Glory vs. Fun: Did Sakurai Just Fool the Pro Smash Community?

Hardcore Gamer: The newly dropped news regarding Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS’s online play has rattled the cages of how Smash Brothers is interpreted in the competitive fighting game scene, but how can the upcoming installments to this much-loved series cater to two extremely different fanbases?

[ValKilmer]

Ugh, you gotta go after the hardcore with this series. Sure little Johnny third grader will want the game, but only if his college brother hypes it up because it's genuinely a solid game/

[randomass171]

They're accommodating both kinds of players. Why isolate it to just the niche crowd when lots of newcomers may want to play?

[ShinMaster]

Smash was already accessible. Catering to both casual/for fun players and the more hardcore players.

Sakurai apparently doesn't like pro players. He even added tripping in Brawl and changed the controls, which are some of the reasons why Melee remains the main competitive Smash game.

[Ab-NoR-maL-]

I understand that what Sakurai thinks he is attempting to do is cater to both competitive and casual alike, but why would he intentionally sabotage the competitive scene in terms of gameplay mechanics (which is really what is most important to the competitive side)?

Take Melee for example. Simple to pick up and play casually while being difficult to master at the same time. The advanced mechanics of competitive play did not affect the goofy 4 person Free For Alls with your buddies. Both the competitive and casual scene enjoyed the game. The game even ended up being the top selling game for the Gamecube.

Now look at Brawl. While it was a massive success in terms of sales, it was not well received by the competitive scene. Slowed down gameplay and highly rewarding for campy playstyle drove the competitive scene back to Melee and to make a "hack" for Brawl that made the game more like Melee (but with better balance).

You may argue that Brawl had better sales than Melee (over 11 million Brawl sales vs around 7 million Melee sales I believe), so they must have done the right thing by slowing down the game, but this isn't necessarily true. If you look at the sales of the Wii compared to the sales of the Gamecube, the Wii absolutely blows out the Gamecube (over 100 million Wiis vs about 20 million Gamecubes). That being said, Melee was owned by about 1 out of every 3 Gamecube owners, while Brawl was owned by about 1 out of every 10 Wii owners, so you could argue that Melee could have been more successful than Brawl if more Gamecubes were sold.

The point that I'm trying to make is that casual players will pretty much enjoy any Super Smash Bros game that is made, while competitive players will be more particular about the game they're playing (it's to be expected when someone is more dedicated about something). It just seems that Sakurai has a personal vendetta for the competitive scene, and refuses to give them anything they want.

[Dravidian]

I think you're underestimating the power of Mario and Pikachu on a video game cover together...

[ValKilmer]

Eh. Maybe in 1997.

[Chrischi1988]

I know why you say that, because back then, like me, you probably liked Pokemon up to the first 151 and after that it just wasnt the same anymore... But I know, Pokemon did not die, even though I did not hear to much about it. The thing is, Pokemon is still super huge, we are just to old, my nephew who is in 5th grade, is a huge Pokemon fan and he told me all the kids at school are.

[Sammyto]

I dont know why ppl complain so much ssb is the type of game u can play in almost anyway if u dont wanna play hc just play the other way around unless u need a handicap mode to have fun

[eaise]

The article is wrong about the 1v1. For Glory makes 1v1 possible online but it doesn't happen every time.

Kinda off topic: I will be playing on both of the online modes depending on what mood I'm in

[randomass171]

It may be possible to choose whether you play 1v1, 2v2 or Free for All. Brawl's online had similar options in spite of how poor it was.

[MNGamer-N]

I am going to play this game for fun. Pretty sure I won't be good enough to compete with all the professional die hard smash players out there. Plus didn't they say no items in the "for glory" mode? I love items. So I'll probably play for fun more than the other.

[randomass171]

Don't sell yourself short. I think since Smash has such a simplistic play style, anyone can become good enough to be competitive with practice and some mastering. :)

[Benjaminkno]

Indubitably

[Are_The_MaDNess]

well the new global ranking system will also be in play with matchmaking. so im hoping we wont get matched with pro guys all the time >____<

[choujij]

I don't mind if it caters to both, as long as it does "hardcore" well. I really wanted to like brawl, especially since Sonic was in it. But I only really started enjoying it since Project M was released.

[wonderfulmonkeyman]

Rather than fooled, I'm going to go with the term "fed".
He gave both sides a slice of heaven by finding a way to cater to two distinctly different styles of play at once.

I wish people would quit trying to downplay all the good things that are coming out of Smash's development...

[Geekman]

For fun, mostly for me. While I'm good at the game, I see no point in playing a no items mode with one stage in a game famous for its items and stages. I'll definitely check it out though, when I'm feeling competitive. I just hope the 3DS online doesn't suck so I don't have to wait until Winter to get solid online experiences.

[AntsPai]

Me and my friends are the 'no fun allowed' type, we always play without items but as silly as that sounds we have a hell of a good time. Sunk easily over 1000 into Melee and Brawl each, going to buy WiiU solely for this game, same way Brawl is the only Wii game I own.

[Benjaminkno]

I like "limited" items that change the atmosphere more than take over the match, like smoke balls, punching bag, mr. saturn, maybe soccer balls to shake things.

They can be a nice detail.

[TuxedoMoon]

Personally, I don't think Sakurai's opinion on competitive gamers have changed at all. He gimped brawl to turn off competitive players after all and these 2 online modes kinda shows that his opinion is still there. Yeah, Namco is helping but at the end of the day he's the one calling the shots. The Online looks better than Brawl so far, but not as good as Tekken Tag 2 or Soul Calibur or DOA4's online mode with lobbies and such.

As long as it doesn't lag, this is better than nothing.

[colonel179]

Why I don't understand is, For Glory is like a ranked match? Why limit it only to one kind of stage and no items?? Why is wrong to have a for glory mode with items and everything the game has to offer?

At least that's how it sounds like to me. For Fun just a quick match to have fun with friends, and For Glory isolate everyone for Pro Players, so no chance to have a "complete" experience.

[SpiralTear]

It's limited because those are the rules that pro Smash players usually follow in their matches. They hate items because they don't like unpredictable attacks and only play on Final Destination because different stage architecture can change how a match progresses.

Really, Sakurai is just giving the competitive crowd what they want.

[wonderfulmonkeyman]

There are some competitive players over on Smash Boards who are actually saying that this isn't really a good reflection of the competitive side of the series; that it's too closely based on that "no items, Fox only, FINAL DESTINATION!" meme that's still floating around.
I've heard things like some characters do and do not do well on an entirely flat stage, so they do use some other stages, like Battlefield, to balance out some of the picks.

As for me?
I respect Sakurai for at least trying to do a good job of catering to both competitive and non-competitive players.
It's more than a lot of devs have done lately, and it's one of the hardest things to do these days.
I'd say he's done a better job than most.

[Tempest317]

Genuine question here, as I am terrible at all fighting games, so I don't play it much: You said

"They hate items because they don't like unpredictable attacks and only play on Final Destination because different stage architecture can change how a match progresses."

That doesn't seem very pro to me. Wouldn't you want these things? Wouldn't that be much more of a challenge with more skill required plus more rewarding for the win? Honestly only wanting to play a single map with no items is stupid and seems noobish to me. Again, those are serious questions, and I would appreciate any answers.

[SpiralTear]

@Tempest317

You'd think that adapting to the more random elements and playing with a versatile and adaptive skillset (regardless of what comes your way) would make you "pro." Hell, I'd think that too, but the competitive fighting game scene bases their ideology on isolating the gameplay down to the players' skill and nothing else.

I don't think that basing every bit of the gameplay to player-controlled elements makes you a pro at anything. Sure, it gives the player a command over their play style, but it's boring. A player who can be versatile, quick-on-their-feet and prepared for almost any occurrence is infinitely more "pro" than someone who's only trained on the same stage and conditions.

That's my view at least.

[Ab-NoR-maL-]

@Tempest317

Random elements are always best to avoid in competitive play of any game. Say you're playing, and an item such as a pokeball drops right onto one player, while the other player is on the other side of the stage. Inside the pokeball is the best pokemon possible, and it ends up costing a stock to the player who didn't get it. How is that fair at all, and how does that determine who is better (which is ultimately the point of high level play)? The only way items could be competitive is if specific items drop at specific times in specific locations (like power weapons in a game such as Halo). That would promote stage control. But just random items dropping randomly all over the stage? What's competitive about that at all?

[Tempest317]

@Ab-NoR-maL

The players ability to overcome obstacles such as what you described is what makes them pro. If it's a guaranteed loss if that happens 1 of 2 things is the case. 1 - the player isn't actually pro or 2 - the game isn't balanced properly. I don't understand how lack of variety and inability to overcome/retaliate against things like random items and changing stages can possibly be considered pro. Pro players should be able to account for these things and change strategies on the fly to compensate. Anything less shouldn't be considered professional imho.

[SpiralTear]

@wonderfulmonkeyman

Sakurai had to endure a lot of hate for Brawl. The people who loved Melee wanted him to make Brawl like that, which was completely against his original vision.

The fact that he's actually offering some form of competitive-focused mode with this shows that he at least cares about gamers of all skill levels, but the people who tore him a new one because Brawl was so unlike Melee are not innocent. It's clear that they influenced his decision to make Glory and Fun separate modes, so they should not vilify him for it.

And I do agree that this is a tall order for him. I think he'll do fine; it's clear that he's putting a lot of effort into making this game awesome.

[colonel179]

I think is a mistake calling the modes "For Fun" and For Glory". I think it divides the user base. For fun seems like an "super guide mode".

I think the best would have been just to select what you want from a menu and not divide it into two different modes.

He has the right idea though, but not very good implementation.

[Skate-AK]

Probably won't be playing online. All my time will be in Arcade mode.

[johny5]

This game never fails to impress!

I can always count on there being a major a difference between the last game because they always release one title per console generation!

When this game comes out I'm getting me a Wii U!

[DEATHxTHExKIDx]

I just wanna own kidz in both modes....

[Ab-NoR-maL-]

The back story of how Smash came to be is kinda ironic. Sakurai didn't approve of fighting games being super competitive, because he thought the competitors would make the community a "less friendly place," so he decided to attempt to create a fighting game that couldn't possibly be competitive. He ended up failing, and the competitive scene grew. But the ironic part comes into play when you look at the competitive scene vs the casual scene. Based on Sakurai's logic, the pro players should be isolating the casuals for playing the game a different way, but it's really the other way around. The competitive scene couldn't care less how the casual scene plays, but the casual scene cares how the competitive scene plays. It's pretty much just the casual side bashing the competitive side, yet they are still playing the victim.

On another note, the competitive scene has always been given this stereotype that they only play Fox dittos on Final Destination. If any of the people who say this even did any research, they would realize how wrong they are. If you even watched one tournament, you would see that not even half of the matches played are on Final Destination. There are other maps played more frequently such as Battlefield, Dream Land, Yoshi's Story. There are maps that are banned because they add a random factor (same reason why there are no items allowed and why it's not 4 person free for all). And again, if you watched even one tournament, you would see that Fox isn't the only character that is used. He's one of the best characters, but there plenty other viable options.

Both sides of the community should just be accepting of one another. And it is possible to have a game be competitive and casual at the same time. Melee was a perfect example of that. Although Sakurai is trying his best to avoid it, having advanced techniques put in the game doesn't really hurt the casual side, it just helps the competitive side.

[Ck1x]

To everyone that's riding this so hard! You do know that these play modes are only this restrictive to random generated online matches. If you're gaming with friends or people that you normally play online with. Matches can be customized however you like. Gamexplain showed this recently in one of their analysis, the demo was characters fighting on a final destination stage with items turned on.