Microsoft Game Studios corporate VP Phil Spencer has offered some interesting new details on the future of the Xbox One, especially regarding the potential behind its Cloud computing service.
Cool(sincere) hopefully its true like cloud can increase the consoles power by 4 times, just be hopefully ! (sarcasm)
Wait till they find a way to hook the Xbone up to the Matrix, then you'll see power. http://transformers.wikia.c...
this is a couple years old but still somewhat relevant to the current situation: http://www.anandtech.com/sh... The idea of cloud assisted rendering is very possible. At least in the sense of this demo.
@datrhv72: Wow! "We saw the Wolfenstein demo raytraced at 1280x720 and averaging between 40 to 50 FPS, all being rendered on four servers with Knights Ferry at the core. Intel showed off the game visualized on a Dell notebook. All of the frames are sent to the thin client notebook over ordinary gigabit ethernet. Interesting visual features of the Wolfenstein raytracer include physics-correct refractions and reflections at interfaces like glass and water - taking into account the actual index of the material. and very recursive examples like a surveillance station camera with the surveillance station inside it." That said, nvidia demonstrated LIVE light based rendering in the cloud with different latencies (hardly noticeable until you get really high up): https://research.nvidia.com... http://www.tomshardware.com...
Why do so many peoole not believe in cloud rendering? We know render farms work. .. and we kniw PlayStation now works.
@Above that is render farm. This is completely different cloud. It is just PR at best. It theoretically cannot work on fast moving object. Which means it does not work on 99% games. 200 ms delay in car game= your light reflections are 30 FEET DELAYED at 100 mph. Even at 50 mph driving, your car lighting is awardly 15 feet behind your car. Even in COD if you sprint at 20 mph, your light reflections are 5 FEET behind you. So it actually degrades the graphics. Lol
@nukeitall Going through a service provider network (DSLAMs/CMTS, multiple hop routers, etc...) will add latency to the point that we are several years away from actually enhancing graphics for real time playing. All these demo's are far from real world. By the way - these data centers will also need to be co-located to the Service Providers to minimize latency, and this will cost tons of money. With most people not wanting to pay monthly gaming fees, this will remain another challenge... Don't get fooled by the "we've done experiments" marketing language.
SquareEnix demonstrated the capability of using cloud technology over 3 months ago. http://www.youtube.com/watc... http://jp.square-enix.com/f... It's probably the only feature i see coming close to the benefits of gaming on a PC without a pc. but you still need a fast internet connection to really take advantage of this.
"Yesterday Intel demonstrated a new example of raytraced graphics on the desktop using a raytrace rendered version of Wolfenstein. This time, it was based around a cloud-centric model where frames are rendered on 4 servers, each with a 32-core codename Knight's Ferry silicon at the core." We'll assume there's 4 million xbox ones out there. That's 16 million servers required to do wolfenstein at 720p, which did little other than add better looking reflections and lighting in some indoor scenes. Think about that for a while. @nukeitall As for the cloud aided rendering , the results will be dependent on the scene for how noticeable the latency will be. Case in point, at 150ms in the demo at the end, the lag isn't as apparent. However, at 150ms in the first demo they show (at 1:50, of the light panning around the cube), the delay is very noticeable. I'd rather have my games render locally so I can have a uniform experience throughout the game. I don't want some parts looking better than others because of fluctuations in my ping/bandwidth. I don't want to be forced to connect, or to have to hope my connection to the internet holds steady to keep from having to play a gimped version of my game.
@ darthv72 I seen it before, and it just doesn't mean anything. Comparing a local gigabit ethernet connection to a regular internet connection is like comparing writing a letter to someone and handing it to them directly to writing a letter to them and mailing it to them from halfway across the country. I have no question or doubt that a whole bunch of fancy rendering can be done server side, the doubt, question and zero proof of concept we have is that it can be translated into a real time game being mainly locally rendered and played hundreds of miles away over an average internet connection. It's a completely different thing. Bandwidth and latency. Reliability, stability and cost. Microsoft are SUGGESTING they can integrate server side rendering into locally rendered games over a regular net connection for most people that own a connected games console. Then show us real proof. They have been talking about this for a year now and how much evidence have we seen of it? Nothing. The fact he only casually mentions 'experiments' instead of talking about actual practical implementation in an example title speaks volumes. It's just PR bluster. You either render the whole thing server side and compress all the output like Gaikai does, or you do it all locally on the box in your house.
Ah MS's secret sauce BS at its finest here folks. If this cloud thing is so awesome make COD ghost run at 1080/60 then...
MS fanboys still falling for this crap, eh? When will youse learn?
"Don't get fooled by the "we've done experiments" marketing language." Too late. The kool aid is gone and the damage is done.
Not really, he was asked a question and gave a plain answer "experimenting" is hardly a huge "OMG we found the holy grail statement", but surely he's not going to say "its a hard thing to do so we gave up"....Hell no, any company a big as micro in the software business SHOULD BE EXPERIMENTING or more. Also in regards to Milo he said very clearly that the: “Idea was compelling and we learned a lot creatively but we struggled to get a full game out of it.” -So the idea just didn't work but unlike sony's big idea for ps3 "Home" they chose not to put it out anyway. lol lol, but hating micro always causes you to see "evil" where there is none. So continue on.
Gran Turismo 5 on PS3 used some ray-tracing on car models during pre-race scenes. KZ:SF uses real time ray-traced reflections. In hardware.
In addition, great to see Milo wasn't just a completely scripted and fake "demo" to sell ppl on the kinect! *more sarcasm*
Milo and Kate was a hoax, or at least the e3 demonstration was. http://www.youtube.com/watc... The cloud power is also a hoax. It isn't for graphical rendering. It is only CPU-based. http://www.youtube.com/watc... Do you think they are going to dedicate multiple clusters to each individual player just to cast shadows on the world? What if you are offline? What if you disconnect? Any talk of graphical rendering, like ray-tracing, and any demo of it is not representative of real world results. It is representative only that Microsoft has control over their own servers to dedicate dozens or hundreds to one demo to showboat and fuel more false hope in the misinformed cloud consumers.
PlayStation now does the exact same thing... so why do u consider it a hoax?
@k3rn3ll What are you talking about? Sony's Gaikai/Playstation Now servers? Those servers are constructed with graphical hardware, similar to PS3's for graphics related functions. They are designed for game and graphical streaming. Azure is not. It is meant for standard server functions. I'm not saying it is a hoax as in there are no servers or that the servers can't do something like this period. But, if they show you graphics related anything running on their servers in order to hype people up to thinking that will be done in actual games, like they had been suggesting to purposefully mislead people, then that is a hoax, because it isn't going to happen and is only for showboating. Again, they need a ton of their servers to make things like this happen, which they won't be doing for real world gaming. Only demonstrations. What Playstation Now does with 1 or 2 units for graphical operation Azure would take dozens because it isn't based around graphic processing.
@k3rnll3 playstation now is streaming old generations games only play you favorite ps-ps2-ps3-psp-psvita online using phone - tablet - ps4 - psvita cloud is a service that proccess data online more than your console can do, ps now vs xbox cloud look like youtube vs google youtube only streaming videos google can calculate any thing you write not just for searching and itscalled cloud calculation, its not a good example but its close to the informarion you need to know by comparing ps now with xbcloud
So they have servers powerful enough to do ray tracing (no big deal) and they can then stream the game (meh). They're really reaching for PR here...
As always, cloud computing can't deliver improvements in graphical computation power in the Xbox One.
Here's a thought.. What if the Xbox one's cloud could let you offload some post processing/filters/effects from your PC via local intranet or wi-fi, and them re-assemble assets to your xbox one's gpu and cpu to put it all together and your graphical power/ performance is boosted by how powerful your pc is? not a true 1:1 conversion of course, but perhaps help with a layer of dynamic lighting filters, or AAx8 or SSAO, or depth of field or even just buffer for optimizing frame-rates? Honestly, it CAN be done. I just think Sony fans are writing this and other cloud-related/influenced ideas off because they haven't thought that far ahead.. They are focusing on what come in the box.. instead of what they never conceived of being possible when console manufacturers think outside of the box. Having a system that can do all the nifty things the xbox one can do, and having a powerhouse in global technology, should speak enough volume to say "Back off of MS's shit for five seconds, and at least consider the possibilities before you bash a system that for all we know, is more than meets the eye.." Same goes for people speaking hate before any of us really even know what these systems are really about.. I mean, Sony could have something similar, or even MORE advanced in mind down the road, or they may implement new and boundary pushing tech to help prolong the lifespan of the PS4.. Same goes for Xbox one.. we really gotta give these consoles more time before we assume all the cards have been played by either party. I think maybe the EsRam may look like an flaw or oversight for now, but in flash rom style access architecture, it could be utilized effectively to help break down processes with cloud/pc/network assisted rendering. I AM gonna wait till we have a glimpse of their ideas before I try to be a fortune teller. I may be 100 percent wrong, but I could be 3 percent right as well, or be thinking of a similar or relevant system which could mean great advancements and game-changing features could be achieved by both Sony OR Microsoft. I for one, am gonna laugh when they both are- or CAN be capable of more than meets the eye.
@Kavorklestein It's kind of like the [email protected] feature on the PS3. You share the computation power with other users across a network to form one giant peer-to-peer supercomputer for Stanford University.(serious) That said, MS bought a lot of PS3s that still have the "other OS" feature and have them all in sync running Linux forming a mini-supercomputer to provide this Azure Cloud service. (sarcasm)
@ Omni Tool: No, it's not at all like [email protected] You are not funny or clever.
From all your negatively to Azure Cloud, you seem rather jealous. Its all a bonus to what is to come. http://www.polygon.com/2013... The Azure Cloud works, give it time.
I have one question. What games are taking an hour to install? BF4 took me around 5 minutes to be installed enough to play and I just installed The Lego Movie game (only 9 Gigs) and was able to play in 40 seconds.
The only game I got on disc was Ryse, and that took an age.
BF4 didn't take me but about 5 minutes also. People don't realise that when downloading on the xbox one. The game sits at 0 percent for a bit bc it's downloading all the updates first.
MUCH MUCH quicker to install games while disconnected from the internet, and then install updates later. I have Ryse and it took far too long to install for my liking, it seems to be an extreme case though. Hopefully they sort it out, I would like to be able to play ALL games within 1 minute of putting them in the drive for the first time.
Ryse took pretty long for me. Between a half hour and an hour if memory serves me.
Really? That's brutal
It was made all the more annoying because the only reason I bought it on disc was so that I had something to play immediately when I set up the console. C'est la vie.
CoD: Ghosts was terrible for some reason. I think it was 45 minutes. I only had a few disc games at launch because I wanted to make sure I was able to play things just in case there was a problem with Live and I couldn't download any digital games. Since then, I've given those games to my buddies and re-bought the digital version, so now I'm discless, and will remain that way going forward.
Thief took about an hour to install 45 minutes to be playable
Jesus! Thief only took me about 25 minutes and I was playing.
They really need to showcase this power of the cloud and if it truly is ray tracing and this technology is used with the next Halo, that would be incredible!
They will showcase something cloudy at E3. This response doesn't read like the ones they put out if there is anything cooking, so I don't think we'll be seeing ray tracing any time soon.
This isnt new..there was actually a lot of talk about the xbox one using this tech last year. I remember prior to launch alot of articles came up about this,infact some inside sources back then claimed that the tech was quite effective with the xbx one hardware. I also think Phils response is being misread,his mention of the cloud isnt in response to this tech.The xbx one is quite capable of running the tech without the cloud and if rumors are true then Ms and their studios may have been working with this tech for a while now Been waitng for ms to show us a demo using this tech for a while now. Maybe 343i, Rare or BTs next project will use it but however it goes i think we will see atleast one game using this tech at E3 and also a demo of the cloud(finally)...a game using the milo and kate tech wouldnt be a bad idea. http://www.ign.com/boards/t...
Here's your example. Article is from 2010, I think this is what Microsoft is attempting with its Azure servers. http://www.anandtech.com/sh...
I think cloud technology has a lot of potential, but i'm always skeptical until I hear it. I don't like the idea that to harness the full potential of my machine, I have to have stable internet access. There are always a lot of people and devices connected to the wifi at home, so it's never a great speed.
I agree that its very annoying to have such a reliance on a decent internet connection to really benefit from the cloud in the future if these fairy tales come true. But MS have no one but themselves to blame for the mixed perceptions from the public. The amount of people who fit the demographic that MS is catering for is far smaller than the gaming community as a whole. Everyone would want to experience a purchase to its full potential, but there are so many conditions surrounding the xbox one to actually have the experience that they intended. It just alienates their existing loyal fanbase and creates anger and frustration. But on the flip side, I'm also all for advancements in technology and if this works out as a practical benefit to gaming then MS will be laying the foundations for the future of digital experiences. Still annoying though.
Yeah, I agree with you. I think the cloud has a future, but it won't show itself manifesting anytime soon besides dynamic dedicated servers. In other words, I believe they over-promised it too soon.
No Milo and Kate? Thank God! Although I'm sure all the pedos out there are quietly crying in their sleeves.
Again with the Cloud? Come on MS, just let it go. Or at least quit touting it every chance you get. The Emperor is missing his clothes still.
"on being asked whether the Cloud could be used for ray-tracing in the future, Spencer said" he was asked about it, you want him to not answer?...
Even if it works 100% all credibility is gone from microsofts cloud promises that tell through. It's almost a running joke now. MS should downplay the cloud if anything. Or better yet, don't mention it at all.
its a joke to who? Sony fanboys. Not the rest of the world. Majority of people have no idea what the cloud even is to this day. Just be patient. E3 is right around the corner where Phil has already said they will demonstrate the technology at.
Wait, what promises on the Cloud did MS make that fell through? We haven't seen too many general games released on the XB1 and only two of them are making fair use of it, Forza 5 and Titanfall. System hasn't even been out for six months, what are you expecting? Speaking of making promises that haven't come through, you should look at this: http://www.computerandvideo...
More rubbish from there mouths unproven until people see it let alone latency
Not to mention that most of the population (especially in America) don't have internet connections with enough bandwidth to take advantage of most cloud applications.
milo never exist before :)
Seriously more promises from the cloud. We heard all this in the beginning and awaited games we thought would be amazing, instead we got nothing but shabby multiplats,
Judging by the disagrees you have gotten I would say the butthurt is strong within the xbox community. Doesnt make your statement any less true, though. Have an agree.
real-time ray-tracing? Of course it is possible for the servers to do it but you'd need a very stable connection. I'm talking about (equal or) less than a 33ms ping (for 30fps games, 16ms for 60fps). I don't know how a backup solution would look and how it would confuse the gamer if the connection doesn't meet this condition... Anything real-time related seems to be cumbersome while working with the cloud imho
that's interesting then seeing as the Titanfall beta has players connections at an average ~15ms and lower...and those weren't even running on the official servers. So yeah it's probably even more possible than we think.
the average is 15ms or lower in the US??? Wow... If that's true, than yes it is plausible to do it. As I might correct you: I've never said it is not possible to do, I am just thinking the average joes connection isn't good enough.
Don't forget though, not every game is a twitch shooter. Something like Beyond: Two Souls would benefit from this type of approach. MS was talking about a hybrid approach, maybe handling less latency dependent items with the cloud, and everything else locally.
This is the approach a cloud is best used atm.
I can see the cloud being used...if they do ALL the rendering in the cloud (PS now *cough* *cough*)...having both the cloud AND console work together to create real time scenes is another story...i would have to see that to believe it.
You caught that cold bug that's been going around, too? But you're right, the only way this will work, is if it's like PS now. This sounds more like 'the power of the cloud', and more like 'the weakness of the xbox one'
no chance it would happen, they just put out more bs to fool those stupid ones, come out man, they think you xbots are stupid.
I thought they learned their lesson about lying. I mean real-time raytracing in the cloud? Doesn't even make sense, so then the XBox One isn't even a console at that point, it's just going to be like OnLive, offloading the games to a real machine, in which case, the ouya, or a $200 laptop could do the same thing. If they mean cloud computing could 'help' the xbox with raytracing, while some of the visuals are still processed locally, then maybe this could work over a google fiber connection in someone's elaborate dream
Actually, when the XB1 is described as just being a terminal for a better, stronger system, it sounds possible. Still doesn't begin to answer the necessities and requirements of bandwidth, but it still sounds like it might be possible.
I will believe it when I see it, but at the same time excited at the possibility. The only thing I am certain of is not one of us is qualified to determine whether this is possible or impossible.
how do you reboot something which only ever existed as concept and tech demo?
Less talk more action with the cloud, MS.
I can't see the cloud power for all the smoke and mirrors...
So what? Any networked grid of servers whit eg. linux could do that, but no one is so crazy to use for a MUST BE low latency game. Also ray tracing is a power cost, you can do something faster but you are using power and power costs money. As of this it is 100 % non usable technology in games, but m$ need to do their everyday PR BS, cuz ps4 dominate 1080p 60 fps and xTHEONEfail not.
Be afraid, very afraid