Sarkeesian: the perfect storm of right message, wrong conclusions and internet rage

GameZone's Samantha Bishop: "I respect her efforts, but I just don’t agree with her. Obviously, that’s the TV Guide version of things, but I figure I’d preference with the fact before elaborating. I consider myself a well-read, self-aware and fully functioning member of my society and the subcultures I participate in. That said, I also consider myself a feminist, despite the fact that many treat it like a dirty word. I feel informed enough to know where she’s coming from and even appreciate her stance, but still disagree with her conclusions without being accused of either bandwagoning or being some sort of gender traitor. Discourse is a part of dialogue, and violence against women is a monumental topic that covers a lot of ground in a lot of varying arenas. It needs to be addressed by society on the whole and I’m glad there are those out there who feel confident enough in their perspective to put themselves on the global stage and argue their case."

[Riggans42]

Appreciate the spoiler alert in the beginning.

[annoyedgamer]

More defense for this babbling clown. Meanwhile women in the middle east get acid thrown on them on their way to school. But that's none of my business.

[Riggans42]

The author isn't really defending her. She actually disagrees with the conclusions Sarkeesian makes but thinks it's an important topic. And she agrees that violence and threats are terrible...

[brbobcat]

Wow, you really are annoyed

[EdoubleD]

Of course we are, we had enough of this bullcrap.

EDIT: Welp, ignore this post. The joke went over my head.

[Dan_scruggs]

Then go post comment on Huffington Post about how horrible that is. But you probably wont because Huff Post uses your Facebook info for the world to see just in case you say something incredibly stupid.

[Blacktric]

And you should go yell about how "women in videogames are being represented wrong!" in the middle of the busiest town of Iran in arabic.

I mean why not?

[Gh05t]

"Meanwhile women in the middle east get acid thrown on them on their way to school. But that's none of my business."

Okay and what exactly do you want N4G (or the people of) to do about this? What have you done about this? I know what I have done in the Middle East (USMC) but what more would you ask of me?

Seriously you sound like a keyboard hero. Unless you have a plan to stop something bringing up tragedy to put things into a smaller context is stupid especially since this is a site based on VIDEO GAMES!

There will ALWAYS be bigger issues than video games and anything that comes from that. This site is based on Gaming and acid on the faces of women in the middle east has ZERO to do with video games.

[Halo2ODST2]

Murderer !!!

[LordMaim]

Perhaps this article would be more informative if the author were to discuss what conclusions Sarkeesian made that she did not agree with. For someone who literally only knows of Sarkeesian's work through the fame/infamy it has elicited, I'm not sure what the author is branding as an incorrect conclusion.

[kingdip90]

I identify as a feminist and because of taking the time to look into what the word means I know that a feminist is someone who wants equality for both genders.

Anyone who looks at something from a standpoint of only one gender with disregard as to how they may be portraying the other in a very negative light be it consciously or sub consciously is being sexist.

To be a true feminist one must consider how something positively or negatively portrays both genders, rather than focusing on how the over sexualized games on the market exploit women, also consider how it exploits men (after all it is often a guys money such images are trying to extract).

The woman in the article by means has the "right" message in fact it's a very sexist one.

[Ogygian]

Let's say I agree about "feminist" meaning "supporter of gender equality" (though etymologically, it cannot, in absolute terms). The problem is that "equality" exists on many levels: are we talking of opportunity? Outcome? Culture?
I mean if equality means equality of happiness than I'm a radical feminist, but if it means equality of culture then I'm a radical anti-feminist (I mean what's wrong with socially constructed gender binaries if they result in men and women both being happier than if they had no natural gender identity of their own?).
So my problem with that word is that it does nothing to divide the different types of feminist, who are seeking completely different outcomes.

As for sexualised games exploiting men, you could argue that celebrity chefs exploit people by creating delicious food and charging through the roof for it!

[kingdip90]

Well in regard to men being exploited in over sexualized games men are also portrayed as impossibly good looking, muscular and in many cases very almost naked in the same way women are.

Feminism is the theory of political, social and economic equality of the sexes.

http://i.word.com/idictiona...

Point made on my analogy of a man being exploited in regard to raunchy imagery your chef analogy did a good job of shooting that down lol.

All I am trying to say is that gender bias and poor portrayals of gender effect everyone involved in whatever medium is doing a poor job portraying everybody well. Men should not be excluded from talks as to what is offensive to some men in their portrayal this isn't limited to gender either but also race.

I feel the feminists of today (and I use that term loosely) with their focus purely on women's rights rather than every bodies regardless of their good intentions cause and "us vs them" mentality that perpetuate the hurt feelings and offensive bouts between groups on the internet today and by being focused purely on their own genders status actually hinder their cause more than help it.

[Ogygian]

True, but I don't mind men being portrayed in that way (well, realistically muscly), as it gets me to the gym! Also, incredibly good looking men make a game visually more pleasant to play through (straight hetero man saying this).

That definition of feminism still doesn't indicate what type of social equality it means (equal happiness? Or are we condemning make-up use so that the interests of men and women become equal?)

But I'd take a counter-stance to this issue. I think women should demand more sexualised portrayals of men so the scores are made even. As long as people understand that these are fictions/fantasies (and perhaps these articles could sop condemning games and just focus on teaching people to take a mature approach to how they let them affect views in real life), then we can all play the games we want (live out our fantasies) without them creating false expectations.

If men are offended by such portrayals I'll tell them to grow thicker skin! I mean we can either take the prudish option and desexualise women or take the opposite strategy, which is to sexualise men.

I've often said this: we need to get more women playing console+PC games! Right now, they're too small a proportion of the market to receive much developer focus (the ESA survey inclided mobile games, which many women play), but if they increase in number we'll:

A: get more games (as there will be more money floating around) and

B: get "women's" games which will include sexualised portrayals of men among other things. Finally

C: mainstream games will become more balanced, as there'll be a larger market and even gender split they need to appeal to.

This way, the market will be more like the market for films, where men get our movies (300, The Expendables), women get theirs, like Magic Mike or The Notebook
(There is data proving that the favourite genres of women are romance and drama, so this isn't me being sexist. I know many feminists oppose movies where the end-goal is marriage or to fall in love, but i believe that this is where they cease fighting for women's rights and become anti-woman. Granting a group more rights does not include the "right to be free from present interests" which someone else arbitrarily thinks are bad purely because they're "socially constructed by the patriarchy". I mean if that argument were valid, terrorists could argue that they're freeing us from our liberalism socially constructed by "the intelligentsia", which obviously is flawed because freedom involves letting people be who they are, and not telling them that they're wrong and need to change their mind).

[kingdip90]

I am sure there are plenty of women who don't mind the way females are portrayed in media also, "feminists" hardly represent the whole spectrum of the female gender. I agree with you though I am not personally offended by how sexualized men are in games but I would understand if some men were. As I said above if one side of the coin can be talked about by the "feminists" then the other side must also be considered.

That definition of feminism in my mind would suggest that men and women be treated as equals in regard to legal situations (women have more rights than men here believe it or not), in the workplace meaning equal pay for equal work (men rule the roost on this one mostly), and that both be given the same respect in society (this one is a mixed bag in regards to what area you live in). The pursuit of happiness is up to the individual and as such both genders are kind of equal in that regard. Men don't have the same legal standing and women make less money so I think that evens out.

In regard to you using generalizations as to what movies are for men and for women some would find it sexist of you to say that but when it comes to tropes and stereotypes of genders there are many people who fit that mold so some may say it's a fair assessment.

Except for 300 that was totally lady porn disguised as an action movie.

[Ogygian]

Lol...the point about 300...Michael Fassbender's chiseled pecs...mind blown (not sarcasm).

Legally I think we're equal (perhaps slightly more in favour of women in the sense that men have to pay child maintenance even if the pregnancy was a complete accident), especially in the UK (couples can now share their maternity/paternity leave as they like; divorce settlements allow an equal share of assets, so women who *do* choose to stay at home are entitled to half of their partner's income).

There is a pay gap - 5% is the "discrimination factor" where equally qualified women get paid less than men (95%), so there's a little bit of work still to do here.

Social respect is indeed the tricky one, as many people have a different idea of how much respect is due, and whether this extends to media. I would say that the most important thing here is constructive dialogue (so not protest or yelling "misogyny") but trying to find compromises on how gender relations (which determines respect) can become more fruitful for both major genders. As long as the opinions of women are taken to be of equal value here, we can make this our long term goal: to put to use the combined "hard" legal and economic equality and let this influence "soft" equality in a way we find mutually agreeable through debate.

But really I think this needs honest discussion, influenced not by intolerant ideological notions, but by mutual respect, in a setting where we can learn to like the each other. I mean in my own experience I've found the women who no longer use the term "feminist" to be far more constructive in their ideas, as they, unlike *many* (not all) women who call themselves feminists, are willing to listen, and to compromise. I suppose this fits in to your point about the "us vs them" mentality.

[kingdip90]

I agree with that post completely.

When I say that men and women don't have the same legal standing I do mean in regard to children but not in regard to child support. A women has the right to give a child up for adoption or abort, she can elect to not be a parent in a personal or financial way if she so desires. A man however does not have that right. If she keeps the child he has no say in the matter at all. I'm not saying I agree with men not supporting their children just pointing out that women have more rights than men.

If discussions such as this one could be had on this subject could happen more often I genuinely believe the topic of gender equality would move along and we as a species would become a lot more tolerant of one another. Sadly people have way to many hurt feelings towards this topic and some even feel that men born in this day in age should pay for what the men of yesterday did and that is most unfair.

Thankyou very much for what has been a good discussion thus far.

[Ogygian]

I completely agree with that last comment.

And thank you also for a constructive, thought-provoking discussion!

:)

[Conzul]

"...It’s terrifying to think that casual threats of rape and mutilation are common place for something so benign as a difference of perspective..."

Except that, irrespective of threats, she does not JUST have a benign little difference of perspective.
She has an agenda.

Good to see though that someone with woman parts isn't kissing her ass.

[yewles1]

Right message... wrong messenger apparently.

[MadMax]

Someone needs to send this feminazi to The Middle East!!!

[1886afc]

for what?

[ShaunCameron]

To make her experience real sexism. But the funny thing is for all the talk that women are treated poorly over there, men are treated even worse. After all, men have always been disposable despite being the work-engines responsible for the building, maintenance and advancement of society. And the Middle East is no exception.

Women were "oppressed" in the past to provide an incentive for men to marry them and channel their productive capacity towards keeping society afloat. And that incentive was the woman would be a virgin unconditionally obedient to him and the kids she bore would be 100% biologically his as men would go all out for his family.

In essence, what feminism is really about is women wanting men to protect and provide for them while not being required to obey and submit to them in return. Basically, they want something for nothing.

[Reefskye]

people need to stop giving Anita hits to be fair never heard of her until a few days ago her youtube channel has shot up in viewers since this all started. She playing gamers for idiots and making a ton of cash from it. Best course of action for someone like her is ignore her, don't watch her videos, She never mentions any games with strong women as lead. Art imitates life not the other way round.

She isn't a real gamer and never has been, She's the type of person who would read 50 shades of grey thinks its good and then soon as a male version was made she be up in arms telling everyone its degrading to women. I know in your perfect world Anita all female characters no matter how small of a part would be strong women, but life isn't like that and it isn't the same for men either in any form of media.

Now please anyone who reads this STOP letting her play us all for fools, She wants you to be pissed off about it its how she gets hits and in turn earns her living.

She won an award at GDC when there are many women in the gaming industry who deserved it more, stop letting her troll you!