Carmack sits down with gametrailers.com expressing his thoughts and concerns with developing rage on ps3 and 360
So basically all these games that have been released on the 360 have been basically limited to 7gb per DVD because microsoft takes 2 gbs off to set up the security architecture within the disc. wow. so devs basically have been cutting corners to make all their content fit into the disc.
From my point of view, corners are being cut so the PS3 can proccess code on the same level as the 360, that is more worrying(to me). The game is already on two disc all they need to do is convince MSFT on the 3rd, I'm more worried about PS3 being the lowest common denominator when it comes to proccessing power.
PoG, please. the PS3's Cell Prcocessor is stronger than the Xenon. its just more complex to develop for. Here, take this class. http://cag.csail.mit.edu/ps...
the 360 is a great console man.. if the ps3 has some more horse power it's ok.. you don't have to go crazy and make up crap in order to make yourself feel better... the cell is hard to develop but has more power cause of the spus, bluray has more space.. and the 360 is easier to develop and "most" games so far only need 7gb or less... so what's the problem?? 360 owners enjoys games in the 360, ps3 owners in their ps3s... we're all gamers..
"From my point of view, corners are being cut so the PS3 can proccess code on the same level as the 360, that is more WORRYING (to me)." "I'm more WORRIED about PS3 being the lowest common denominator when it comes to proccessing power" Let's assume that what you are saying is true....(key word, ASSUME) I've never seen seen a person WORRY so damn much about something that they DON'T OWN......... here's a little advice........STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE PS3 BUDDY!!!
Looks like Sony powerful PS3 is turning out to be the system to get this gen.
To the People Disagreeing with me: JOHN CARMACK stated that microsoft takes 2 Gibabytes off the DVD9 (DUAL LAYED DVD) for security Purposes, leaving the Developer to work with 7 GIGABYTES of DVD space. I did not spin this, he states it in this interview. Think about this really hard. If Microsoft Had a HDD as Standard, this would not be such a problem. Thats why Installs are good.
"360's got the advantage of having easy to develop hardware" - carkmack. EDIT- sorry miss interpreted it for a split second.
once again , this is a proof that the 360 is holding back the development on multi-platform games. just discontinue the 360 Microsoft ,it's doing more harm than good, and apparently , it's not gonna keep up with the more up to date tech on the PS3.
Worried that the PS3 is the lowest common denominator? Yeah, and I'm busy playing great games... On both consoles. Give up the fanboy arguments POG and you might get along with the folks here. Carmack is aware of what it takes to develop on both platforms and knows that both have their issues. Interestingly enough however, he sees that the PS3 was in fact made future proof while the 360 was not. It's the sprint (360) versus the long haul (PS3).
lol @ pog
The greatest day in gaming history was the day John Carmack first walked by a computer and said, "Cool. How does that thing work?" Carmack was speaking of the fact that MS makes developers give up roughly 2GBs per disk just for security measures.
and yet I am surprised that he is still as closed as he is to the PS3 and what it can offer. It seems that because it is out of his comfort zone of PC or PC-like development he is unwilling to explore it's potential. I thought a guy of his talent would be the exact opposite. I thought he'd be excited for something new and innovative. I mean lets face it, PC chips aren't going to be the same architecture for ever more, right? So he would have to get used to new hardware sometime. What's wrong with the PS3 being that new hardware? I am just talking hardware-wise here, he obviously doesn't like MS for other reasons he discusses.
But he is exploring it's potential. He isn't happy with the architecture but he is working to see what they can get out of it. As he said, "It is what it is." He is a very objective guy. I have met him a couple of times and yes he is very independent minded yet has the weird ability not to close the door on any possibilities. It may seem like that but you can bet he is busting his ass and at the end of the day will do something really wild with the OS3 architecture. If you notice he doesn't give two craps about the need to make both platforms versions look the same. Neither does Todd Hollenshead.
just by listening to this and taking this conversation to another situation, how the hell is square enix going to pull this off with FFXIII on the 360?
Looks like SE is fully supported by MS. No matter how much the disc will be..MS should provide it easily for them.
Seem like developers who want their games to be biggest and the baddest will go with the PS3..The system is poweful its just a pain to work with and blu ray give developers the nesssscary space to let their imagination go free..
Where are the documents detailing the full MS support for Square Enix? You know where they are? No you do not because they do not exist and you are just making things up so 360 owners can sleep better at night. In reality, the facts say just the opposite to that which you claim. SE currently has no idea how they are going to make FF13 work and they admitted as much. No where did they say, "MS is going to let us use the HDD and they are going to foot the bill for extra disks." SE is currently in a worse boat than Id because they are just beginning to look at that mountain they have to climb.
Hey morganfell dont worry about M$ they always have something up their sleeves.. Just about a month ago you would think I was crazy if I told you that FF13 is coming to the 360 right?
HoW will PS3 keep from being left in the dust in the future?. Dam, so devs basically have been cutting corners to make all their content simular on all platforms by gimping games so that PS3 hardware can run games?.
PoG take your spins-------------->that way. 7gbs is not enough. games form last Generation like MGS3 and GTA: San Andreas filled up the DVD9 to 7gbs.
You mean the way they gimped GTA4 due to lack of space on the DVD9? Of course now items that should have been on the disk for $59 now get dropped on 360 owners for an extra price. But then again, you guys like paying for extras like multiplayer and WiFi.
These guys wanna put a FPS on 3 discs which is inane. But having it on 3 discs would cost too much money and they have it on 2 discs which could possibly lower the quality of the game overall. I hope Microsoft helps these guys out with this. Sure PS3 version gets a nice long install (7 minutes) but I don't see how that would cost them as much as having another disc or does and having an install doesn't lower the quality of the game. I hope this guy's game is good at least.
lol @ pog again he can never come up with a sane comment.
how do you play a fps shooter with two dvds, do you have to switch disks all the time
well its going to happen. i never seen that before, except for RPGs, which is allowable since they are a mixture of Long stories, CGI and of course gameplay.
glad to be a ps3 owner
I agree, this Id crying/concern is legit but should not be used as a universal tool by the supporters of MSFT's competition. MSFT already has 4 disc games, the problem is Id doesn't wan't to pic up the royalty fee's other MSFT published and financed multi disc games get. SE's MSFT support could cause problems(with Sony fans) as MSFT will make sure that product is the best it can be on their platform.
You have a strange way of spinning news. Carmack, a GAME DEVELOPER states DVD are possing a problem. People have said this since the 360 was conceved, why does it bother you so much now? Not sure what SE Enix have to do with anything? But regarding FF13 PS3 is the lead platform, now if you take multiplat games that begin on the PS3 everyone gets a better game, just be thankful to recieve an equal port of a game you wouldnt of even been able to play 2 months ago. Get off your high horse basically and just enjoy the games. Regardless who gets better shoe lace textures.
Wow seriously? Please do not tell me you just actually posted this, "MSFT already has 4 disc games, the problem is Id doesn't wan't to pic up the royalty fee's other MSFT published and financed multi disc games get" to the general public to see. And I'm not talking about the spelling errors either. The only multi discs games that I know of for the 360 are Blue Dragon (3) and Lost Odyssey (4), both developed by Mistwalker (360 second party) and published by Microsoft. Since they are published by Microsoft, there's no need to pay the royalty fee. Other third party developers/publishers however need to pay that fee because their games are not published by MS. Not to mention that there are only few multi discs games released for the 360, and they're all published by MS. So tell me why exactly do these developers have to pay for royalty fee when they're making games for the console? I just don't understand why would you charge a fee for "royalty" other than the fact of making more money. Despite the royalty fee, I doubt SE will have any issues publishing FFXIII, because if MS is smart, they would let SE publish FFXIII on as many discs as possible.
POG you take the cake for being desperate. It is like a comedy listening to you now. I guess it is a sign of the changing times. The handwriting is on the wall for the 360 and now you just start throwing things up there and seeing if something will stick. It is actually pretty pathetic. At least have the grace and dignity to bow out with some small shred of honor.
Not sure what you are talking about, when it comes to FF13 on the 360. I said there is a quality control for 360 games and the joint efforts and the calibur of this title(FF) will allow for whatever it takes for FF13 to be the best it can be on the Xbox platform. I was simple saying, PS3 fans can not use Id's issue and apply it to all the games they can use as an tool to flame, more specifically FF13. The multi disc royalties for FF will be covered for sure regardless of MSFT not publishing the game. When I said this: "SE's MSFT support could cause problems(with Sony fans)" ^^ I was saying FF13 results due to the joint efforts may surprize gamers(PS3 fans)meaning piss them off despite being a Port of PS3, are you following?. Kind of funny you should type all that, when all you had to do is, read my post you're responding to lol.
@PoG - Do you realize what these royalty fees are for? To make sure it's a pain in the ass everytime a dev "even thinks" about making a multi-disc release on the 360. They will probably end up stuffing everything on a single disc, cut some content here and there and crank down the overall quality because of these fees. MSFT want's to prove that DVD9 is enough for this gen, and still they produce multi-disc (Blue Dragon, Lost Oddysey, Forza 3) games themself and admit cutting content from games to make them fit (PGR4 I think, or PGR 3 no idea what it was) so no fan can say bluray is necessary, guess what, it is! Carmack has the guts to sacrifice the 360 version (seriously is anyone buying it on the 360 now knowing what you get?) in terms of marketing to change MSFTs strategy. I think he wants other developers to yell at MSFT, too. And PS3 fans were so angry about FF13 multi because MSFT doesn't care much about gamers, they get a huge brand name (FinalFantasy), they don't care if they f. up the quality of the game, they are convinced it'll sell great regardless of 6 discs or 2 with one third of the content. Well time will tell about this one, if MSFT will prove me wrong they haven't done it because of the gamers, but because they are smart not to make such a big mistake.
I'm upgrading it to LMFAO.
Lol @ switching discs for an FPS. No thanks.
But really you can have multiple discs on the 360 or a several minute install on the PS3. Both will take a couple of minutes and to me are a non issue in either case. The big issue is that MS is forcing developers to pay exorbitant royalties on multiple DVD games or to increase compression on less discs, because MS refuses to allow compulsory HDD installs.
Right. One pulls you out of the game, forces you off the couch and means you have to pop disks in and out of the case multiple times and one doesn't. Hardly comparable at all. Trying to equate those two vastly different issues just reeks of people hating second place and unwilling to accept a fact that was predicted from the onset - the death of DVD9. It is beginning to come to fruition with major games so people had better get ready. This issue isn't going to pass with Id and in fact will only get worse.
I agree with Super that disc-swapping isn't a big issue as most make it out to be. It's the compromise of quality that's the real issue. This all though still reiterates how Sony knew all along that DVD9 isn't going to be enough for this generation.
you need to change your picture because the force is not strong with you. Your about as dumb as rock dude.. 360 have been holding games back not the ps3.... A lot of devs have been stating this.. Ps3 is just a little harder for some devs because there is so much power in the system to untap.. This will all change soon once developers learn the ps3's architecture.. Which it already is.. Any 360 game can be easily made on the ps3.. the same cant be said about the 360. Uncharted, gt5, mgs4, motorstorm, and ratchet couldnt be done on the 360..
Microsoft f*cked up big time with DVD9. Perhaps it's time that the nails in the PS3's coffin comes out and gets inserted into the 360 coffin. 2 disks for an RPG sounds ok but for a FPS just isn't right, Microsoft is making a big mistake by not letting them requiring a HHD.
I thought he spoke really well and pointed out the unique problems with both systems. Nice to hear someone explain things with the proper expertise and with such openness. Lets hope MS and Sony are listening! :)
OMG some times I wonder why I bother! lol How can anybody rationally disagree with the above? There's at least five of you... so please explain. ;)
i think that people are disagreeing with you because your post seem to have a little bit of damage control tone applied to it. if you listen to the interview, the only slight negative thing he had to say about the ps3 was that it's harder to program for.....and i take it that most people expect that with newer things, and technology.... for example: the first few times you ride a bike, or the first few times you try to swim, or the first few times you played basket ball..... anyways, first few times are generally the hardest time to do most things. and that is also true when it comes to technology. but compared to what he had to say about the 360, you're post seem to suffer from a little bit of selective amnesia. 3 dvds with compression to match one bluray disc. and then he went on about the possibilities of what you can do a dual layered bluray disc...... i mean cmon, you had to be really skewed in order to find that they both had equal amounts of negativity from that interview. i'd say it was a mostly positive ps3 interview....
But as far as I'm concerned I made a neutral statement and the disagrees are the ones colouring my statement. In fact I noted the major issue of the DVD further up. ;)
So third party games are limited to 7gb in most cases.. and crappy ports to PS3.. At least we have some 1st party games
Of course Carmack knows, do you guys not know who he is? Carmack is THE MAN when it comes to game programming and creating 3D graphics....this guy pioneered so many graphic techniques that have now become a standard. Not to mention that Id literally created the first person shooter AND the online multiplayer component of FPS games as well. Legends.
I agree, but when it comes down to specific hardware he hasn't have a lot of experience. He treats consoles like PCs. Consoles - although same components (CPU GPU RAM) - are different. They don't need ridiculous amounts of RAM for example (I have 4 GB RAM in my PC and at least 2 are in constant use while NOT running a game). Cell is another Story. Remember Carmack yelling about MultiCore CPUs back when they came out? It's different to program for MultiCore thats why he doesn't like it. Cell must be his worst nightmare considering it has 1 core and 7 SPUs. But who can blame the guy, he is used to programming for 1 CPU for about 20 years now and a change is harder for him than for younger developers. I just hope he wouldn't try to crush down new Technology just because he doesn't like it. Don't get me wrong I am aware that it is harder to develop for the cell at this point, it's a completely new architecture and the tools that have been developed for the usual architecture have had their first versions almost 20 years ago. Cell is brand new and it will take time to make development on the Cell as easy.
Yeah I agree, he's obviously not like Gabe Newell who will completely outright bash the PS3 and hate it for no good reason. Carmack is even at least trying to work with the PS3. I bet once he gets his head around it, maybe the "pain" of developing for it won't be as bad in their next game. It's all part of the process of learning. Look at how a lot of developers complained about the PS2 developement. Now they can make a PS2 game and pull it out of their ass like nothing. And look at the developers who do have their heads around PS3 development like Insomniac. They are one of the Kings of the PS3, yet they still learn a lot every single time they develope a new game.
I've started to learn C++ a few weeks ago and already have programmed some text based games (nothing special, simple little stuff like GuessMyNumber where the PC picks a number a you have to guess it). I don't have the skills yet to program this stuff on a level like an experienced programmer would do it, so I am using complex workarounds to get to the same result. Means I need a lot more time and confusing program structure to compromise the lack of knowledge. Kinda like Carmack if he programs for the Cell. This little game I did has 379 lines of code (People with C++ experience will know why 379 lines for just that is like building a house with toothpicks), I am certain I will be able to do the same with 50 lines or even less in a few weeks.
just listen to this guy make's me think about several things like: he is really mad about the support with Microsoft he is not a Sony fan, but he will he is very well educated and cultivate GAME DEVELOPER... (not a little fat kid wit a very oiled skin with no friends and a very poor or even zero $exual life like POG) (if u wanna see that i am not a horrible kid like pog in real life check my profile and my web) i just see some angry Game developer that thinks Microsoft charges for everything (and we just know that's the truth)... edit: OMG someone fart at 2:20 silogon bubbles for ur impressive ears
Guys, he totally $#*T his pants at 2:20 ahhahahahahahahahahahaah check it out. Turn it up! ahahahahhahaha
Just when I thought I was the only one who heard that. Hahaha
Or a mature adult can see that it's the Microphone or an audio glitch. But I guess the kid in me can also pretend it's a fart and it's pretty funny lol.
Man, John ripped major @$$ at 2:20 into the interview. ahahahhahaah guys, that is classic. ahhhahahaha That is to 10 x's funnier than giant enemy crab but no one will call him on it.
Carmack spoke well. That PS3 is harder to code for is already well know, but i`m glad some PC developers (ID software hasn`t made many, if any, console games before this gen) actually makes games themselves instead of handing them over, like Valve do. That way, their next game will be better too. Rage looks interesting, hope it turns out well.
yea i think the video speaks for itself...
he basically breaks it down for us: both consoles are powerful. you can get some really good performance from the PS3, you just need to work at it, but a lot of the same language used in PC development can be used in the PS3. DVD sucks. DVD royalties per disc suck (so, basically, MS is charging developers for MICROSOFT'S mistake and short-sightedness. nice /sarcasm). they'd like to use 3 discs, ideally, as that would let them match the ONE Blu Ray, but it's just not economically feasible due to those royalties. Microsoft "refuses to let them require the HDD," which could help certain issues they are facing. Blu Ray is excellent for large games. this trend is only going to continue, when developers that are KNOWN for pushing technology and visuals forward start having problems with the various constraints. from what i gathered from the interview, Carmack doesn't hate the PS3 with a seething rage like Gabe Newell, and he even says that devs should count their blessings, as a lot of the tools in the olden days were even HARDER to work with than the PS3 architecture. his complaint with the PS3 is resolved over time, as his team gets more comfortable working with the architecture. his complaints on the 360 are not resolved that easily, mostly because of Microsoft. if MS would be "man enough" to admit their mistake, and allow the devs that need it to require the HDD, and not charge exorbitant fees per disc, it'd be better for ALL of us; 1) Microsoft; they wouldn't continuously lose ground as more and more consumers see the benefits/value of picking up a PS3 over 360. 2) Developers/Publishers; wouldn't have to sacrifice the quality of their games to squeeze them into 7gigs of data per disc, and wouldn't have to literally PAY for Microsoft's mistake 3) Gamers; we wouldn't have to get a lower quality version of what the developers intended. i find it hilariously ironic that the only thing holding the 360 back from being able to become a near-equal to the PS3 is disc space and hard drive. the two things that Sony championed from the BEGINNING. it's even more ironic that it was Microsoft THEMSELVES that put a hard drive in the original Xbox, which prompted Sony to realize the value of having an HDD standard in all units.
all these comments make me think of what it would be like if Fable 2 were a PS3 exclusive. It really makes me wonder about a lot of games.
let the truth be heard
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