Should we be ok with developers cutting features for the sake of a smoother image?
Gameplay is always first, then frame rate, then graphics, last should be resolution.
Actually frame-rate and gameplay go hand in hand.
I agree with MrSwankSinatra. You wont experience much gameplay if it runs like a slideshow. and I agree with the order KNWS put them in.You are both correct in my opinion.
The question in the article is really: Would you prefer a game that runs at 60 FPS that cuts out features or a game that runs at 30 FPS that has everything.
I have a hard time enjoying the gameplay if the framerate is sh1t,in which I thought they go hand in hand anyway??
A game could have the best gameplay ever, but if the frame-rate isn't stable/consistent it wont be enjoyable, I mean no one want to their games to play like a slide presentation.
Gameplay feel and response time is tied directly to frame rates in reality although 60fps is not essential for all types of games. For example turn based gameplay from an RPG or cinema movie type games don't require precision timing. That said Racing, Fighting or Action games running at 30fps are laughable by today's standards and devs who choose more effects and higher resolutions over frame rates are generally doing it wrong for those types of games and are focusing more on marketing and screen shots at the cost of worse response and game feel. Unfortunetly most gamers are casual amateurs and care more about the way a game looks over the way a game feels. This can be said for the majority of PS4 gamers, opposite can be said for the majority of Nintendo gamers and it is reflected in the performance of the games made by their respecting 1st party studios.
True, but it's not like 30fps would be terrible for game play. You can't have frame rate if the game play doesn't actually exist, so game play is more important. Everyone here is acting like anything below 60fps is unplayable.
Agreed, a smooth frame rate, be it 30 or 60, is pretty crucial to a better experience. Much moreso than how realistic the aesthetics are, or how many pixels are crammed into every facial wrinkle on a player model.XD
@rainslacker Goes both ways you can't have gameplay if you don't have a framerate. It's like I said Framerate and Gameplay go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.
It's understandable that the author has tried to frame this as a gameplay vs framerate debate, the Halo devs did say that they couldn't deliver splitscreen because they wanted to maintain 60fps after all. But framerate isn't the culprit here, in fact a higher framerate IMPROVES gameplay which is the reason the Halo devs don't want to give it up. This is actually a gameplay vs graphics discussion. The halo devs could easily deliver a 60fps splitscreen mode but they would have to compromise on graphics to do it. They said they weren't willing to compromise on 60fps to deliver a splitscreen mode but what they were actually saying is that they weren't willing to compromise on graphics in order deliver a 60fps splitscreen mode. Think about it, the author is saying that the dev could deliver better gameplay if he compromised on framerate, say 30fps. Then the logical extension of this argument is that the dev could deliver even better gameplay if only the framerate was 15fps but then just imagine how good the gameplay would be if only it was 1fps or even better, one frame per minute or heck the ultimate platinum experience, one frame per lifetime. Imagine, you load the game at birth then, just a moment before death, you get your one glorious frame. Oh, the rapture, the nirvana, the unrivaled bliss! Clearly, the premise doesn't hold any merit. Edit: Having said that, there is a upper limit to framerate aswell, a point where human perception is unable to identify individual frames however that frame rate is above 60fps. I've read studies where fighter pilots were able to identify single frames at rates as high as 240fps. I know that I can personally see flicker on a crt display up to about 80fps.
I have a really hard time believing that a game playing at 30, 40, or 50fps instead of 60fps impacts a person's gameplay experience so heavily that it actually takes away from the enjoyment of playing.
try playing a fighting game in 30 fps vs 60 fps. you must be out of your mind if you think that doesnt matter.
A fighting game at a solid 30fps as opposed to a unlocked 60fps would actually probably play better due to their dependence on frame data for input. The only difference between 30 and 60fps is how often input is polled. Otherwise, the frame data simply has to be changed. I've played plenty of fighting games over the years that were 30fps(sometimes not even locked) and never really had a problem. SFII was known for it's slowdown at times, and even emulated in some later releases.
Its sad that marketing groups have been able to latch on to random features like "GRAPHICS" and "FRAMES PER SECOND" and use them as buzzwords to sell games to people who don't know any better. I understand that 60fps looks better than 30fps, but the majority of people who see 30fps without a reference of 60fps are not saying "Ugh, this looks terrible, must be 30fps." When you compare them its more obvious, but is it really worth stripping features out of the game? I feel like its something thats nice to have but not at all necessary, you know? Like, I prefer to watch a video in 1080p, but if its only available in 720p, I'm still going to watch it and probably won't complain.
Well said. I prefer the better looking, better performing game. Doesn't matter to me whether it's 60fps or 30fps(unless we're talking different versions of the same game). Nowadays, everybody wants to make it sound like devs are choosing graphics over 60fps as if they wouldn't have been doing that all along, if they could. Both devs and gamers want beautiful games, and the increase in the power of hardware means games can become even more beautiful. A higher framerate is nice, but it's pretty much never necessary; on the other hand, who wants to play ugly games?
Woah, since when are 60 fps games ugly?! TLOU:Remastered, Tomb Raider HD, MGS V, Trine 2, etc. These are among the best looking games out there! Hell even Mario kart 8, Bayonetta 2, and Splatoon are good looking games on the weakest console this gen running at 60 fps, and benefitting heavily for it. 60 fps is borderline necessary to certain genres that require precise control and reaction reliability. Fighting games, racers, hack and slash games and platformers, specifically. I will concede that not every game needs 60 fps. Horror games can provide more detailed environments to enhance the mood at the cost of 60 fps, and games like Heavy Rain need maximum visual fidelity to immerse the player in a cinematic experience. There's other examples too. But, by and large, 60 frames helps games age better, makes them more competitive and enticing to many.
"A higher framerate is nice, but it's pretty much never necessary" Tell that to any developer that aims for 60FPS in any of their games, Hicken...
@Concertoine At 60 FPS you need to render twice as many frames in a second over 30, that is not free. That is extremely taxing on hardware. It would take more than just going from 1080p to 900p, you would probably need to go down to 720p which is just hideous. To go to 60 you need to sacrifice A LOT of graphical effects and fidelity. TLOU didn't have all that many effects compared to native PS4 games and you had to lower shadow quality to get 60. Some games I can see sacrificing graphics quality to get 60 like online shooters and fighting games. For immersive type games like Dying light or Bloodborne I prefer better graphics over 60 fps. That said I think devs should put in options like they do on PC. Allow gamers to tailor FPS resolution and effects to taste. I may want 1080p and 30 FPS with better graphics, others may not mind a graphics and res downgrade to get 60. Put an option in a menu called "advanced options" or something.
@LamerTamer Where did I say it was free...? Of course it takes a lot of effort. Just like making a graphically intensive, 30 fps game requires trade-offs and effort.
@Hicken That is some awesome defense to cover the tracks of why some games on a more powerful system may not achieve the precious 1080p/60fps everyone expected to have.
And people who know better care about it even more. 60FPS is a lot better than 30. Most of my games run well above 60 frames on my PC, I can feel it when games are 30 frames or lower. my most anticipated game Xenoblade X probably runs at 30 frames, One of its flaws. Who said anything about sacrificing features? Nintendo gets a lot of their games running at 60, not by stripping features, but by sacrificeing the less important, resolution.
Removing features in the name of progress is nothing new. Sucks, but people lap up PR more than they think critically on if the PR is actually justifiable.
Split-screen is more important than petty 60 fps.
I think more people will enjoy 60fps over split-screen. I know I will.
"I think more people will enjoy 60fps over split-screen. I know I will." ^^This. generally you will be playing your console by yourself most of the time. I wouldnt want to suffer downgraded visuals for a split screen mode, I hardly use. Give me co op inline, with the best visuals possible on the hardware
It's pretty simple, gameplay makes a game.
also, its simple, bad frame-rate brakes a game doesn't matter how good the gameplay is. Both gameplay and frame-rate go hand to hand.
30 fps is NOT bad!
I think we'll find out at E3 what they're really adding that would be technically not be feasible in split-screen. If the campaign is amazing and innovative it would be totally forgivable. I don't want to be positive or negative about this until E3. They would never remove split-screen co-op unless it was absolutely necessary for the benefit of the game. For all we know many features were cut down from past halo games because of the inclusion of split-screen! We just never heard about it in the news. Giant set-pieces, cinematic events in a sand-box environment with 60 fps, 4 player co-op, and split-screen on top is a whole lot of shit to work around. This is why past halo campaigns had certain limitations.
Why are we talking as if framerate and gameplay are 2 entirely separate things? Framerate is the biggest factor on how playable the game is. Low framerate=unplayable game. It's really that simple.
I have no idea. Frame rate can quite obviously and directly affect *gameplay* and this isn't debatable. Whether or not someone cares is subjective, but the user experience is a real thing. I don't understand why people continue to deny this.
Halo 5 devs at their own admission cut out split-screen in favor of keeping the game at 60 FPS. They made a pretty distinct choice on the matter. I guess the issue is really: Should games leave features behind to maintain 60 FPS
Biggest factor?? So devs can scrap all the features they add to make gameplay fun, and just set it to 60fps, problem solved? Wow, Who knew?
If that is what you read, then so be it. It is not at all what I meant.
Balance is key.
I hardly ever play split-screen so I don't really care if it's in the game or not, but what's so hard about dropping the framerate to 30 FPS to compensate? Hell, Mario Kart 8 on the Wii U could run two players at 60 FPS and 3+ at 30 FPS. Nintendo did it, so why can't 343i? It's not exactly a technological hurdle.
Because its running at a higher graphical engine...
Honestly, I think it depends on the game. I actually had this discussion a gamestop rep about a week ago. I brought up that I can barely run inquisition at a solid 20 fps on my laptop but that, for a game like inquisition, that doesn't really matter much. As long as I cab play the game without any game breaking slowdown, then I'm happy. It seems to me that action games like bayonetta and ninja Gaiden are framer ate really matters. But RPGs like dragon age don't need a great framerate, just a playable one.
I cant really right now name any features that are so heavy that you cant achieve 60FPS with more modest graphics... FPS is directly related to gameplay.
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