still 3+ (gpu) generations away on pc.

[jagermaster619]

I think Microsoft is going to wait to see what Sony does before they release their next system, at least that would be smart so they can add more power if needed but either way both systems should be great.

[Goldby]

Issue with that will be the same issue they are dealing with now.

The pro came out a year before the one x and was able to output to 4k tv's at either full 4k or checkerboard. Making the release of the one x less impactful.
If the same happens at the start of a generation they will always be behind. Plus the deals are probably already in place with the manufacturers for the CPU and GPU already, not much can be changed last minute

[Starman69]

Ps5 should aim for 2k 60fps on all games, upscaled to 4k, or compressed to 1080p. Then add a 4k locked 30fps mode for those who prefer resolution. Sorted 👍

[Firebird360]

Ps5 and nextbox will be 10-12tf with 16gb ram.
Release window 2020-2021.
$600 each.
I also think ms will have a cheaper cost version of nextbox that is digital only with no disc drive.

[windblowsagain]

Consoles are designed for gaming. I type this while flicking through pornhub and youtube on my ps4.

[MrSec84]

Considering base PS4 handles games like God of War, Uncharted 4, Horizon, etc at 1080p native and pretty much locked 30FPS, on a 1.84TFlop AMD Pitcairn GPU a 7.36TFlop or 4X boost in raw performance, with the same architecture should be enough to get similar performance at 4K native resolutions.

Newer GPU architectures like Polaris, Vega or Navi should be able to do more at the same TFlop rating, so it should stand to reason that lower Floating Point ratings should enable better end performance because of the new architecture being more efficient.

Games that operate at 900p or lower resolutions on PS4 would obviously require more raw power to hit native 1080p because those games are inherently more demanding, so the jump to 4K this developer's talking about could take more demanding games into consideration.

[Einhander1971]

Gears 4 on X looks amazing in 4K, I know I will probably end up buying both next gen systems again in the end anyway.

[AuraAbjure]

Not a surprise considering the Xbox 360 could only render a few games at native 1280 X 720. And it was cutting edge tech upon its release. Why would anyone think its successor could render at NINE TIMES that res?

[AuraAbjure]

6 times the resolution of the prior generation is asking too much.

[GamingInFrames]

I was running 3 - 980 Ti cards with an overclocked 5960X, and with settings at their highest in 4K and AA off, I could NOT lock in at 60FPS in every game. About 6 months ago I swapped out my 3 - 980 Ti cards and went with 2 - 1080 Ti cards. Wow, what a difference! That being said, when it comes to next gen consoles, settings will still have to be optimized if they want to lock in at 60FPS. Also, the developers should keep AA off for 4K... it's not necessary.

[jonivtec]

This is so relative.....but a new gen console is likely if we want 4k visual with more complexe scene.For now xbx and pspro are only able to give a better image quality than the standard console....bring nothing else.

[Profchaos]

It's all about the graphical fidelity of the game. Call of duty will hit 4k as its nice but not that intense es 6 no chance

[clouds5]

Do people really care about 4k that much? I'd still prefer a smooth 1080p/60fps experience for a lower price...

[AuraAbjure]

Yes it needs to look good for screenshots and magazines. That's what sells.

[on_line_forever]

We need in next genration 4K Resolution At 60 FPS With PS5 Image Quality not PS4

[Cobra951]

Even the GTX 1080ti has trouble with those demands. The 1180 may release soon, but that only looks to be about 20% faster. And, I'm talking flagship PC GPUs here, not consumer-priced consoles.

[xX1NORM1Xx]

Honestly we should probably just focus on 1080p 60fps... i just want the ability to pick between 4k 30fps and 1080p 60fps.

[Srelhow]

Well looks like we might be in for another 30 fps system. Wish they would make 60 fps or better mandatory on the next cycle and on.

[cd1]

No point aiming for higher frame rates than 60 on console, most 4K TVs top out at 60Hz. I cant imagine many use monitors either.

[Artemidorus]

This were obivous especially the pro struggling to provide real 4K.

I'd wait for the new consoles.

[Gravesinger_]

Well..Duh

[Mr_Writer85]

@Obscure_Observer
"It´s possible, but, highly unlikely. Sony will prioritize price. So a $400 PS5 is more likely."..

Spot on. The PS5 will see an upgrade on PS4, but they won't want to price themselves too high.

The PS4 and the Switch have proven price beats power.

[gamer7804]

, depending on the game, the xbox one x can run at 4k. depends on the visuals and effects a game has. even a 7.4 GPU might not render 4k/30 if enough polys, effects large draw distance are at play.

[Master of Unlocking]

Dang, 8Tflops and that's with only 30fps. When you take into account the escalation in the graphics in games that will come out, not tomorrow but 2-3-4 years from now, we're probably looking at anywhere between 12～15Tflops for the PS5/Xbox Two if we want our new-gen systems to be like those high-end PCs and run future games at native 4K and 60fps. I hope Sony and Microsoft are paying attention. Goes to show you they need to take their time to come up with those new-gen systems. Even in 2020 I'm not sure either will be able to offer a system with 12～15Tflops at the sweet spot pricepoint of 399,90$/€.
Also it goes to show you how vain Microsoft's claims about their Xbox One X were. Of course 6Tflops were never going to be enough to offer native 4K...