Final Fantasy seems to lose fans every generation and with each new anthological entry. The Daily Dorks discuss the strange case in their newest episode of Pass The Salt.
The series has gone from being an involving tale, as best as could be done in 8 and 16 bit, to an intricately detailed setting - with the same 8/16 scale as far as story telling is concerned. Less so because graphic have overvalued story. Story has become compromised by graphics with the devs leaning evermore on series lore to compensate.
That's is what pulls in new fans, the weight of the lore. The same deal with the Star Wars prequels becoming accepted by younger generations.
These franchise's variety is what attracts more fans. The diversity of the series is games bring many people into the brand. KH1 for example introduced me to Final Fantasy and FFX-2 was first game in the series.
Other people can be brought in with the spinoffs, Ivalice titles, Bravely series, Kingdom Hearts, etc.
The franchise has gone from defining character classes into characters, Tifa is a monk/martial artist, Cecil the black knight who goes on a side quest in order to change class to Paladin, Vivi the black mage, to character classes being interchangeable and meaningless.
Its not FF13 or FF15 that crates new fans, its FF4 through 7.
- FFXIV is one of the most successful & high quality MMOs currently on the market. - WoFF is a great title for new and old school fans alike to enjoy. - FFXV was the fastest selling title in the franchise for a time. - FFXII: TZA is showing amazing sales worldwide & is a quality remaster. - FF's spinoff franchise Kingdom Hearts continues to garner success.
Final Fantasy continues to gain large success in many ways within the western market. You know what hasn't? Dragon Quest because unlike Final Fantasy, its traditionally stuck with the elements of old school RPGs. Some western consumers may like that, but it's an undisputed fact that FFs willingness to change and reinvent itself has allowed it to be the bigger franchise worldwide.
"You know what hasn't? Dragon Quest because unlike Final Fantasy, its traditionally stuck with the elements of old school RPGs."
That isn't why. Persona has been doing well whilst "stuck with the elements of old school RPGs."
DQ hasn't done well because it was never marketed well towards the western audience. It was always a niche Japanese game that you had to look for. Enix never put the attention on it that Squaresoft put on Final Fantasy, and as SE that trend continues.
Persona hasn't been doing as well as Final Fantasy though. And Persona doesn't stick so closely to old school concepts as Dragon Quest.
It's hard to market such a traditional series to a mainstream audience. DQ is doing better now than it has in the past(especially when it was just Enix handling it) and it still isn't as big as it could be.
@ Der
- It's been reported that FFXIV currently has one of the highest active userbases for an MMO. And it just had a superb expansion pack.
- Not really. FFXII is designed so that you can't breeze through everything with a set Gambit. Only the ignorant really believe such a ludicrous notion is true. FFXII is also a highly praised game once again.
- FFXV is not forgotten. Do you see how many updates it's gotten?
Actually get a brain before you respond. It seems like you'll randomly bash anything FF related to make a dumb point
All you people that hate on FF1-9 always mislead with lies like labbeling turn based as OLD SCHOOL!
How could the older kind of game (ACTION RPG) call the one created after it OLD SCHOOL? There are three fingers pointing back at you when you point the finger at turn based and say old school.
Dragon Quest is a bad example because it is not on the same league.
The truth is that the FF series has been in a decline since FFXIII. Square Enix is trying to hard to appeal to the west that the series is losing its roots. With all that hype and the long wait no wonder it was a fast selling game, but the game was still average at best
You know what JRPG series is consistent and gets new fans with every installment while keeping the old fans happy? Persona! Thr series keeps growing with each installment
Go Check on reddit, youtube, and any Persona 5 related forum and you will hear a number of 1st timers saying nothing but good things about it. I'm one of them! Persona 5 didn't need to lose its roots to appeal to newcomers. It did it by staying true to its roots and being a good game. It is even more awesome to see fans spreading the word on the net. I don't see FFXV players do that. You either see people that are ok with it, or more who are not pleased with it. I don't doubt that by appealing to the west they get new fans, but for how long they stay? And what about the old fans? Yeah, they keep losing them with every new installment. Sales only mean money to Squenix obviously, but to the fanbase this means nothing. Persona 5 gets more love with less sales by being a better RPG game
FF needs to go back to being Fantasy and an actual RPG
Dragon Quest is the perfect example. It's ran nearly as long as Final Fantasy and it isn't in the same league because it isn't as willing to change. FFXV was also received better than FFXIII.
FFXV has sold better than FFXIII and it's going to continue on selling, so you really can't make the statement that it's been declining when evidence clearly proves otherwise.
Persona still isn't ever going to reach to Final Fantasy's status. FF will always have a larger fanbase.
I've seen plenty of people enjoy FFXV. Not only that but people on the internet aren't an exact representation of an entire fanbase. For example CoD: Infinite Warfare got one of the most disliked videos on YouTube, yet it still ended up being one of the best selling games of the year, even outselling Battlefied 1.
Final Fantasy is still an RPG series, nothing about that has changed.
Yet you seem to be forgetting something blatantly obvious. Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy started in the exact same league along with Shin Megami Tensei.
FF's later success in the international market with FFVII allowed it to gain a larger budget. So let's not pretend that FF started out as a god among RPGs.
I'm using FFXV as a comparison since it's one of the main topics discussed in this article.
They did a gamble with ffvii larger western marketing budget.. mostly because amazing western reception from ff iv, vi (or 2/3 at the time), and chrono trigger.. VII's success made them a ps1 rpg developer-publisher powerhouse
And FFVII was able to gain a large budget in the first place because of the success of the franchise in the 4th generation. The success of FFVII was able to dramatically shape the future of the franchise.
Dragon Quest was a bigger franchise with DQI-DQIV than Final Fantasy was with FFI-FFIII in the 3rd gen. However Squaresoft's flagship franchise started pull ahead in the international market with FFIV & FFVI. Enix on the other hand kept DQV & DQVI in Japan which stunted its growth and worldwide appeal.
Thanks to that success Squaresoft was able to put in more resources into FFVII compared to what Enix did with DQVII and the way each respective franchise was handled later on is history. In fact DQVII most likely even got a localization in the first place because of the prior success of FFVII.
@ alstruck
Indeed. Not to mention that that Super Mario RPG also helped raised the awareness of the Final Fantasy brand during the 4th gen while Dragon Quest was entirely absent to western audiences that entire gen.
No, actually. If we exclude the MMOs, FF sales have been on a downward trend since FF10 (technically since FF7, but considering FF7s really high sales it's more of an outlier.) This trend didn't stop untill FF15, and if you read reviews of 15 they almost universally say the story is half missing or outright bad and the game is carried by the gameplay and characters, which means it got mass appeal not for being a good FF game, but for being (yet another) open world action game.
Yeah, agree with kalkano, with FF13 Square had proof that story didn't matter, and with FF15, which had other hang ups and delays, they put in as little effort. Leaning on franchise fandom, they're only going to get worse. If such is possible.
People are equating their own personal opinion to say the series is successful or a failure when the numbers are what you should look at.
FF has been on the decline because it has forgotten what the second F stands for. Each new FF game is more just Japanese Sci-Fi with Western graphics obsession.
Excluding the MMO, the last proper Fantasy title for FF was FFV. FFVI is where the reliance on sci-fi aspects started seeping in and FFVII is where it really took off. From then onward the Fantasy element kept consistently being reduced.
The franchise puts less reliance on deep storytelling. It favours on-rails progression and flash. Coincidentally just like a shooter.
The series always had some form of sci-fi since the beginning. Let's not forget how FFI featured time travel and FFIV had you travel to the moon.
Not to mention that Final Fantasy has ALWAYS had western elements ever since FFI with its setting & mythology. FFX was the first title to predominantly eastern iconography and influences.
You're basically complaining that each new Final Fantasy is just more Final Fantasy.
Even the titles from FFI-FFV were drastically different from one another. So it's impossible to say what is or what isn't "proper." And the fantasy elements were very apparent in FFIX and FFXII.
The series has always frequently changed things up in various aspects. So making general sweeping generalizations is ridiculous and doesn't account for each title's individuality.
"The franchise puts less reliance on deep storytelling."
Not really. More like sensical storytelling. Stories that introduced and took you through a world. Which is why FF4, 6, 7 and 10 often stand out as they do. Also why FF8, which introduced the guy funding Cid and the Academies but never showed where he came from, sticks in my craw as much as it does - one of many reasons in fact.
Why FF9 doesn't seem to get the recognition it should have is just beyond me.
Anyway, with FF12 "the World" got condensed into a group of European countries, and FF13 were only the notes for a proper games presented as a whole one because to technical incompetence and unfamiliarity. Same goes for FF15.
I mean, how is it that people forget that many things were changed between the decade it was first announced and when it released?
What point does that prove? That still doesn't negate the fact that mainline FF games still end up one of the best selling games. FFXII & FFXIII sold a lot as well as FFXV.
And if you want to talk about downward trends like they absolutely mean something look at the bigger picture.
- No 3D Mario game has outsold Super Mario 64.
- No other Pokémon game has sold as well as the the Red/Blue or Gold/Silver. Diamond/Pearl comes in third with every other title beneath it.
- Kingdom Hearts has been on a downward trend since the beginning since no other game in the series has yet to outsell KH1.
- For the longest time no Tales of installment managed to outsell Tales of Symphonia until Tales of Xillia arrived. Now no other game in the series has yet to outsell Xillia.
I can bring up plenty of other franchises that also had downward trends, but my point has already been made. Many of the best franchises in gaming have had downward trends, but that doesn't make the following titles any lesser projects for not being the new best selling title in its respective series. Each franchise is still able to retain its old fans while gaining new ones as well.
Best FF is still FFVIII for me, loved that game. Played it over and over again when it came out, have some good childhood memories about that game. I loved FF9 and 10 and 12. But I hated FF13, and after playing FF15... well it was okay. Not the best FF, but okay.
I love that game also, not sure what's got me stuck to it though. I recently played through the point in the game where you travel to Timber and talked with Rinoa for the "first" time, and she compliments you on your dancing, and Squall gives some line about how you have to learn new skills and blend in to your environments, so learning to dance was preparing him for the battlefield. Such bad writing.
The dance scene is epic, i remember the first time i play the game and i was like this cant be real, theres no way they can do that kind of cgi, love the story, also my favorite ff game, i love the square soft from those times, great games in the PS, xenogears, chrono cross, final fantasy 7-8-9, vagrant story, parasite evil 1-2, brave fencer musashi.
FF8 is my favorite FF too! It was my first FF game and I love it with all my heart. The locations, soundtrack, graphics, characters, gameplay etc. is my favorite. I just loved wandering around balamb garden, Winhill, Balamb City, or Fisherman Horizon with the soothing soundtrack playing in the background. Making every monster life miserable with a bad breath by Quistis and then ending it with a shockwave pulsar was my favorite past time. Triple Triad is my favorite minigame ever and played it for hours!
Final Fantasy was going tooooo high starting from VI till XII then XIII happened and again(XIII-2) and again (LR). XV was just ok but no!! it had potienials it shown as full deep game. Versus looked, sounded, placed and presented alot better than XV.
Well you actually don't really know what Final Fantasy Versus was for all you know Final Fantasy 15 is exactly what that game was going to be give or take a few scenes.
I understand how easy it is to get trapped into this thinking of unknown, but you need to get over that you don't really even know what that game was for all you know it's story was probably just as bad as what the final story is for15 even the writer confirms that the vast majority of the story is what the original actually was.
Cuz it's starting to sound like lots of people want to live in this fantasy world where vs had this story in their mind that was the greatest story in gaming that simply because you're creating that in your mind you're never really seeing with the final version is so your assumption in regards to Fantasy is that it is exactly what you want when in reality it likely is almost exactly what 15 was in the first place we just don't have enough information to really say that vs story verbatim was going to be better than 15 simply because you don't even know if you're simply referring to the exact same story in the first place.
So it "looked" better, how do you know it was going to be better?
Well according to SE developers statements and their trailers the game changed alot they removed one whole character and create an whole different one, they changed the settings, they scratch whole city location and its fightings, they removed alot of gameplay elements, made the game less deep and less dark, changed the tone, changed cloth designs and influences, changed the engine, changed the whole name, changed the logo story, Nomura isn't the director assuming that you now directors vision change the whole thing and are really differents. They even said and insist that FFXV took 3 years development and Versus development isnt included. Most of points that I mentioned above are facts not opinions.
@ink-except you actually don't know what those elements would have actually been in regards to execution to say if it was better or worse.
No one does.
In the concept at nomura created is still actually Final Fantasy 15 which is actually been confirmed by the current director in the current producers of the game.
ie it turned into Final Fantasy 15 nomura was still part of the development and still controlled the concept of the game.
Mind you it is an opinion not a fact that some of those elements taken out made the game less dark because you don't even know how much of that was even in the game to actually say the entire game would have been dark in the first place.
So when you're saying they made the game less deep and less dark exactly how tdo you even know the entire game 100% was going to be this dark game in the first place? Are you sure you're not just talking about one scene you saw?
My problem is a lot of this assumption is based on people who never actually played Final Fantasy Versus it's a literally you guys running on Fanboy emotions and writing fanfiction for a game you never played.
Exactly I've never actually played the 13 series and I would admittedly say I've given that game no real chance so I'm Square remasters all 3 on PlayStation 4 I might consider giving it a go.
Many people on the site of actually confirmed to me it's not really that bad the story might be pretty terrible but they told me the gameplay is pretty fun.
That rumor is still going around about Square making this big final fantasy collection that's Final Fantasy 1 through 10 lol
It wouldn't shock me and it sounds more believable.
How is a series that is built from the ground up at each entry milked? Im actually offended on their behalf, holy hell you kids just fire off the most retarded things in comments
Nah... each game is different so how it can be considered milked. There is no continuity among them (except for the sequels like X-2 and XIII-2 etc.) It is just a brand name that releases different and new RPGs under a single title.
You do realize square exix has multiple teams and studios yeah? And funny enough yur examples literally prove my point... None of these games are similar at all and have something for everyone.
Well from what it sounds like Final Fantasy 7 team it's likely going to have that same team start to work on Final Fantasy 8 remake or even 9.
@Godmar-lol. I mean Kingdom Hearts randomly got a release window so something tells me they might be waiting for Gamescom or even PlayStation experience to announce the first part of Final Fantasy 7 I don't really know what marketing deal they have with Sony.
Regardless you would have to consider that the people working on Final Fantasy 7 are not even the same team that work on the main Final Fantasy games so it is very likely that they could work on Final Fantasy 16 while having another team work on Final Fantasy 8 remake.
@fall-it has nothing to do with how long it's going to take it as everything to do with if it's going to make Square money I mean seriously reread your comment and realize just how strange it sounds.
As a real estate agent I work with investors all the time and there's many times where there's projects being started in which their projection date is three or four years so for the most part I sign a marketing and the listing contract that last 5 years that only gets extended automatically if the development is not complete for me to list and Market those developments.
Mind you when I first did this I even thought how strange it would be to waste so much time waiting yet when the development was complete I literally got over 10 closings over the period of like a week
So I don't really need to explain to anybody that knows anything about the real estate industry just tell massive such a deal actually is, that deal literally launched my real estate career as before that I only did maybe three to four closings a year, yet I was closing 10 or 11 properties in one week in regards to new developments in total I think I ended up closing like 27 properties from that deal
Do the math.
I'm getting 3% of a $400,000 house.
So is it going to take three or four years to see the completion of those developments before I get paid? Of course but you're also trying to suggest I should just not do it because it would take a long time lol
Ummmmm ok
Are you seriously not mathematically understanding that to a business it's irrelevant if they're actually making positive money? If Final Fantasy 7 ends up successful and they make their money back of course they're going to get a team started on Final Fantasy 8 because it is showing there is a demand for these older titles to be remade.
I mean understand that the developer that built that Community took years but he made Millions from the deal....
So what? You could have suggest that he doesn't make more money because it takes a long time? As opposed to what exactly?
Seriously help me understand your logic behind this it just doesn't really make any sense the amount of time it's going to take is really not that relevant as compared to the money they're going to make
With Final Fantasy 7 remake inevitable success I could almost guarantee you they're going to remake Final Fantasy 8 in 9 easily.
I agree. S.E. will make more than enough money because they know die hard old school fans will bite and they have a hell of a younger audience now waiting to swallow up anything they throw at them.
Series rot? If any series can bounce back it's FF though, and while we're on the subject, FF doesn't have to be locked to any one ongoing storyline or game mechanic (other than being an RPG series). I think it's just reached a point where old and new fans can't agree on what makes a good entry in the series. At least it hasn't fared as badly as Resident Evil in that regard as mechanics are part of why the old school and the new school has been at war since at least 2004. Besides, FF has done really well for a series that has reached 15 main entries plus various sequels and spinoffs. I'm sure we haven't seen the legit "Final" Fantasy, and won't in the foreseeable future.
I absolutely love Final Fantasy 10 that's easily in my top 5 favorite Japanese RPGs ever made!
Unfortunately never played the 13 series and I'm definitely warming up to giving it a chance if Square remasters it.
Even if they don't I'm pretty positive getting them used on PlayStation 3 is going to be pretty cheap.
Wow no love for Final Fantasy 9? Lol I would say the only thing I didn't like it Final Fantasy 9 was the leveling up the grinding took so damn long in that game it was ridiculous.
All you need to play is FF-13,imo 13-2 & 13-3 are a waste of time.I enjoyed FF-13 immensely the production & the soundtrack is amazing! You can buy it used for 5 or 10 bucks for the PS3,I still own my copy. I think it's also on PS Now.
Please pay Dragonknight no mind & try FF-13 on your own accord.I have been back & forth with him about FF-13 since it was released & everytime when someone is replying to me about the game on a positive note he always makes it his business to interfere & put his negative views to try & sway the person to not play the game because of his negative experience & other folks have chewed him out before for this..Again it's linear & it has some flaws but in my opinion the game is fun & to me I overlook those flaws with gameplay,production & the soundtrack & if you still have a PS3 you can get the game dirt cheap.I would say to anybody that likes FF games should play all FF for the experience.I haven't played the mmo's & I didn't like FF-13-2 or FF-13-3 but again don't let me sway you from trying them you may like them is all I'm saying.If you decide to..do enjoy!
I liked 13 and 15 too! 13 was the first one I played and my introduction to the franchise (other than watching my friend play 7 at his house many years ago) so I didnt have any expectations for the game, but I really enjoyed it. Didnt like 13-2 and Lightning returns though, mainly because it just compliated the story even more for me. i've also since played World of Final Fantasy, it was okay. Currently playing 12 and loving it! Id be open to playing the older titles if they remake them, looking forward to 7!
@EDMIX: For your own sanity, do not play 13. Trust the overwhelming negativity that game has received. Don't play it unless you want to be disappointed.
You've been saying this about FF-13 for eons now,because you didn't like it stop trying to stop someone else for trying something they may like or may enjoy.Let him be the judge,the only folks complaining how bad it was are folks like you on theses sites not really knowing how much the world really like the game or not.The game sold almost 9.7 million copies as of today & was received well by critics with a Metacritic score of 83.Your bashing is 7 ears old now it's time to give it a rest.
"Final Fantasy seems to lose fans every generation and with each new anthological entry."
And it gains new fans as well. It wouldn't continue to be as successful as it currently is if you glossed over that basic fact.
Best FF is still FFVIII for me, loved that game. Played it over and over again when it came out, have some good childhood memories about that game. I loved FF9 and 10 and 12. But I hated FF13, and after playing FF15... well it was okay. Not the best FF, but okay.
For starters, games used to launch with complete, worthwhile stories.
Final Fantasy was going tooooo high starting from VI till XII then XIII happened and again(XIII-2) and again (LR). XV was just ok but no!! it had potienials it shown as full deep game. Versus looked, sounded, placed and presented alot better than XV.
Still enjoyed 9 and 12 the most. Never even touched the 13 series, and am waiting for 14 to hit steam.