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Sony: PS4 is 'an amazing platform' for VR, Delivering Images at '120fps'

VRFocus - Oculus VR might be stealing the virtual reality (VR) headlines with its Oculus Connect 2 developer conference in Hollywood, California this week, but neither Valve nor Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) are backing down either. The former hosted a VR talk at the EGX consumer show in Birmingham, UK yesterday and the latter has done the same today. Talking about its PlayStation VR head-mounted display (HMD), SCE noted that the PlayStation 4 console with which it runs is an ‘amazing’ platform for driving VR experiences.

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MasterCornholio1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

So either the games run in 120FPS natively or they run at 60FPS but are somehow upscaled (i dont know what to call it) to 120FPS.

Is that right?

Has anyone had any experience with these "upscaled games" and if you do what was the experience like?

Anyways thats an interesting article. Short and to the point.

Volkama1122d ago

Usually called frame interpolation rather than frame upscaling, but yeah. Most modern TVs have some capability to do that, but it adds input latency and has a weird overly processed look to it (google "soap opera effect).

Latency is a bigger concern with VR than with a normal display, so how Sony are addressing that I don't know. Maybe someone in the team had a few souls to trade on the demonic market.

MasterCornholio1122d ago

Thank you so much for explaining it to me.

Have a bubble for being helpful.

:)

reallyNow1122d ago

"soap opera effect" is people not being used to high frame rates, because usually films are displayed at less than 30fps. This isnt a problem in games, as gamers are accustomed to seeing games in all sorts of different frame rates.

Volkama1122d ago

Reallynow is also right, soap opera effect is because the different way we perceive detail on higher frame rates.

Still, essentially inserts a processed frame between each real frame based on previous frames, motion data, and ideally The following frames (easy on TV and such where it can keep a fair buffer of frames before displaying them, not so easy on interactive games).

If Sony can do this well enough for VR then the next playstation may actually pump out everything at 120fps. It's quite interesting even independent of the VR tech.

donthate1122d ago

Volkama:

Frame interpolation adds at least one frame delay which is added to the input latency ignoring any processing. A normal TV is supposed to have a 40ms input latency on average and almost considered bare minimum these days.

However, the latency on a VR screen can likely be done at a lower latency negating the latency from the frame delay. How low that is, is a big question and how that feels is another.

However, this interpolation to increase game experience outside of VR is kind of useless. The engine itself still picks up the input and does the collision detection at the original frame rate so there is no benefit there.

The interpolation might itself add artifacts to the screen or blurriness so it might even degrade the experience apart from the latency already degrading the experience.

There is no way around that yet as all the fixes are to compensate for the PS4 hardware (or lack thereof).

That is why I likely will go PC for this as a more sensible option, unless the cost factor is too big between the VR units. Even then the content might sway me in the Oculus Rift direction.

Volkama1121d ago (Edited 1121d ago )

@donthate I know the downsides of the tech. I also know that those downsides should be even more significant in the VR space. That is what makes it interesting imo.

We've heard the likes of Valve and Oculus talk about the necessity to have really low response times and such. Current implementations of frame interpolation on TVs work against that, and are not worth using for normal gaming. You'd think they would be awful for VR.

Yet Sony are putting the tech up for the ultimate scrutiny, and vesting their whole VR project on it.

Something about knowing the technological challenges and seeing someone else confidently say "we have figured out how to accomplish that" is always interesting to me, because if they are right it can have significant ramifications. Frame interpolation with low enough latency and artifacting for a VR experience? We'll see, but I like to play the optimist.

NukaCola1121d ago

Here's a question... How to you get a cinematic look while running at 60 frames or above? The "soap opera look" makes everything seem so fluid like looking through a window, but I think can ruin the director's vision. If The Order ran at 120 frames, it would not kook as cinematic for example.

spoonard1121d ago

It's not an "over processed" look. It's clarity. Did you see The Hobbit in 48fps and in 3D? It was the most amazing visual experience ever presented on a movie screen. It looked as though it were happening right in front of you. literally like you were seeing this stuff happen in real life.

sAVAge_bEaST1121d ago

F**k souls to sell. I had a chance to sell mine. and told the Circle to "Kick Rocks" - f--k fame-

JC is my Home Boy, and I don't plan to Die.

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

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Outthink_The_Room1122d ago

It's called "Reprojection".

It behaves in a similar way to Motion Plus on a television. It essentially interpolates frames to mask the judder needed for 120 fps.

There are alot of previews up. A few people have gotten sick due to drops in the game. You gotta realize, a drop of even 4 or 5 frames, is equal to 8 - 10 with reprojection.

So take all previews with a grain of salt, because it's tough to gauge since everyone reacts to motion sickness differently.

Genuine-User1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

Could you link some of the previews that mention motion sickness while/after using PSVR?

Rookie_Monster1121d ago (Edited 1121d ago )

@Genuine-User

"Could you link some of the previews that mention motion sickness while/after using PSVR?"

http://www.playstationlifes...
"love to explore the environments in my games, especially quality MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XIV(and incidentally, I have an on-and-off relationship with its predecessor, FFXI). But doing this in FFXIV not only started to hurt my neck from all the jerking around this way and that, but also started to nauseate me. I’ve never gotten sick on a roller coaster, video games, or on a plane or rough boat ride (of which I take many, living on a tiny island). Motion sickness was practically foreign to me, until this."

http://m.ign.com/articles/2...
"Having Project Morpheus on my head is very comfortable—it’s light and well padded—but it doesn’t block out the rest of the world as much as I’d like. My eyes also tire out quickly when wearing it, and I’m not yet convinced Sony’s adequately solved the technical issues that contribute to motion sickness. (I left my E3 appointment feeling pretty ill, unfortunately.)"

kneon1121d ago

There will always be some people that will feel sick even when it's working at it's best. Some people can't even what HFR movies without getting motion sickness so there's no way they will be able to handle VR.

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aerisbueller1122d ago

I haven't read anything about what they mean, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's like those tvs that can upscale the framerate to 60fps, which seems to work pretty well (though I don't like the effect as it makes everything look like a soap opera), but in this case since the ps4 is actually rendering the previous and next images, they might be able to use that to their advantage and make it even more seamless.

kenwonobi1122d ago

Yes. This is what the separate Pu is for. It helps the PS4 in this aspect to upscale all games played on Psvr to 120p for a smooth experience in virtual reality

CiliCanadian1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

The reprojection used by PS VR is very different than the interpolation what a TV use.
The reprojection used (to go from 60 FPS to 120 FPS) is not creation a intermediate image between the frame (like a smart TV does) which would create alot of lag (because it need the image before and after to render the middle one).
What reprojection actually do is reproject the EXACT SAME image as the previous frame but modify its position according to the head movement (move the position on the screen). This is done at very high speed (like 6ms) which does not add lag.
This can be used for a image already rendered to 120 FPS to improve positional accuracy since image rendering that more time than position adjustment.
The position is what make 90 FPS a requirement for 'good enough VR' for not the image itself. That why reprojection it make it possible to have a 60 FPS VR and avoid motion sickness in most people.
I believe most dev are using the reprojection capacity of PS VR regardless that they are making it 60 or 120 FPS. This improve the visual accuracity of the game.

mixelon1122d ago

Odd. Everything else I've read has said its just like motion interpolation.

donthate1121d ago

This is the first I have heard of it, but if you reproject it from a new point of view, you are messing even more with the image than interpolation.

What kind of algorithm would you use to reproject the image from shifted viewpoint?

So instead of adding latency, you are now adding in potentially significant artifact into the image depending on how you do it. If the reprojection is wrong it is going to look very odd.

I think this will be interesting to find out once they release and the masses of people start to use it and we get more accurate data about people's perception and experience.

CiliCanadian1121d ago (Edited 1121d ago )

@donthate and mixelon
here is a link that explains it.
https://youtu.be/WvtEXMlQQt...
Oculus use a similar technology which is explained very well in this video.

Volkama1121d ago

That's an interesting take. We know they can't use "next frames" in the tech without introducing horrible latency, but a slight shift in perspective on the same frame as you desribe could be possible.

It could potentially lead to a tiny amount of artifacting as the different angles allow you to see behind objects and edges to spaces that were not visible in the original frame. Those parts of the screen would need to be effectively made up... but the artifacting would be there for such a short time it might not be perceivable.

Kinda like "power 3d" mode on Tridef, but the shifted perspective wouldn't be constant.

moomoo3191121d ago

@mixelon

I think sony's method of achieving what they call "reprojection" is actually proprietary, so it wouldnt be exactly like another method of increasing framerate, such as motion interpolation

IGiveHugs2NakedWomen1121d ago

The term CiliCanadian is referring to is Asynchronous Reprojection.

IGiveHugs2NakedWomen1120d ago

To the 1 person that disagreed with my assertion that cilicanadian is referring to Asynchronous Reprojection:

http://www.roadtovr.com/son...

"Not every game will run natively at 120Hz. Developers who want to push graphical fidelity over blistering performance will have the option to render at 60 FPS and use the ‘Asynchronous Reprojection’ technique to output at 120 FPS."

http://xinreality.com/wiki/...

"Asynchronous Reprojection aka Timewarp - developers can render their game at 60 fps then use Asynchronous Reprojection to increase the fps to 120."

http://www.ischoolguide.com...

"There will also be two display modes available. Using an interpolation method called "asynchronous reprojection," the game would render at 60 Hz and be bumped up to 120 Hz for display. With the two modes, developers now have two options."

That's a bit of overkill for the point I'm trying to make, but anyone who has two eyes and is able to read will clearly see what Asynchronous Reprojection is and how Playstation VR uses it.

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1121d ago
kraenk121121d ago

I'm really hoping PSVR and VR in general will have a similar impact on me like the PS1 had back in the days. Gaming lately started to kinda bore me. Let's hope it's really a game changer.

ps4fanboy1121d ago

My Sony projector adds frames , too much you get soap opera effect.

nitus101121d ago

If you wish to know the full specs of the PlayStation VR headset then the following URL may be helpful: http://www.wareable.com/pro...

Basically from the article the specs are:

Full HD 1920 x 1080 display, but ups it from 5-inches to 5.7-inches, which gives a 100-degree field of vision. It also features RGB subpixels, which help smooth out the image.

A more important upgrade here is to the refresh rate, which runs at a 120Hz instead of 60Hz - higher than both the Oculus Rift and HTC Vive's 90Hz. Early games won't natively run at 120 FPS - instead the PlayStation4's reprojection software will add an extra "tween" every frame to make it feel like they are, but the overall experience should be silky-smooth.

Davi1231121d ago

What i have read about it. Is that PSVR can't run 120FPS but, have the possibility to make one frame from 2 frames. From one of behind and other from ahead. Some developers like, others not. I think will depend of the developer, if the game it looks good using this upscaled. Then, they will release the game with 120FPS, if not to 60FPS.

Dinkleberg1011121d ago

might as well deliver it in 420p ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °)

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RzaDaRazor1122d ago

PS4 can't even do 60fps on it's own AAA titles. How the hell is it going to reach 120fps in VR? Get ready for PS2 level graphics.

S2Killinit1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

There is a seperate processor that comes with the headset. You have to experience VR, i cant tell you about it. Oh and trust me, the graphics are fine, but VR is about much more than just graphics.

MasterCornholio1122d ago

Thats the thing that looks like a mini power brick right?

RzaDaRazor1122d ago

So the guy in the article is lying. The PS4 is NOT capable of 120fps VR at all, it needs a separate computer to assist. That makes much more sense.

krouse931122d ago

Can you send an article to verify that? This is the first I've heard of a separate processor! Sounds cool though.

MasterCornholio1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

@Krou

Here it is.

http://www.dualshockers.com...

"The official spec sheet of the prototype of Sony’s Project Morpheus virtual reality headset mentions the “processor unit” that we’ve seen in the form of a black box cabled between the PS4 and the headset itself."

"The unit contains three separate processors: a Digital Sound Processor (DSP), a Frame Rate Conversion (FRC) unit and a third chip to correct lens distortion."

And a picture.

http://www.roadtovr.com/wp-...

ps4joel1122d ago

A handful of PlayStation VR titles are set to run natively at 120fps, including Mixed Bag Games’ Futuridium VR. But many others will be locked at 60fps, with SCE getting around this hurdle by offering 120fps ‘reprojection’.

read the article please @RzaDaRazor

Outthink_The_Room1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

@S2Killin

That's actually incorrect.

It has a sound processor, frame rate converter (for reprojection) and a distortion limiter for the screen.

None of those actually do computing for graphics. So from a game dev standpoint, Morpheus doesn't get an increase in processing power because of hardware inside the HMD.

S2Killinit1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

@outthink
He was saying he didnt think PS4 could achieve proper VR, so i let him know some of the task is being done through the external processor/converter. Im not saying it does/doesnt do processing. Also i think they were not clear as to what exactly the hardware does, they just mentioned the tasks you pointed out and nothing else. There has been speculation that maybe it only does those things while others think that maybe it does processing as well that just wasnt mentioned. I guess we will find out.

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BG115791122d ago

I have heard that the PlaystationVR comes with onboard tech in the goggles themselves to improve performance.
The frame-rate is not the most incredible thing about it. At an event, there were 4 players with VR goggles connected to a PS4 playing together in the same game...
For me that is also voodoo magic.

Nivekki1122d ago

Expect simple games to start of with, and complex games to follow. Anyone who expects more are just setting themselves up for a fall.

MysticStrummer1122d ago

I guess it depends on how you define "complex", but I think the rumor that No Man's Sky will support VR will turn out to be true. That's a pretty good game to start with imo.

S2Killinit1122d ago

Once you put it on you'll be so engaged that the graphics wont necessarily make or break a game for you. Of course graphics are ALWAYS welcome, especially in a device whose appeal has to do with immersion, but the thing has so much charm that doesnt have anything to do with the graphics that you wont mind the graphics too much with the simpler games. But yeah, the possibilities are out there.

IamTylerDurden11121d ago

London Heist, Rigs, and No Man's Sky are pretty complex to me. They all are different aspects of complexity as well - fast competitive arena shooter (in Mechs!), linear high action heist FPS w/high story elements, a massive open universe to explore on ship and foot. The are real deal games.

Electro_UK1122d ago

It reprojects titles in 120fps. They don't have to be running in it natively.

1121d ago
_-EDMIX-_1121d ago

Resolution and frame rate is actually game dependent and not system.

Sooo "PS4 can't even do 60fps" doesn't really make sense as a statement as PS3 has Wipeout HD running 60fps native 1080p.

Its a matter of what game, how demanding the engine is, effects etc.

Mind you the headset comes with 3 different processors to asset with the GPU on the PS4, as to why PS VR is actually able to push those settings.

http://www.dualshockers.com...

@Rza- " The PS4 is NOT capable of 120fps VR" I mean..statements like this only show just how little many on here know about hardware and gaming.

The system is not doing that as much as the game is doing that, its game dependent. Yet...Wipeout on PS3 did 60fps...

If we took a PS1 game....put it on PS4,120 frames is not only doable, I question if they couldn't do MORE! lol, if a ground up PS3 game can do it...a PS1 game on PS3 imho could pull easily 100 plus FPS..

on PS3...

On PS4....who knows. Its not based on the hardware, its based on the software, what engine its running, its effects and over all how demanding is it.

I mean..if your argument against VR is its not powerful enough... the proof of concept exist, its already being used and played, one can't just state it "can't" do something ITS ALREADY DOING.

If your argument is PS4 doesn't have the processing power...PSVR has 3 different CPU's to offset that..

If your argument is AAA can't use it at high frames, who says AAA's are needed for this to actually take off and work and be supported? Not every experience gamers want is some Micheal Bay type game.

Yet Rigs exist, yet the Heist exist, yet EVE Valkyrie exist. Never mind AAA, I merely want a immersive experience...

I think we sorta know we won't be getting MAXED OUT PS4 games on VR...

But if it looks like PS3 maxed out in 60fps...I'll take it, its really all about perception.

I mean...since when did it looking like a maxed out PS4 game become some requirement?

Craziest thing...games did pretty good last gen before PS4 lol! That is like saying "I don't know bro, Horizon looks good, but it doesn't look PS5 good"

I mean...it doesn't, but exactly what does that have to do with Horizon's success? So what would hurt VR if a game looked like a PS3 game due to processing power of VR?

I'll take Heavy Rain in VR..I'll take Killzone 2...in VR, in fact, I'll take many, many low processing games from last gen in VR as they where still amazing looking titles.

We are only really stating this based on comparison of maxed out PS4 games..the reality is, what they do with VR,maxed out looking PS4 or not is still amazing. Its all a matter of perception. If they put P.T or Allison Road in VR...I'll flip! I mean its likely happening for OR if not by the team, then by fans modding it lol.

VR like S2K stated..its more then just graphics. Other systems having better graphics in the future don't just make what your playing today crap... Their will always be better, that doesn't hurt current.

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jon_snow1122d ago

PS Vr all set to be amazing device but success now depends on the price.
Sweet price is 299$
If at 199$ it would be mega hit but at 399$ it would be tough unless software to support it.

deadpoolio3161122d ago

Well its not going to be cheap....They don't care about people gaming on a budget, this is going to end up being more for the people who can afford it...It will probably be around the $200-$250 range, but people will still cry about the price as if everything should be $99 dollars, some in 2015 still have problems understanding that gaming is a want and not a need

S2Killinit1122d ago

They have already mentioned that it will be priced like a console. Which suggests 349-425. This stuff is NOT going to be cheap. The Oculus will be even more expensive. So yeah, if youre looking for a really accessible price of 250, you will have to wait a bit. For me its a day one purchase but i understand that price is very important.

Muadiib1122d ago

The Oculus Rift will be cheaper, mark my words.

S2Killinit1122d ago (Edited 1122d ago )

@maudiib
I think they've already promissed that there will be "3rd party" offers for $1000 including a PC to run it on. Generally speaking i think its safe to say that starting from scratch, the PC/ oculus bundle will be more expensive than the PS4/PSVR bundle. As a standalone im still going to go out on a limb and say the hardware company can probably sell it cheaper than the facebook company. Unless of course facebook diggs deep in its massive pockets and takes a hit on the oculus. In which case its anybody's guess.

kraenk121121d ago

The OR us targeted at 300$ for the final version...right from the start.

nitus101121d ago

You are quite right price is important however quality, functionality and performance are even more important. Just buying on price is very short sighted.

From the specs on the PlayStation VR it is true 1080p (aspect ratio 16:9) and is capable of displaying at 120fps. When you have something like that close to your eyes it will appear that you are effectively viewing a huge HDTV of possibly over 100" except you would not be able to see the individual pixels.

One important thing to be aware of is that not everyone can handle a VR headset so I do recommend you try it for at least 10 to 15 minutes.

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kenwonobi1122d ago

I'm hoping there is a middle ground. 250-350 is not so bad a price and technically in the range of a console price.

S2Killinit1122d ago

All i can say is, its going to be a very good time to be a gamer.

Detox0241122d ago

Wait a minute. Hold on a second. Sony says something positive about playstation. That's crazy didn't see it coming.