Sony responds to WipEout epilepsy report

CVG: "We take consumer safety very seriously," Sony tells us.

Sony has issued a response after we learned that the silent delay of PSN title WipEout HD was due to it failing epilepsy tests.

CVG was told on Tuesday this week that WipEout "fails the epilepsy tests so much that it has to be re-engineered," hence the game's absence from E3, despite us having had what appears to be a near complete version for AGES.

Sony has neither confirmed or denied the report, only saying CVG: "Regarding the speculation about health issues, we can assure you that we take consumer safety very seriously and monitor it very carefully."

[thor]

In other news, they are ADDING SPLITSCREEN to this game (only 2-player, but still welcome), as well as reverse versions of all the tracks, new ships and a choice of heads up displays! Split-screen is worth the delay to this game IMO.

Edit: They're adding trophies too! Almost forgot. This is surely going to be one stand-out title.

[SpaZaA]

I was excited for WHD, however I looked at it as a partial game, due to the few tracks/vehicles and no split screen. The delay may turn out to be the best thing for this game. Now it's going to be a fully robust experience and well worth the likely $39.99 price tag.

[JoelR]

Split Screen
Reverse Tracks
Trophies

all worthy editions ^_^

[Bordel_1900]

I think this whole epilepsy thing is just bullshit. Wipeout never got delayed because of not passing an epilepsy test. That was just a rumour put out there by CVG, wich they have no proof or confirmation for.

[killax3563]

In 1997, 618 Japanese kids had epileptic seizures after watching a specific episode of Pokemon.

http://www.animenewsnetwork...

I'm pretty sure that specific episode was never shown in America or again in Japan for that reason.

[thor]

Your source itself clearly states that those with photosensitive epilepsy could have it triggered by slow-flashing, high contrast lights which are "common in TV programmes and video games". So of course wipeout could cause epileptic fits, but so could lots of games or tv programmes, it doesn't stop them being released.

[killax3563]

so what? my point is that its not bunk.

besides, Sony seems to have an 'epilepsy test' which all games are supposed to pass b/f they get certified. this game obviously didn't pass the test so back to the drawing board.

EDIT: @3.4, are u stupid? like I said Sony has an 'epilepsy test' that games must pass b/f they get Sony's stamp of approval. games that have been released for the ps3 (and probably ps2 and ps1) have passed that test so there's minimal risk of epilepsy.

and since when does Sony take responsibility for what's on tv and the subway? if a dude gets an epilepsy b/c of subway lights are they going to sue Sony? No. If they get an epelipsy playing a game on the ps3 are they going to sue Sony? Yes (and sony and the ps3 will get a s--tload of badpress to boot).

[thor]

But WHY would you stop your own game from being released, knowing full well that there are other games available, as well as television broadcasting, that cause epilepsy in the exact same way?

[SpaZaA]

geez, that's a hard one. /sarcasm.

Maybe to ensure consumers are safe and to avoid possible lawsuits?
I could care less if you yourself don't mind taking the risk of causing seizures to friends or family members you may have watching the same TV as you. However most people would agree, there shouldn't be this risk.

There are NOT many cases of people taking seizures from movies/games/etc due to the fact there is testing to ensure the safety of the general public.

Your reasoning is childish and ignorant. But then again you most likely are the same type of person who would leave a loaded gun in an unlocked drawer and feel "fine" with it.

[mirroredderorrim]

Should we stop making games because people are born epileptic? No, because most people aren't epileptic. Wouldn't make sense to single everyone out. Unfortunately some people with authority do not think so.

[JoelR]

You do know that under the right circumstances _ANYONE_ can be induced into an epileptic fit right?

[Armyless]

"Photosensitivity occurs in only about 3% of people with epilepsy, however, so almost all children who have epilepsy should be able to play video games without ill effects."

http://www.epilepsy.com/inf...

[JoelR]

Basically I have never said that one factor is the only trigger
you make assumptions that are not there about my viewpoint.

Video games can induce as can any activity - you need the right mix of factors - you assume I mean only light induced (find a place where I said that)
Epilepsy can be triggered by any number of factors - including genetics, audio stimulation, touch, mental stimulation, visual stimulation and many other things including drugs and dopamine levels....

video games can bring a convergence of many of these factors together
audio, video, touch, mental etc... and that may trigger if it breachs the threshold for any one person.

--- at below ---

a hazzard is a hazzard is a hazzard
It's better to lower a risk if you can (and you have a legal responsible to reduce risk if you are selling a product)

- and again you assume that it is photosentivity that causes it...

[Armyless]

"Parents who are unsure whether a child who has epilepsy is photosensitive should check with the doctor. This can usually be determined from their EEG test. Photosensitive children may be able to play some games quite safely but have problems with others. Medication or blue polarized sunglasses can often prevent seizures caused by photosensitivity."

http://www.epilepsy.com/inf...

Why you think we should shield the entire planet's population and limit the content of creative expression for the rare among rare is beyond me.

[thewhoopimen]

.... as if a Parent's first worrying priority is their kid suffering from visual/audio induced epileptic seizures... come on....

Sony's just doing a good thing for its community. get over it.

[Bleyd]

That videogames alone can cause epileptic fits in "ANYONE" as you put it. Yes, there is a lot of interaction and immersion involved in playing a videogame but at the same time there's at least a hundred times more in real life. If videogames could cause anyone to have epileptic fits then you would most certainly have a widespread epidemic in the world with epileptic seizures as people drive down the road at night or play football or anything else.

I do applaud Sony for trying to stay within the "safe" guidelines set by government in regards to this but I also applaud someone for not jaywalking and also for not riding your bike on the road when there is a perfectly good sidewalk available. My point is that ANYTHING can be dangerous no matter how mild it may seem but there's no point in going overboard and walking around in bubble wrap clothing your whole life.

As to the flashing lights event causing epileptic seizures a slow flickering of lights by about one cycle per second can also cause seizures in a really rare percentage of the population. Is that cause enough to stop all videogames from being released? No. Should 1% of the world's population be cause enough to make one game go back to the drawing board? You say, yes, apparently. I on the other hand say slap a warning label on it and release it anyway. Don't make the 99% of the world suffer just because 1% can't have the same kind of fun too.

[thor]

Yes I am dubious about the epilepsy claim. I mean, they just put a warning on stuff like that. And how, possibly, could wipeout be any worse than FLASHING STROBE LIGHTS on TV programmes (which come with a warning) or strobes in clubs? I think the reason they have not denied this claim is because they are having some developmental issues on the PS3 (not able to hit 60fps, or not able to run at full 1080p, which they have advertised heavily) and don't want to admit it.

[Bordel_1900]

Right, that's what I mean. They have technical problems with the title, it hasn't got anything to do with epilepsy, that's a rumour only that people are taking as fact.

[thewhoopimen]

Here's the question... so what if it is? Should Sony release it as-is then? Who cares if its delayed. It isn't an AAA title.

and btw... it has been running at 1080p / 60fps since the beginning

[Fishy Fingers]

Epilepsy Missile? Upon contact cranking up your victims brightness and strobe lighting, quickly inducing a fit (no long term damage).

Hoot for muliplayer.

My quick moke up ;) >> http://img139.imageshack.us...

[thor]

LOL bubbles for the laugh

[JoelR]

it's funny but unfortunately there is no way to induce epilepsy without permanently creating a susceptibility to epilepsy

[Armyless]

"The general consensus among experts is that exposure to computer and video games does not cause epilepsy."

http://www.jimsokolove.com/...

[juuken]

I really want to play this game. :[

I have never played a Wipeout game before.

[Trinity_Marc_Blu]

The 1st one I've played was Wipeout Pure for the psp, it was great and this one looks sooo much better.

too bad we have to wait now. ;-/

[TheColbertinator]

Check out the conversation about epilepsy in the gamer zone.Very intelligent and well documented.Playstation gamers for sure

[juuken]

Uh...lol at everyone over at gamerzone. .__.;

[Salta_nelas]

having troubles reaching 60fps/1080p, you are sadly mistaken.
The game has been running like that since the begining of 2008 with no problems, just read previews and they say the game runs like bliss.

[Armyless]

like Aliens...

Why do games get this these tests?

[JoelR]

because it is possible to induce in ANYONE under the right circumstances and movies also have to pass hazzard testing for epilepsy

[Armyless]

"Stress, fatigue, or hyperventilation may trigger seizures during video games in some children who have epilepsy."

http://www.epilepsy.com/inf...

[JoelR]

I have never argued that light triggers alone are the cause - read again. But any activity with the wrong subset of factors can cause induced epilepsy.

http://www.freedomfchs.com/...

http://www.aquafoam.com/pap...

[Armyless]

If Epileptic children (approx 1 in 130 to 200) also happen to be "photosensitive" (to which flashing lights, flickering images, or certain color sequences can trigger seizures or create patterns on the electroencephalogram (EEG) that are typical of epilepsy. http://www.epilepsy.com/inf... ) then they and their parents should take steps to avoid ANY stimulation which can induce seizures or seizure-like EEG's. The 3% of .5% should not dictate to the rest of the world how we should live, as though we ALL suffered from this incredibly rare condition.

[JoelR]

Epilepsy can be triggered in anyone under the right circumstances (ask the psy-op warfare guys at http://www.carlisle.army.mi... )

If the game is engineered wrong you don't get the .01% that would normally be susceptible but possibly create a situation as high as 10% of all players developing epilepsy. (people spontaneously develop epilepsy under the right circumstances - This could be you and you'd be pissed because you no longer could play most video games)

Larry Dodgen, "Nonlethal Weapons," U.S. News and World Report, 4 August 1997, p. 5

Victor I. Solntsev, "Information War and Some Aspects of a Computer Operator's Defense," talk given at an Infowar Conference in Washington, D.C., September 1996, sponsored by the National Computer Security Association.

Douglas Pasternak, "Wonder Weapons," U.S. News and World Report, 7 July 1997, pp. 38-46

I. Chernishev, "Can Rulers Make `Zombies' and Control the World?" Orienteer, February 1997, pp. 58-62.

This is less than ideal for a game manufacture and a warning label is not enough.

[Armyless]

No more Fireworks on the 4th of July.
No more Rave clubs or Laser Light Shows.
Outlaw strobe-lights, because "a warning label is not enough"
Add an "Epilepsy Threat Level" to thunderstorm warnings.

[JoelR]

Big difference between ooops - we put in weapons grade Epilepsy causing scenes with audio, touch and light triggers. induced epilepsy does not necessarily relate to lights (just a possible cause)
see mahjong induced epilepsy - using higher brain functions for pattern recognition can trigger it if used for to long and to intensely.
also see:

Drawing induced epilepsy
graphogenic epilepsy
language induced epilepsy
camphor/apple/ induced epilepsy
startle induced epilepsy
posttramuatic epilepsy

Inducing epilepsy is not necessarily related purely to sight but also to sounds, smells, tastes, mental activity, touch etc...
If you have the right combination you can induce it easier
It can have a genetic trigger but it is not a requirement (> 10%)

most if not all activities in day to day life (yes including raves) can not hit the required threshold on all factors for a sustained period but video games can (as can movies)
and that is why testing for hazzards such as epilepsy induction is important.

[Armyless]

"Reports in newspapers and on television have heightened public awareness that playing video games can, in rare cases, trigger seizures, but there is no scientific evidence that video games can cause epilepsy. Playing video games is an extremely common pastime for many children, and they often play them for long periods of time. Because epilepsy is a common disorder, it is not surprising that some children will have their seizures while playing video games, just by coincidence. How often this happens, and to what extent the games trigger the seizures, if at all, is not known.

Stress, fatigue, or hyperventilation may trigger seizures during video games in some children who have epilepsy.

Some other children are photosensitive. For them, flashing lights, flickering images, or certain color sequences can trigger seizures or create patterns on the electroencephalogram (EEG) that are typical of epilepsy. These children may have seizures directly associated with playing video games. Photosensitivity occurs in only about 3% of people with epilepsy, however, so almost all children who have epilepsy should be able to play video games without ill effects. Restricting a child from playing video games simply because he or she has epilepsy is not justified.

Parents who are unsure whether a child who has epilepsy is photosensitive should check with the doctor. This can usually be determined from their EEG test. Photosensitive children may be able to play some games quite safely but have problems with others. Medication or blue polarized sunglasses can often prevent seizures caused by photosensitivity."

http://www.epilepsy.com/inf...

[JoelR]

as above

video games do not just hit photosensitives
it hits audio sensitives and with things like rumble packs can hit touch sensitive triggers as well

add them all together and you see the potential risk is much higher then just the photosensitive subset.

[Armyless]

Then you're actually arguing for the abolishment of every game, since anything (rumble, sound, etc.) can induce seizures, according to you.

@whoopi below- Your argument is akin to removing staircases from the world because some people can't walk. Never mind the fact that we can build elevators, you think we should abolish stairs.

[thewhoopimen]

Armyless just give it up. If Sony's priority is child safety, their priority is child safety. And again I mention to you, when did your mom every worry about you having sensory-induced epileptic tendencies? I would say 90% of parents don't... and a warning label on a game isn't going to stop potentially-harmed kids from playing it.

[Revvin]

A friend of mine who was in his late thirties and been a gamer since the days of the Spectrum suffered an epileptic fit whilst playing a PC space combat game. He was fit and healthy (ex soldier) and never showed any signs of epilepsy until that day so its a good thing Sony have delayed Wipeout to ensure its safe for everyone. Just because you've never had a fit or shown any symptoms doesn't mean you won't ever have a fit.

[Valvoline]

Anyone can cite anectdotal evidence.

I have a friend in his thirties who has played video games all his life too, and he's never experienced a seizure, therefore games do not cause seizures. See how silly that sounds?

[mindedone]

An instance can logically generalize to the existence of a phenomenon, as in the instance to which you are replying, but the negation of an instance cannot be generalized into the negation of a universal.

Assuming he is not lying about the entire instance, it is safe to assume that the PC triggered (not caused) the seizure. I say triggered because there were probably many factors that contributed to the seizure. Knowing this above fact I can infer that there are PC games that caused seizures. However, what you have said is logically unsound. You can only say that there are games that didn't cause seizures, not that they do not cause seizures in the future, nor the insane conclusion that they are NO seizure triggering videogames.

And further note, epilepsy is a chronic condition. A seizure is not an indicator of epilepsy. Seizures can happen to anyone. Epileptic seizures happen to epileptics. (This is not directed at you, but to the ones above using the term epilepsy in place of seizure.)

[Valvoline]

That's why I said it sounds silly. However, I was correctly illustrating the absurdity of citing anecdotal evidence in support of preconceived notions.

While the actual diagnosis of Epilepsy requires the seizures be unprovoked, people who are prone to seizures are, in fact, by definition Epileptic. "Although it is mistakenly assumed that photosensitivity is a common element to all forms of epilepsy, among both patients and the public, only between 2-3% OF PEOPLE WITH EPILEPSY are affected by flickering lights". Given the subdivided rarity of diagnosed Epileptic people (at around 1 in 150 to 200) with photosensitive tendencies (2% to 3% among them) the subsequent culmination of occurrence is around .015% of the population (or 1 in 7000 roughly).

You said, "A seizure is not an indicator of epilepsy. Seizures can happen to anyone. Epileptic seizures happen to epileptics."

That is not accurate. "Photosensitive Epilepsy is a form of epilepsy in which seizures are triggered by visual stimuli that form patterns in time or space, such as flashing lights, bold, regular patterns, or regular moving patterns." http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[Revvin]

I gave an example. I never said it would affect everyone what I did warn is that just because you've not had a fit and never shown any symptoms it doesn't guarantee you will never have a fit. In the UK around 1 in 20 will have one seizure in their lifetime, approximately 1 in 131 people will have epilepsy. My figures are from the British Epilepsy Association. In the case of my friend he was an ex soldier, still fit and healthy. He smoked but rarely drank and at the time of the fit was doing one thing - playing a space combat game. With the figures I quoted above its perfectly sensible for Sony to pull the release of Wipeout until it can be sure that the risk of bringing on any kind of seizure is reduced to a reasonable level.

[mindedone]

What he said was sound; what you said was not. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence of existence. It is all that is needed for proof of existence. It actually has a mathematical name, existential generalization.

I also fail to see how what you said negates my other comment. Photosensitive epilepsy is still epilepsy, and happens to epileptics. This comment was never meant for you in the first place, but for people using epilepsy in place of seizure.

[Alcohog]

So you boot the game up with a disclaimer, -whats the hold up here?

[Mr BlueScreen]

I'm Glad that Sony is watching out for things like this. If they didn't someone could have a very bad day.

Microsoft on the other hand probably don't do things like this. Maybe they should do stupid tests on the games to see if Xbox games make people stupid.

(JK)

[AKIronMaiden]

It Failed the Epilepsy test. Man, this game keeps getting better. I love flashy games, But having to fail an Epilepsy test, That's harsh.

[slave2Dcontroller]

WipeOut has always been a "killer" app. XD