Refunds, Ignorance & Yooka-Laylee

GameRaven.com writes:

''Fresh from Jon ‘JonTron’ Jafari’s removal from Yooka-Laylee, the world of internet debate has been more than fierce. A number of outlets have reported on various aspects of the story, some forgetting to remove their person stances on the topic.''

[PlayableGamez-]

Boycott warriors are the worst...

[Sono421]

I think you mean the best? Especially in this instance, did they have the right to fire him? Yes of course, but firing someone over stating facts in a debate is ludicrous. I mean if he was spewing random hate speech sure, but facts in a debate? Cmon can we quit being snowflakes already. Now whats the best way to show them they messed up? Hit them where it hurts.. boycott their game.

[DasTier]

Meh, i might not agree with what he said, but it feels excessive to remove him for his opinions.

I would bet 95% of people who were going to buy this didn't even know he was involved in the voice acting to begin with...

[NecoTehSergal]

Of the millions of his fans - it's quite clear that many of them knew, and that many were drawn to the kickstarter because of Jons' messages and assisting in advertising the game and the kickstarters' existence to his fans.

Sooooooo-....

[Gecksta]

Millions of fans?

[NecoTehSergal]

@Gecksta - Jontrons' channel has 3+ Million subscribers.....so.....yes, he has Million(s) of Fans....

This ain't rocket science.

[Sono421]

This is what people are not understanding, he was not fired over his opinions (although that is the claim) He was fired for saying a statistic (Fact) during a debate, which is ludicrous. He said more rich black people commit crimes than poor white people, which is not a study he conducted but a different party, he simply restated their findings and is now being crucified for it. Absolutely bonkers. People are so sensitive these days it's pathetic. I think his response video is brilliant. He talks about how the mainstream media are the ones also categorizing us into groups (which they do) but then when we talk about these topics of categorization they put us on the cross. The reason the topic was even brought up in the debate is obviously because it is in mainstream media otherwise it would not be a talking point. Just idiotic, and anyone who thinks he's in the wrong might as well go back to the bubble they came from.

[opinionated]

"Play-Tonic where more than within their rights to remove Jafari from the game. They chose to remove him from the game on the basis of political beliefs, consumers have the right to remove their money from the game for the same reason. It’s a prime example of how quickly things can change when creators become political."

Yes. Exactly.

You start off by saying "people getting denied refunds isn't true" but you don't show anything that people got banned for on steam and the official forums. I agree with your civility statement (although people get refunds by being an asshole everyday, ask a customer service person). Maybe these people were told to fuck off about a refund and had a reason to talk shit. Banned from the steam forums and then went to the official forums like wtf. I can understand that.

I have never seen so many businesses tell their customers to eat shit than gaming companies. Their customer service must be the easiest job in the world, you just have to be a leftist prick activist. Let's hope they actually have a good game lol. You bring up the bioware guy talking shit but it's clear that bioware is now hiring people based on their political beliefs instead of talent. Their political beliefs are so hollow that it turned bioware into a shell of its former self. Activism is not a replacement for programming, storytelling, etc. We can all see the politicization of gaming and the vast majority of us don't like it.

[PixelGateUk]

All of the post on the official forums are removed after the banning. The info was sourced from team Team 17 CM's. As for Steam, it's very hard reaching the mods from those pages. They often do not reply to messages or simply give a copy and pasted reply from guidelines, hence the lack of inclusion there. As for Manveer Heir, he no longer works at Bioware and has went Indie. I will not be covering any of his work.

We can all see the politicization of gaming and the vast majority of us don't like it. - i agree. I do think politics has a place in most creative media, but it shouldn't be there to act as a division between people. I don't agree with either JonTron or Heir, but i do not think its correct to punish one and blissfully ignore the other. If one political belief leads to someone being accountable, then that same approach should carry over to others. The media has cherry picked based on who they disagree with too much

[opinionated]

I don't think bioware is going to be around much longer honestly. They will get let-go or dissolved into the remaining studios. That's what politics gets you!

Politics does have a place in games but not the process. My favorite game is bioshock and that's a roast on any rand individualism. I am an individualist but I still understand it's downfalls. The bioshock games are highly political but you wouldn't know ken Levine is a radical leftist unless you looked for it. His political writing is well done and I appreciate it even though we don't agree ideologically. He didn't politicize the process of making his game.

I agree on the cherry picking as well.

[davand114]

Companies are allowed to punish or terminate a contract with someone if they say offensive things that violate the companies policy, beliefs, or makes them look bad. Playtonic had the right to fire jt and take him out of the game. IMO bioware should have fired that person that was saying racist shit about white people; there is no room in the workplace for shit like that. Racism should not be allowed in any workplace, period.

[PixelGateUk]

The problem with Bioware was how spread they became. After being bought up, they had various smaller studios pop up, and then the MASSIVE undertaking that was the Old Republic. The sheer costs of the game, and EA's drive for high sales and profit (which is fine given its a major player) forced Bioware down the road of making games by checklists. All of a sudden, you can tick of popular trends found in their games. Open worlds, mmorpg-like structure, crafting etc etc

For a 'first' effort, Bioware Montreal have a fairly good foundation with andromeda, but the is clearly not ready for release. The script is very poor too.

As for the media, they all tend to sing from the same book, it does no surprise me that they'll go for the throat when it comes to people with differing beliefs. That's just the current climate at the moment. I just wish more people would talk rather than attack tbh

[davand114]

Bioware should have never tried to make mass effect a open world game.

[opinionated]

I always thought it was because their talent left. I remember seeing the bioware veterans leave in droves during andromeda. I have a sneaking suspicion it was due to the political nature engulfing the studio. I think the same thing happened to naughty dog (although they can still make good games).

That's the thing about politics, it's hard to have a civil discussion. That's why we have governments that go yell at each other in congress or parliaments.

Everybody is political, politics are just your core beliefs. When you start telling somebody that their core beliefs are wrong, they tend to not take that very well. The difference is that our political discussions have changed. It's not longer the ultra-selfishness of radical individualism vs the ultra-selflessness of radical collectivism. It's not white nationalism vs the intersectional revolutionaries. There are discussions to be had on these topics with pros and cons for each (and they were all done by bioshock before it was "cool")lol. Politics now are identity politics and they are not built for discussion. Now it's "if you don't agree with me you are a racist, bigot, homophobe, xenophobic and you need to be crushed". This has created a polarizing environment and the media has played a large part in this lack of discussion.

[davand114]

There isn't any real evidence that Bioware is hiring people because of political beliefs; they just made a bad game. Never back kickstarter because you are not guaranteed your money back. There were guys that made a kickstarter for a game and used the money hookers and blow.

[opinionated]

Don't misunderstand. I fully respect the right of a company to fire who it wishes. I'm against the media campaigns that caused it. If major media publications have a smear campaign on somebody and a company releases them due to "portrayal" then I have a problem with the media obviously. And outrage from places like neogaf and twitter obviously. The refund thing is a separate issue. He wasnt speaking for the company, he was speaking for himself. I hate the boycott mentality on both sides but I hate the double standard even more.

No, no hard evidence. It's just a guess on my part but it's not an unfounded conclusion pulled out of thin air. I can connect dots. That's true, mighty no 9 was my first and last Kickstarter for this same exact scenario. I didn't ask for a refund but I could have got one at anytime. No matter how badly they trashed their backers they still gave the refund. That's what an honorable company would do.

[bluefox755]

There's not any actual evidence, but it's not that big of a leap when you consider everything that has come out of their PR. While it's not fair to conclude it as fact, it's certainly not unfair to speculate. If I were a betting man, I would absolutely not rule out that their hiring process is less than meritocratic.

[opinionated]

[email protected] Circumstantial evidence at best. It's just a guess lol.

That leaves an interesting question though. We all agree that a company has a right to fire someone but do we all agree that a company has a right to employ someone, regardless of our feelings? What if it was reversed and play-tonic responded to this outrage with "jontron views do not represent the views of our company" then it it go? We see this disclaimer all the time like it's too difficult to be common sense. What do you think the headlines would say if play-tonic told this upset group to fuck off like they do to their other consumers? They would get bombarded. I think they caved and did so easily. You can see it with the "it's not real voice acting guys, it's just noises" comments. They got rid of this dude to shut up a group of people and then upset another group with their public cowardice lol. I can understand why playtonic would try to avoid these people with a simple edit though.

[bluefox755]

I've watched a few interviews with Colin Moriarty after him leaving Kinda Funny, and the things he reveals about the game industry is kind of eye opening. He says that gaming journalism is almost 100% far left, and because of this, everyone thinks the rest of the industry is as well. It helps to explain why a lot of these things keep happening.

[opinionated]

Yeah that was an interesting and unusual interview. I agreed with a lot of what he said besides liking mitt Romney and such. I'm in the same social libertarian, but republican on serious policy mindset. I just don't like the fake republicans (which is the vast majority of them).

[bluefox755]

@opinionated Yeah, I've largely given up on republicans, though I sympathize with them a bit more than democrats because at least they actually talk about things like limited government and preserving constitutional liberties, they just rarely follow though. I worry less about social issues, because I believe that war is largely won already. Everyone in the western world has the same constitutional rights, and anything beyond that seems to involve thought policing or demands for affirmative action.

[DragonKnight]

You need to watch a dev on youtube. His name is Troy Leavitt. He has several videos on the gaming development scene and the levels of consideration they give to SJWs in developing games.

[PixelGateUk]

His slot on Joe Ragon's podcast was pretty great

[earlygreenway]

@opinionated, I rarely agree with you but you're making some great points here. It's a level discussion I rarely see on N4G. It's appreciated.

[opinionated]

👍 cheers. What do you disagree on?

[MetroidFREAK21]

I just refuse to buy the game until a physical Switch version is released.

[Darkfist_Flames]

Meh, im more interested in playing Skylar & Plux.

[DeathtoOtakuDJ]

Oh wow, never heard of it, but nice recommendation (just saw some YT vids).

[Hugodastrevas]

Playtonic refund all of those that want their money back, I mean, what kind of principles do you stand for if your game is funded by "evil white supremacists" uh?
Put your money where your mouth is!

[mastiffchild]

I dunno. Jontron put Playtonic in a position and just because they dont want publicly associating with those views doesnt mean a great deal. Had another voice actor with a lot of subs on youtube, followers on social media espoused equally controversial views at a different end of the political.spectrum theyd possibly have sacked them as well.

For me the issue isnt why they sacked him because business hates to appear radically left OR right wing. It can hurt sales and result in bad PR. The issue IS, however, that the likes of Heir who is arguably much more racist than Jon Jafari was allowed by the games industry to hate all the white people he liked scot free. Racism is wrong, Playtonic shouldnt want anything to do with it, Jontron should have thought more,before speaking because he was bound to cause a fuss with the platform he has, hes naive but Playtonic ought to have done their research first then none of this happens.

I dont think not backing Jafari makes Playtonic leftists or mean they have anything against the right wingers that helped fund their game. Not wanting to be seen as supporting racism, and Jafaris comments and subsequent support of his comments is definitely racist, doesntean anything except Playtonic do not want to be sen as a pro racist company. Youd need to be approaching Hitler levels of right wing policy to not care about projecting a racist image, surely. It dhould be the same for all racism, though, but thats not Playtonics fault.

[Hugodastrevas]

Playtonic is handling all of this like a bull in a china shop. They should just refund the backers that wish it and apologise, but i know they'll double down on it and that's going to hurt them pretty badly! https://youtu.be/sRNDnR9Za4...

[DragonKnight]

"Jontron put Playtonic in a position and just because they dont want publicly associating with those views doesnt mean a great deal."

No he didn't. NeoGaf put Playtonic in a position. NeoGaf is an SJW cesspit looking to punish thought crimes. All Playtonic had to do was issue the following statement.

"The views of Jon "JonTron" Jafari are his alone and do not reflect or represent those of Playtonic Studios."

At that point, if people boycott the game then it's because they care more about politics than the game.

In THIS situation, Playtonic has shown that they are taking a political stance and people are boycotting their mistreatment of JonTron. Playtonic refusing to refund the money merely makes them hypocrites because in one breath they condemn what they perceive to be, but actually isn't, racism but at the same time are willing to accept the money of people they'd call racists for standing in solidarity with someone they already consider racist.

It is always the best course of action to take no action when a vocal minority tries to push you into taking a political stance. Playtonic would have found that there would have been far less regressives boycotting there game than there are JonTron fans and anti-regressives boycotting the game now.

Everyone hates NeoGaf, so it would have been no loss to have that disgusting site boycotting a game.

[rainslacker]

I've noticed in my lifetime that someone's political views is becoming more and more associated with their ability to do a job.

I've found it really sad that people acting like a company somehow supports a certain view if they employ someone has become a way to exert one's own political views, and make attempts at doing a preemtive censorship on those who differ from others.

Realistically, within any company, you can find multiple viewpoints that wont line up with your own, but you tolerate it, because that's what civilized people do. That doesn't mean the company itself supports any or all of those viewpoints.

So that means that he's being fired for expressing those feelings, not just believing them, and that is a form of censorship. In many states in the US, that's actually illegal. however, in this case, since he's a contractor, that aspect isn't applicable.

There was a time when you didn't have to agree with someone, but you'd support their right to say it without going to extremes to destroy their lives. JonTron will be OK overall, but there are plenty of others who don't bounce back...typically those who aren't popular.

PlayTronics certainly has the right to remove JonTron for the reason they stated. I won't deny that. But at the same time, it seems a lot of people aren't discussing the fact that they shouldn't have to do so to make the statement that they don't support his view points and seem like they're somehow tolerant.

Unless the person commenting is speaking for the company itself, then what they say politically is moot. Obviously, if they're in a position of power, and you don't agree with them, you don't have to support the company, and can express that anywhere, but the utter rampant entitlement that goes on to make one seem like they are somehow the voice of all to twists these companies hands to respond is the real problem.

It's just not necessary for these companies to respond in such matters. These controversies are flashes in the pan. They die quickly, rarely make mainstream press without some press actually pushing it more than it needs to be(Gamergate being a movement against women for example), and ultimately, has absolutely little to no affect on the actual sale of a product. The transgression in question has to be especially egregious for it to have an affect, and too many companies are just trying to avoid controversy, instead of simply doing what's right, and support what most consider to be the most important tenant of freedom, and that's that one can have their opinion, and express that opinion without being censored. While this isn't a free speech issue, the meaning at it's core is the same. You take away someone's job, even if it's not that big of a deal this time for JonTron, you are basically saying that if you have a certain opinion, there are circumstances beyond just having someone disagree with you.

[S-Word]

This game will be trash just like Mighty No. 9 (even more so in this case).

[chuckyj1]

Stupid reason to fire someone... But, honestly, I wasn't going to buy the game anyways... You have to be careful about political beliefs these days it's a shame.