Tim Sweeney Still Isn't Convinced About Microsoft's Openness, Thinks They Might Change the Rules

Even after Microsoft's statements at Build, Sweeney is not convinced about their commitment and fears they might forcefully change the rules.

[Imp0ssibl3]

He's damn right to be skeptical, Microsoft has been shady as duck more than a few times

[donthate]

MS has done all the right moves after getting a new CEO and leadership though. They have been the most straightforward of any recent company.

Purchasing Xamarin, making it open source and free! Wow! BC free of charge? Wow! Cross-buy between XB1 and PC? Wow.

I mean the list goes on, and MS has something new and good they are doing every quarter. As a company they are hugely productive.

I can understand Tim's reluctance, because "business people" see profits first, but I really think Satya Nadella and Co thinks differently. They believe staying relevant and being useful is more profitable in the long run than extracting profit immediately.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Yea and the are working with Canonical to add BASH to Windows 10.

[Rude-ro]

That is because everything they are doing or has done is to try and save a brand that they tarnished the image of. Not because they want be open. The good news is that they are but, what happens if they recapture the market they once thrived in? Microsoft has a history that makes people leery and people are not going to change over night because it could just be a consumer trap to lure people back and as we all know, a flick of switch things can be reinstated.
Now, they will most likely not but, key word is "likely" said with hesitation.
Good news is though, like you listed, consumers are getting more for their money do to microsofts flub with the Xbox one. Keep them in the race at least to another gen.

[donthate]

rude-ro:

That is because you are romanticizing a company instead of treating them as a capitalistic organization that is doing what they need to profit.

We should then as consumer both praise and reward companies that do society good and those that don't. That ensure the health of the company and the industry.

Companies can't trap customers unless customers allow it. We allowed Sony to do it with PS2, and we punished them with PS3, and we are now allowing it again with PS4. We allowed MS to do it with Xbox 360, and now we are punishing them.

See how the balance overall is kept? Ying and yang and all that! :D

[Rude-ro]

@donthate
Your reply make absolutely no sense at all.
No clue how to even respond.
Ps2? What are talking about?
PS3? Lifetime numbers did not do what the ps2 did but it was still number two behind the wii and outsold the Xbox one every month world wide.
Microsoft gained ground with the 360 into a market that did not really except their first console and now they are showing no growth. They ARE in fact trying to sell it with everything they can. Not because it is not selling like the ps4 but because they are showing no growth at all in that department.

Romanticizing? What the what?!?

Your "ying and yang" is not at play here. Consumers hate Microsoft in large numbers for the history of their business.
Microsoft is applying the "ying-yang" to try and attract consumers back to their products. Period. Their sole financial gain is based on marketing and advertising and they want to own as many billboards as possible. Your tvs and computer screens and smart phones.

[donthate]

rude-ro:

Romanticing: You are in belief that companies should "want" to be open, but fail to realize that anything a company projects to you is to sell you a product/service driven by capitalistic forces. That is why you as a consumer has the responsibility to reward and punish them with your wallet.

Regarding your hatred for MS, it seems to me that public sentiment is drastically changing to the positive and some people are upset and frustrated about it. The public knows this, and they show it with stock prices to reflect it.

MS: Near all time high and upwards trajectory!

Sony: Sideways movement near all time low and less than 8th of its high almost two decades ago (inflation adjusted).

Nintendo: Downwards trajectory, but is doing better than Sony based on one business.

In regards to the Xbox One, it is outselling the Xbox 360 in the same period of time so it is "factually" growing! Beyond that, I will let the numbers speak for itself. You can inject whatever makes you feel better.

In fact, the overall financial health overall speak for itself of where each respective company is heading.

[Rude-ro]

@donthate
Correct but, what is Microsoft selling? Their end goal IS consumers where other companies want to actually sell you their products. The stuff they make. Microsoft is consuming up products to brand and then sell to to the consumers to get the consumers. Their information. Their spending habits etc so that they can control the marketing business. This is what makes consumers hate them. Since you keep mentioning Sony, Sony tries to sell their inventions and creations and uses marketing to inform and entice consumers to buy them. Microsoft buys things that best help with what it is they are trying to do and sells them to consumers to best their foothold on their main objective.

Provide one link proving without a doubt the sales trend between the Xbox one and the 360. You can not. The closest estimate is 20 million shipped of which only puts ahead of the 360s sales trend of sold through by 3 million. Now, a number from 2008-09. Markets do no freeze until a product sells more. The consumer base has grown and is larger than 2008 so the 3 million "shipped" is not growth. It is growth. It is backwards. It is in the red not in the black.

What you have to ask yourself as a consumer is, where does ALL of microsofts money cons from? Investigate that rabbit hole and you will see why consumers do not like Microsoft.
They are trying to paint a new picture but with the same products.

[Kribwalker]

@rude

Every big Corp monitors spending habits, they pay companies like the NPD to find spending habits. Sony like ms make a press release on a monthly basis off of the NPD.

Question for you. What is holo lense? Who invented hololens?

And regarding PS3 being second. There is no official data released to corroborate your claim. The last official numbers released in regards to last gen was ms claiming 80 million a month before Sony claimed 80 million, then MS claimed 84 million 6 months later and Sony announced 100 million combined ps4 PS3 and vita when ps4 hit 10 mil 2 weeks later and vita was between 7-8 million putting the PS3 at 82-83. Neither side released last gen numbers since then

[rainslacker]

@donthate

"it seems to me that public sentiment is drastically changing to the positive"

Can you show me proof of this outside of gaming forums? I haven't really seen it myself anywhere but on gaming forums....where MS seems to have about the same feelings for them as they always have....either distrust/hate, or unbridled unflinching love....with some indifference mixed in.

I'm really curious where you get your data, because I am routinely saying MS is not trusted or people hate them....yet no one really ever refutes me with anything more than some hyperbole like the quote above....and more often than not all I get is people hitting the disagree button.

[donthate]

Rain:

No source needed. Just look at their stock value, look at the public reception of Windows 10, open sourcing of their software and so on. Like any company, MS will have people that dislike them just like Apple, and Google.

You though, have an intense hatred for MS so that is what you will see.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Qualify your statements. What have they been shady about?

[TheCommentator]

More importantly, how much shade does a duck produce?

[gangsta_red]

I doubt any reasonable answer will be given. It has become the absolute norm to say MS is some sort of evil shadowy company ran by a type of emperor Palpatine like figurehead out to destroy the world.

[Rookie_Monster]

Unfortunately,Imp0ssibl3 is out of town but he did relay this message to me to reply to you of why MS is shady.

1. sneaking Backward compatibility into XB1 to allow gamers to play the games they already own without telling anyone until E3 last year.

2. Sneaking their fast Azure dedicated servers into their MP online games without telling their gamers about it. People are satisfied with P2P and no need to use our Live subscription money to improve gaming for us.

3. A shady tactic of giving out prequels X360 BC titles with AAA titles like Gears of War Ultimate and Fallout 4. No one wants extra games with the game we buy today.

4. A shady tactic of selling an $150 customizable and programmable controller to XBOX and Windows 10 players. Everyone hates options these days.

5. A shady tactic of allowing crossbuy with their titles between XB1 and Windows 10 and Quantum Break and Killer Instinct are two recent examples of that. Nobody asked for crossbuy when we can pay for each separately!! You evil MS, You.

6. Shady of opening up their Live service to Live subscribers to allow crossplatform play with other networks. Gamers have asked about it before and really wanted it so it is shady for MS to listen to what people want and actually implemented it.

7. MS is shady of selling their xbox games that PC people been asking for for ages on their Windows 10 store. How dare them to open up their games to more people and sell it in their own store on their own OS!

All the examples above show why MS is shady. /S

[Venoxn4g]

People seem to forget that it was microsoft who wanted to implement a "feature" that you cant use used games on xb1 .. or a mandatory kinect 2.0 which they removed with future update

[RiseofScorpio]

Sony fans love making these claims about MS but when questioned as to why they scurry along without a response.

[gangsta_red]

@Venox2008

People seem to forget that MS actually revealed that was going to happen with their Xbox One and then dropped it when feedback was given. How is that "shady"? It's not like they had a bullet point on some chart of mandatory online way after their initial reveal.

"or a mandatory kinect 2.0 which they removed with future update"

How is that shady? It was shady because they included a peripheral to the console?

People sure have a hard time separating shady from what they don't personally like.

[rainslacker]

Ohhhh...goody. If I answer, will you accept it? Will you use easily found info on search engines to see what it's about.

I won't get into all the details, but feel free to actually research before using the all nullifying "nuh uh, that's just ignorant" line to refute me....not that I really care to get into an actual discussion on each point.

1. MS started making Windows a more closed system starting with XP. Turned off developers by doing so.

2. Holding DX hostage to new versions of windows despite there being absolutely no reason to, just to increase new windows release sales.

3. Licensing costs, and frequent updates to Office.

4. DRM and always online stuff with X1.

5. RROD. They denied it at first.

6. That whole anti-trust lawsuit...or two.

7. Certain business practices that twisted the arm of OEM vendors to make Windows more commonplace.

8. Crappy first iterations of new Windows Kernels, which often required the purchase of new OS's to remedy the issues.

9. Trying to enforce their own WWW standards back in the day, despite everyone wanting something more akin to HTTP.

10. Their constant attitude that what they do is the best thing for everyone, despite everyone pretty much saying they don't want such things(numerous examples...look it up).

11. Data collection policies(not exclusive to them, but still shady).

12. Forcing the install of Win10 on people's computers despite them not agreeing to it.

13. GFWL

14. Stopped releasing games on Windows to drive console sales.

15. Possibly sabatoging Nokia's share prices to buy it cheaper

16. They've taken concepts from other OS makers, and used them in their own OS without compensation, often claiming they came up with it and touted how innovative it was.

That's what I can come up with off the top of my head. Again, I'm not looking to discuss the veracity of each individual thing, or how it may have been misinterpreted. You asked for a list, I provided it.

These are reasons people are skeptical of MS.

Now I'd be interested in seeing people's list on why people now suddenly trust MS, since the only place they seem to be doing any kind of positive things is in their gaming department, which is a extremely small part of their overall business.

MS has made a lot of mistakes, and have done a lot of things which aren't that great in their history. It's just a thing people have to accept. It's not the end of them because of those things, but never should they be dismissed as if MS is faultless.

And to be fair, MS has also done a lot of good things, and these past few years, they have actively been trying to improve their image, and try to be more consumer oriented. Regardless of the ultimate purpose for them, doing so means that the consumer is likely to benefit.

[gangsta_red]

@Rainslacker

"Now I'd be interested in seeing people's list on why people now suddenly trust MS"

Because a lot of your reasons sound like either conspiracy theories or regular business tactics done by a lot of other companies when trying to corner a certain market.

But my number one and only reason to trust MS (or not trust but actually not even care)is because they haven't done anything to me personally or physically to make me go out my way and drop "they're shady" comment whenever they release something new or open their mouths about anything.

I tell you what they have done though. Provided some fantastic games on a great console(s) that has added to my personal enjoyment of my overall gaming experiences.

[rainslacker]

@Gangsta

That's fair enough. You use your personal experience with them to form your own opinion.

That however, does not remove the shady things they've done...which is what 343 was asking for.

You can still trust them despite the fact they have shady stuff in their past....same way you can trust other companies too, as shady actions aren't necessarily about personally harming the consumer. But in that vein, just because other companies do shady stuff, it doesn't mean that MS stuff isn't shady as well.

The shady stuff doesn't take away from the good stuff they've done, nor should it, but the good stuff shouldn't be used to ignore the bad stuff either....as all companies should be called to task for shady dealings.

And no, nothing I mentioned was conspiracy theory other than the Nokia thing where I did say possibly. Every one of them is verifiable if you care to go look. Keep in mind, that was my short list off the top of my head.

That being said, I still don't see this huge increase in trust for MS. I see the people that were trusting of them in the past still trusting them, while everyone else seems to still distrust them...generally speaking of course. There is an obvious shift in consensus when general perception changes, and I have yet to see that shift in consensus anywhere, even on N4G which seems more hostile towards MS than it was last gen. N4G isn't reflective of the rest of the world, and gaming forums are about the only place where MS will continuously get praise...everywhere else it's hate, distrust, or indifference.

This is really why it's hard to discuss this stuff on here, because no one wants to accept that MS has done some shady stuff in their history, nor do some people want to accept that MS isn't a well loved company. It's quite frustrating at times. And yes, that is true of other companies as well.

[ccgr]

Time will tell...

[CoNn3r_B]

Seeing as M$ took a full 180 turn on pretty much every thing to do with the Xbox One it is pretty much a given that nothing they say is to be taken as 100% true.

[coolbeans]

You can't pretend the two situations are the same:

-Xbox One in early-mid 2013: Made several 180's in policy due to such overwhelmingly negative feedback that forecasted how hard their bottom line would be affected.

-MS' UWP/Build Conference in early 2016: Current policy implementations that foreshadow a much more positive reception by community (EDIT: in comparison to XJuan's reveal in May).

I'm not suggesting it's unhealthy to be skeptical of a big company, but the comparison you're using is terrible.

[donthate]

Well MS could have just doubled down on their mistake and bury their head in the sand like a certain company did the entire generation making MS a serious console contender.

MS went from laughing stock in the industry to a serious contender in a market where Sony had 80% of the market and became in many ways more relevant than Nintendo and on par with Sony speaks volumes.

I think certain people are upset at the fast & furious pace that MS is developing, taking feedback and releasing features. At this rate of innovation and evolution, there aren't many that will be able to keep up with them.

[AizenSosuke]

Microsoft does have a bad enigma even if they like it or not:(

[BlackTar187]

They have a well deserved bad enigma. People who haven't grown up with the MS way and only see MS from being a xbox company really don't know. I will say they have changed their ways a couple times over the past 20yrs but they still pull stuff.

[n4rc]

Name one company the size of MS that hasnt.

People love to hate them for no reason other then their success.. We could all run Linux if we hated windows so much but we don't..

Ms isn't stealing those billions out of our pockets, we give it to them in exchange for their products..

The antitrust crap was what? 10-15 years ago?

Being skeptical and hoping they fail aren't the same thing..

[MCTJim]

He moved his goal posts.

[JasonKCK]

Exactly

[Frisky]

I can't blame him

[Phoenix76]

I'd be skeptical too, what with a company whom appear to change direction as often as the wind.

[Free_Fro]

that's his own personal issue he has to deal with not Microsoft.

get your few minutes of fame then back to the shadows working on projects...

-
xo

[TheCommentator]

I'm sure, Mr. Sweeny, that MS put the whole conference together just to pull the wool over your eyes. They're going to invest millions into making the platform open like you'd asked them to, just to get the last laugh when they close it off like a venus fly trap once you've entered. I guess MS should've taken the stage and held up a legally binding contract showing their commitment to building an open platform to satisfy you?

If the UWP is going to be successful across multiple devices it has to be open, and full of features relevant to developers and consumers alike. If it's not, nobody will care about it and will just use something else instead. It is therefore in MS' best interest, not yours MR. Sweeny, to make the UWP an open platform in order for their product to succeed.

[nitus10]

>> If the UWP is going to be successful across multiple devices it has to be open, and full of features relevant to developers and consumers alike.

While I do agree with the spirit what you said the main common set of API's for game development on Microsoft Windows is going to be DirectX12 which is only available for MS Windows 10. I smell lock-in here, since when was DirectX12 an open API?

[Tsunade]

He has a point and I can understand why he doesn't trust MS.

[joeorc]

http://m.ign.com/articles/2...

The big point is now Microsoft is using Linux Ubuntu to put it on a command line inside Windows 10 top it off they are also including an Android player app inside Windows 10 so if you ask yourself the reason why they're doing this and then to say where Windows 10 is the best place for developers it's very simple embrace: windows and embracing other operating systems extend: to extend inside those operating systems and say I see; do you really need those other other operating systems when you can just program on Windows 10?

notice it's not Windows on Linux or Windows on Android it's Android on Windows or Linux on Windows.

when you can program just on Windows 10 an say yes you can port to linux if you want too' but your apps will be best played on windows; and extinguish the whole reason for these other operating systems to exist: Tim for good reason is very Leery of Microsoft.

[baodeus]

other OS are irrelevant regardless if MS put Linux or android on window or not. See latest March 2016 OS market share link:

https://www.netmarketshare....

Linux: 1.78%
Mac OS: 6.11%
Window: 92.11%
Android: ??? is not even on PC

If you own Linux, would you prefer to have only Linux PC at 1.78% or would you like to have some sort of appearance on every PC running window? Take you pick.

And Android is popular for mobile devices but has nothing to do with PC. Your analysis on Android on PC is even more irrelevant than other OS on PC.

You guys don't look at the actual source but quoting media blog as some sort supporting evidence for your agenda (bias/not)? c'mon, you guys can do better.

[joeorc]

@Baodeus + 29m ago | hide
"other OS are irrelevant"

regardless if MS put Linux or android on window or not. See latest March 2016 OS market share link.

[You guys don't look at the actual source but quoting media blog as some sort supporting evidence for your agenda (bias/not)? c'mon, you guys can do better.]

Our bias?

Of all the freaking arrogant. ..
If the otherwise "redundant OS" was such of little importance why put it into the Windows 10 OS.

because it Is very simple ,it's not about making Windows 10 an open platform it's about keeping developer in the Windows operating system ecosystem why are you acting like it's not that's just the truth of it.

[nitus10]

For your information Android does actually run on tablets (I have one) which can play pretty much all the smart phone applications, but they are a tiny percentage of the PC market. Android has over 80% of the smart phone market.

Actually no one really owns Linux although Linus Torvalds is the creator and principle developer.

I am one of the so called 1.78% (10's of millions) and I am not lacking in anything. Basically what people can do under Microsoft Windows I can usually find software that can do something similar, usually allot cheaper and many cases free.

Lets take gaming. I can play play many web based games, I can run emulators for retro games, I can run SteamOS on a virtual machine, I can even run some MS Windows games under compatibility software.

My main gaming needs are taken care of by my backwards compatible PS3 and my PS4 so in many ways I don't need or even miss Microsoft Windows.

[baodeus]

Did you intentionally ignore the part where MS said u don't have to put it on window if you don't want to? What more do u want? Linux can still ran by itself if they chose to, they don't have to put it on window, but no way they going to be more mainstream going solo (how long has it been and has Steam propel it to unprecedented recognition to the masses on PC?). Linux is very good OS (allow great customization or have full control over what u want to run on your PC) but requires that you know what you are doing, not exactly general consumer friendly).

How many PC gamer ran Linux only or they ran both? If it is the later, then it should even more easy to implement both this way no?

Bottom line is window already dominating the PC? Unless u worry that they'll be more dominating than they already are on PC? Sound pretty redundant to me

[donthate]

I just wish the same scrutiny is given to all companies. It is easy to cherry pick companies you don't like....

Regardless of how you look at it, this is positive for users. If you want to stick with Linux or move back to Linux you can. It's not like the Linux Desktop market can get much smaller.... At this point, Linux is less relevant than Mac OSX. The company that almost went bankrupt.

[nitus10]

Well actually for years you could always run Linux under a virtual machine on MS Windows or you could run Microsoft Widows under a virtual machine under a Linux distribution. As for Android development you can also do that under a virtual machine.

Having shell language (which is what they are talking about) running on Windows 10 is nothing new either although I do think you would be hard pressed to find a Windows shell running under Linux or Unix.

There is nothing wrong with interoperability between operating systems however Microsoft always likes to push their proprietary products which ensures vendor lock-in. The three E's (embrace, Extend, Extinguish) are very much alive and well it's just that Microsoft does not like people mentioning them too much.

[MasterCornholio]

Its OK to be skeptical but company's can change.

[AizenSosuke]

Yeah they can but Microsoft is a company with known crocodile tears before and then bang they f*** gamers in the b*******e.

[joeorc]

While its indeed viable for to see companies can an indeed change...thats one thing but when they have shown no indication to change and keep the status quo then really they haven't changed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

I mean think about it..they hold the build conference and then turn right around and Market in the same conference about how developer on Windows 10 can port to any operating system environment but yet turn right around and claim that it's the best place for developers and be there developer IP or Publishers IP will run better on the Windows environment.

Notice it's still is not Windows on Linux or Windows on Android it's always other OS is on Windows RT it's to keep developer on their ecosystem it's not really open platform if you're not willing to put your OS on another OS.

So consoles are closed for a reason but one only has to look at the standpoint of each company and you can see where they are , an where they are headed game consoles are closed ecosystems they have always been and always will be a closed ecosystem.

Microsoft claiming to be an open platform but really they're not because exactly the point and Brace extend and eventually extinguished the need for another OS it's always been in their DNA and it always will be which is fine that's what their companies built on .

I mean you should expect it those not expecting it it's kind of like going in there and being blind not to expect them to do this.

It would be foolish not to do it it's a company that's their strongest IP so why do you think they would not do it.why would anybody expect them not to do that is to their company they're not opening up their platform.

They are trying to make other platform OS as being is redundant that is their goal that's why it's Android on Windows or Linux on Windows and it's a freaking command line.

[donthate]

Why would MS put Windows on "Android"?

It's not their platform, they don't control Android nor do they control Linux. Instead, MS is open sourcing their software so YOU, yes YOU can port it to Linux or Android if you want.

You are complaining about MS competing. It's like asking why Sony isn't putting their first party games on Xbox One. That is just completely idiotic.

[rainslacker]

Change is not always tangible. Nor is the appearance of change an actual change.

I'm not going to speculate on if MS is now "good" or whatever superlative one wishes to attribute to a well thought of company, but their intent to gain market share and make Windows, and it's core products, essential to everyone's life is still very much in tact.

They have changed their approach to this goal many times since Bill Gates first said he wanted Windows on anything that was a computer, and some of those approaches have been good, others have been rather bad.

I'd prefer the current MS over what they were 6-7 years ago(generally speaking, not just games). While I'm not completely trusting of their words, at least it seems they are trying to provide something that people will accept. However, I do feel there is a bit of the "we know what people want better than they do" mentality that still exists within the company....although I think a lot of this has left their gaming division since Spencer took over.

Overall, I think on these forums, people aren't really separating the gaming space from the company as a whole, and that makes any criticism of their corporate policies difficult, because people see it as an attack on the Xbox itself....when in reality, people are just attacking MS because of their own feelings towards MS history....probably with a bunch of commonly believed social jokes tempering those thoughts, but perception is key, regardless of merit.

[Kreisen]

The thing is with Xbone there was Sony who screwed over their plans. But on PC, who is there to make them change their mind?

[joeorc]

http://mobile.itbusinessedg...

Windows 10

Now has Linux "on" Windows 10
Android "on" windows 10

Read the past history of Microsoft's
Embrace to Extend to Extinguished. .

And people are wondering why Tim is leery of Microsoft?

It would be prudent to..that's
not hatred or Bias against Microsoft for just hating.
Its just the blunt truth.

[nitus10]

For years it as always been possible to run Linux distributions and even Android under MS Windows. The reverse is also true on Linux.

Since I run Fedora 23 (latest stable version as per 3rd Nov 2015) the following URL explains how to install the Android Development App: https://fedoraproject.org/w...

Likewise there are plenty of guides on how to run MS Windows under a distribution of Linux using a virtual machine.

Basically the Microsoft PR department is working overtime by stating old news.

[ScorpiusX]

Here's a concept Tim Piss off , enough with your BS .

[kstuffs]

N4G in summary:

MS no change = always the greedy MS.
MS changes to be open = can't trust them MS.