ESRAM Gets 15% Boost With Pix; Vulkan Unlikely To Replace PS4 GNM

Wardell saw a demo with 15% ESRAM boost thanks to Pix @GDC2015, and DX12 comes with a new eSRAM API. Also, the new Vulkan API likely won't replace PS4 GNM.

[ccgr]

Nice but not earth shattering

[kaiserfranz]

Well, 15% with Pix alone is a lot. If you add the new esram Ali and DX12, then it might be the thing that makes XB1 games reach FullHD, at long last.

[Bigpappy]

The lofty goal is NOT 1080p or any other resolution. The goal is for better overall graphics effects while also having a better frame rate all while using less power.

[Why o why]

Wouldn't the overall goal to improve on everything. Why is stating anything 1080 almost taboo. All improvements are welcomed and lauded when they' become reality so why is the desire for better shunned by factions. Just admit it. You want it, Smh

Well done to the tech heads making the improvements.

Oh, I forgot the classic, 'it you want better graphics, why don't you get a pc' ;)

[falviousuk]

Whats FullHD.

Is it any resolution that the Playstation can reach that the xbox can't.

Would 4K be FullHD or is this just another sony fanboy with their usual bull

[Wikkid666]

@falviousuk

1080 is full HD
4K is UHD

[fr0sty]

^good to see someone here knows what they're talking about.

"Full HD" is 1080p, nothing more, nothing less.

Ultra HD is 4K (the at-home 16:9 version of 4K), or the full 4k resolution being known as "Cinema 4K" among other names.

@shloobmm3, The thing is, PS4 is hitting the same fidelity, but at 1080p. If the system can display the developer's vision at any given resolution without compromising it, all the better.

[TFJWM]

4k and UHD is not the same...

http://www.extremetech.com/...

[vishmarx]

2 days back to back .OUCH

[Death]

@Falv,

It would be Super FullHD Champion Edition.

[christocolus]

@Kaiserfranz

Nice. I just want to see all these improvements and new features being used in the upcoming games (third party and exclusives)

[Eonjay]

"Well, 15% with Pix alone is a lot."

But what exactly does Brad mean by 15%. Just for clarity. Do we mean 15% increase in peak bandwidth, or something else. He refers to resolution (because developers want to put their render targets in the fast memory). Or is he saying that the resulting resolution was 15% better?

[UKmilitia]

what we have to remember is since launch of this new gen,according to xbox owners the 44% increase in resolution and othber increases isnt noticable and doesnt matter.

so whats the point with 15% becasue it wont be noticable.

[DLConspiracy]

@UKmilitia

It doesn't really matter. Others just brag about it so much while others dont care. Its a bragging tool in the console wars. I just want it to shut fanboys up for a bit. Although people would argue about which has more usb 3.0 slots, which is lighter, thinner or has the better controller...

There needs to be a healthy dose of hatred in console gaming apparently.... There wouldn't be corporate allegiance if we didn't. We can't have that now...

[sonarus]

MS screwed up with weaker ram so now they are trying to rectify the problem... hopefully they succeed but frankly i don't care one way or the other.

[BallsEye]

Talking like xbox one got no 1080p games. Please do your research.

[GameNameFame]

How many secret sauces did we have already?

Kinect power unlock, Hidden potential processor, audio process, hidden second gpu, 7th CPU unlock, power from OS unlock.

Yet, new games still are not full HD. Resolution havent increased at all.

[KirbysDump]

I am happy with my x1 graphics. The games are good. Not bothered at all about the technical side of things.

[IGiveHugs2NakedWomen]

Why would anyone think that Sony would replace GNM or GNMX?

[deSSy2724]

If the new OpenGL is more efficient, its logical but I dont think Sony would abandon its own APIs for numerous reasons.

[joeorc]

Read further:

Sony is in the very work group building Vulkan! That means why would they not incorporated Vulkin benefits into being able to be used on their own Machines? If they themselves are the ones help building the very Api

UNLESS THEIR INHOUSE API WOULD BE BETTER!
/wInk

[joeorc]

Exactly, Roll's eyes and the head line is Bait:

He thinks that Vulkan certainly won’t replace Sony’s GNM as that API is already low level, but it could become an alternative of sorts to GNMX (which is the high level PS4 API).

PS4 GNM is unlikely to be supplanted by Vulkan since it's very low level already.

— Brad Wardell (@draginol) March 4, 2015

On ps4 you bypass OpenGL to use GNM or gnmx. Vulkan could become an alternative to gnmx (me speculating).

So again that even by Brad stated it does not Exclude Vulkin to be used on the PS4, as a matter of fact Sony is in the work group developing Vulkan!
they also sit on the organization Board of directors that build the Api

[kaiserfranz]

How can it possibly be "bait" when it says exactly that? It says it won't replace GNM and that's what the developer said...

[joeorc]

@kaiserfranz  +  
How can it possibly be "bait" when it says exactly that? It says it won't

because why would it? Why put that in the head line? Both DirectX12, and Vulkan are (wrapper) layer Api's

He knows that! So why even put that there?
its simple, to bolster the perception of the Xbox one. Which is fine, but check out this lil question he was asked and his Answer.

Alecx Sanders @Drfu77
@draginol sure. Parallel processing in this stage- Xbox one is strongest console?
Brad Wardell @draginol
Folloa@Drfu77 depends if ps4 gets Vulkan.
10:15 AM - 4 Mar 2015

So now you see this posted and Brad said what he did, and you really think that is not trying to imply something?
when he knows d@mn well what he just went over just yesterday.

its implying, if Sony does not get Vulkan
Than
He is saying or implying that as

"Parallel processing in this stage- Xbox one is strongest?console"

and yet Sony is in the freaking work group of Vulkan, and would not use it , if it was better than their own?

Yeah when Sony is the one helping develop the d@mn Vulkan Api?

[Aurenar]

The gap between PS4 and XO is always smaller.

[Death]

The gap between the PS4 and Xbox One is what ever people want to make of it.

[SlavisH2]

lol @ people just wanting Dx12 to fail and rushing to downplay with passive fangirlism, n4g

[Alexious]

DirectX 12 will be a great achievement, though more for PC than Xbox One.

[agame914]

You do realize PS3 exclusives destroyed the Xbox 360's right?

[Death]

DirectX 12 and Windows 10 seem to be a great way for Microsoft to build synergy among their various supported platforms and devices. It will benefit people that own multiple Microsoft products.

[hasamalaha]

lol @ people thinking software can overcome a large hardware gap

[traumadisaster]

You do realize 360 software overcame a ps3 hardware gap???

[DarkZane]

Because the PS3 was hard to develop for and devs were actually lazy.

If you actually look at the exclusives, the PS3 was superior in every way.

Blame laziness, otherwise even multiplats would have looked better on PS3.

[thrust]

It's not a large gap tho!

[hasamalaha]

As Dark pointed out. Software can help overcome a bad developer. PS3 still had the best looking games by great developers, there's no arguing that.

[Death]

Can hardware overcome a software gap? Both companies seem to excel at one over the other. Sony has better hardware and Microsoft has better OS/features. Games are subjective to peoples preferences. I'm not sure if you can go wrong with owning either console.

[Mikeyy]

Nobody wants DX12 to fail...

it's going to do amazing things for pc.

All the negativity is because certain people have hijacked the DX12 hype and warped it into some giant lie and are claiming it will turn the xb1 Into a turbo charged PC pumping out 4k.

[Lennoxb63]

A lot of people in these articles are pretty delusional. Both the Sony and the Xbox fans. The Sony fans who think the PS4 is 50% more powerful are just as delusional as the Xbox fans who think DX12 will give the X1 a 200% boost.

[LamerTamer]

@Lennoxb63

If you just look at the specs though it does look like PS4 has 50% more power in the GPU at least. That is also coincidently about the difference between 900p and 1080p. That is not delusional. DX12 is just a software layer between coders and the hardware. This layer will make things a bit easier to code and will improve things but it can only do so much with the hardware which is fixed. Since the current X1 API pretty much goes to the metal anyway DX12 won't be a massive boost. Anything will help though.

[jhoward585]

Wait a minute. I thought the PIX tool was used for investigating bugs, bottlenecks, etc.

[Eonjay]

You are right. The tweets that the article references even says so, but its meant to be misleading it seems.

Brad: You can use a tool called Pix to further optimize your Esram usage.

Article: Pix boosts ESRam 15%.

[Fro_xoxo]

It seems that not everyone here is happy with improvements being made to XO.

Esram is part of the reason why XO isn't doing 'full HD' on some games.

No one is saying XO hardware will change. Don't worry, you don't have to feel so insecure. It is good enough as it is.

What will improve is optimization.. Methods of which to get more out of the same hardware.

That is the purpose of the new tool for optimizing Es-ram, Pix.
"Demo I saw resulted in ~15% boost."

[GortJester]

Yay Intelligence. Good post sir.

[bleedsoe9mm]

i've heard the 1080p problem as just a time/money problem its just takes too much , so having eSRAM control built into the API has got to help .

[Drekken]

The same people that criticized the cell chip embrace the ESRAM.

[Concertoine]

And vice versa?

[christocolus]

@The Fro

well said bro.

[mjk45]

The thing is it's not a new tool pix has been around since the 360.
About optimization yes,you just have to look back over the history of consoles with their fixed specs to see how games improve over time, but those improvements are due to a host of things not just optimization like new or improved API's ,software tools,and we must not forget improved game engines.
What I don't get ( and this isn't aimed at you) just a general rant, is peoples belief that seems to suggest that it will be specific to one console sure there will be differences based on the architecture but in this day and age even if one party developed something that gave them the edge it wouldn't be long before the other had a similar solution since both company's have great software teams and access to outside expert s as well.

[odderz]

All of these minor adjustments and changes makes me wonder how the XO and PS4 will compare near the end of their lifespans? Will there still be an obvious (although negligible) gap in power, or will the XO be able to make up for it with unique architecture quirks, a la PS3's cell?

[GortJester]

Although there will always be a gap (kind of like having a brother who is 1 year older than you, you will never be able to catch up to him in age) but if the Xbox One can keep up with the PS4 until the end of the cycle, I think everyone in general will be happy.

[bleedsoe9mm]

i wonder if you look at both brothers when they are adults you can tell which is a year older

[snoopgg]

or does Sony have some secret ways of improving ps4 graphics, so they remain better then xone? Ask yourself that quesestion?

[ThanatosDMC]

Betting on the PS4. There hasnt been a single game to look as good as GoW3, Uncharted 3, Last of Us, and Beyond 2 Souls on the 360. Now with the current gen consoles, nothing on the Xbone has come close to look as good as Infamous SS, Killzone SF, The Order, and Bloodborne.

[jhoward585]

15% isn't bad considering how Small ESRAM is.

I guess tiled resource rendering wasn't as effective as MS have thought.

It is what it is. A bigger esram(64mg) would've made a huge difference.

[yarbie1000]

'i guess tiled resource rendering wasn't as effective as MS have thought'

I guess its clear you haven't watched any GDC presentations. smh http://channel9.msdn.com/Ev...

[jhoward585]

Thanks for the link.

That why I posted another commit below because some things just wasn't making any sense to me.

Thanks again.

[akaFullMetal]

I wish it had 64 mb of esram but the apu in the xbox that is intergrated with the esram is already huge, if they added another 32mb of esram the apu would of been way too big to work.

[jhoward585]

All I have to say is that something doesn't add up.

Lets do the math here.

The x1 has 4 DMA moves engines that can compress texture data while doing read and write operation, and is sent to either(or both) the Esram/8gig ram. Plus, tiled resource.

PIX tool is used to optimized the ESRAM in what way I asked? Does it do any compression? especially during its investing process.

Too many unanswered questions...

[kaiserfranz]

Try asking Brad on Twitter, he usually answers.

[jhoward585]

In the inner circle podcast he wasn't too informative about the x1 then so why would he say anything about it now.

He might still be under the NDA. if so, I won't get any info out of him.

[rainslacker]

Pix itself isn't an optimization tool or anything used on a game's build. It is an analytic tool used to analyze running code that looks at what the code is doing in hardware to find out where bottlenecks exist and how well the code performs certain operations.

Using this information, the developer can then go and and make changes to code(optimization) to make it run better.

What wardell is saying is that when ESRAM is being used, the performance rating gets a 15% boost as shown by PIX. He doesn't make it clear what exactly that 15% pertains to however, so it could be graphics, data throughput, or processing cycles per instruction...my first guess would be graphics however(given that PIX analyzes a D3D frame), but won't speculate on what part of the graphics is affected.

[getrektedmate]

Thats some good news

[Lenrulesdaworld]

thxs for the quick plug, we'll have both brad and brian langley from the dx12 team back. whether i can get them to talk xbox one dx12 which seems is still under nda until windows10 release on it, i'm not sure but i'll do my best if allowed. don't want to burn any bridges at this point, we've come to far but i'll push for answers.

[akaFullMetal]

I wonder how the esram is being optimized by the PIX tool?

[hasamalaha]

The PIX thing is misleading as well. There isn't some flat out 15% increase. All PIX does is show you different results when you use the eSRAM in different ways.

So, if you don't know how to use eSRAM.... PIX may show you how to it differently and you could get a boost.

However, if you are already a good developer and know how to make proper use of eSRAM... it isn't going to boost anything by 15%.

[paulomoreira]

https://twitter.com/dragino...

[kurruptor]

That doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove me wrong.

If that demo was poorly optimized because the dev wasn't familiar with eSRAM, PIX helped show them how to better utilize it... yielding a 15% performance gain.

But, if the eSRAM was utilized properly in the first place... PIX wouldn't have done anything for it.

Straight from his blog: http://www.littletinyfrogs....

"First, they're redoing the APIs to deal with eSRAM based on developer feedback. Second, they have a wonderful tool called "Pix" that now has a feature (or will very soon) that lets developers try out different strategies in using eSRAM and see how it performs without having to rebuild the project (i.e. they can simulate it in the tool). This too is huge."

The developer still has to do all the work. They still have to figure out the best coding on their own. PIX isn't just giving some 15% boost.

[Alexious]

Your assumption is ridiculous. Software evolves over time; it could very well be that the new version of PIX enables more accurate evaluation and in a demo at GDC 2015, Microsoft demonstrated a 15% boost in eSRAM performance with this.

Moreover, Dying Light developer Techland already stated that PIX helped them improve performance and tweak eSRAM usage, though they didn't quantify in percentage. http://gamingbolt.com/xbox-...

[kurruptor]

Please read your own article for an understanding of what the PIX tool actually does, which backs up what I said and what Brad Wardell said himself.

All PIX does is analyze and debug your code. It helps point out your flaws so that you can fix them or find an alternate way. It doesn't just give you a boost. It is a tool to make a dev's life easier. It doesn't do anything you couldn't have done before with hard work.

[Alexious]

@kurruptor: Now you're just being a smartass. I fully know that PIX is an analyzer and doesn't directly boost performance, but it doesn't change the pure fact that two respected developers like Stardock's Wardell and Techland's Binkowski explictly said that PIX helps boost performance.

The fact that it doesn't do it directly is irrelevant. It's like the larger debate of hardware vs software: with DX12 you're not directly augmenting the power of your configuration, but you're accessing more of it, so you're still getting a boost from before.

This is similar, with developers saying that the new PIX helped them achieve better results with eSRAM.

[kurruptor]

I'm not being a smartass. People read this 15% boost thing and they think that X1 is now 15% more powerful than it was before.

That simply is not true in anyway. It help show devs whether Coding Method A is better than Coding Method B, but that potential still has a limit and that limit has not changed.

I'm not saying it isn't helpful, but it isn't a boost.

[paulomoreira]

not trying to prove u wrong only that the title is not misleading only that u can take the interpretation u want so ur comment can be misleading to

so if the developers were having problems using the esRAM and get a help with the PIX tool to x% thats a boost from the PIX so how misleading is that

[kaiserfranz]

Yeah I really don't know what he's talking about. Seems pretty clear to me!

[Sevir]

1.84 TFlops >1.3 TFLOPs.... That is the gap. That is the hardware disparity between the two machines performance... DirectX 12, New APIs, Pix, Tiled Rendering, 10% Kinect boosts, extra cpu core, and Esram performance boosts STILL equates to 1.3 TFLOPs of performance...

all these software enhancements and optimizations will do is make it easier to code to the metal on xbo, and use less resources to make games look better within the parameters of its Hardware mandated performance cap.

The only way 1.3 TFLOPs of performance can get any higher is if the hardware engineers OVERCLOCK the APU/GPU. Which they did already... It was originally 1.21 TROOPs and got a boost to 1.32 TFLOPs two months before they launched the XBO.

This is all they'll get get, as overclocking anymore will cause the internal motherboards to over heat, and we know what that'll mean now don't we.

All these enhancements, will simply allow for better graphics, effects and frame rate optimizations... And that should be exciting for the Xbox brand since most of the multiplatform games run markedly worse than the PS4.

So stop thinking this will suddenly put the Xbox One on par with the PS4. The hardware engineers defined it's limits, all this software is doing is allowing devs to use that 1.32 TFLOPS of performance better.

[green]

"So stop thinking this will suddenly put the Xbox One on par with the PS4"

I don't see anyone saying that hear.

[Spotie]

Explicitly, no. But the implications are there.

[rainslacker]

@Spotie

Notice a little more conservative talk in this thread today after yesterday's little DX12 20% "I told you so" talk from quite a few people and subsequent update.

Otherwise, I do agree with green, no one in this thread is really making this out to be a huge "secret sauce" thing. Even the implications seem rather reserved.

Boosts are good though, but I do think the title is click bait(not really misleading), and the PS4 part was completely unnecessary given what the two API's do, and the fact that MS always relied on DX, whereas Sony's API's tend to just evolve bit by bit into it's next iteration with no big to-do....particularly on the consumer level. I mean we get an interview from ICE team or SSM engine development team maybe once every 2-4 years about what they're working on in regards to the PS API's? How many people here could even name the PS4's API and even know that Vulkan(or OpenGL) itself isn't needed in the way that DX is on Xbox?

Personally, while I love me some DX12 news, I'm getting tired of Wardell being the only one who constantly is hyping it up so much. Other devs exist and use DX12...heck I'm using it...maybe get some other opinions than this guy who seems more like a MS PR rep than the CEO of a third party company. Variety is great. Would love to hear from Epic or Unity on DX12.

[GenuineGamer]

@sevir: Ugh did MS ever actually say it was a 1.3tf gpu? Not everything about xbo is currently known hence the NDA's in effect. Not to mention processes that will get offloaded to the cloud in future games. xbo is alot more capable than people like you realize or give it credit for.

Judging these consoles power is not as simple as 1.3tf vs 1.8tf = said winner

[Sevir]

They've been ambiguous to avoid the comparison s since Sony put out its numbers. however the folk at both tech radar and Digital Foundry was able to solve that ambiguity through tear downs of the hardware and bench mark tests, and MS and their engineers when interviewed never denied the assertion to their findings.

You are absolutely right that it isn't as cut and dry as winning, but arguing the quantifiable performance disparities between the two is silly. There are doesnts of metrics that point to which is strong and then of course the most important metric is the games, the cross platform ones that show where each machine is showing what it can do. Im not trying to download play any of these advancements for xbo, as I'm really excited about how developers will maximize that on the xbo and apply what they've learned on the PS4 using that ddesign philosophy with tweaks.

[gamerfan128]

1.84 TF > 1.31 TF, no matter how much insane nonsense fanboys come up with.

[vlashyr]

Yes! Finally. Just in time for the next Gears of War

[hello12]

I have captured two screenshots from a developers talk on dx12 it was a demo running in real time he was using an i74470 CPU you might be able to make out in the screenshot its a retail version CPU.

This is the dx11 demo. barely hitting 30fps
http://my.jetscreenshot.com...

According to Microsoft rep this is the same demo with the 20 per cent GPU utilisation performance and dx12

90 FPS dx12 demo

http://my.jetscreenshot.com...

Over three times the performance almost over dx11 its staggering what the dx12 API can do

Its got to little with the hardware its the API that will be changing everything.

[dreadz74]

How are people giving u disagrees when this is true?Here is the video for those who want to know what dx12 does and see the demonstrations for themselves. https://channel9.msdn.com/E...

[ziggurcat]

Because it's PC, not xbone, and he's presenting his screenshots as though they're a demonstration on console.

[ThanatosDMC]

People just automatically press disagree when they see "KNWS" that's all.

[gamerfan128]

X1 uses DX 11.x that already has some low level DX 12 features. It's not goingo to have nearly as much effect as it will on PCs, which is what all the demos are on.

You're gullible and ignorant believing MS snake oil and misterxmedia garbage.

[kingPoS]

Better to have more options in api instructions than less. It's good that both platforms tools are improving. Between Dx12 Vulkan and who knows what else, the trend for high level api's with low access has become obvious.

Gateway MT6706 2008

[AutoCad]

People so obsessed with resolution numbers..
Hasnt Ryse or The Order taught you guys anything lol?

I want my games to look visually stunning and running butter smooth..If its 900p 800p or 1080p i dont care..

I dont understand why so many people here are actually mad or hating on improvements made to hardware,wo cares if its 1% or 15% ..damn go back to enjoying a game.

[Mostafeto]

yes I agree totally Games shouldn't be judged by their resolution number but based on their core gameplay and this improvement is still good to see though

[Nightcyberspud]

What's frustrating is that the one is able to do 1080p @ 60frames, and now fanboys and PC elitists are complaining that it(and PS4) can't do 4K. Last I checked resolution and frames in no way makes a game better. Its content that should be the deciding factor.

[its_JEFF]

Reading thru all the 20% debacle stuff and now this 15% Boost to ESRAM, I npriced one thing.... They really like to use the word "Boost" and I think that's the main problem. If they just simply said instead that they have main the ESRAM 15% more efficient it wouldn't be a big deal. I feel like Boost indicates it's being added on rather than becoming more efficient. I don't know if that makes sense, but boost is a bit of a loaded word.

[ziggurcat]

You're absolutely right - boost implies adding extra power, but all this is in an improvement in the efficiency, not an increase in power.

[GNCFLYER]

Nothing new and it happens to consoles through their lifespan. Tools mature, engines are made, tweaked, and games on both consoles will improve over time.

When uncharted came out it was beautiful, God of War ascension blows it away.

[dreadz74]

To the people saying DX12 improvement is for pc only you are wrong.Yes the pc will see the biggest increase but XB1 will have improvements too.yes XB1 is closer to the metal than pc but DX12 brings so many new tools also new feature levels that XB1 does not currently have.Yes XB1 can do some of the things that DX12 does right now but not many of them and the features they can get now are nowhere near efficient as DX12.Tiled resources tier 2 and 3 cant be done now or bundles that DX12 enables to say a few.Do you know that DX12 has bundles that can do multiple draw calls with one command which lowers cpu overhead to 9%..Stop the nonsense that DX12 will do nothing for XB1 if this was the case why waste time making a new API.

If sony was going to use Vulcan same people would be yelling that ps4 just gets better but would the same argument of PS4 close to the metal apply smh..better tools better efficiency and new features are going to yield better results

[cruzngta]

My younger brother is throwing a party right now. He loves this 'Secret Sauce' shit. I will propably get a phone call from him later today about this. He hangs on EVERY bit of info that is related to XB1 Secret Sauce. Its hilarious but yet he still has a PS4 and will admit it is a beast as well.

[corroios]

People dont understand. PS4 1.84 teraflops/Xbox One 1.32 teraflops. Nothing change...

Dx12 its a tool nothing more, because the Xbox is, besides weaker then the PS4, harder to work and will help making easier to work. Nothing more.

It all PR crap from Microsoft. Next time build a console with a GOOD GPU, better setup for the ram, easier to work with and a good CPU.

This generation the choice is already set and the gap is getting bigger as we talk.

[Izzy408]

You tell yourself whatever you have to just so you'll feel better about your purchase. Sure, on paper the PS4 is better, but we have yet to see that extra power make any real difference when it comes to graphics.

[Silly gameAr]

I don't get into this graphics talk crap, but it seems like it's you guys that need to tell yourself whatever you have to to feel beter about your purshase with this constant barrage of articles. And, as for what the PS4 is capable of, maybe you just need to open your eyes?

[rainslacker]

perhaps you missed The Order? The game that gives a lot of PC games a run for their money. The game that's being hailed as the best looking console game to date...even in the reviews that think it's one of the worst games ever made.

I dunno what kind of standards you have when it comes to graphics, but PS4 has shown several games now that show it can outperform the X1. There's KZ:SF on release day, The Order, I:SS, and DriveClub. To date, I think Ryse is the only game which can give the PS4 a challenge when it comes to graphics, but only in certain areas, and it tends to break down when looking at things as a whole when compared to the graphics quality on the PS4....but in fairness it was originally a 360 game.

[GenuineGamer]

@corroios: People like you spreading this trash is one of the reasons ps4 is selling so well.

xbo is a great piece of hardware and very widely misunderstood as being 'weak' when it really isn't.

I don't think MS ever actually came out and said how many tf the console is capable of.

There are things about the xbo gpu that are still under NDA and if i remember correctly the 1.3tf estimation from other sites was simply that. An estimation of currently known information.

Regardless judging these consoles power is not as simple as 1.3tf vs 1.8tf = said winner.

There are many more factors at play here. And from what i have read and seen many times is incorrect usage of esream and premature system tools for the console causing the sub 1080p resolution on some xbo games.

The only way is up for xbo especially with cloud computing slowly trickling into the mix.

[NatFanBoyRestricted]

Agree with you Gamer. The problems with making games for the x1 have been with devs and the Xbox one hardware. Games that took the time to make did run good once they understood the hardware. These updates help with making these games easier for the x1 hardware. But PS guys don't like to think that it is possible to improve because of hardware. It's like people forget the difference from gta4 and gta5. Every SDK update has helped the x1. There's game engines that were built on dx11. Obviously dx12 will enhance what that hardware can do, even if it's gpu isn't as strong as its competitor. If you think there nothing left to improve for the Xbox one, at least the PC will be seeing the biggest improvements. The mighty Playstation isn't some kind of infamous hardware compared to a handful of pc setups.

[rainslacker]

Maybe MS should show off some of that power if people are spreading misinformation. I mean, according to you, it would be entirely within MS power to quiet the nay-sayers and make people see that it is on par or more capable than the PS4.

Or is this part of MS plan to release this megaton on the world to one up Sony at the next E3...or the one in 2016 perhaps. Seems like a sound business move to allow your biggest competitor to get an almost 2:1 worldwide lead on you.

Look...I think the X1 is a fine game machine. I have nothing against the hardware or anything. My problems with it reside entirely on MS corporate policies and history in the gaming space. That being said, people make their decisions based on what they see. People are seeing that the PS4 is outperforming the X1 since launch day, and because of that, it doesn't really matter what people say in the forums.

MS is at the point where they have a lot of PR speak going around about how great the X1 WILL BE, sometime in the indeterminate future, whereas Sony, and it's 3rd party partners, just keep releasing amazing looking, highly desirable games(which sometimes fail to live up to the hype admittedly).

I dunno about you, but I don't think the forum goers are MS problem. MS problem is that they want people to believe that the X1 will be better one day, instead of just proving that it can be great.

Games are what sell the systems...not OS updates or features, not vague talk about holiday lineups, not technical or PR talk about API updates which the layman doesn't understand except that bigger number is generally better, and not talks about how cloud computing will make games better. Games. It's as simple as that. And to date, PS4 has had the better running multi-plats, and the better looking games, hence, people believe it to be better regardless of people like corrios spreading "misinformation".

When you pass the first year of a consoles release, it's generally put up or shut up to when it comes to a console. People don't want to know what is coming, they want to know what is there now, and what it's done to date to decide if the console is worth buying yet...or they just buy it when some game comes out that they just have to play.

[NatFanBoyRestricted]

Rainslacker, to be honest ya the ps4 has had a good start is first year, so that doesn't mean that the x1 failed. Im leaning more towards that dx12 will benefit more the pc than x1,but I wouldn't call it pr talk since dx12 affects allot more then console. Look at the first year of 360 and ps3, i wouldn't say ps3 failed. Something this big doesn't stay behind the scenes and just gets released, it's news intended for the industry,not specifically for gamers, for them use to judge another console or their own, and call it pr talk.

[rainslacker]

I don't think MS has failed either. They're doing pretty well despite a lull there for a while. A strong start and a good holiday have been good for MS. Like I said, I have nothing against the hardware, just MS, and some of those reasons go back way before the XBox brand was a twinkle in their eye. But I digress.

I do think DX12 will have some effect on the Xbox, not to the degree that some are stating, but it won't be some flash in the pan either.

My statement was for Genuine who want to make it out like there is a smear campaign against MS. While I can't argue that during the initial reveal and subsequent release there was a lot of that going around, I think the console has been out long enough for MS to at least show the potential of the system without making excuses for why something is the way it is, and they are certainly past the point of just promising good things to come when the games themselves haven't performed as well as they have on the PS4.

Sony is showing games, and the potential of the system. MS is doing PR to try and get people to see the potential of the system, but with no tangible product for their potential customer to purchase. It's not even showings of them...there really is just nothing right now that shows that the X1 is anywhere near capable of everything that MS is claiming, and nothing so far to show that the games can compare to Sony's first year-ish offerings.

If Sony is setting the bar so early in the console cycle, and it's going to take devs a year or two to get used to the X1 hardware, then what's going to happen once devs get used to the PS4 hardware? What it comes down to is that the X1 is going to always be behind the PS4 if that is the reasoning we're going to use.

Take the Order for example. Sure the game was recieved terribly critically, but when you look at the graphics, you can see quite clearly what the PS4 is capable of. Same was true with KZ:SF on release. I:SS as well. Average to above average games...but the potential is shown.

What exactly has MS given their customers, current or potential, that shows that their system is anything more than a slight graphics bump over last gen?

That's the point I was trying to make. We aren't seeing excuses and PR statements about how amazing things are going to be sometime later...with no actual date...from Sony. They're giving their customers the experience now, and that goes a long way to winning over the customer.

MS may turn that around once they finally implement all the stuff they talk about. But until that time, it doesn't matter if people are spreading misinformation, because the results currently speak for themselves.

[claudionmc]

I own a PS4 but come on guys, why is this a dislike reason? I think that this is better for both platforms, since Sony guys will be forced to push PS4 graphics even more.

[Fantasticzig]

So if the 20% GPU boost and 50% CPU boost from DX12 affects X1 as well as PC, that plus a 15% boost to ESRAM seems like a big deal. It would be crazy if X1, with weaker/cheaper hardware, was able to outperform the better hardware of PS4 due to software optimization.

[MRMagoo123]

There is no boost to any of those things for the xbone. This article isn't even about a boost it's about a tool that tells devs how to get better optimization from the ram, a tool they have been using since the 360 was around. The 50 percent boost was about pc not xbone and the 20 percent boost was about 1 specific game fable legends running on pc.

[GenuineGamer]

It's crazy how many people have misunderstood that story. XBO will definitely see improvements as it evolves over time but in this case they weren't referring to anything hardware specific, just a boost in efficiency for that particular game code going from dx11 to dx12. In theory the game could be running on any hardware and the switch from dx11 to dx12 would net up to that percentage of performance gain. Its not a boost in actual system power or a blanket number for every game running dx12. Just an example for what happened with fable.

[jonnybeans]

x-box will always be second best.

[NatFanBoyRestricted]

Obviously cause a well built pc could walk on any console. O wait isn't Elite Dangerous coming to X1 from pc just the way it is on pc. Not some chopped up version like Planetside2

[Yetter]

lets be nice to Planetside2. After all it is coming to XB1

[TheGreyest]

Why does all this Xbox One news keep having to be retracted? Would people just hold on for two seconds to clarify before screaming toward the hills?

[mozzie]

You people keep debating whether DX12 will improve the Xbox One's power but even if it doesn't, what you fail to realize is that DX12 is a killer move by Microsoft. It's genious. Win7 to Win10 is a free upgrade, DX12 obviously provides massive power gains on PC side and will only work on Win10. PC gamers are suckers for great graphics, ergo they'll update to Win10. New games will be produced for PC/DX12 first and then ported to XBOX ONE with minimal effort and PS4 get's the cheap port. Business wise a genious move by Microsoft.

[joeorc]

"PS4 get's the cheap port."

@mozzie

while what you stated could be correct, if Windows was the "only" standard that has the largest consumer pool for Users over a rival. Thats just not the case anymore, 10 years ago yeah you could have made the case for that .

in the last 10 years, i would say Microsoft has less Toll gate position than they did have for the OS driver, with the ability to dictate the market which OS is the standard OS that is used above all others. the fact of the matter while Windows OS and now Eco system is very well entrenched, it is no longer the largest market share holding OS any more.

Windows OS is no longer the Island for lead priority for games being the only OS on a PC that matter. Linux, and Mac thanks to Steam is now also just as viable with Vulkan that will support not just Linux, and Mac but also Android and iOS. Windows Eco system is not alone in having a Large size install base to Make games and Applications for.

DirectX 12 and windows OS is a great combo to combine with windows Phone and Surface, and Xbox.

But on the same token So is
Vulkan and Linux and Mac OS , iOS and Android OS is also a powerful combo in itself.

And Valve with steam and its Steam OS supports Both DirectX12, and Vulkan. And since both Nintendo and Sony's Game platforms do not use DirectX 12. The number of platforms that do not need windows OS powering the platform in order to get the new recent games released by large and small publishers and developers alike.

Non Windows Powered devices are just as Viable to be the lead platform over than just Windows OS only being the lead platform.

Windows OS is no longer the Only Standard that is the majority of the consumers use today for applications and gaming..Now Non Windows OS devices are just as large in number and the Api is not just only DirectX powering those devices. Many are powered by OpenGL, now they will be powered also by Vulkan

[mozzie]

Of course Windows is not the only OS amongst the market, I know that. I was talking about graphically intense AAA games which are usually played on PC, PS4 and Xbox One.

I did not know that Steam OS supports DX12, I was under the impression that it will only work with Windows 10.

And btw., wasn't Apple developing it's own API "Metal" for iOS?

I once read that PC was the lead platform for Far Cry 4, I thought that maybe this could be a trend in the future.

I also stated that Windows 10 will be a free upgrade which leads me to believe that many PC gamers will update to Windows 10 once it's available. There will be future GPU cards from AMD and NVidia which will support Direct X 12 specifically.

While Microsoft failed to acknowlege that the PC market is moving in a mobile direction with Android and iOS it still has a major share of the desktop market I believe.

Let's see where things go from here, should be interesting..

[Stapleface]

Depends on what you count as viable. If your talking game library then windows still crushes Linux just look at the available libraries on steam. Performance absolutely. But until Linux starts getting the support Windows does from developers, it will be secondary to windows when it comes to gaming.