WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Friday agreed to consider Microsoft Corp's bid to fend off class action claims by Xbox 360 owners who contend that the videogame console has a design defect that causes game discs to be gouged.
Xbox 360 really had various hardware issues after it launched
It did but this particular issue arises from people moving there consoles while the disc was rotating in the console. That's user error not a design defect. I had a launch console and my copy of Gears got scratched but that was because of my brother kicking it while walking across the TV.
It hasn't only happened from bumping the console. And, despite how much people want to glorify it. This IS an issue whether you bump the console or not. I've heard a lot of people have their discs scratched without touching the console. Many people had a reason not to have their console vertically. Working at a retail store with used games. We saw tons of rings etched from their 360's when they tried to trade-in. And, when they have to plug in a USB peripheral or drive. Guess what? Most of the time the console is on when that time comes. Disc scratched for plugging something in from a tiny amount of movement or vibration. Joy. Kicking is one thing. You can bump the console or take a heavy step near your entertainment center and it happens. It's because their disc drives don't have lens protectors so they save pennies on cost. Ever hear of any other console or drive with such a problem? No. Not unless you specifically look for it. Almost any other product has a protector where if the disc happens to brush against the lens, nothing happens.
You know how easily it was to scratch a disk by accidentally bumping onto a 360? Go ahead pick up any other console and do the same thing let me know if it scratches the disc to the level of a 360. Hell the ps3, ps2, xbox, gamecumbe, CHEAP dvd players never did that. You're right an expensive console is okay to scratch a freaking 60 dollar disc because you have a child that accidentally pull the cord and it made the box bump. There goes your game.
@Transporter47 Exactly. People are just trying to justify it. You can tap on the console and it would scratch it. That is inexcusable. Nothing else does that. The PSP is portable, in your pocket, and uses discs. That thing NEVER had an issue and it didn't have a special disc reader or anything.
Yeah I had a launch 360 and I remember they said you could have it vertically, and then when I scratched my disc having it vertically I called MS support and they couldnt replace my game and told me not to have it standing anymore... But they advertised it as being able to stand vertically. I never bumped my console or anything. The discs just get scratched because its not supposed to stand vertically.
What do people do to move their console all the time? I never move my console. I put in the entertainment system and that is it. Never had a disc problem ever. Didn't even think about it. Surprised there is even 0.4% people affected. Then again I see people put Kinects on top of the vent on Xbox One, or block their entire console in an entertainment system and complain. Or I remember the guy with the support incident where Sony refused to fix a PS3, only to reveal later that it was covered in a red dust as if it has been sitting outside in the desert: http://consumerist.com/2007... ... or the stories of cockroaches and other bugs inside people's consoles! eeeeewwww!!! People do weird crap, that I have a hard time sympathizing sometimes. Even when I want to believe big old evil corporation!
This disc scratching issue isbwell documented like the RRoD was but theya re just gonna pay to make it go away again...like RRoD!
You should be able to do that. I've moved my ps3's many times with games inside, same for dvd players, blueray players, ps2, nothing has ever happened. It's design defect
I don't care what anyone says. No Manufacturer of a games console, PC, Blu Ray Player whatever... is gonna condone moving a device while it is running a disc. I've never put a movie or a game on and decided I need to move this Xbox/PS4 (or Blu Ray Player) right now instead of turning it off and moving it safely. Sure there can be accidents but that is not the responsibility of the Manufacturer. Portable devices don't count there designed to be moved around, console are not designed to be moved around while running a game off a disc. I'm not arguing whether MS should have put in something to prevent these issues but they were trying to keep costs down and were giving people the benefit of the doubt to not move there consoles while running a disc at the same time. Which in fairness is stupid. The Xbox 360 at launch had a high failure rate and they should be punished for that but this ? I don't think so.
What you sow is what you reap.
It happened to me without moving my console actually.
Sorry that is not a user error it is a design flaw. As most of the others have commented just about all devices that use a DVD or even CD for that matter don't scratch the media that is placed in them. There is a YouTube video on when the XBox360 slim was first introduced with the commentator moving the console which resulted in grinding noise and a nice ring around the DVD, hence one damaged game. A quick search will actually show lots of problems with disk scratching and you can see these on YouTube as well.
Transporter, the PS2 scratched discs all the time, so did the PS1. The difference is that the disc drives in older systems didn't spin as fast and didn't make as pronounced a scratch when people acted like fools and moved their consoles while they were playing.
@HaydenJameSmith No. Its MS's fault period. When so many consoles before the 360 never had similar issues even if the manufacturer isn't to blame for peoples accidental bumping or even moving their consoles while running they should have that case covered anyway only to avoid this exact mess they are currently in. Considering we are talking about Mega CORPS here, forget making a good product for the customer, make a good product to protect your name. You never take the consumer's actions for granted, never! (ask Sony and their $600 ps3 launch price) What MS did wad stupid and they deserve what's coming to them, they should have known better especially after a working first try (OG XBOX).
@sinspirit You every heard of proof? Just because you say it, and little fanBOY's agree, don't make it true. Less than 1% of disc were scratched while the console was not moving. It wasn't a problem. On top of that, I've had 3 over 8 years, not one scratched disc. Please use proof and NOT fanBOY fantasy. http://kotaku.com/5112257/m...
No other optical disc based system has this issue and I've never owned an optical drive for my computer that has had this issue. Please don't stand up for corporate greed just, because they wanted to save $.25 per 360 sold by not putting rubber protectors on an area around the lens.
This is damagecontrol plain and simpel. Microsoft knew that t was a fault in the design. (Just like the Red Ring Of Dead) A piece of rubber for f####ing $0,20 and it would never had to happen. Microsoft and his fanboys are damagecontrolling. It will cost Microsoft a lot of money, when they lose this case.
Actually I had a game destroyed in my Moms Encounter motorhome while driving down the F****** road! My ps3 never ate any discs while in the same situations in the same motorhome. So as far as I'm concerned its a defect!
my elite 360 (allegedly after the improvements were made) sounded like a chainsaw day 1. just all around bad hardware.
I've owned the original XBox 360 and an XBox Slim and have 1000's of hours of gaming on both systems and not a single scratched disc on any of my games that would cause them to not work. Only incident where I saw a disc get scratched is when my son's friend brought hit XBox 360 to my house and said his Halo 3 disc was stuck in the 360. Turns out he had his system standing vertically while playing the game and accidentally bumped the system and it fell on the floor. This cause the disc to get jammed in the system . They ended up opening the system and finally got the disc out. It was scratched to hell. Miraculously the system still worked though. Never every put your game console vertical. Never!!
* my 360 was fine....never scratched the discs but I also know how to take care of things properly and not try and remove them while they are spinning. * Did have a RROD initially, but after that fix the 360 was awesome.
Name another disc based system that scratched discs when moved slightly. Don't worry I'll wait...
@voodoochild346 Every non-mobile disc based system has a warning, that it shouldn't be moved when it is active. What do you think why this warning is there? no DVD/Blu-ray player (even the PS3) will rotate the disc at those Speeds the xbox 360 does. Try it with your DVD drive in your PC. copy a disc and move your PC. Maybe not every drive does this, but there are many outside that scratch their disc at top speed. and the 360 drive has one of the fastest drives out there (at release time). There is just a simple rule, don't move electric devices, when they are active, until they are made for it. By the way, even my PSP scratched a game until it did no longer work. My xbox 360 did never did that, and I played a lot of games.
Disc scratching on the 360 is a common issue that plagued many Playstation fans.
There were actually more issues with DRE on the PS1 and PS2, then there was with scratched 360 disks. When Sony was approached about it, they blamed the gamers. lol!! It got so bad that gamers finally took Sony to court and won. http://www.gamasutra.com/vi... The RROD in the 360 was more of an issue then the disks scratching. Microsoft did have in their instructions not to move the XBox 360 while a game was playing in it. Many gamers didn't listen. Many gamers didn't even read the instruction manual. lol!! I still play my 360 to this day and no scratched disks.
@XanderZane Exactly. This is a huge reason why I also hate disc trays. They made it easier to get micro scratches. But, luckily Bluray has a scratch resistant coating which really does help. Micro scratches would be a nightmare for these discs because of how fine the data is burned onto them.
@ Hayden I don't think this issue should occur at all on Xbox 360. There are a lot of other entertainment devices that if you move the device the discs don't scratch easily, so Microsoft shouldn't be let off the hook for such shoddy rushed hardware.
I've never bought a console or Blu Ray or whatever and decided to move it without turning it off first, it's stupid. That's my point. Sure there can be accidents and whatever but that's not the manufacturers responsibility and MS were trying to keeps costs down for the Xbox 360. The 360 had RROD problems, high failure rates and that's what they should be punished for (by rushing the hardware) but not this.
Irregardless this issue shouldn't occur at all. Wii was made cheaper than Xbox 360, and it had nowhere near the amount of hardware issues. That fact you could move those other devices when they were on and not damage the disc inside shows how shoddily put together the 360 was. All those flaws 360 had were a result of Microsoft rushing the console to get a headstart on PS3, and it shouldn't be excused.
@Hayden While I agree with you on principal, this could happen without moving the console, or without moving it much. Plugging in a USB cable could cause it to happen. One of my gamer buddies asked me to look at his console after his 3rd disc got scratched since I used to repair consoles and was just ouf of that trade at the time this was going on. This was when it was just becoming a known issue. I went through all the possibilities and we couldn't figure out why they got gouged. We let it be and told him to take note of everything if it happened again. Then when I was at his house playing a game, it happened, and I figured out that it was because he keeps his subwoofer next to his entertainment center, with the electronics cabinet on the end of the subwoofer. The vibration from deep explosion sounds while playing at loud volumes was enough to gouge the discs. That to me is a design flaw, because over time, electronics tend to get more vibration naturally as parts wear down. The vibration from a subwoofer is heavy at the point of origin, but there is absolutely no reason why an entertainment device shouldn't be able to compensate for what would be transferred to the device itself as it's not an uncommon set up for the sub woofer to be in that location. The user should not have to jump through hoops and build spring mounted vibration dampeners for their electronics devices just to keep them from doing something that a simple common piece of plastic has done for over 20 years for every other laser assembly I've ever seen. MS, as a company providing consumer electronics for the common consumer(not a specialized device) has the responsibility to account for these sorts of things, because when it comes to a consumer device, anything and everything will happen to it...even the unforeseen. They were negligible at best, irresponsible at worst.
Had the red rings a few times, Stopped my gaming
I had RROD twice and then a fucking E74 forced me to go back to PS2 which is not exactly bad thing but it quite bad that it broke on me few weeks before GTA IV releases. I was so pissed!
@GoodSmurf - I know exactly what you mean, the last time my 360 messed up was a few years ago, in which I was in the middle of a new playthrough for Mercenaries Playground of Destruction, I had to send my 360 away for so long, I had nothing to do for weeks, terrible experience.
Agreed. I wonder how many key hardware people got fired after that train wreck. Many don't cite RROD when talking about XONE's hardware, but its clear they fixed a whole lot regarding their process in creating consoles. XONE is easily the best console MS has ever made in regards to OS and hardware durability.
It's no accident that the XB1 is so huge, they took cooling very seriously this time around. There was no way they were going to take any chances with heat related issues again. Another RROD fiasco would have been the end of the xbox brand.
The Xbox original was also very solid. The 360 was clearly rushed to get a Headstart on the PS3. It did work because they were toe to toe with a PlayStation console with only their second console and the first not even being that successful. But in the end it bit them in the nuts. If they had waited and ensured it's quality. They would have beaten the PS3 simply because of its price and PS3's bad press. But they created bad press of their own making things pretty much even.
@Zeref "If they had waited and ensured it's quality. They would have beaten the PS3 simply because of its price and PS3's bad press. But they created bad press of their own making things pretty much even." Nope. It was a combination of: 1. The 360's early launch, 2. PS3's issues (price, media, poor optimizations), 3. RRoD 4. 3rd party deals (GTA4, COD, etc...) 5. North America 6. The fact that the 360 all things considered turned out to be a good console That year head start for the Xbox helped them more than anything, when it came to a sales race. By the beginning of 2007 (the PS3's first full year) the 360 already had 8m consoles sold, while the PS3 only have 1.25m sold and still hadn't launched in EU until March of 2007. On top of that the PS3 pretty much had the same treatment the XBO currently has, expect the vast majority of it was unjustified outside of price (which was way too high, and Cell should have been cut from PS3 for a standard CPU a slightly better GPU, and a cheaper launch price of $399 / $499 or at least so Sony could break even at $499 / $599), and most of the developer issues would have instantly been eliminated as well, and last-gen would have been a very different outcome. Contrary to what people say RRoD did help the Xbox sales, but initially hurt it's financials due to the $1 billion replacement program. 2008 was the year RRoD peaked, and 2008 was also the only full year for both console the Xbox 360 outsold the PS3 globally. And when the 360 slim dropped in 2010, and eliminated RRoD, sales rose from their standard 10m up to the 13m mark as people traded in their old 360's with the GameStop program (how I got mine) or simply bought the new model. 3rd party deals like COD / GTA4 / etc... ensured that 360 software and hardware sales stayed high, and gave them bargaining power with many publishers / developers. Ultimately this helped them win North America (the largest gaming market). And overall the 360 was a good console, but they couldn't beat the PS3 for the same reason the PS4 is now dominating the industry. The Xbox brand simply doesn't have anywhere near the same global appeal that PS brand does. They won NA by a large margin against the PS3, but it didn't matter because the PS3 won EU with a strong lead, had JP sales to fall back on, and sold better in the Tier 3 regions.
@AB-good read, agreed. Many things factored into last gen and I feel regardless of 360's release, it would going to get beat by PS3 due to what PS3 was and what 360 wasn't worldwide. Because of some gamers buying 3 or 4 or even 5 360 after those RROD, we don't really know what the final number of real working 360's actually are.
I don't think this one is fair though. It clearly warned you that you should not move the box while it's on. Every technology has their flaws. Next thing they're gonna sue Duracell because their batteries run out. The RROD is fair because it happens during normal use. From my experience. I never had a disc scratched with my 2 units. 360 elite and the 360 (old)slim. The elite RROD'd on me. A few weeks after they announced the slim. However my brother got his disc scratched when his 360 fell of the desk due to him going in rage mode.
I don't know what you people are doing with your console honestly, I had the day one 360 until the slim version and I never had the issues you people are talking about, one of my friends did have a issue, but he was the fault, always taking his console to some body's house, in fact that how I got my console, but his problem was he often forgot the disc in the drive, but for me I have moved my console up and down the house, I've even moved house carrying in my bag not a problem, but for those who have had that, sorry to hear that. Total 360s 2 launch and slim
Of course they'll agree to hear the appeal, so they can do some gouging of their own! It's a well documented defect that plagued the earlier models of the 360. Sure there were people who didn't experience this particular problem, but then again it's not like it was the only problem. Good thing as time went on the 360 experienced fewer and fewer issues with each iteration.
I think everything after the Falcon update was a pretty solid machine. I never heard of any major issues not attributed to standard rate of fail manufacturing defects after that model released. I believe it was the Falcon at least. It's the one they came out with at about the time they acknowledged the RROD problem.
I knew it was one of the later boards. I had forgotten about Jasper, and even forgot there were two revisions.
Never happend to me and i have the first one and a slim.
I never had the disc tray scratch disks but I did have an issue where it would only open if it had a disc in it. So I put in that demo disc they gave you, traded it in at gamestop and got a new one for half off lol.
Didn't the launch models of the original xbox have a similar issue where it scratched the very edges of the discs? It was corrected fairly quickly from what I remember and even so I don't think it made a difference as the parts that got scratched didn't hold any data so games were still playable.
But you have to wonder how many of the claims were made by people who moved the console with the disc in , not taking anything away from the flaw but some did do that and then they said it was due to the console and not their own fault
The Xbox 360 is 10 years old now it's a bit too late to appeal. Everyone moved now. Maybe that's one of the reason why Xbone isn't selling good. People still remember the RROD and disc scratches.
Indeed,not to mention that horrible introduction XD of the X1,that's what i was trying to tell people though when you keep on buying a system that keeps breaking there's no limit to what they might try to sell you,and voila LOL.
Doesn't matter. People will have right to their claim through the class action, and the statute of limitation of appeal is dependent on when the final judgement was placed, not on if it's still relevant. The issue itself was resolved a while ago before it ever went to class action. MS has the right to appeal, but if the case was judged fairly, then theres nothing they can do. An appeal is not a 2nd chance to win, it's simply a way to cite improprieties in the original case, which could lead to MS getting a 2nd chance in a new case should the original class action lawyers wish to pursue it.
I had four 360s. First three got RROD. Only had one scratched disc and that was from my cat jumping onto the console and knocking it down while I was playing.
I'm on Microsoft's side. This is a baseless lawsuit.
Sorry, This has happened to me. You are wrong.
If it was a "baseless" lawsuit, they would have had it easily thrown out in lower courts. The very fact that MS has to appeal (and at the Supreme Court level) means that the case has been found to at least have merit.
Never suffered such issue ,any how good luck MS
I swear the Supreme Court be picking up the most fukkboy cases to hear. We have cross verdicts from different federal appeals in different cases in regards to the 2nd and 4th amendment and they want to hear this BS? This has nothing with deciding whether or not MS has to pay for said problem; this is whether or not the plaintiffs even have the right to turn this case into a class-action lawsuit. I hope MS loses just for slowing crap up in the system. It's BS that companies can con people out of they ability to file a class-action in their Terms & Conditions.
then don't buy their stuff if you feel cheated. you [email protected] think mistakes can't happen when making a product. you go on like Microsoft intentionally wanted to sully their name and destroy discs or something. sure, some where defective. but, you want to take a reasonable guess as to how many dumbasses abused their delicate electronics or move the console around while it had a rotating disc inside? huh? any guesses?
Yep, only people with Xbox have the issue, but its all user error... Guess no one with a PlayStation or Wii ever bumped their machine...
"This has nothing with deciding whether or not MS has to pay for said problem; this is whether or not the plaintiffs even have the right to turn this case into a class-action lawsuit." Your reply suggest you are unaware of this fact. This is about class-action suits, not civil liabilities. So, your debating whether or not if it was consumer or MS fault is unrelated to this case.
Really?lol this has been proven to be false claims from Microsoft. Many people had complaints about their Xbox 360's drive to cause disc scratches,it was on national TV over here.i thought it was a national LAN-party at first glimpse until i saw the hostess and realized it was a complaints for consumers show that's well known over here.The 360 was junk hardware-wise even the first Xbox,try lifting that thing up while it's running a game. No this is not some fanboy talking here,had the OG Xbox and the 360 (used purchase sold it again after 6 months a lot of disc read errors)Their systems have no quality.
Probably because Microsoft paid them to.
Mine ruined my R6Vegas. Never moved the console at all. Although, I remember the original xbox used to put rings in discs.
Xbox 360 was one of the most shoddiest console ever made. Over 50% of all the original models had RROD. Not to mention other issues like disc scratching occurring often whether or not you move the console while it's on. I've never seen a console from such a major corporation have this many technical issues before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/... Microsoft should continue be held legally responsible these issues.
Wow! I never had that happen with mine. I did have the rrod,but have yet to experience this. I do think 360 had some problems, but I still love the thing...
So glad I never had any of these problems with mine
I have been lucky enough to never get the RROD or have issues with disc gouging. However, having worked in the video game industry for quite a number of years, I have seen quite a few consoles that do the disc gouging without being moved. So it is most definitely a design flaw. One they fixed on later consoles, but I can understand people being pissed.
Microsoft corporation is to big to be sued by the government. All the big corporation are in bed with the government
MS already lost the case; they're appealing the decision. The evidence has confirmed the allegations. I'm glad that MS is being held responsible for their errors. RROD, Disc Scratching, people were really tolerant of a system that had a lot of issues. It's fine to love the system after having enjoyed it, however, there has to be a standard of quality met; in regards to the 360 the standard of quality was not met. Just because a person here or there had not experienced the issue doesn't mean the issue did not occur.