Starting a dialogue around the ethics of covering the gaming industry is a worthwhile discussion but not in the context of Gamergate, a movement hiding its obvious misogynistic undertones behind a veil of campaigning for journalistic integrity.
I wish GamerGate would just go away.
You want a group which is trying to stand up for all Gamers to go away Gee...thanks for letting these corrupt journalist know it's fine to screw us over Like everyone else against GG for silly reasons, there will be a day in the future when a journalist will have some shady going ons with a game you love, whether it's criticizing it for ridiculous reasons or making a small plot point in the game into a huge bloody thing to make it look bad just so they can exploit it for more hits....only then AND ONLY THEN will you understand why this is happening. I know someone who didn't care for GG and thought it was pointless, then when they saw journalists talk about Bayonetta 2 and how it "sexualizes" women, making a big deal over nothing, his views quickly changed.
Foxtrot you are speaking to the person who thinks the term "Gamer" is bad and has written so many white night articles its almost predictable when they will come out. @pat_11_5 I had the same line of thought after seeing you write another anti gamer article. I wish Patrick would just go away.
I wish agenda pushing clueless "journalists" (journalists should have had 16 more quotation marks around it) like Pat would go away. I especially love the Joss "The Hack" Whedon's embedded tweet. We should listen to his, Seth Rogen and Patton Oswalt's bullshit about GamerGate because they're celebrities, right? Because I love it when unrelated, irrelevant celebrities comment about shit they have no idea about, just to appear "open minded" and "progressive" in public eye. Oh and also; Story Quality: WTF Like This Website: NO
@pat_11_5 wait! so so you wrote the article, submitted it AND made the first comment?
@Blacktric Don't bother with "Story Quality" or the "Like This Website" voting. it doesn't do anything. It was said by mods that its only there for show and that the community has no say in which what websites get banned from N4G. Only websites they have the power to ban sites and the only criteria for banning sites is plagiarism. I'll end on this quote. “If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it.” - Mark Twain
Why did you submit this article if you want it to go away....Hmmmm...are you part of an agenda maybe?
lmfao - so apparently he's part of an agenda because he promoted an article he wrote, on a free website, and then clarified his opinion in a post? So people who write stories shouldn't promote or comment on them after they're published? That's...reaching.
Is this a satirical article of is the author just mentally handicapped? Or maybe they have a very clear agenda and that's influencing their ability to discern and critically analyse facts. https://www.youtube.com/wat... I suggest the author looks at Sargon's videos and educates them self.
The author has the first comment, and probably submitted the article, so you should ask him. Nothing but a bunch of shameful self promoting click bait.
I wish you would go away. But we all can't have what we want. Can we?
It'll go away when articles, such as the one you wrote and submitted here, stop misrepresenting what it's about and start trying to get some actual ethics in their policies. Maybe instead of just hiding your head in the sand, hoping it goes away, you can tackle the actual issue that gamer gate is trying to get across. Maybe you can use some critical thinking skills of your own, instead of parroting what some fringe group of feminist want you to propagate as the truth. Do you feel good feeding their reputation for their gain? Because that's exactly what all these anti-gamer gate articles are doing. Promoting those that would change gaming to suit their own agenda, when they care nothing about it whatsoever. Way to go there pat. I know it's crazy, but you, as a "journalist" have as much power to make it go away as us pesky gamergaters.
Gaming journalists are the worst....
Gaming bloggers you mean.
Yeah people need to stop calling those journalists . Even when they make 90% of the work force , they still aint journalists and never were
Hey, lets stop GamerGate because it is hurting the Corrupt... NOPE
'But tell that to the 10-year-old who just picked up a copy of Shadow of Mordor because his favourite YouTuber said it was awesome, even though they actually hated the game.' How does a 10 year old buy an 18+ rated game?
I know, right! They let basically anyone into R rated movies around where I live, too. Even if they're by themselves.
Answer to that has always been simple; GamerGate is about "journalistic integrity". It's not about what a bunch of YouTube vloggers/let's players push to their dumb, "LEL BROFIST GUIZ" spouting moronic audience. Is it unethical that they're doing such a thing? Yes. Is it related to GamerGate? No. But of course, much like "GamerGate hates wymyn and is muhsoggykneestic!" crap, they're also trying to push this onto us to make us look bad...
did you never play a mature game when you were a kid? simply ask your parents for it
Never played Custer's Revenge, and I don't recall many Adult games on the Sinclair ZX81 (my brother's home computer).
Yeah, no one expects bad reviews, or good ones to go away. A reviewer should review as they always have(hopefully with a bit more impartiality...but I digress). The point of gamergate though, and how it would relate to reviews, is to make sure the review is actually portrayed in an ethical and manner, and made with integrity, not pay-offs.
What the hell is with all these "Stop GamerGate" articles....good god. I mean all at roughly the same time aswell. I see people against it just because they are sick of hearing about it, they don't have a side but they just don't want to see it anymore. I mean that kind of thinking is why journalist walk all over us. Gamers are doing this for other gamers benefits aswell and yet they are making this into GamerGate hating on women, name calling SJW and that. The only reason it looks like that is because SJW and people like Anita distract GG from doing it's main job.....fighting corrupt gaming journalists.
The articles are only popping up again because Anita got death threats claiming its GG people, yet no evidence has been shown pointing to GG. So many people who support GG don't support harassing in any way, yet the anti-GamerGate people think one person represent the whole of GG. Than what I like people like this author doesn't do research and doesn't notice how people of pro GG have been harass just as bad like Totalbiscuit or Boogey even some getting doxx. To people against GG that's ok, just as long as its not being done to them.
So we need to keep track of the harassment toward GG people so that they won't have that argument anymore.
"What the hell is with all these "Stop GamerGate" articles....good god. I mean all at roughly the same time aswell." It's what most media do. They make the controversy, and milk it for everything they can. All that Gaming media outlets need to do is say that they'll follow these simple rules: http://handbook.reuters.com... After that this whole things ends. Pretty simple really. Plus if it makes anyone feel better this whole "counter-attack" on GamerGate has failed: http://topsy.com/analytics?... The attempt to silence GamerGate only made it stronger. At this point it's not going away, and needs to be addressed how it should have been 2 months ago.
Lol, if they say they follow Reuters' guidelines just link to this: http://a.disquscdn.com/uplo...
If you don't like articles that discuss feminist issues in games and examine the industry from an angle you disagree with, why visit those websites? Why do you continue to give sites like Polygon and Kotaku clicks and video views if you want them to disappear. IGN and Gamespot exist for a reason and have largely stayed out of anything to do with Gamergate because they don't want to alienate their audience. Go there. Be happy. Move on with your life. To the constant claims that GamerGate is solely about a demand for higher ethical standards when it comes to writing about games, I simply ask: Where are all these "shady going ons" you speak of. Even GamerGate's supposed catalyst (the Nathan Grayson and Zoe Quinn thing) was proven false. Like I say in this story, I think we should be talking about ethics when it comes to writing about games, just not in the context of the toxic GamerGate movement.
How is the Quinn thing "false" when many who participated in it admitted to participating in it? The boyfriend was cheated on, Quinn confessed to having cheated on him, and at least one of the guys she cheated on him with - who was apparently married through Quinn didn't know about that - admitted to the affair. Then when looking at the non-affair related crap, the Fine Young Capitalist episode, that too was supported. Quinn used her position to subvert and coop that effort for herself. If anything was truly toxic about any of this, it was how the likes of Polygon and Kotaku responded to it. @Megaplaynate: "It's fine if you have and opinion about politics and feminism, just as long as you keep it to yourself or at least away from my games." Yeah, that's the thing: Aside from the sexism issue, the feminist side seems to have a "side agenda" about imposing their opinions on the game industry.
I'm not giving Kotaku or Polygon any clicks, ever since Gamergate started the list of sites I won't visit has grown a lot. It's fine if you have and opinion about politics and feminism, just as long as you keep it to yourself or at least away from my games. And Nathan did write an article that featured Literally Who's game.
Ok, now I know you're just being deliberately stupid. Stating that whole zoey quin issue has been proven false... You can kick and scream as much as you want, it's not magically going to turn a fact into a falsehood. I think you need to to a bit of research before you say something else that makes you look utterly delusional.
Thought that was obvious: they're using the momentum of the MSNBC interview and reaction to the gun threat.
" What the hell is with all these "Stop GamerGate" articles....good god. I mean all at roughly the same time aswell. " We know what they are about. These people have been exposed, they are scared and these are DESPERATE acts of damage control. The more they are exposed the more desperate their actions become.
Dude, it's just shills and the agenda-pushing corrupt. They're getting desperate because they're losing. #GamerGate has all the victories... all they have is "muh soggy knees".
"misogynistic" Story Quality? WTF? Like this website? No.
@annoyedgamer Look at the comment I've made already, its truly sad.
"The word Gamer now holds a more negative connotation than ever before‚ especially after the recent shooting threat related to popular feminist gaming critic Anita Sarkeesian speaking at Utah State University..." REALLY? Please tell me where in the threat (YOU POSTED!) is the word, gamer, gaming, gamergate, or any other reference that would even tie the threat being related to videogames. It is clearly related to her feminist ideological views. Just because she uses games as a platform does not make the threats GAME related. Its related to her beliefs. FFS! You journalists are trolling so hard its irritating.
Well I can see that this site has no journalistic integrity and just wants to jump on the hate bandwagon without doing any research. Downvoting this sh*t.
As a rule of thumbs , since n4g is supposed to be a site for gamers , they should just ban articles that are basically "against gamers"
That's akin to saying we shouldn't allow Fox News reports that blame gamers for things. It's about gamers, whether it's good news or bad. N4G is not a site that's just "pro-gamers everything" here. We're a gaming news site. It's gaming news. And note that it's the community that is approving these things, giving them heat. So, apparently, it's something the gamers here want to see/discuss.
While I wholly agree with you about not censoring news as we argue about people who are censoring news and trying to control narrative for their own ends, you have to admit that some politics are involved with N4G's approval process. That one or two stories get past which are either poor quality or even broken links. Thanks for allowing a discussion btw. Even if it is largely reactionary.
Yeah i of course realise i'm being extreme , but at some point , when a filtering system is in place either way , i feel we should at least trim down some fat . And Fox news actually talks about games sometimes , even if in an unflattering light and/or with erroneous data . I'm no saying we should only allow positive articles about gaming But the amount of opinion pieces that got very little to do with gaming , but are about ostracizing , patronizing , insulting even sometimes the people playing games , feels a bit much and overwhelming especially at the expense of the rest , and for hits .
At some point, though, a limit has to be reached. A handful of people are pushing an agenda, and they're using N4G to do it. I could understand if it were legitimate, but this is most certainly not. Just having gaming as the subject doesn't make it worthy of being promoted. Honestly, I look at this as clickbait or flamebait: it's not an honest attempt at discussing the subject, as evinced by the intentional demonization of gaming from the very start. Be it Fox or any other outlet, they shouldn't be legitimized if their main goal is sensationalism, or capitalizing on the popular trend without regard for veracity. Yes, some members of the community here WILL support the article and the stance it takes... just as some believe 9/11 was an inside job. That isn't reason enough for us to allow such notions to spread. Something needs to be done about this kind of thing, and we gamers are best suited to the task.
***Something needs to be done about this kind of thing, and we gamers are best suited to the task.*** Then part of that needs to be not visiting sites where such things prosper. Including N4G. That may look like a weird thing for people to read coming from me, but the reason it gets so much publicity is because of sites like reddit, N4G, and even NeoGAF. Places where the rapid dissemination and discussion on topics happen as opposed to a focused look at things based on those who will curate news to a specific theme. As it is, N4G is not about news curating, but community focused and driven discussion. That isn't to say I agree with that focus, only that this is what N4G is at this time.
I do appreciate that news here, good or bad, can make it through. But at some point when certain sites continuously show such hate for the community they serve, and games as well, it makes you wonder if they are about games at all. With places like fox news, as per your example, they are at least reporting on something that is going on with gaming. The current trend, particularly today, is just another side trying to censor another. I'm all for allowing dissident views to be allowed here or elsewhere for discussion. But these types of articles only preach to those that already believe what's being said, and the discussion here just becomes an echo chamber for those that already know what gamer gate is. Anyhow, if I had to choose between these annoying articles, which can't even really be called news, and certain powers that be(such as yourself) having the power to censor what goes up here, I would choose these annoying stories, because at the very least we can maybe get one more person to realize what's going on. I guess I just wish there was a bit more partisanship, or more representation of our side that got out to the mainstream.
But it's not as if sites or articles around here arent censored , for lack of a better word , because of some criterias or reactions from the readership . So yeah of course they could be given the boot . Or are we going to pretend we didnt kick out some like Hiphopgamer at some point , one truly annoyed fellas to many of us , a patholigical liar even , but at least with a love for the industry , and are missing it ? On another note , with people sometime feeling their grading and reporting on peculiar bad sites is mostly ignored , maybe it would be nice to have an at least more transparent grading system with the vague "wtf" and "no" . After all , for all the constant complains and assumed reporting of stuff like Polygon and Kotaku , how do we know those arent even just ignored , to favor a site with big hits regardless ?
HHG was given the boot for breaking the rules (plagiarism/use of content w/o permission and continued attempts to bypass the temporary ban on his site due to said actions). If Dualshockers or any other site does things that warrant, by N4G policy, a ban on their site, then it will happen. Up until that time, they are free to submit news to the site as long as it is withing the N4G guidelines for submissions. ***maybe it would be nice to have an at least more transparent grading system with the vague "wtf" and "no" .*** The moderator team has suggested similar things to improve grading a site and even going so far as being able to completely hide a site based on your grade of them. It is not within our capability to implement such a thing and I cannot guarantee such a thing will ever exist going forward. ***how do we know those arent even just ignored , to favor a site with big hits regardless ?*** I wouldn't say that they are ignored, but I also wouldn't say that the people who own N4G and its sister sites don't understand that for every hit we give to those sites, we tend to get 10x as many hits on N4G as well. === I think I've answered that as diplomatically as I can. I know it's not the answers you want, but it's the answers we all have whether we like it or not.
Dont worry i'm always glad to at least discuss those points
"Starting a dialogue around the ethics of covering the gaming industry is a worthwhile discussion but not in the context of Gamergate." I agree with this statement. It is a very relevant concern and discussion and it needs to be had. However, I feel the catalyst that started this particular instance fundamentally corrupts the message. Much like a Supreme Court case, SCOTUS only takes cases where the issue is perfectly teed up. In this case, there are two issues that aren't really related, so there can be no resolution. TL:DR; Lets find the next impropriety and drop this one completely.
I disagree with you entirely. Dropping this entirely is exactly what they would like us to do simply because they want to avoid talking about it all. They have made that much clear when they labelled a group of thousands as a hate mob. They are trying to scapegoat an inconvenience away. I don't buckle to bullies. I don't give liars an inch. And these people have lied, slandered, and bullied for almost a month and a half. These people will just find a way to deflect these allegations again when something else happens. They will just use the same tactics over and over to do so. All the vitriol levelled at us will just move elsewhere. The people involved in this DON'T LIKE GAMING CULTURE. They admit themselves, they are fighting a culture war for whatever reason and gaming and gamers have been drawn into it. We either take our stand now, or we don't and all of this gets nicely swept under the rug.
An impassioned argument for sure. One I can understand and agree with to a certain extent, but the issue is too clouded in this particular instance. On one hand you have journalistic integrity. One that we "gamers" have long suspected of being corrupt to one extent or another. On the other hand you have the catalyst being one that involves the sexual/private life of a female game developer. There will be no traction on this issue with these two issues involved. There is no resolution here. Let me ask, what is the end game? What does either party hope to achieve here?
2 things. 1. Adopt an ethics policy. 2. Adhere to it. I do see where you are coming from, but the fact is a lot of people don't care about ZQ's sexlife. They care about who she slept with and the coverage her game received. That is an important distinction to make which I think has become lost in the maelstrom of trying to discredit the whole movement. The fact is, we moved on very quickly. Was Zoe a catalyst, sure she was, and her manner of attention seeking helped perpetuate that this was about here, but the fact is we moved on to digging up more unethical standards without her involved at all.
Pintheshadows, I 100% agree with you in that the majority of #gamergate supporters have long since moved on. An ethics policy stated on the website would be an excellent thing for many major websites to adopt and adhere to. However, just because "gamergate" has moved on, doesn't mean gaming journalism has. Its a trump card that gaming journalism can and will play. There are immature d-bags that use slang/threats/etc. that muddle the message of gamergate...doesn't help the cause. I guess Im more wishing that we had a better case. Something that didn't involve any social issue other than corruption.
Don't let a group of idiots discourage you. All they have been really doing is providing us with more examples of their unbelievable hypocrisy and proving that we were indeed right to go after them. The whole establishment is rotten to its core and we have let them live in 'unaccountability tower' for too long. This has been growing for a decade. It isn't going to stop because they run to the arms of the mainstream media. Each time they act like they are seemingly programmed to act, we laugh, we share, we talk, and our resolve grows stronger. Gamergate has been going on for a month and a half. Destiny didn't stop it. Shadow of Mordor didn't stop it (what a great game by the way, let us remember what we are fighting for). There attempts to derail us haven't stopped it. It simply isn't going to go away as they hope it will.
It wouldn't matter what we call it, or what we move on to. It would just come back around to being a hate movement to those that don't want to face the issue that gamergate is trying to address. Gamergate is not flawed. It isn't asking for a lot. It is simply asking for a code of ethics among game journalists and publications, and that the sites adhere to those standards. Basically, we want to know if we can trust the news that we are receiving. It's not a hard concept to grasp, and it should be concerning that so many sites just can't say, "Yeah, we can do that, no problem". It should be concerning that they want the movement to go away, and that when it won't go away, they try to marginalize it, or make it into something it isn't.
i am will to bet if say the hastag was #Gamersagainsterjournalism or #journaliststiofuckingup we should have both sides giving death threats and we would all still be called sexist
I keep trying to explain to people on Twitter (a waste of breath) that the very fact the 'journalists' we went after due to a lack of ethics, are now attacking and slandering a movement of thousands, shows that we were right. They ignored us, we kept going. They laughed at us, we kept going. They launched a full on attack, we kept going. And the more they deride us and ignore the facts that we have provided time and time again, the more our resolve will strengthen. It saddens me that so many will blindly trust the websites that we have cold hard evidence against, simply because they supposedly represent our medium. They just constantly merry go round back to the 'bu-bu-bu- harassment'. And they can't tie that harassment to GamerGate beyond what someone in the very press that we are taking to task said. It is mind boggling that they cannot see what is happening here. And I am not about to submit to bully tactics just because these journalists want to a) use #GamerGate as a convenient scapegoat to get rid of it and b) in the process not have to answer any of the allegations aimed at them. I wrote an almost 4000 word essay on my experiences of just using the tag. If you want to read it let me know and I will message it to you. If you are at this on Twitter, come find me.
Don't forget C)garner lots of hits off the controversy so they can make money from it. Although, it's a short term gain if they can't manage to come to a resolution, as it seems a lot of people are putting sites on their ignore list. Hell, I have Gamasutra on my list, and that was the last place I expected to express or support any kind of anti-gamergate propaganda. I was utterly disgusted when my most trusted gaming website for actual issues in the industry(more on the development side) could allow such a thing to pass for an actual article. Also, why not post your essay as a blog? then anyone can read it.
It irritates me as much as the next guy when people throw out accusations such as 'misogamist', 'sexist', 'racist', etc etc to silence legitimate gripes that are not based on sex, race. -but- the problem is the GamerGate crowd has too many emotionally immature people who go way overboard. Not everyone in the movement, but enough to make the movement look bad. What do death threats or rape threats accomplish? As a movement, they don't seem to understand restraint, understand how to pick their battles, understand media messaging. The feminists they've locked horns with understand these things and are playing the media to make anyone outside the movement believe it's some kind of creepy misogynist thing, and it reflects badly on all gamers. Unfortunately I don't see it changing because this battle will keep escalating just like another console war or something. :(
Again, none of the death and rape threats are tied to #GamerGate. If you can provide me evidence stating otherwise, I would welcome it. However, as there is none I will continue to support a movement of thousands of people who I have seen time and time again condemn and report even the slightest inkling of harassment. And I want to make it very very clear, that whilst a lack of tact and manners can be very annoying, it doesn't constitute harassment and it doesn't constitute death or rape threats. And lets not forget, using this logic, that Jennifer D'aww, a pro GG member, was threatened in exactly the same manner as Brianna Wu (shockingly, they were almost identical) yet the media didn't give it any coverage. That is unethical reporting to fit a narrative. And it is things like that that I stand on the GG side.
***Again, none of the death and rape threats are tied to #GamerGate.*** But #GamerGate is tied to them since they continue to associate themselves with the people who do it and do nothing to distance themselves from it either. In fact, #GamerGate has become pretty synonymous with threats against women. While it may not be a fair association, it is one that has become due to how many people have made threats under the guise of #GamerGate.
It may well be that the threats are fabricated by someone trying to tarnish the movement. I don't know either way. But the movement really should stick to its core message and not let people like Brianna sidetrack it. Don't feed the trolls, ignore them lol
You can't be serious. Your comment is full of conjecture, and nothing more. All Gamergate did was condemn and distance themselves from the threats and harassment (something we didn't have to do as we shouldn't have to condemn something that should be patently obvious to anyone). We've been doing for almost a bloody month yet nothing is good enough. The goalposts shift so fast that they have left The Flash in the dust. The fact we have had to defend ourselves only served to derail our overall message and further played into the narratives that these publications were trying to push. I actually saw opposition saying, (the same people who hold the assumptions you do) that why are we condemning and defending ourselves for things we didn't do. They claimed it was suspicious. These people are never satisfied. At this point GamerGate could cure cancer, solve all famine, and create world peace, and it still wouldn't be enough. And I, and many others won't buckle to these people. As you may be able to tell, I am sick of it. I am sick of being abused and insulted by people who claim to fight for 'equality' yet do that by pushing another group of people down simply because they dislike dissenting opinions. We said it from the beginning to the point where we were blue in the face. If you bothered to spend any time in the tag over the last month it would have been blindingly obvious. We are having to defend ourselves from something we had nothing to do with and I am getting a little sick of assertions like yours. They are nonsense. And they are betrayal of all the terrific people being condemned, harassed, and threatened for simply daring to use a hashtag. If our movement has been discredited by threats in no way tied to it, then what about the opposition who have happily advertised the fact they are doxxing people? What about the death threats pro GG'ers have received (I can actually reel off more death threats aimed at pro GG'ers than I can of the otherside)? What about the fact that these people wear it like a badge of honour and think it is funny? I'll point you in the direction of Jennifer D'aww on Twitter. Go talk to her and come back to me with an informed point of view. And you need to be aware CGood. The people that are behind this wider movement don't want our culture to improve. They want it flattened and they want to build their own on top of our ashes. Melodramatic, perhaps, but these people hate us. They look down on as 'gamers'. Hell, if you believe some of them they want to chemically castrate us before having us executed. But thats okay right because they stand on the side of harassed women?
By all the personal info leaks and threats to pro-GG personalities, including Boogie2988 and his wife despite his attempts at trying to be neutral and bring reason to things, the feminist side is as bad if no worse. If its true that several of their spokespeople have been racist both in the past and currently. Its just that those actions aren't being reported by either the main or gaming media who appear to be solidly on their side. And recent gun threat aside, the feminist side has never honestly tried to talk to the calmer and well-known personalities of #GG. They have either backed out or tried to excite and exploit things in their favor. I keep thinking that the anti-#GG side speaking in favor of journalistic ethics would shut down the most major #GG complaint, expose us for the misogynist we are, bring over the segments of #GG complaining about it, but that isn't even a ghost of a consideration on their side. Just the misogynist insistence that's being applied to anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with them.
This is as stupid as saying you hate all Christians because of the Westboro Baptist Church. You know what? It's even more stupid than that because death threats and misogyny isn't related to GamerGate in any way. There have been death threats sent to a lot of GamerGate supporters as well. Does that mean we should get rid of feminism? Does #StopFeminism2014 sound good to you? I don't think so.
We have to keep fighting for journalistic integrity. We're clearly hitting the corrupt where it hurts. Keep voicing your concerns!
Actually, Gamergate (God I hate that name lol) has everything to do with ethics in journalism. As far as I'm concerned, that's the entire point. A lot of deflection going on in the industry if anyone brings it up, though. Me thinks they're refusing to admit that there's a problem by blaming the players (the lifeblood of the industry, mind you) for "blowing this out of proportion".