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Microsoft vetoed a black woman on cover for Fable II

Ex-Lionhead art director recalls marketing department "just didn't get it," insisted on a white male for Xbox 360 RPG.

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gamesindustry.biz
Z5013311d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

Sad.

EDIT: (I didn't want to just s**t on MS)
After reading a bunch of comments saying it's "demographics" not racism. Coupled with (from article) "They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog"

A couple questions arose.
1. People didn't like Princess and the Frog because the lead was black? How do they know this? source/proof
2. If people didn't like Princess and the Frog because the lead was black. Isn't that sorta racist/bigoted itself?
3. "We know what sells" - How would they know? Focus groups? What would someone in a focus group have to say? 'I don't like that cover because it's a black female' Isn't that sorta racist/bigoted too?

I've personally haven't played Fable 2, but I was under the impression that you could create your character OR alter the character appearance/gender. If not, then this ISN'T racist/bigoted on MS part.
BUT... If it's true that people/gamers won't buy a game because there's a black female on the cover. What does that say about said "demographic"???

How many people do you guys know have admitted they're racist? I assume, none to not many. That must mean racist don't exist, right? Think about it.

The "Sad" part is, the MS guy basically said 'A huge portion of our audience won't buy this game JUST BECAUSE there's a black female on the cover'

Retroman3311d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

Know thy truth and it Shall set you free indeed.

and they say Discrimination do not exist anymore.

what difference do it make what race on the cover jacket money still green.

Fable 2 will have less sales because person of color on FRONT cover really???

here it is 2016 we still have hatred of a human being color no matter how hard that person learn his/her craft,skill,trade still treated like mud, wages still lower than white co-worker with SAME education level.
in the white world a color person is good long as he has a bat,basketball,football in his hands, tell stale jokes as a comedian.
other than that he's a non-factor body to the white race there are people of color everywhere around the world but according to the "white race" there is!!! no other race but the white race. as a child watching tv Wild kingdom with Marlon Perkin, National geographic countries around the world all i seen was Europeans except occasionally Africans in Africa but portray as (SAVAGES) uneducated wild men. but... as i mature and learnt the REAL Savages are (white americans). you see it in classic western cowboy movies. disguise as indians, "REAL" indians in background while white americans dress,painted red as Indians in fore-front making real indians look bad as savages. "REAL Indians" are peaceful,love nature,love people,helpful, beautiful spirit. POWWOW is awesome. Asian people,Chinese,Japanese people,Haitians,Africans,Somal ians afro-americans did not exist in my mine back in the day no broadcast co. would show anyone of color on tv back in the 60's all this from "MY" experience. so, people of color dont exist in leading role in video games nor in movies........................ . . ....it is WHAT it is and how it is,and always will be that way. those of you think im closed minded think again...........YOU ARE to truth and facts of life.

all 69 disagree is white gamers 26 non white gamers agree.............see discrimination is alive on here as well.

if you cant speak your mind why be alive??
if i said i was white would my disagrees change?? probably!
white americans "CAN'T see the truth with white privilege that others don't have or born with.

im a Asian

truth be known

Lord_Sloth3311d ago

I'm sorry but isn't the hero of Fable 2 white no matter what? Why would the cover sport a black character to represent a white hero? That actually doesn't make sense.

I don't agree that a black character would negatively impact sales but in this case it's kind of false advertising.

thekhurg3311d ago

LMAO

Who cares. Video game cover.

BrandanT3311d ago

If race doesn't matter to anyone, then why do people care if he/she is white, black, yellow, red, brown, or polka dot for God's sake!

343_Guilty_Spark3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

@Lord_Sloth

Pretty sure with a black female on the cover, the game's character would be black and female.

Grap3311d ago Show
JackStraw3311d ago Show
zb1ftw7773311d ago Show
zeuanimals3311d ago

@lord_sloth:

You realize you're able to choose between different sexes for your character, meaning they could also allow you to change the race of the characters as well.

And to the people who are saying it'd be discriminating against white people if they put a black character on the cover instead, did you even read the article? The devs were told that it has to be a white male on the cover. There were heated arguments about this. They were told "no black people on the cover", "it's not what sells, just look at the most unsuccessful Disney movie of all time, The Princess and the Frog". But no, apparently that's not discrimination. But simply putting a black person on the cover? Apparently that's discrimination to you.

JackBNimble3311d ago

@ gt67
You are just as much of a Bigot as any other racist out there , and what you said is highly offensive .

sammarshall1023311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

I couldn't care less who is on the cover just make the game good

Alexander1Nevermind3310d ago

How can we embrace diversity without actually being diverse,,,,,, Shame on a major company like MS if this is true.

Kingthrash3603310d ago

I've been black my entire life.
What I've seen from the perspective of being black in america:
1.Every race has racist people.. black white hispanics Asians ...no matter what there are idiots in all races.
2. Blacks suffer from racism the most. That's just fact. I can't count how many times I was falsly accused of stealing or followed in stores or pulled over or refused seating in restaurants.....alot...Like at least one of these twice a week alot.
3. Blacks don't care. It become the normal sadly. Living here in America where you were born and raised but still get looked at like you don't belong are the norm. We are ok with it. We feel bad for racist people missing out on how awsome other races are.

That said...so whaaaaatt! This would have matter more back when it was first released or before...but now? Like a decade later? So what. Racism is alive and well sadly but I see tons of improvement in all people in the US...all I ask is keep the RACIST BS OUT OF MY GAMING LIFE!

stuna13310d ago

People talking about People don't think!? Here's something to think about! Maybe the black woman on the cover was the antagonist???

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SonyWarrior3310d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

i know i personally wouldnt buy a game with a minority on the cover. the cover should be used to promote what the game is about not about being politically correct.

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iTechHeads3311d ago

Not really. How many black women do you think play video games? Its is surely a very small amount compared to the typical white male gamer that plays games.

Its not racism. Its catering to the games biggest potential audience.

jholden32493311d ago

^^^^ This

True equality is true reprentation of the audience. Pull up the stats on how many Fable gamers are black women. Doubt it's even close to a majority. It's not about race, it's about who is buying and playing the game.

KwietStorm_BLM3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

Oh so that's why most game leads are white males. They're just catering to the majority and ignoring the rest of the human race. I get it now. Makes so much sense. Just like movies. And awards. And advertisements. And job promotions.

..............

BrandanT3310d ago

Kwiet, affirmative action says hi.

Erik73573311d ago

Pretty sure sims had gay marriage before fable 2 but idk

DragonKnight3310d ago

What's sad is A) Current year arguments and B) That suits and representation ideologues are still so out of touch with actual gamers that they are not yet aware that we couldn't give a rat's a$$ about who is on the cover.

Is the game good? Then we'll find out and buy it, never once caring about box art UNLESS it's a Collector's Edition, then we care for money purposes only.

And for games with character creation, either go the way of Soulsborne and have a generic, androgynous, fully armored protagonist on the cover; or put multiple characters of varying ethnicities, genders, or races on the cover. That would be accurate to the game.

Either way, stop feeding the SJWs because they never shut up about it and then we end up getting TrigglyPuff.

https://youtu.be/4uPXZG304d...

Spenok3310d ago

Doing the research of about 2 min... it turns out Howl's Moving Castle is their worst performer, although that's a technicality, as they didn't make it, only help produce it for the states. If we're talking about actual Disney made properties, Teacher's Pet from 2004 makes this list, at 6.5 million on a 10 million budget.

Now how about we delve a little further and look at one of their actually well known movies. The rescuers down under fits this bill, although there are several other disney properties that fit this bill truly. The Princess and the Frog did quite well for itself, finishing currently at ~100 million.

NOW on to MS. Even if the statement were true, they have every right to decide what goes on the cover of their games, regardless of what that reason is. If what they said is true, it's actually not racist of THEM to say that, but racist of the consumers who wouldn't buy it for that reason.

To 'try' and answer your question.

1) I've no idea, but it's BS based on the info I gave above. I'm an adult white male and I enjoyed that movie.
2) Technically no, the definition of racist is to believe one race is superior to another. So not liking it because she's black doesn't make you a racist UNLESS you hold the view of blacks being of a lesser race at the same time. This answer could get ridiculously long to be fair, but I'll leave it at bigoted fits the bill of what you described more.
3) Focus groups would be one of the answers, sales history of their own, and rival companies. However the second part of your question is entirely irrelevant to the first part, as Disney isn't responsible for what focus groups would say.

To answer another part of your comment you were able to fully customize your character, to include gender and race.

Long story short on this whole article, it was written to create controversy over something LONG past, and ridiculous. This website that very few have ever heard of cherry picked this portion of the interview from Eurogamer just to piss people off. Racism exists on a personal level, plain and simple.

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thorstein3310d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

Princess and the Frog:
Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $104,400,899 39.1%
+ Foreign: $162,644,866 60.9%
= Worldwide: $267,045,765

Doesn't sound too shabby to me. It is a great film. I watched it with my white wife, white kids, and white self. Why wouldn't I, it is a great film.

Sorry I didn't stay segregated like I was supposed to, 'merica.

BTW Assassin's Creed Liberation (Black Woman on cover and protagonist) is considered a success.

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BrandanT3311d ago

I guess it represents the majority: a white male. The only demographic that is not considered a minority.

zb1ftw7773311d ago

And the demographic that is most discriminated against.

BrandanT3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

So true, the whole equality argument is a bunch of bull. It's more like role-reversal. What's a man suppose to do when everything is potentially racist?

I'm honestly scared of applying for colleges. I'm a white guy, and the whole affirmative action thing makes it harder to get into a better school. Even if my life is worse off than that of a minority.

Zeref3311d ago

white male the most discriminated against? how ignorant...

game4funz3311d ago

Agreed. If you mistreat a white person being white... Everything is fine.
If you mistreat a black person being white yourself.... All hell breaks loose.

Same goes now with all kinds of things like homosexuality etc... Nothing will happen if you mistreat someone based on religion their religion especially if their Catholic.... Unless of course they're Muslim.... Then all hell breaks loose again....

Lots of discrimination against the ones assumed to be doing the discriminating.

FunkyBoy3311d ago

Boo hoo buddy, this only been happening for the past couple years and I admit it's been going to far. But u guys only been scratching the surface. I'm Asian lived mostly in southern states, TN, KY, and IN. Experienced this throughout my life thanks to most media and most white people in general. Not so fun is it

Trez12343311d ago

You must be joking with that statement

OverdosedWitDopeness3311d ago

Lol are u serious? So many closet racists in the N4G gaming community from looking at the agrees to disagrees SMH.

KwietStorm_BLM3311d ago

It's depressing that this society has twisted your mind so much to believe what you just said.

SirJohnnyVincent3310d ago

haha you have no idea what discrimination is do you?

BrandanT3310d ago

Exactly, people do not even care enough to hear out my story. My god, are you all so close minded to not even give my words some credence.
It's like back in the day when black didn't have much of a voice, but I guess everyone will just see me as some damn privileged white regardless of situation.

UnwanteDreamz3310d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

This is typical and sad. Victims of descrimination? Do you pathetic people have any sense of history? Brandan T you think affirmative action keeps you down? It was the answer to descrimination. Blame the generations that came before us for treating minorities like less than human beings. You do realise that minorities were kept from enough opportunity that the federal gov had to make laws to help. So entrenched in racial hatred and nepotism that is the history of my nation. Equality a joke? Everything Racist? You sound like an extremist who lives in a bubble. My only solace is knowing your mindset is becoming so irrelevant that hopefully in another generation or two it might be seen for what it is. Ignorant racebaiting covert racial predudice.

To the other commenters above who also took issue with this. N4G is a reflection of gaming demographics. White males make up the majority. I'm cool with that and have been my entire life but you wont have a meaningful discussion on race issues here. What you will get is the kind of race baiting Sharpton would admire.

Just remember that these kinds of sentiments are becoming more rare. They will get louder in their deaththrows but the outcome is worth the annoyance .

BrandanT3310d ago

Closet racist? What the hell is with the slander and libel?
I just hate laws that give anyone else a better advantage. All I want is for everyone in this world to have equal playing ground. I wish everyone saw each other eye to eye. I don't like gender and ethnic related scholarships, I don't like how men get the short end of the stick with women in courts, and I don't like how women still need to ask for equal wages even after all this time.

You know why I don't care for race? Martin Luther King Jr. Said it best. "Judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character."

UnwanteDreamz3310d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

@Brandan

As long as you continue to ignore facts history and context then I would say closet bigot. Not racist. I know white people experience discrimination and it's wrong but perpetuation of the myth that white people are just as or more discriminated against is not helping anyone yourself included.

I hope you get into the college you deserve. I hope that you don't rush to blame affirmative action if you don't. You may see affirmative action as something that lets people "cut in line" but it was created to let people in the line. What you see as preferred treatment others see as lvling the playing field. I hope to see it disappear too one day because it is not needed.

BrandanT3310d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

But I'm not trying to ignore history. I just see that we're such a progressed society since then. I'm just in high school and I could easily see that in this generation everyone seem to see each other as equal. It's starting to look like everyone has mutual love for one of another.
I just think these laws are starting to have less of place now. I know why they were needed then, but so much has changed in the decades since.

I'd be happy to actually share my story with anyone who will pm me.

UnwanteDreamz3310d ago

@Brandan

I think we agree on that then. Your generation is so much more tolerant then my own. I see it in my own highschool aged kids. Some of the protections given to minorities are outdated some of the laws are becoming unnecessary. I do hope I haven't come off as a person that doesn't understand that it can be hard to be white in todays society. I don't envy the flak sometimes thrown your way. It's wrong to judge people on skin color afterall.

I just think more understanding and less pointing fingers about who has it worse is what's needed. I wish you the best.

BrandanT3310d ago

I apologize as well. I always had trouble coming off as too blunt, and maybe that's why I don't always seem reasonable.

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SonyWarrior3310d ago

not considered a minority because they make up like 80-90% of the population in the us.... its simple math really

BrandanT3310d ago

That's not considering children, right?

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yarbie10003311d ago ShowReplies(17)
jb2273311d ago

Yeah they are great at making shady moves, glossing over details to get fans & media to fill in best case scenario ideas behind them, only for the real truth to come out months later to be swept immediately under the rug.

Case in point: IGN has an article up with details on the Lionhead closure (that for some reason doesn't seem to be submitted to N4G even though it is more interesting than half of the recent news on the site)...the article says that MS receiving tons of letters of intent from publishers wanting to buy & save Lionhead, but MS refused all offers because these publishers reasonably wanted the IP Fable to go along with it. Ok, fair enough, it's MS' ip to do as they please, so if they'd rather leave the flesh & blood people out to dry in order to hang onto a property that they may never do anything with, that's their prerogative.

Where it gets really fishy is the Legends fiasco. I saw tons of MS supporters on here saying that it's Lionhead's fault the studio is closing because they decided to go the Free to Play route which resulted in a game that Fable fans didn't want...they wanted a proper sequel. When I suggested that maybe Lionhead didn't have a say in the matter, I was told that I'm crazy, that MS gives devs ALL the freedom. Well today we found out that Lionhead wanted to make Fable 4...they had a story & characters & art all ready to go, made the pitch to MS, and MS refused it, shooting it down because they said that they wanted Lionhead to be going the "games as service" route, hence Legends.

So ultimately the scenario that myself & a few others suggested, that MS forced Lionhead into making a game they didn't want to make, only to turn around & cancel the game & close the studio when said game turned out poorly. So that's definitive proof that Lionhead's closure was no fault of their own, it was clearly a result of restrictive mismanagement on MS' part. Really classy move. Wish this stuff would be brought out further in the open so things like this don't happen behind closed doors in the gaming industry anymore, but console warriors continue to shield & protect the people who are actively hurting their favorite pasttime, all for the sake of pointless competition.

Magnes3311d ago

@Dookie_monster it's a shame we the bubble system went away now trolls like you get to run ramped least everyone on n4g knows you for what you are

Hold_It3311d ago

I just came here to say you have the perfect dislike to like ratio. 9/11

That is all.

Godmars2903311d ago

MS certainly didn't want to risk the IP going multi - onto the PS4 - especially after cancelling a title.

game4funz3311d ago

You are stretching the truth. No where does it say they didn't want to not do the game they were creating.

They got bored.... Thats their problem... Not Microsofts. They had over 3 years to finish a simple game. They're currently full of excuses... Not to. Mention contradiction.

When the game was canceled they came out saying how no one saw it coming. That they wanted really much to finish the game etc etc etc.... Now the story changes to that they never wanted to create the game to begin with and it's Microsoft fault etc etc. And that they could see it coming but didn't expect not to finish the game.

Haru3311d ago

Microsoft is the worst publisher ever

CrimzonRazor3310d ago

They closed lionhead because they dumped a large amount of money into legend and the game was a huge turd its called cutting your losses.

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Imalwaysright3310d ago

2pacalypsenow

Europe isn't a country, it's a continent and Europe more racist than the States? Is that a joke?

Z5013311d ago

US geeks will buy a game with a 'blue dragon' on the cover, but a black woman on the cover... Ewwww, f**k no!
WTF!

lastking953311d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

Sad truth be told.....that probably true. People are racist to go along with sexist and I'd bet money some wouldn't have bought fable had it been a black woman

Did i say all. Do your eyes not see that four letter word "some"

exkalibur973311d ago

love you just assume everyone is racist and sexist lol we had a meeting and decided woman and people of color dont matter XD the fuck outta here with that shit, if isis doesnt represent islam a few racist and sexist guys shouldnt represent games now should it?

pasta_spice3311d ago

But even if racist/sexist people DIDN'T buy the game based solely on the cover, I doubt it would have much of an effect on sales. In the end, they're only hurting themselves by not buying a potentially good game based on the race or gender of the protagonist.

gangsta_red3311d ago

You'd be surprised.

I mean look at the flack people gave Star Wars when they saw a Black Storm Trooper. Then you get people going ape shit when their favorite white comic book character is portrayed by a black actor.

Even still you have to wonder how many african/americans have graced the covers of video games that wasn't related to sports.

Shame, MS should have grown some balls and just did it instead of conforming to the status norm.

SuicidalTendencies3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

The comic book characters have more to do with staying true to the source material. There is no good reason to change the race or gender of a character that has been around for decades. People would prefer they just create new comic book characters who are black or whatever instead of changing the old ones. Shit like that does more damage than good and fuels the fires of racism or sexism.

Edit: Meant decades, not centuries. My mind must have been elsewhere.

garrettbobbyferguson3311d ago

The excuse was that people are racist. Except people gave zero flack over Lando (Billy Dee Williams) another black dude. So how would you explain that?

gangsta_red3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

@Suicidal

Source material? That would hold true if the source material required that character be a certain race/ethnicity/religion because it directly ties to their origin or powers. For instance it would make no sense for Black Panther to be played by a white person since he is of African decent. But Nick Fury, Johnny Storm, Deadshot...it makes no difference what color they are since there backstory has nothing to do with where they are from and what color they could be.

@garrettbobbyferguson

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Lando was a bit character that no one really cares about. But there were people upset that a storm trooper was black.

Point is there are people that get upset about race even in this day and age.

There was a recent ad campaign by Old Navy that showed an interracial family.

http://www.today.com/style/...

It's a shame that something that is really so common (at least in Cali) could even spark debate, support or outrage.

And I'm out of bubbles.

343_Guilty_Spark3311d ago

@SuicidalTendencies

Unless their ethnicity is crucial to their origin story then a character can be portrayed by any race.

Spiderman for example is just some nerdy guy who happened to get bit by a radioactive spider. He could honestly be black, white, yellow, red, green whatever.

But

Black Panther has to be African because he is the King of an African Country. The story wouldn't work at all if he were a white guy.

garrettbobbyferguson3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

"Lando was a bit character that nobody cares about"

Piss off with this stupid crap. People loved Lando. Not to mention he even went on to pilot the Falcon for the Rebellion. Once again, no one complained about this. People dislike Boyega because he's not exactly very easy on the eyes.

game4funz3311d ago

Actually portraying an originally white superhero as suddenly being black is racist indeed... Why not leave the white superhero stay white and create a new black superhero... What is so difficult in doing that... It makes us feel discriminated against.

zeuanimals3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

Alternatively, Steve Roger's has to be white because he grew up in the Great Depression as a poor Irish Catholic kid, and his Catholicism helped make him the man he is. Same with Matt Murdock, Irish Catholic except not born in the Great Depression.

Other people donning the Daredevil or Captain America names can be whatever else that they are, but Steve Roger's and Matt Murdock have to be white, Irish looking people.

@Garrett:

And people dislike Boyega because he's one of the main characters and he's the first character we ever get to see from the trailers. Lando was largely a side character. Certain audiences don't mind minorities in minor roles (get it?), but it doesn't go well with those audiences when the minorities are the leads.

@Godmars:

Characters have to be as they were originally envisioned? I guess all of those retcons never happened.

Godmars2903311d ago

@343_Guilty_Spark:

Peter Parker's Spiderman is white for the same reason that T'Challa as the Black Panther is black: its how the characters were originally envisioned.

If Miles Moralas had been introduced back in the when the original Spiderman was introduced, and became popular, THEN there would be no issue with him today. Much in the same way as the Phantom, a white superhero based in Africa, has remained popular and likely served as inspiration for Black Panther. Cause that how Marvel do back in the day. They took "inspiration" from heroes from other established comic companies.

The reason such has become issue now was making the Human Torch black when he was an established white character and the whole stink with Lady Thor cause she was literally taking Thor's name while people who have yet to buy an issue gave the comic community the middle finger over the whole thing.

With Fable MS had opportunity to effect the series, make it open ended and multifaceted by not going to what they were making into established tropes, and they didn't. End of story.

That such a choice proved to be the end of Fable as Lionhead tried to go beyond the character established from the first game is besides the point.

lawgone3310d ago

It's funny you point out the flack "people" gave Star Wars for having a female lead and black storm trooper but fail to mention just how tiny that population of complainers was. If it truly were a large group it wouldn't have been viewed by the larges f***inf audience ever. Clearly, the vast majority of people had no issue with it! But hey, let's talk about the tiny groups and make like it's everyone.

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ShaunCameron3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

Yet they had no problem buying a game with a Black male lead called Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

cyberwaffles3311d ago

Which profiles blacks as low life gang bangers and criminals.

SuicidalTendencies3311d ago

I bought Remember Me which had a half black chick on the cover. Does that count?

jer11223311d ago

I just feel bad that you bought that game period.

iTechHeads3311d ago

Having a black woman on the cover implies the game is FOR black women. It is an RPG after. (Role Playing)

Surely you can understand why most casual gamers wouldn't look at the game twice right? Calling it racism is just ignorance. Its not racism, its demographics.

zombiewombie3311d ago

Lol, what?! So Mirrors Edge is for Asian women only? Wtf kinda logic is that?

Retroman3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

Why do it need to be FOR black women only??? Fable is a RPG game for anyone with Green money.
ooh! i cant buy fable because my money not tan,yellow,black,white......sh eesh you ignorant people crack me up with your foolishness.

so, when general public see a afro-american in a toyota comercial do that mean the demographic they reaching for only for people of color?? and when asians in comercial the demographic only for them but not ALL people regardless what race they are not to buy that car because asians is the target??? so if a Indian actor in a Campbell chicken soup comercial for colds campbell reaching out to indians only no one else with flu-running nose just the demographic of indians. no one else can buy the soup because no one else has a cold because they are white. if Advertiszers think like that. rest of the world is DOOM!!
i notice inner city street banners you drive by advertise "BEER/CIGARTTES" all over the place but in a ALL middle class white neighborhood street banners you drive by only advertise "Wendy's,McDonalds,Al 's auto,Shucks,Big Red supermarket etc.. never alcohol ,cigarettes,wine,beer. you guys can be blind if you want but in REALITY it is as i said. Racism at it's Purest.

if you can't speak your mind why in hell come here??

im a Asian

iceman063310d ago

So, if they would've went with the dragon idea, who would the game be for again???
As for your demographics idea, you sound like the corporate big wigs that continue to justify this practice. This thought actually diminishes the demographic into small minded, myopic, bigoted people BECAUSE of the assumption that people wouldn't buy it with a black woman on the cover.

Hold_It3311d ago

Blue Dragon was an awful game sadly. I saw the Toriyama artwork and thought it'd be cool, but man, that game was garbage.

rainslacker3311d ago

People tend to buy things that appeal to them. The old adage "Judging a book by it's cover" rings very true in the consumer space.

A black character isn't going to appeal to some, and may even turn some away. A white character is fairly neutral in terms of appeal because it's so common. Thinking on it, the only one I can even recall off the top of my head was the cover for Remember Me, and she was mixed race, with the picture lightened enough to not be as apparent, although it fit in with the look of the game. Any other black character on a cover is typically seen in the background, or with a group of a nice racial mix of characters.

It's sad, but that's just kind of how things are in the real world.

This, I don't believe, was a move made due to racism, rather made due to marketing trying to appeal to the most number of people. Most producers or publishers probably aren't as concerned with racial representation or issues, but instead pay attention to what will appeal to the most people.

pasta_spice3311d ago

To be fair, racism (or at least prejudice) does play a part in marketing decisions. White is seen as 'neutral' because, historically, it has been white people who have been in charge of marketing departments and who started that whole 'white people appeal to the masses' belief. Even in countries where white people aren't the majority, you'll still see generically-attractive white people used in advertising because it is seen as a safe image. Marketing is affected by society's beliefs, but society's beliefs can also be affected by marketing. Hell, I'm sure nobody in the 80s genuinely thought frizzy hair and huge shoulderpads were attractive until fashion mags started telling people they were.

Public perceptions can change like the wind, so there's really no reason that a white protagonist should appeal to the masses any more than a black or Asian one...even in a country where white is the majority. But marketing departments are too scared to take that risk and challenge popular concepts to actually do anything about it. Sadly, we've heard plenty of stories about publishers demanding devs change the race of their non-white protagonist to appeal to the masses, or of non-white actors having difficulty getting jobs because studios don't think they will appeal to the masses.

rainslacker3311d ago

Marketing wasn't as sophisticated back in the day as it is now, which is why many of the things we see as typical or common place now are in place. Since it was typically white men making things, they'd go with standard cultural norms that were pretty generic, for both race and gender. Nowadays in advertising you'll see more variety depending on the product and the market it's trying to appeal to. For instance, in the past decade or so, McDonald's commercials have more African Americans in them, because they're trying to appeal to that segment more.

Anyhow, as it stands now, it's just become normal in our society to see this kind of thing. Where it started is kind of moot at this point, because cultural norms are ingrained over generations. Perceptions can change, yes, but people in general don't change as quickly. Perceptions of the gay community for instance has become more acceptable in society, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from being adverse to it, and because of that, when it comes to marketing, it's usually left out, because marketers want to send positive messages, not controversial ones...most of the time anyways.

Marketing departments aren't scared to take risks, They simply go with what works. Marketing isn't really about taking risks, it's about getting a product noticed, and expressing what that product is about. In some cases, using a minority can do that, but more often than not, it doesn't. Where it makes sense to use a minority, and if a minority is a target market for a product, then sure, they'd use a minority. Otherwise, there's no point in stirring the pot, because most products aren't put out there to make a political statement.

So I'll ask the question, what would be gained by using a minority just for the sake of using a minority?

As far as the changes devs are asked to change. Yes, and sadly, that's not likely to change to such a great degree anytime in the near future. However, when it comes to producers, they know the generic appeals to more people, and their motivation is more selling the product than being racist.

What I often see in conversations like this is people consider the current political trends and what is considered to be progressive. However, when it comes to marketing, and even things like movies or games, it's all based on analytical data which is proven to sell products, and until some metric comes up that shows representing a minority on a product is actually beneficial for a particular case, not much is likely to change. "Risks" do need to be taken to gather that data, but since it's the producers and publishers money, they get to decide if that risk is acceptable.

Overall, I don't think that taking such risks would be overly detrimental to game sales or appeal, but I'm not the one making the decisions.

Fin_The_Human3311d ago

Same with Japanese gamers... Put a black woman on the cover of Final Fantasy and see what happens.

iceman063310d ago

Actually, in my experiences with Japanese culture, black people (women especially) are considered cool and edgy. There's an entire trendy movement in Tokyo where Japanese women excessively tan themselves, braid their hair, and wear gaudy clothing in the misguided attempt to represent some aspect of black women.

3310d ago
+ Show (6) more repliesLast reply 3310d ago
cyberwaffles3311d ago

2pacalypsenow = racist.

If only the shoe were on the other foot would you understand.

2pacalypsenow3311d ago

I'm South American yet I don't bitch and moan because Latinos are not all over the games. Or go out and destroy my whole city just because some criminal got killed

3311d ago
cyberwaffles3311d ago (Edited 3311d ago )

Do you know much about the American history? That white colonialists took over the land from Natives, assimilated people, then later enslaved Africans for years on plantation fields and through human trafficking? You know about the apartheid that has been riddled throughout our history?

Then when equal opportunities ushered in and abolished slavery the establishment still imposed jim crow laws and segregation? Do you understand how hard it is for a race to come to terms to a ruling class that has historically oppressed them? Especially when even today minorities have higher incarceration rates despite doing roughly the same amount of crime as whites?

I know a majority of the users on here are white as evident by the disagrees and the typical privileged lifestyle most of you have inherited. I'll just say this: Most of the the world HATES racist white Americans (NATO included) and watch the Africans, Indians (from India), and Chinese rule the world someday. The shoe will be on the other foot.

Last edit: I'm surprised as a latino it doesn't enrage you seeing that much of the land in Mexico and the southern parts of America were once owned by latinos. I'm mix so I don't need to get into argument like this but it seems a bit uncle tomish to be so naive of the blatant racism by the establishment. Then again I can't speak for behalf on South America.

edit: @Pocky. Your profile pic shows your white. Again, you wouldn't understand it unless you lived through it. But that's ok, I'm about done with this site. I'm going back to my government access forums. I don't need to get into debates on a dumb gaming web site.

edit @ Bruce

You're splitting hairs. You admit there are still struggles concerning racism so how does that moot my point?

@game4funz

You're actually right. I believe there should be a balance of the two. We should feel confident to express ourselves yet at the same time be conscientious of others hence humility. There's a saying that if your mouth doesn't agree with your heart its a sin (don't take this too seriously.)

At the same time it shouldn't be an invitation to defacing and slandering people. People seem to confuse freedom of speech with libel.

@ghost

You know how much of a slap in the face it is to say we should thank whites for our liberation when they were the one's who initially enslaved us? lol you really are a troll. Oh don't forget Tubman and others who simply ran away from their slave owners. They didn't need your help. I also love the fact how Texas schools are trying to revise their history books concerning the confederates. They don't want them to be remembered as racist slave owners so just like the rest of the information taught in schools there is a case of revisionist history.

Or how the blacks and native indians played integral roles in the world wars yet didn't get the decorations they deserved until years later with the Clinton administration. You're just a douche.

Wingsfan243311d ago

Lol - I know a majority of the users on here are white as evident by the disagrees and the typical privileged lifestyle most of you have inherited. - while trying to bash white people for "racisim" you go ahead and make a general comment like that. Because people disagreed with your ignorant statement, they're immediately white? And they're privileged? I guess they're racist too, why not?

This is the problem with people. Everyone has a side, everyone is offended by things that are utterly meaningless like the cover of this video game. Big, freaking deal. If they put a black, yellow, white or purple person on the cover, what does it matter? If it really bothers you or anyone that much, you must really get offended quite easily.

In the context of the game, iirc there was no black main character, so why would they market such a character and then not have said character in the game. This is literally a story written to drum up controversy and that's about it really. Was super surprised to see this come from Gameindustry.biz...

3311d ago
game4funz3311d ago

Political correctness strips people of freedom. Fact. Now we all have to watch out for what we say and how or possibly be imprisoned.

Racism doesn't exist. Only the sense of superiority. Want to get rid of racism? Learn humility... Then it won't matter what race, height, sexual orientation someone has.

Society doesn't need political correctness... Just humility.

Gh05t3311d ago

@cyberwaffles

Yeah I totally forgot the part where the minorities on their own with no help from those racist white colonials were able to all the sudden get any sort of freedom, which war was that again where the blacks stood up and fought the white devil away for their freedoms, must have overlooked that chapter in my history book... thats right, as much as you hate white people it was not without the help of those of us who know its wrong to own people and enslave people that you even have the chance to complain about this crap.

I love how most minorities think they just stood up on their own and did this all themselves without help from whitey :)

You're welcome by the way :o*

Im going to go get some popcorn now, I like shows like this.

Ashmedae3311d ago (Edited 3310d ago )

On third thought...

@cyberwaffles and others

Have you heard of the Atlantic slave trade? I'm guessing not judging by your posts. Just a quick FYI: In the early 1800s NIGERIANS were selling other Nigerians as slaves to Europeans and the likes. The Ashante in Ghana earned much of their wealth back in the day by capturing/kidnapping other Africans and selling them as slaves. Do I need to go on with other examples? It wasn't just "the white man" taking part in slavery. Africans were just as guilty.

Do yourself a favour and educate yourself first before you go posting.

3311d ago
khinter3310d ago

dammit, i accidentally up voted this comment. I thought you were kidding... sadly not.

lawgone3310d ago

Cyberwaffles, your long and rambling comment has some real gems in there. Thanks for opening your mouth and proving how ignorant you and hate-filled you are. But please, go on and blame your failures on your version of history.

Gh05t3310d ago

Do you know how insulting it is to have a bunch of people like you throw away the FACT white people aren't a bunch of racists and lead in the fight to stop slavery. I love Tubman, she was an amazing abolitionist but you have to have rocks for brains if you don't think she needed white people... Think about it, where did she run to? Who's houses did she hide in? Didn't need white people... You are a piece of work man. And about that confederate war was all about slavery thing, maybe you need to open a history book again but let me throw two dates out there for you. The American Civil War started in 1861, and the Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, so yeah not about slavery, it's about state rights but if you were an American by more than just birth you would get that. You have just been drinking the divisive koolaid from your echo chambers of hatred.

And yes I'm a trolling douche, but it's better than being a muppet sheep who believes that all people of a certain color are inherently racist.

PistolsAtDawn3310d ago

@cyber ...you do realize you are being wildly racist right? Your ignorance is so enormous I dont even know where to start. So ill just say ALL groups of people have performed atrocious acts...not just white people. White people weren't the first...arent the last and aren't the worst slave owners....EVEN IN THE US the first slave owner was a black man...Spaniards were the first to come and kill/take over US from the natives....first recorded history of Slaving was in Egypt when the Nubians had Jews build pyramids. Your stat about equal crime vs prison population is clearly out of your ass....go to the FBI website....you'll see.

The fact that you keep telling people how they don't know what its like to suffer like a minority....then immediately turn around and tell every white person how spoiled they are to be white....is massively ignorant. It appears that you are in fact the biggest racist here. Please take a step back

+ Show (10) more repliesLast reply 3310d ago
3311d ago Replies(2)
babadivad3311d ago

2pacalypsenow = Awesome album

PistolsAtDawn3310d ago

Why wasn't there a Latino on the cover? RACIST ALBUM!!! :)

kevinsheeks3310d ago

You've almost derped enough to warrant a reply lmao ,but i like ignorance so continue.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 3310d ago
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70°

How Does The Witcher 4 Look That Good? CD Projekt Red and Epic Games Explain

While it may not have been The Witcher 4 gameplay, the Unreal Fest 2025 tech demo for CD Projekt Red's latest gave us a good idea of how the finished game might look. We talked to the developers, as well as Epic Games' Unreal Engine team, to find out exactly how the upcoming open-world RPG looks so incredible.

140°

Introducing Project Defiant, the first wireless fight stick designed by Sony

First look at the upcoming controller, which uses PlayStation Link technology to deliver wireless connectivity with ultra-low latency for fighting games.

Read Full Story >>
blog.playstation.com
darthv721d 10h ago

Interesting.... I'll get one.

1d 6h ago
Babadook71d 6h ago (Edited 1d 6h ago )

Great for Marvel Tokon Fighting
Souls (which looked amazing).

Disccordia1d 2h ago

It can also be used wired which is fairly important to note. Anybody using this thing competitively won't go anywhere near wireless.

170°

CD Projekt RED History Suggests The Witcher 4 Demo May Be More Marketing Than Gameplay

The history of CD Projekt RED suggests that the recently shown demo for The Witcher 4 may be more marketing than actual gameplay.

Read Full Story >>
twistedvoxel.com
Sonyslave31d 17h ago

Not only CDPR but Epic Games as well i still haven't seen any game with that fidelty of that Ps5 tech demo .. that was 2020

VenomUK1d 9h ago (Edited 1d 9h ago )

Digital Foundry in its reaction video said they believe the demo reflects real performance, as overstating it’s competence on PS5 could bring significant risks to Epic Games’ shareholders and legal risks.

https://youtu.be/5PIyPpB83V...

Eonjay17h ago

Actually Horizon Forbidden West exceeds this in image quality. So it seems very plausible. Intergalactic is actually beyond this presntation in IQ, RT and resolution and thats locked 60FPS as well. As far as the usage of hardware RT in UE, they were able to reduce the CPU overhead.

This was a tech demo for UE 5.6. That was clearly stated and is evident by the presentation itself where several of the new features of UE are highlighted

This article title is inaccurate because this was not a demo for Witcher 4. It was a technical demonstration of Unreal Engine 5.6.

Christopher1d 16h ago (Edited 1d 16h ago )

***Cyberpunk 2077’s gameplay features that were showcased in initial footage but never made it into the final game***

They literally made a big deal of telling everyone that they changed the gameplay of CP2077 during development and then did a new demo of the game with the new gameplay. There was no hiding this to the public. CP2077's problem with the buggy as heck and obviously too early release.

This is really bad journalism to promote this line of thinking. It's an attempt to rewrite history. You can definitely say you preferred the initial demo, but they were very open and clear when they moved from third-person to first-person that it would include major changes in gameplay and showed those off multiple times a year prior to the game's release.

---

As to the point of this article? Yeah, the whole event is a marketing event. I don't trust anything until it's released, tbh. No matter who is making it. I can still be excited by what I see, but it's not going to get me to pre-order a game or get me to go out there and sell what I saw as if it will be just like that in the full release.

neutralgamer19921d 10h ago

What about the fact CDPR showed gameplay behind closed doors which wasn't real? They dusnt allow anyone to bring their phones or any tech so once media came out of that gameplay reveal CP2077 was hyped to the moon and back. CDPR didn't show console gameplay so let's not act like they were transparent when they switched from 3rd to 1st person when they lied at launch of the game

Christopher1d 10h ago

You mean rumors? You want me to comment on rumors from Bloomberg? We arguing the belief of rumors now and not news?

Here's that fake demo - https://www.youtube.com/wat...

If you've played the game, you know how much that lines up with the final product. That's what I know.

***let's not act like they were transparent when they switched from 3rd to 1st person when they lied at launch of the game***

They literally re-demoed the game with the change, so they were transparent. You're just acting like they weren't when in 2018 they literally demoed the new gameplay. That's 2 years prior to release.

I don't know what they 'lied at launch of the game' is supposed to mean.

-

This game had enough wrong with it at release that we don't need to be arguing rumors and online hatred of the gameplay changes shown in 2018.

neutralgamer19921d 10h ago

Christopher, just to clarify — I'm not trying to be overly negative or dismissive. I fully acknowledge that CD Projekt Red was transparent when they switched from third-person to first-person and even re-demoed the game to reflect that. Credit where it’s due — they did show that change publicly.

But the real issue for me is how the game launched. Despite that transparency earlier on, they deliberately withheld gameplay from the console versions and still charged full price for something that was nowhere near ready. That’s where trust was broken. The game was released in a clearly unfinished and broken state, and it took years to get it into a playable condition. That goes beyond mistakes — that’s a serious failure in leadership and consumer respect.

So when I see something like the Witcher 4 tech demo — and yes, I understand it’s Epic showcasing Unreal Engine 5 — I can’t help but approach it with caution. It’s not blind skepticism, but earned skepticism. A lot of the original developers have left CDPR, so we can’t assume this next game will automatically reach Witcher 3 levels of excellence.

I want it to be amazing. We all do. But I’m not going to fully believe the hype until independent gamers and trusted content creators — people with a reputation for honesty and not being paid off — get their hands on it and say, “Yes, this is great.” Until then, it’s just marketing.

They built up enormous goodwill after The Witcher 3 and the free DLCs — but they lost much of that with Cyberpunk's release. Even platform holders like PlayStation and Xbox, who once trusted CDPR to self-certify, don’t anymore. That alone speaks volumes.

Again, it’s not hate — it’s caution born from experience

CrimsonIdol1d 9h ago

"Despite that transparency earlier on, they deliberately withheld gameplay from the console versions"
It was a multiplatform release, and yes they botched it, but clearly consoles weren't lead development platform, PC was. They clearly were hoping that they could get everything together by launch, and this was a mistake. I think them showing this running on a PS5 is a clear indicator that they've learnt from this.

But there are plenty of reasons not to get too excited about this, and it's not hidden behind any lies, it's right there watermarked on the footage. this is a technical presentation of the Unreal 5 engine, running on the PS5 at 60fps. This is technology that may be in the Witcher, this is not the Witcher.

Lightning771d 15h ago

Because it is marketing. Epic did the flying sand girl in 2020 now this with Witcher. I still wanna see what games shows the original showing of Unreal 5? It's been 5 years exactly.

Michiel19891d 11h ago

ofc it is, no real gameplay suddenly xrays a horse to show how its muscles are moving realistically.

CrimsonIdol1d 8h ago

It literally had text telling you it wasn't gameplay.

Extermin8or3_15h ago

They were literally showing off the fact it seamlessly can transition from gameplay to ctsceme those aspects of presentation were clear cutscenes....

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